Talk:Sat Thai

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This is a low-key Buddhist holiday in Thailand that has been largely displaced by Thetsagarn Jeen, the Thai Chinese Buddhist version that begins on the same day; also called rêrm têt-sà-gaan gin-jày gâo (9) wan เริ่มเทศกาลกินเจ ๕ วัน, the beginning of a 9-day Vegetarian Festival observed by many Thai Chinese Buddhists. To avoid frequent changes to the main page, I'm working on it in my sandbox. Any editor is welcome to help out in either place. Vegetarian Festival also needs a complete overhaul. As now written, it identifies it as a Phuket festival, which is true as far as it goes, but it really goes all the way back to Chinese Buddhism, and has spread to Thai Chinese Buddhist communities everywhere. Pawyilee (talk) 09:18, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Copy from Pubilc Holidays in Thailand

Public holidays in Thailand was re-written by me to add introductory text before the plain table that was there before; tweak that table which basically was correct; and add a new topic, Other national observances. [Some] days on the new table need attention:

August Thetsagarn Sart.

August Thetsagarn Jeen.

Help! Pawyilee (talk) 09:43, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

From what I know, and comparing with the Thai Wikipedia:

...

• Thetsagarn Sart (RTGS Sat), is known as วันสารทไทย (Wan Sat Thai) to differentiate it from สารทจีน. I suggest moving the article to something with "Festival" or "Day" instead of "Thetsagarn" (e.g. Sart Festival).
• วันสารทจีน (RTGS Sat Chin) (in the 7th Chinese lunar month) corresponds to Ghost Festival, and is different from เทศกาลกินเจ (RTGS Kin Che; in the 9th Chinese lunar month), which has the articles Vegetarian Festival and Nine Emperor Gods Festival. I don't think the term "Thetsagarn Jeen" exists.... [Comments by Paul 012]

Thetsagarn Sart I started as a result of listing it here, but write now it's awful. Rather than making constant changes there, I'm playing with it in my sandbox.

Sart means autumnal or year, name of various plants, corn or fruit ripening in autumn, per link dug up for me by Doug Cooper (doug@th.net) of the Center for Research in Computational Linguistics, Bangkok.This site says the festival occurs " halfway through the year when the grain is in the ear and filled with milk เมื่อถึงกึ่งปีเป็นฤดูกาลที่ข้าวออกรวงเป็นน้ำนม. My Isan wife says the OIC is Phya Sart ไพญาสารท. She described how some rice can be harvested at this time, though it requires far more effort for far less yield than waiting until it's fully ripened and dried on the stalk (which might not happen if Phaya Taen doesn't cooperate). It is one of but not the only occasion to pay respect to Mother Rice บูชาแม่โพสพ ไ้น รห who is more like Mother Nature than the Greek goddess Ceres in that the Mothers apparently do not have iconic images, or cults.

Thetsagarn Sat using the RTGS Sat would work better than Sart Festival, as it neatly sidesteps the issue of whether it is singular or plural, and also avoids confusion with the unrelated Sart people. Too, an authorized agent for TAT (Tourist Authority of Thailand) refers to Sat Thai Period and Sat Thai Day in adding Phetchabun_Province#Um_Pra_Dam_Nam_festival (which, BTW, has some elements of the Ghost Festival you mentioned, as do other Thai articles I'm painfully) trying to decode). Avoiding singular Festival avoids implication that there is only one.

Sart festivals, plural, would require formatting the article so as to make room for same-same atumnal festivals in all Indianized countries, such as the Buddhist one in Bangladesh that I stumbled across but can't find write now.

"Thetsagarn Jeen" exists as a term and an observance, though perhaps you mean transliteration should be RTGS Chin instead of Jeen. Go ogle up Thai: เทศกาลสารทจีน and find this example.

"Thetsagarn Kin Che" (using RTGS transliteration of เทศกาลกินเจ) is related in that this 9-day observance begins on the same day as Sat Thai Day and Sat Chin Day (using TAT nomenclature). Vegetarian Festival as written implies it is only observed on Phuket, which is far from the case. Thai Chinese observance apparently did originate there, but Articles of Faith: Thailand’s Vegetarian Festival by Leslie Nevison is a far better account, including what it has to do with the Nine Emperor Gods Festival.... Pawyilee (talk) 10:29, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Proposed move

I still think the article would be better served by the title Sart Festival or Sat Festival, as per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). I am not sure, though, whether the sart spelling is well-established enough to override the RTGS transliteration. --Paul_012 ^(talk) 16:16, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't like the idea of combining Sanskrit/Pali for Autumnal with English Festival, and especially object to singular "Festival" because Thailand as no single festival to serve as an exemplar. Thetsagan Sat works for me as a blanket term for mid-autumn festivals in Thailand. An Etymology section can give origins of the title with alternate romanizations, which could then be redirected to the one title. The entry at Sart (disambiguation) could either be left as is, or changed to a new article title. Mid-Autumn Festival (disambiguation) needs an entry, too. The big problem is that the article as I started it does not make clear what a hodgepodge Thailand is, and its mid-autumnal festivals are, retaining as they do ancient animistic elements intermixed with Brahman, Buddhist, and Chinese folklore, and further influenced by modern immigrants. Leslie Nevison's Articles of Faith: Thailand’s Vegetarian Festival (linked above) is the best article I've seen to date, but she's a travel writer and doesn't give secondary sources. I'm stuck, and don't know how to proceed. Pawyilee (talk) 06:25, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

But thetsakan here is a loanword absorbed into the Thai language, and also is sat, to a lesser degree. If the term were Sanskrit, it would be Saradadesakala, which surely isn't the case. In referring to thetsakan sat, one is referring to a specific festival or group of festivals, which is or are collectively known as sat. Therefore, the use of the English term festival should be fine, as it is with Bon Festival, Cheung Chau Bun Festival, Dongzhi Festival, Duanwu Festival, Qingming Festival, etc, all combinations of festival with a non-English term.

What this article describes and the plurality of it is another issue. Since these festivals have different origins and practices, and share only the name, I think it would be better to serve each with separate articles, i.e. one for Sat Thai (which I still think should be served by a title like Sart Festival, Sart Thai Festival or Sart Thai Day) and one for Sat Chin (could be added as a section (e.g. Observance in Thailand) under Ghost Festival if there is not much to say). --Paul_012 ^(talk) 07:30, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Inaccuracies

The article's assertion that the Chinese and Thai Sart Days fall on the same date is incorrect, as Sat Chin (Ghost Festival) falls on the full moon, while Sat Thai falls on the new moon, usually one and a half months later. Sat Chin also doesn't correspond with the Vegetarian Festival, which takes place from the 1st to 9th days of the ninth Chinese month, and usually begins on the same date as Sat Thai Day. (I say usually because I understand that the Chinese and Thai calendars may not always correspond to the same month-differences.) --Paul_012 ^(talk) 07:30, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

I only asserted that because it's the way it appeared on a calendar. I live by Yasothon city, which has a strong Thai Chinese presence. The Lak Mueang is in a Chinese-style shrine, and I suspect Chinese sentiments may influence local printings of calendars. As to differences in calculating moon-cycle days, it is my understanding that Chinese everywhere use Purple Mountain Observatory calculations; I don't know what the Thai use, but they are in a different time zone. But all this is speculation on my part. If you want to take over the article, go ahead and move it to whatever title you think appropriate. Pawyilee (talk) 17:11, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Holiday Infobox

See Template_talk:Infobox_Holiday#Attributes_for_the_Template Holiday Infobox attributes and see User:Pawyilee/Sandbox for example. I'm not satisfied with it, which is why I've not put it in the article. For one, the infobox typically has a shot of typical foods, and I don't have a good one of my own. Pawyilee (talk) 10:40, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Holiday foods

The definitive desert is prepared for Thod Kathin, too: krayasart [ORID: กระยาสารท [-สาด] น. ขนมทําด้วยถั่วงาและข้าวเม่าข้าวตอกกวนกับ น้ำตาล แต่เดิมนิยมทําเฉพาะในเทศกาลสารท.] ข้าวเม่า is prepared from "grain in the ear" filled with milky starch that's not fully ripe (and is mildly alcoholic,) ข้าวตอก is popped rice. I don't know the significance of popped rice, ถั่ว legume or งา sesame, and don't know why ORID mentions น้ำตาล sugar and not นำ้้ผึ่ง honey. Honey is an essential ingredient that links both Thod Kathin and Thetsagan Sart to Madhu Purnima: The painting from Laos shows a monkey offering a honeycomb. But I don't know if krayasart is the same as, or just similar to, "angel rice" ข้าวทิพย์ [ORID: คำ ข้าวทิพย์ ค้นไม่เจอ โปรดพิมพ์ใหม่.] The deserts are offered to monks together with hands of bananas. Pawyilee (talk) 10:54, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Animist deities Maa Phosop & Phya Sart

Animist deities honored: Mother Rice Maa Phosop บูชาแม่โพสพ and Lord of Autumn Phya Sart พญาสารท. [ORID: แม่โพสพ น. เทพธิดาประจำข้าว, เจ้าแม่แห่งข้าว ; คำ พญาสารท ค้นไม่เจอ] Animism in Laos doesn't mention either of them. Pawyilee (talk) 11:52, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

New start

Okay, so this is a new start; so now, what about the holiday infobox sitting in my sandbox? Pawyilee (talk) 17:47, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

I added the infobox, but it is still lacking a suitable photo. (Better some info than none, I guess.) I don't think the rice photo is good for this, because according to this article by the National Culture Commission, although the festival likely originated as a harvest festival, borrowing the date from India, harvest season wouldn't have yet arrived in Thailand, especially not for rice (the reason krayasat is made of unripe rice). A photo of krayasat (or better still, the making of it) would be the optimum in my opinion. --Paul_012 ^(talk) 17:13, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

The picture is appropriate in that it shows the grain is in the ear; that is, unripe. (Anyone really familiar with the production of rice would know that from the picture; but I had to be told—by my wife.) It is inappropriate in that it is North American grain in the ear. Besides that, most other holiday info boxes show typical foods. There are a plenty of such at Thai sites on the festival, including its traditional preparation, but you know how that goes. Pawyilee (talk) 18:44, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

PS: This is specifically a pre-harvest festival, and that is the reason both kraysart and "angel rice" ข้าวทิพย์ are made from un-ripe grain. Everything has to be done just rite according to ancient custom for Phya Sart พญาสารท to bring Maa Phosop แม่โพสพ to fruition. Pawyilee (talk) 18:57, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Redundant article redirected here

Sat Duan Sip has been redirected here. Interested editors may want to peruse the article history for content that might be worth merging. --Paul_012 (talk) 16:25, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

(2024) Another version is now in the history of Sart Duan Sib. Much work is needed to turn it into something readable, but anyone interested should feel free to merge some of the rewritten content here. --Paul_012 (talk) 12:46, 24 October 2024 (UTC)