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North Korea as belligerent

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Noticing that there seems to be contention in the contribution history of this article about North Korea's involvement as a belligerent: https://www.kyivpost.com/post/34893

IMO Sending state-sanctioned foreign troops under a defense pact constitutes belligerency, not involvement as mercenaries. Cyali (talk) 19:59, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We should remember that it hasn't happened yet. Cinderella157 (talk) 22:27, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is the first time in over a decade that a foreign military besides Russia and Ukraine is putting boots on the ground. North Korea has stated its intent to deploy troops there. However, I can understand if users would rather wait until North Koreans are actually there. Dozens of countries have been providing weapons to both Russia and Ukraine for some time but this is the first time a military is being deployed to the fight, AFAIK. Ecrusized (talk) 10:18, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They would have to be involved in actual combat. Slatersteven (talk) 10:21, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please see article from NK News titled "Fact check: North Korea has not announced plans to send troops to Ukraine — yet" which traces the source of this information to a rumor on South Korean television, noting that no such announcement has been made by the North Korean government, and characterizes the Kyiv Post and others as having referenced an incorrect description of the deployment claims as an official North Korean announcement... without verifying the source of the rumors. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 20:39, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lute88, I note that you have now twice reverted to reinstate this material while the WP:ONUS to add this material to the infobox has not been met. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:36, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have re-removed the material. No nation should be listed as a de facto belligerent without RS explicitly identifying the party as a party to the conflict or co-belligerent. Whether support rises to such a level as to merit inclusion in the infobox under the support banner, however, is up to editorial discretion. It requires an explicit affirmative consensus at the talk page first though, as the use of the support parameter is broadly deprecated. Mr rnddude (talk) 07:08, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 June 2024

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Add North Korea to the belligerents list since they are sending troops. Chechen and Syria has also supplied troops so they should also be added. 2A00:801:7AA:8752:F004:AC6D:546E:2156 (talk) 21:16, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This has been contested and now requires consensus discussion which cannot be sought through an edit request. Mr rnddude (talk) 04:09, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Being discussed above. Slatersteven (talk) 10:06, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New proposal for listing Belarus

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In the Russian invasion of Ukraine infobox, Belarus is listed as "Supported by" with a note attached. I propose that, for the Russo-Ukrainian war article, we simply move this note to be attached to Russia instead of Belarus, looking something like:

 Russia [a]

This would only state the facts of how Belarus has supported the war, and wouldn't create any confusion over the duration of Belarusian support. Gödel2200 (talk) 14:53, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ Russian forces were permitted to stage part of the full-scale invasion in 2022 from Belarusian territory. Belarusian territory has also been used to launch missiles into Ukraine. See also: Belarusian involvement in the Russian invasion of Ukraine

Russian success, change in international order

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@Walter Tau, you add the success of Russia's "special military operation" against NATO-backed Ukraine manifests the end of the USA-lead unipolar "rules-based " international order [1] . I don't see the first source provided to refer to the war as such (a "special military operation"). I also haven't found yet where the source characterizes it as a success. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:20, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your contributions to the article. I've got most the cited text from here http://apir.iir.edu.ua/index.php/apmv/article/download/3885/3536. The "special military operation" (in quotation) is term used originally by Putin http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Special_military_operation .
The "success" is mentioned by 3rd parties here: One can argue, that some of these sites may be biased (BTW, the most biased news agency that I’ve heard personally is BBC- do you know what they say about the USA?), but you can’t argue , that all of them are:
https://www.iiss.org/online-analysis/military-balance/2024/03/what-russias-momentum-in-ukraine-means-for-the-war-in-2024/
https://www.news.com.au/world/europe/russia-is-winning-the-war-in-ukraine/news-story/10a5d440434ef6e365fb4c056c50085e
https://www.naturalnews. /2022-06-23-army-colonel-russia-already-won-over-ukraine.html
https://consortiumnews.com/2022/09/12/scott-ritter-why-russia-will-still-win-despite-ukraines-gains/
https://tfiglobalnews.com/2023/04/26/its-official-russia-wins-the-war-us-ready-to-pull-out-of-ukraine/
https://www.globalresearch. /russia-has-won-this-war-german-journalist-says-west-lying-about-ukraine-war/5784111
https://www.rt.com/russia/588937-russia-ukraine-preparing-winter-battles/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/21/barely-10-per-cent-of-europeans-believe-ukraine-can-defeat-russia-poll
https://www.russiamatters.org/news/russia-analytical-report/russia-analytical-report-jan-2-8-2024 Walter Tau (talk) 22:09, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, too. We shouldn't be constructing theses using words taken from multiple sources, it's WP:SYNTH. I also checked the first source - IISS - and it reports on the success at Avdiivka, not on the success of the war.
Wiki article also should not be using Putin's terms.
We also should not be using Russian propaganda outlets. Thank you! ManyAreasExpert (talk) 22:17, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have relatives in Kharkiv, who were killed in this war, when Putin's bomb hit their appartment building. I do not think, I have any inclination to advance Putin's propaganda.
Special military operation is an article on wikipedia, and I used it in quotation marks to underscore the hypocrisy of the term.
I tried to provide multiple references to prove the "success" point, that it is better for Ukraine to get a peace deal sooner than later. Putin's goal was to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO, and he got it, when the first Russian missile landed in Ukrainian territory. The cited experts state, that there is no other way for Ukraine and its allies to end this war. Walter Tau (talk) 04:11, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On 2024-07-14 Walter Tau wrote:

Several prominent political scientists pointed out, that the success of Russia's "special military operation" against NATO-backed Ukraine manifests the end of the USA-lead unipolar "rules-based " international order, and the official start of either multipolarity or of a new bipolar World based on the competion between the United States (with European Union and NATO) and China (with BRICS and Shanghai Cooperation Organization).

In a 2024 journal article political scientists from Ukraine's Kyiv National Taras Shevchenko University concluded, that "the [Russo-Ukrainian] conflict is over the future of international order", and that “the war is structurally shifting the global balance of power and speeds up the trends set earlier by the rise of China and deterioration of the American leadership"...

Along with other recent USA-NATO military failures (e.g. in Afghanistan and in Niger), "it has exposed the limits of the West's capabilities,... and underscored the dynamics of the 'the West versus the Rest' confrontation... <The> Western hegemony, while still influential, is no longer as overwhelming as it once was."[1] Similar conclusions were reached by other experts in different countries.[2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14]

  • Soon later user Asarlaí deleted this whole section, even though he did not question "the change in the International Order" and did not check the provided references. Youtube is in fact an admissible reference source for wikipedia : http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Wikipedia:Video_links . Besides youtube, I provided peer-reviewed journal articles.
  • In reply to ManyAreasExpert: I did not try to do WP:SYNTH. I cited a statement from a single reference [2], written by a Ukrainian political science professor. Other references are added to corroborate his conclusion.

I also suggest linking this explanation of Putin's goals http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/John_Mearsheimer/2014 Russian annexation of Crimea & 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Walter Tau (talk) 12:06, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You responded to arguments criticizing your addition with something unrelated. You enhanced your edit with some russian propaganda youtube and widely criticized Mearsmeier. Having not addressed the argument, it stays. Naturally, the new addition gets removed. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 12:30, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ 1. Kapitonenko M. HOW THE RUSSIAN-UKRAINIAN WAR IS TRANSFORMING INTERNATIONAL SYSTEM AND INTERNATIONAL ORDER. Actual Problems of International Relations. 2024(158):26-35 doi: 10.17721/apmv.2024.158.1.26-35. https://lens.org/025-485-652-303-425 ; http://apir.iir.edu.ua/index.php/apmv/article/download/3885/3536
  2. ^ SYSTEM AND INTERNATIONAL ORDER. Actual Problems of International Relations. 2024(158):26-35 doi: 10.17721/apmv.2024.158.1.26-35.
  3. ^ Taggart J, Abraham KJ. Norm dynamics in a post-hegemonic world: multistakeholder global governance and the end of liberal international order. Rev Int Polit Econ. 2024;31(1):354-81 doi: 10.1080/09692290.2023.2213441.
  4. ^ Seiwert E. China’s ‘New International Order’: The Shanghai Cooperation Organisation in Afghanistan and Syria. Eur Asia Stud. 2024 doi: 10.1080/09668136.2023.2289870.
  5. ^ Šćepanović J. Subversive Narratives and status-Seeking: A Look at Russia's Outreach to the Developing World After the Ukraine War *. Int J. 2024 doi: 10.1177/00207020241257630.
  6. ^ Polak PR. Long Live Article 2(4) of the UN Charter? Four Ways to Save the Peaceful Rules-Based International Order after Russia's Invasion of Ukraine. Nationalities Papers. 2024 doi: 10.1017/nps.2024.40.
  7. ^ Peter M. Global Fragmentation and Collective Security Instruments: Weakening the Liberal International Order From Within. Politics Gov. 2024;12 doi: 10.17645/pag.7357.
  8. ^ Nissen C, Dreyer J. From optimist to sceptical liberalism: reforging European Union foreign policy amid crises. Int Aff. 2024 doi: 10.1093/ia/iiae013.
  9. ^ Men J. The view from China: Perspectives on the West in the Xi Jinping era. The Transatlantic Community and China in the Age of Disruption: Partners, Competitors, Rivals: Taylor and Francis; 2024. p. 58-73 doi: 10.4324/9781003273936-5.
  10. ^ Jabur shayal PDA, Safih MJ. The impact of regional and international variables on the Russian-Ukrainian war 2022. The International and Political Journal. 2024(57):1-22 doi: 10.31272/ipj.i57.277.
  11. ^ Geis A, Schröder U. The Russian War Against Ukraine and Its Implications for the Future of Liberal Interventionism. Politics Gov. 2024;12 doi: 10.17645/pag.7348.
  12. ^ Carrión-Vivar KD, Jima-González A, Alcántara-Lizárraga JÁ. Between Tradition and Pragmatism: Challenges for Latin America amid the Russia–Ukraine War. Bull Lat Am Res. 2024 doi: 10.1111/blar.13571.
  13. ^ Winkler SC. The U.S.-Chinese Strategic Competition and the Ukraine War: Implications for Asian-Pacific Security. Czech J of Int Relat. 2023;58(1):45-76 doi: 10.32422/mv-cjir.153.
  14. ^ Schirm SA. Alternative World Orders? Russia’s Ukraine War and the Domestic Politics of the BRICS. Int Spect. 2023;58(3):55-73 doi: 10.1080/03932729.2023.2236937.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 July 2024

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The war hit Romani people

https://m.thewire.in/article/rights/how-russias-war-has-hit-ukraines-roma-people/amp 2600:6C50:7E00:316:A4A0:CC7B:8B87:890 (talk) 03:25, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 06:30, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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