Talk:Religion in Israel/Archive 3

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Archive 2

Archive 3

Should nonreligious Israelis be marked as religious?

Should nonreligious Israelis, in particular nonreligious Jews (including Jewish atheists and hilonim), be described as religious in this article? feminist (talk) 07:05, 7 February 2020 (UTC) Addendum: if you support listing Jewish (self-described) atheists and secular Jews separately, please specify that. feminist (talk) 02:20, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

• Question What precisely does you propose or contest? The talkpage is for specific issues relating to the article, not for general inquiries. All the more so if you open an Rfc. Debresser (talk) 14:54, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

  The issue is that the article appears to contradict itself regarding the figures of Jewish religion and atheism. If >70% of the Israeli population is Jewish, and >10% of Israeli Jews are irreligious, it is logically impossible for less than 5% of the Israeli population to be irreligious. The question is how we should present the data on this article in a way that would not appear to be self-contradictory, in light of these significant discrepancies. It may mean stating on this article that definitions of religiosity differ between sources. feminist (talk) 02:14, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

  • I see in the first graph that "Judaism (including Hiloni) (74.2%)". Where did you see the other two statements (that over 10% of the Jewish population are irreligious and that less than 5% of the total population are irreligious)? Debresser (talk) 18:14, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

    The "including Hiloni" part was something I added a few months ago as a band-aid fix regarding the problem I noted (see Special:Diff/900359948). The 2015 Gallup survey (mentioned in this article and sourced to Haaretz) says that 65% of Israelis are irreligious; yet, the pie chart at the top of the article, sourced to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, says that more than 95% of the Israeli population are affiliated to four religions. Put simply, the numbers don't add up, and we need to present them in a way that doesn't show such a conflict. feminist (talk) 03:17, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Feminist—Jewish atheism is not at all uncommon. There are religious Jews, non-religious Jews, and Jews at any point in the spectrum between religious and nonreligious. Common terminology includes "nonobservant" as well as "secular" to describe Jews that are not particularly religious. Jewish identity is not predicated on the beliefs that one may hold. Bus stop (talk) 18:55, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes I agree entirely, and the point I'm trying to drive is that we shouldn't combine Jewish atheists and religious Jews (and, to a lesser extent, those in between) in the figures we show in this article. As for those in between, we should either place them in a separate slice, combine them with Jewish atheists, combine them with religious Jews, or draw a line somewhere within the spectrum dividing who we consider to be religious or not. feminist (talk) 03:23, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Feminist—we don't draw lines unless they reflect reality. Yet you are saying we should "draw a line somewhere within the spectrum dividing who we consider to be religious or not". A Jew is a person who is either Jewish by birth or conversion. Notice the definition says nothing about whether a person is religious or not. You are saying "we shouldn't combine Jewish atheists and religious Jews". Why not? Bus stop (talk) 05:48, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Bus stop—I think what this article is talking about is being Jewish by religion not by nationality. The title/topic of this article is "Religion in Israel".--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 06:05, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

SharabSalam—you refer to Jewish by religion. What does Jewish by religion mean? Yes, The title/topic of this article is "Religion in Israel". And the definition of a Jew is a person who is either Jewish by birth or by conversion. Let us break that down for clarity's sake: Jewish by birth means that one or both parents are Jewish. Jewish by conversion means the person converted to Judaism. Bus stop (talk) 06:34, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Bus stop—okay, where did you get that definition from? A Jewish person could be someone who believe in Judaism not just Jewish by birth or by conversion. When a chart or any sort of statistics say let's say for example that 79% of the population of Israel is Jewish and the rest is Muslim, which Jewish identity the chart or the statistics are presenting here? The people who identify themselves as Jews by nationality or those who identify themselves as Jews by religion? I would say those who identify themselves as Jews by religion because the statistics or the chart include Muslims and Muslims are a religious group not a nation. So we are talking here about religious Jews or those Jews who believe in Judaism not the atheists or the irreligious Jews.-SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 06:59, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

SharabSalam—you say "A Jewish person could be someone who believe in Judaism not just Jewish by birth or by conversion." That is incorrect. "A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew". Bus stop (talk) 07:15, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Bus stop—thus this article should be blind to the proportion of Jews among Israeli people, and instead focus on the beliefs of people. feminist (talk) 08:52, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Feminist—why would we "focus on the beliefs of people" when "being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe"? You are saying "this article should be blind to the proportion of Jews among Israeli people, and instead focus on the beliefs of people". Bus stop (talk) 09:16, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Bus stop—This article is entitled "Religion in Israel". It should focus on religious belief, not the proportion of Israelis who are Jews. As you said, whether someone is a Jew or not has nothing to do with their religious belief. feminist (talk) 11:12, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

"As you said, whether someone is a Jew or not has nothing to do with their religious belief." Of course I said nothing of the sort. Bus stop (talk) 14:03, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

I quote, being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe. feminist (talk) 14:30, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Feminist—you can't say "As you said, whether someone is a Jew or not has nothing to do with their religious belief." I did not say "whether someone is a Jew or not has nothing to do with their religious belief". I find that incomprehensible and I said nothing remotely like that. Bus stop (talk) 17:51, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Bus stop: I'm not saying that the only option would be to "draw a line"; it's only one option out of the four I suggested. What I'm asserting is that because this is an article about religion, not ethnicity, the focus on this article should be on the proportion of Israelis who follow each religion, not the proportion of Israelis who are Jews (which, as you said, says nothing about religiosity). An Israeli atheist who is Jewish by birth is not religious, and should not be combined with Israeli people who follow the religion of Judaism. feminist (talk) 06:59, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

I also disagree. The pie chart at the top of the article is not about being religious. Jews or Arabs who are asked what they are will answer "Jew" or "Arab" even if they are not religious. Only after that comes the division into various degrees of religious or even irreligious. Debresser (talk) 12:09, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Also, that chart was incorrect. I had a look at the source, and changed the chart accordingly. The statistic wasn't about religion at all, rather about ethnicity. Debresser (talk) 12:17, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for correcting the chart, it's much appreciated. Perhaps we should remove the chart entirely from this article if it concerns ethnicity rather than religion? feminist (talk) 13:59, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

I think it is a good idea to start with this chart, to set the stage, so to speak. After all, the religious divisions are very much related to ethnicity. Debresser (talk) 21:04, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

I agree that something like the religious divisions are very much related to ethnicity should be added to the lead section to set the stage for the rest of the article. Now, you are clearly much more familiar with the topic than I am, so is there any reason why the chart cannot be replaced with something that focuses on religious divisions only? Would it be too hard to find a reliable source that talks about religious identity of Israeli people while being agnostic to their ethnicity? I can imagine that would be the case if all reliable surveys on religion in Israel split up their figures between people of different ethnic groups in Israel. Alternatively, would it be a good idea to have two separate pie charts, one for Jews and one for Arabs? feminist (talk) 02:07, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

I think you make good suggestions. I'd keep the chart and add some explanation. Having two charts, one for Jews and one for Arabs, also makes a lot of sense, IMHO. Debresser (talk) 13:40, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I don't know what either of you are talking about. What changes are being contemplated? There is a call for "a more detailed explanation...to the article". I am finding this thread frustratingly vague. Can we please be a bit more explicit? Bus stop (talk) 18:35, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

• No. This article currently mentions that 74.2% of Israelis are religiously (but not necessarily ethnically) Jewish, but it also mentions that 65% of Israelis are irreligious based on a Gallup survey. This means this article contradicts itself: it is logically impossible for both irreligious people and adherents to a specific religion to comprise a majority of the population in a country. Being ethnically Jewish doesn't mean a person is religiously Jewish, and the article fails to make this distinction clear. By presenting a large majority of the population as religiously Jewish, this article in its current state does not adequately distinguish between Israeli Jews who are nonreligious and Israeli Jews who adhere to the Jewish faith (or other faiths). People who identify as nonreligious should not be marked as religious, whether they identify as part of an ethnic group or not. If a majority (or significant segment) of the Israeli population identifies as nonreligious, this article should treat them as nonreligious rather than religious.

This appears to be a longstanding issue, first raised on this talk page in 2005, and which hasn't been resolved since. A large part of this appears to stem from conflating Jewish ethnicity with Jewish religiosity. As an article about religion in Israel, this article should focus on statistics on adherence to religion, not ethnicity. Figures on ethnic groups in Israel should instead be included on Demographics of Israel. The figures on religious affiliation in Israel should focus on religion among citizens of Israel, while being blind to ethnicity; for example, atheist Palestinian citizens of Israel and atheist Israeli Jews should all be treated as atheists. No matter what the combined population is, it should certainly exceed the 4.4% figure we currently have in this article. feminist (talk) 07:05, 7 February 2020 (UTC) – Striking because I perhaps didn't fully appreciate the nuances involved in this topic before starting this discussion. feminist (talk) 05:17, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

• Comment the figure that says that 74% of Israelis are Jewish is based on an official report while the one about atheists is based on a servay made by an American organization. AFAIK, servays are based on a random sample of the population not the whole population. The official report seems to be based on a census. This RfC seems unneutral and misleading because it is favouring the servay source over the official source.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 08:01, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
  • A bar chart in the Secular-traditional spectrum section of this article states that 67% of Israeli Jews are secular, and the data is sourced to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, a government source. Should this article treat secular Jews as religiously Jewish? feminist (talk) 12:10, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
• Comment I think that the framing of this RfC needs to be refined a bit. I would support counting self-described atheists separate from the religiously Jewish category. However, secular and hiloni are nebulous categories, and I would oppose trying to differentiate between the demographic self-identifying as secular and either the atheist or religious demographic. "Non-religious" may or may not be subjective depending on the how the source cited frames it. In some cases, it may be appropriate to collect nonreligious into the same category as atheist; in others, it remains ambiguous. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 00:06, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

I too feel that this should not be an Rfc. The editor should simply have raised the question as a talkpage section. Debresser (talk) 18:14, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

• Thanks for your explanation. I now recognize the problem with conflating Jewish atheists and secular Jews, and I've added a clarification to my question posed in the RfC. If it's the case that "non-religious/secular/hiloni" are vague terms where the definition may differ between different WP:RS, perhaps we should add a more detailed explanation of this to the article, saying that their religiosity remains ambiguous despite making up a significant portion of the population (or something along these lines). It may mean presenting different sets of data equally, noting the caveats of each, e.g. how it may be uncommon for Jewish atheists to legally change their religious affiliation to "unaffiliated" [1] thus skewing official statistics. feminist (talk) 02:35, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

I think that presenting multiple data sets separately is likely the way to go. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 02:58, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 March 2020

Change "Arab(inculding Christian, muslim and Druze)" in the graph to 17.8% Muslim, 2.0% Christian and 4.1% other, the current graph shows ethnic groups and not religious ones Սամուէլ (talk) 14:18, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Սամուէլ—the above indication is Muslim 14%, Christian, 2%, Druze 2%, or is the above incorrect? These numbers should be somewhat correct and based on sources, including the percentage in the "other" category. Bus stop (talk) 14:36, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

 Not done See pie chart section above that this issue is part of a large discussion. Debresser (talk) 15:15, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Spelling

I would like to draw attention to inconsistent spellings, but more obviously a term that is inconsistent with users. In the third paragraph of the article is the term "Baha'iism" which is not used by members of the Bahá'í Faith. I wanted to change it to: Bahá'í Faith, but could not.

Elsewhere the name of the religion is spelled with and without diacriticals. Bahá'ís prefer the diacriticals to be used. I wanted to add the diacriticals, but could not. Thank you.

2600:1700:7DF0:7D10:34B4:4A4:E7AA:844C (talk) 04:27, 9 June 2020 (UTC)dlherrmann

Hebrew spelling

I would like to add the Hebrew spelling of some words so that bilingual readers of Hebrew and English would have an easier time comprehending the English on this page. For example the word Dati should include (Hebrew: דתי) next to it for additional clarification. Thank you. Akiva100 (talk) 19:48, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 July 2020

Hebrew spelling

I would like to add the Hebrew spelling of some words so that bilingual readers of Hebrew and English would have an easier time comprehending the English on this page.

Dati (Hebrew: דתי) 

Please put that next to the word dati in the article for for additional clarification.

Thank you. Akiva100 (talk) 19:51, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

 Unnecessary Thank you for your submission. Unfortunately, it is not custom that the English Wikipedia would translate words from English to other languages except in the case of names. Again, this is the English Wikipedia, not the Hebrew Wikipedia. Thanks, P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 17:43, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

@P,TO 19104: I agree with you general, but maybe there are exceptions. In this case, "Dati" is actually a Hebrew word so writing it in Hebrew letters too is not translation but rather noting its origin. Zero^talk 07:19, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Y @Zero0000: Added a section that noted the origin of these words. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 12:35, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

RfC: Pie chart

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is a narrow margin for converting the pie chart to the "Pew" version listed below. Primefac (talk) 17:09, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

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Proposal to remove the pie chart in the opening section of the article because it is confusing and does not properly reflect beliefs of secular and/or Atheist Jewish Israelis. (One can oppose by voting Keep): 11:01, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

• Remove IZAK (talk) 20:51, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
• Keep as I argued above. It makes sense to set the stage by showing how many Jews, Arabs and others live in Israel, before going into detail about each of those groups. Debresser (talk) 21:33, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

Valid point, however "how many Jews live in Israel" does not in any way indicate if they are religious or not. And as we know about half of Israeli Jews are Chiloni (secular) with a good chunk being Sonei Das (haters of religion), a left-over from the days of religion-hating Bolshevism. The pie should therefore clarify numbers of Jews and not refer to their "religion" (since many don't have any really) or the non-existent "Judaism" of so many. IZAK (talk) 02:01, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if a person is religious or not. I mean, it may matter to IZAK or Debresser. But that would be original research. The question is whether a person has renounced their identity as a Jew. If a Jewish person has not said "I am not a Jew" then they are religious, albeit to a limited extent. We don't engage in original research at Wikipedia. At Wikipedia we don't deem Jews who light candles, attend synagogue, and daven—as being religious. And Jews who eat pork and drive on Shabbos—as being not religious. You are all involved in "drawing lines". Feminist writes "As for those in between, we should either place them in a separate slice, combine them with Jewish atheists, combine them with religious Jews, or draw a line somewhere within the spectrum dividing who we consider to be religious or not." No, we should do nothing of the sort. Reliable sources either assert something or do not assert something. Do we have reliable sources telling us a percentage of Jews considered religious and a percentage of Jews considered nonreligious? Stating those percentages, with attribution to the specific source, may be acceptable. But this isn't "The Jewish Religion 101" as presented to you by a few Wikipedia editors. It would be impractical to get any meaningful information breaking down any Jewish population into those that are religious, those that are not religious, and those that are semi-religious, but I'm sure some reliable sources would attempt to do just that. With attribution we can present the findings of such sources. Such "information" is highly subjective and subject to being skewed by editorializing inherent in a given source's political leanings. Therefore we should treat such "information" skeptically and only with attribution. Bus stop (talk) 03:42, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

@Bus stop: It is not OR to state that secular (chiloni) Israelis are secular (chiloni). The numbers on the pie are too sweeping and you do not wait for someone to say "I am not a Jew" to deem them to be secular. If anything, saying "I am not a Jew" borders on Apostasy in Judaism. IZAK (talk) 19:25, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

IZAK—many Jews are for instance not Shomer Shabbos but go to synagogue on Yom Kippur. Many Jews serve food that is not kosher at Bar Mitzvah celebrations. Many Jews are not particularly religious but have annual Passover meals including matzoh and Manischewitz. No source can be realistically expected to evaluate all factors to determine if these people are "religious" or not. I have my opinions and every other individual has their opinions about such things. I am considering such opinions tantamount to original research if we try to build such opinions into the article. As for the pie chart, it was not my primary concern in my participation in the "Should nonreligious Israelis be marked as religious" section of this page. I am opposed to the subtle distinctions that would be called for in order to distinguish between religious and nonreligious Israelis—or any other population of Jews for that matter. But the pie chart I don't find particularly problematic. It merely estimates percentages of Jews, Arabs, and "other". I don't feel strongly one way or the other about the pie chart currently in the article, but ultimately I don't find it problematic. Bus stop (talk) 20:21, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

@Bus stop: You are only partially right, but you cannot deny that a vast group of Israelis vehemently oppose being labelled as "religious/dati/charedi/mesorati" in any way shape size or form. Israel's Jews are a large enough group in our times to break them down into component elements of religiosity or anti-religiosity or non-religiosity. Don't be nervous, nothing "bad" will come out of being objective. It is a dream and fallacy to call most of Israel's Jews "religious" when in fact anywhere from 250,000 to 1,000,000 of so-called called Israeli Jews are non-Halachic Jews mostly from the former Soviet Union and to call them "religious" is a joke and an insult to intelligence. IZAK (talk) 23:05, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

IZAK—the article already says "In 2007, a poll by the Israeli Democracy Institute found that 27% of Israeli Jews say that they keep the Sabbath, while 53% said they do not keep it at all". I think that should be sufficient. Bus stop (talk) 01:03, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

• Remove; I think having this singular pie chart on top of this article would inevitably cause readers to make comparisons with other "Religion in [foo]" articles without appreciating the nuances of the term "religion" in its Israeli context. I can support having multiple charts if the information is verifiable. feminist (talk) 05:15, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Replace with the #Pew chart below, which resolves my concern. feminist (talk) 06:13, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
• Remove I think that Bus stop has already made an excellent argument about the pitfalls of OR in this specific situation. We have information about various different measurements of religious identity in the context of Israel, and this can be expressed in prose in the article. We do not, at least at this time, appear to have a reliable-source-approved way of condensing all of this information into a pie chart that we can place in infobox position. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 05:31, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
• Keep. I think the chart should be kept. It gives a rough approximation of identities by proportion. It is produced by the "Israel Central Bureau of Statistics" which sounds fairly official to me, but in all honesty I don't know what it is about. The pie chart is not involved in the breaking down of identities by level of religiosity. In this respect it is non-problematic. Bus stop (talk) 15:28, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
• I'm making this an RfC because participation has stagnated here. feminist (talk) 11:01, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
• Remove - clearly misleading to use an ethnicity pie chart as a lead image on religion page.--Staberinde (talk) 17:04, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Of course the pie-chart is not an "ethnicity pie chart", Staberinde. Bus stop (talk) 22:45, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Well, it is not a religion pie chart either, as it just happens that "Arab" is not a religion. The third option left is this being just meaningless nonsense.--Staberinde (talk) 19:36, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

It is a chart showing identities. Those identities correlate to religions. Are those correlations exact? Probably not. That Arab is not a religion is not particularly problematic because included in Arabs are "Muslims, Christians and Druze. Bus stop (talk) 20:44, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

There are Arab Christians, Arab Jews etc. Not all Arabs are muslims.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 20:50, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

As I said, the correlations are not exact. Bus stop (talk) 21:02, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

• Remove Replace with another one about religion. I will propose one. unless it become only about religion. I agree, Its the current one is misleading. Its mixing ethnicities with religion.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 20:33, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

You say "unless it become only about religion". What does that mean? Can you clarify? What would a pie chart look like if it were "only about religion"? Bus stop (talk) 20:44, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Is this really unclear?--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 20:50, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

SharabSalam—if it were "only about religion", what would it show? I'm sorry this is such a difficult question. Clearly we are not going to delve into the personal lives of people. All an article like this can do is break populations down into rough approximations of religious affiliations. Bus stop (talk) 21:02, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Bus stop, It's not a difficult question!. If it's about religion then it should say something like, 23% Islam — 30% Hinduism — 20% Judaism — 12% Baha'i faith etc.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 21:56, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

• Replace with a chart that is actually about religion, not ethnicity. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:58, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Finnusertop—if you are saying the current chart is primarily about ethnicity, I disagree—it is about ethnicity, identity, and religion. Bus stop (talk) 20:29, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

It should be only about religion though.-SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 00:24, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

I agree with SharabSalam. Only a chart that is exclusively about religion is lead-worthy. Other aspects such as ethnicity and identity and their relation to religion should be covered, of course, but not by the topmost chart in the lead that is supposed to give an at-a-glance picture about the distribution of different religions in Israel. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:42, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

• Remove per the arguments above. I can't find an official source that gives us the amount of Jews, Muslims and Druze. Israeli caucus gives the percentage of national/ethnic groups not religious groups.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 01:37, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
• Replace with this chart. I think we need a chart, we have a chart in almost all of "Religion in 'countery'" articles. We don't go with speculation, we go with what reliable sources say.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 19:01, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

SharabSalam—you say "we have a chart in almost all of "Religion in 'countery'" articles". In fact no other "Religion in country" article singles out one of several religions to break down that religious group for percentage religious and percentage not religious. It can be done at this, the Religion in Israel article, but only in the proper section, the Judaism section, and only while properly enumerating the religious groups pertaining to Judaism according to reliable sources—Hiloni, Masorti, Dati, and Haredi. Bus stop (talk) 05:35, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Bus stop, how about Religion in Australia? Just a random example. Only Christians are divided.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 05:41, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

How do you figure that the Religion in Australia article distinguishes between religious and nonreligious Christians, SharabSalam? Bus stop (talk) 06:07, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

• Replace with either of the 2016 Pew charts. In an article about religion in Israel, the chart should actually show religious affiliation, rather than ethnic affiliation. Lumping Secular Jews in with Judaism clearly minimizes the former group, falsely giving the impression that there are more people practicing Judaism than in reality. I agree with the arguments made by SharabSalam, feminist, and Finnusertop. The current situation which minimizes a huge proportion of Israelis is unacceptable. BirdValiant (talk) 19:47, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

A chart that is about religion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Religion in Israel in 2019

  Judaism (74.2%)

  Islam (17.8%)

  Christianity (2.0%)

  Druzism (1.6%)

  Others (including Samaritanism, Baha'iism, and irreligious people) (4.4%)

References

I looked into what the article is saying the source is saying and here is what I found. Who support this pie chart?--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 22:22, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

• Staberinde I think this addresses your concerns?-SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 22:26, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

  This brings us back to square one, where individuals who are nationally classified as Jews but who profess atheism are lumped in with the Jewish population that does consider themselves to practice the religion. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 00:35, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

  When the official caucus source says the number of people who identify as Jews we say what the source is saying. However, I cant verify what the source is saying because it isnt in English and I got the numbers from what this article says the source is saying.

  This reminds me when some editors wanted to remove the religion parameter because they say people identify as Christians but they most likely dont believe in God, they are cultural Christians.[2]

  I wouldnt go with speculations, I would go with what the official caucus source is saying.-SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 00:56, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

  I can read Hebrew: that source says 74.2% Jews, 20.9% Arabs, 4.8% other. The inclusion of the categories "Jew" and "Arab" side by side suggests that this is a national/ethnic survey, not a religious one.

  We also have have other reliable sources establishing that a non-trivial portion of Israelis are convinced atheists. There isn't enough information in that source alone to create a new chart (especially since the source doesn't really attempt to answer the question of where to draw the line between "secular, but still Jewish religiously" and "not identifying as part of the Jewish religion"), but there is enough information to establish that we shouldn't be listing the religiously Jewish population as being the size of the entire ethnically Jewish population _signed, Rosguill ^talk 01:15, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

  Since the source actually says "Arab", I am archiving this. I based my numbers from what this article says.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 01:33, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Chart based on CIA World Factbook

Religion in Israel (2020)

  Judaism (74.3%)

  Islam (17.8%)

  Christianity (1.9%)

  Druzism (1.6%)

  Others (4.4%)

References

@SharabSalam and Rosguill: How about something like this? It doesn't have to be based on an official census. It has to be based on reliable sources. We don't do speculation; reliable sources do what they are supposed to: reliable estimates. This source is reliable and explicitly about religion. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:52, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Finnusertop, I support this one.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 19:01, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Finnusertop, I don't think this resolves the issue originally raised by feminist, namely that we have RS asserting that some percentage of the ethnically-Jewish population is not religiously Jewish. The statistic reported here for the Jewish population is identical to the ethnic percentage. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 20:07, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. Per Rosguill. feminist (talk) 06:11, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Pew

Religion in Israel (2016)

  Judaism (Masorti, Dati and Haredi) (41%)

  Secular Jews (40%)

  Islam (14%)

  Christianity (2%)

  Druzism (2%)

  Others and no religion (1%)

References

@SharabSalam and Rosguill: what about this? – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:38, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Pinging @Feminist – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:47, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Finnusertop, I think that graph addresses my main concern. My only remaining concern would be to check if there is disagreement between RS as to the breakdown of these demographic groups. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:33, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Why is this graph only distinguishing between religious Jews and non-religious Jews? Shouldn't it also be distinguishing between religious Muslims and non-religious Muslims? Shouldn't it also be distinguishing between religious Christians and non-religious Christians? Shouldn't it also be distinguishing between religious Druze and non-religious Druze? Bus stop (talk) 19:25, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

@Bus stop: because that's how the source distinguishes them, and we should follow distinctions made in reliable sources. In the Israeli context, Secular Judaism (Hiloni) is a major religious category. "Non-religious Muslim/Christian/Druze" is not; that's why it wasn't polled. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:04, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

If you don't have sufficient information for the special sort of graph that you would like to make then don't attempt to make that special sort of graph. The graph should not be subjecting Jews to special scrutiny. Bus stop (talk) 20:48, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Huh? It's the source that makes this distinction for Jews and not others, not me. They are the experts who know what distinctions are most relevant. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 21:47, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

The distinction might be relevant but it would not only be relevant for Jews, would it? Bus stop (talk) 22:42, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

• Support with the caveat that the chart should say (2014–2015) instead of (2016) because the source says the results were conducted during that period. Thanks for taking the time to locate this. It resolves my concern with considering all ethnic Jews as religious. I'm not seeing much concern with not further subdividing Muslims and Christians (such as by making Sunni/Shia or Protestant/Catholic distinctions). Firstly that would be WP:SYNTH; secondly neither Christians nor Muslims can be considered ethnic groups. feminist (talk) 06:11, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Feminist—you say "neither Christians nor Muslims can be considered ethnic groups". Why would Jews be an ethnic group but not Christians and Muslims? Bus stop (talk) 17:28, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

I don't even have to respond to your question. feminist (talk) 17:31, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

You are mentioning Sunni and Shia, and Protestant and Catholic. Does this have anything to do with the subject we are discussing, Feminist? I think it is completely off-topic. You are concerned that some Jews are more religious and some Jews are less religious. Correct me if I am wrong about that. Sunni are neither more religious nor less religious than Shia, and Protestants are neither more religious nor less religious than Catholics. There are more religious people and less religious people among Muslims, Christians, and Jews. Bus stop (talk) 17:55, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Alright, I'll bite. Jews and Arabs are the two predominant ethnic groups in Israel. Both Jews and Arabs are subject to the same level of scrutiny in the pie chart. Jews are divided into those who follow Judaism and secular Jews; Arabs are divided into those who follow Christianity and those who follow Islam. feminist (talk) 18:20, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Feminist—you are arguing to divide the total Jewish population into those who are more religious and those who are less religious. But we find more religious and less religious people among any grouping of a religious nature—be it Christians, Muslims, or Jews. Furthermore Arabs can be Muslim, Christian, Druze, or Baháʼí. Jews can only be Jews. Jews cannot be Christian and Jews cannot be Muslim. The religion of the Jews is Judaism. It is practiced to varying degrees among Jews. This is not dissimilar from the varying levels of religiosity found among Muslims and Christians. Bus stop (talk) 18:48, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Jews can only be Jews––except that they can also be atheists, as identified by the Haaretz piece above, and other RS like the Pew survey indicate that it's pertinent to identify religious divisions within the Jewish population of Israel. As a side note, I'd be curious as to how individuals like Mordechai Vanunu are classified in Israeli censuses; here we have an Israeli Jew who converted to Christianity, but who at least in the eyes of the Mossad is still a Jew. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 19:27, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

In the Pew study, everyone, including Jews, had the option to choose "other / no religion". Very few did. The Secular Jews category stands out very prominently in its place for those Jews who identity as less-than-religious. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:17, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Finnusertop—is it your intention that the graph that you are suggesting be placed near the top of this article? And another question—do you have sources for the levels of religiosity among Muslims and Christians and Druze in Israel? I assume not, because you have not presented any. There is nothing wrong with the source. But it has to be used properly. You have not followed the source. The source breaks down Jews into 4 segments of the "pie"—Hiloni, Masorti, Dati, and Haredi. You have not done that. And you have no sources for comparable information pertaining to Muslims and Christians and Druze. The chart that you are suggesting makes no sense for placement near the top of this article. This article is not titled "Spirituality of Jews in Israel" or some such name. It is "Religion in Israel". A properly constructed chart—including segments for Hiloni, Masorti, Dati, and Haredi—could conceivably be placed in the Religion in Israel#Judaism section. Bus stop (talk) 04:30, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Bus stop here. I oppose a chart that shows only Hiloni separate from the other three. The source divides Jews into Hiloni, Masorti, Dati and Haredi, and so should we. Debresser (talk) 09:24, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Religion in Israel (2016)

  Haredi Judaism (8%)

  Dati Judaism (10%)

  Masorti Judaism (23%)

  Secular Jews (40%)

  Islam (14%)

  Christianity (2%)

  Druzism (2%)

  Others and no religion (1%)

OK, how's this then? feminist (talk) 10:47, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

You made a few deviations from the source material that I find unacceptable, Feminist. The source does not say "Haredi Judaism". It says "Haredi". The source does not say "Dati Judaism". It says "Dati". The source does not say "Masorti Judaism". It says "Masorti". The source does not say "Secular Jews". It says "Hiloni". With those adjustments I think this pie-chart can go into the Judaism section of this article. Bus stop (talk) 11:18, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Stop. You have made your point clear enough, and your endless WP:BLUDGEONing is testing my patience. I should have realized earlier that you will not support anything at the top of the article that attempts to split out secular Jews from those who are religious. Also, it's clear that this discussion is concerned with a replacement for the pie chart at the top of the article, not to a potential pie chart in a subsection. I'm sorry if I have hurt your feelings.

For the record: I support Finnusertop's chart based on the Pew source over the one I proposed, which I support as a second choice. Both Finnusertop and Rosguill have pointed out that secular Jews stand out particularly compared to other categories for Jews, and is most relevant in an article about religion and religions in a country. feminist (talk) 13:42, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

No reason to get personal. Bus stop made a very to the point point. Just change to "Haredi", "Dati", "Masorti" and "Hiloni", and that's all. Debresser (talk) 14:21, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm OK with such a change, but not with placing this under Judaism while leaving the current chart (or any chart that does not separate out secular Jews) intact in the lead section. The Pew source does say "Secular" for Hiloni, and I'd imagine "secular" is a much more common term than "hiloni" among English-language readers. feminist (talk) 15:17, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

I think that we should use "Hiloni", since all the other terms are also in Hebrew.

This chart should be in the lead section. After all, it has Christians and Arabs, so how could it fit in the Judaism section? Debresser (talk) 15:58, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

I will support an arrangement that reads "Hiloni (Secular Jews)", but a counter-argument to such usage is WP:UE. feminist (talk) 17:12, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Just like all three other terms are not explained, likewise "Hiloni" shouldn't be explained. The Wikipedia article is at Hiloni and in the chart it will be linked, so per standing policy we don't need to explain the term any further. Am I detecting vibes of a POV-reason here? Debresser (talk) 17:30, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

References

To clarify the source: The survey asked people, "What is your current religion, if any?". The subcategories of Haredi, Dati, Masorti, and Hiloni are from those who answered "Judaism". --Yair rand (talk) 19:36, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post-close

@Rosguill:, @Finnusertop:. Though the discussion is closed, I noticed the rather weird linking of "Masorti" to Conservative Judaism, and was drawn here, though I do mostly refrain from editing on this wikipedia. Several comments are necessary: Hilonim are a rather strange group by Western standards. See Irreligion in Israel. They include everyone who isn't thoroughly observant, and the demographic borderline with the "Masortim" is very porous. A considerable number, some 25%, are fanatically religiouss. Roughly 20% (9% of all Jewish Israelis) are indeed atheists, out of 40% who don't believe in God. There are also Hilonim who identify specifically with Reform and Conservative Judaism. A large group (estimated at 10% of all Jews in Charles Liebman, Judaism and Jewishness in the Jewish State, p. 16; that is, about a quarter of the Hilonim) wholly eschews Jewish identity, and regards itself as Israeli and not Jewish. Anyway, to quote Yaacov Yadgar (Israel's Jewish Identity Crisis: State and Politics in the Middle East, p. 71), "Hiloni" is a problematic, both linguistically and practically, translation of "secular". Other scholars made the same point. Likewise, the comments above claiming they are "nationally" but not "religiously" Jewish, are quite ill-founded. Religion is strongly embedded in Israeli national identity, as Yadgar's book heavily dwells upon. Anyway, I'd recommend rendering Hiloni as such, and not as "secular"; and also, either all the four different Jewish sub-groups should be represented on the pie chart, as in the PEW chart, or have only one for all togehter. Separating the Hilonim from the rest is problematic. AddMore-III (talk) 21:44, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Given that the Pew source consistently breaks down the categories as Hiloni, Masorti, Dati and Haredi I think that splitting out the categories that way ourselves would be appropriate. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 01:19, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

@AddMore-III: I agree with Rosguill, the link should go to Hiloni, because that's what the source says. However, it was my mistake to make it a piped link in the proposal that reads "Secular Jews", because that can be understood in the wider sense (and we have a separate article for that topic: Jewish secularism). It should say "Hiloni" or "Hiloni (Secular Jews)". Many pointed this out in the discussion, but it was closed with the option that says "Secular Jews". This should be fixed now. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 06:55, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

BTW, "secular Jews" is a vague term that may apply to anything, Jewish secularism is in a bad shape today, and the Hiloni are a tribe unto themselves. AddMore-III (talk) 09:38, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Israel explicitly a religiously Jewish state?

The assertion that Israeli is religiously a Jewish state, in addition to ethnically, is incorrect. Israel has no official religion. Rather, it defines itself as the national home of the Jewish people. Israel's criteria for Jewish identity for the purposes of immigration differs from Jewish law and has nothing to do with religious beliefs. See link below. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/talking/11_Democracy.html

Page not found🤔 Nlivataye (talk) 12:10, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 July 2021

Karaite Judaism is also accepted in Israel. Being governored by the Council of Sages which supervises weddings, funerals, conversions, etc. 2600:1011:B12D:5079:0:54:95C0:2C01 (talk) 04:18, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Not done yet. Please provide a reliable source. Zero^talk 08:32, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:08, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

The article "religion in Israel" in misleading

As someone who lives in Israel, the article present misinformation stating 1% is non-religious. I think, after watching other talks, that the authors of the article are confused between Jewish as ethnicity and Jewish as a religion. If someone says he is a jew that does not necessarily mean he is religious for the same reason someone says he is a Chinese does not necessarily mean he is religious. The word jew is ambiguous, I was in a school where being non-religious was the default and everyone would say they are Jewish because of their parent's ethnicity, not their beliefs.

I believe it is supposed to be ~20% non-religious and ~9% atheists live in Israel (this from some statistics I saw but you can research it further). I can confirm there is a lot of non-religious people in Israel from my experience and is probably higher than 20% now, but 1% is just impossible and presenting misinformation.

Thank you, an atheist Jew who lives in Israel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Itay Levi (talk • contribs) 14:07, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

If you have reliable sources WP:RS to support your claim, go ahead and edit the article.Serv181920 (talk) 16:31, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Itay Levi, the Pie chart you referred claims that 1% are Unclasiffied (What you call חסר דת). As to being Jewish, it is indeed ambiguous, one might say nearing meaninglessness, outside Israel; within your state, it is a matter not of self-definition but of official registration as a member of the Jewish millet. AddMore-III (talk) 11:26, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

The problem is that it is under "religion in Israel" and does not represent the religion in Israel. My point is that it misleads people who enter the page and they do not know that it represents the ethnic Jewish group. If the data there is going to be mention, it should be in a non-central location and there need to be a clarification to the unrealistic match between the Jewish ethnic group % and the Jewish religious group % which does not give the correct picture of the religion in Israel. Itay Levi (talk) 19:25, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

The fact that your state does not allow you not to profess a religion (you'll have to petition a court to be registered as "unclassified") is not our fault. In Israel, being Jewish, legally, is not "being a member of an ethnic group" but being member of a rabbinate-controlled millet. Even subjectively, hardly anyone states "none" when asked what is their religion, and what they usually reply is that they are hiloni, whatever that means. If you're troubled by that, you need to change reality, not wikipedia articles which reflect reality. AddMore-III (talk) 10:40, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

1. "The fact that your state does not allow you not to profess a religion (you'll have to petition a court to be registered as "unclassified") is not our fault." but it is your fault saying that 99% of the population in Israel are religious. If China would say that its population is 99% religious without letting people be with no religion, that does not mean that 99% of its population is religious. 2."Even subjectively, hardly anyone states "none" when asked what is their religion" How do you know that? 3. "wikipedia articles which reflect reality", 1% people with no religion is not reality considering how much would consider themself as atheists here, let alone with no religion. This is far from reality and this unrealistic results should be in a non-central location and with an explanation if it should even be included as it has nothing to do with the religion in Israel but rather the controlled and distorted attribution of the state. Itay Levi (talk) 12:51, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

In the references of the pie chart it says: "one-in-five do not believe in God". I refuse to believe that you really think that 20% do not believe in God but 99% of them are part of monotheistic religion which monotheistic by definition is: "relating to or characterized by the belief that there is only one God.". Itay Levi (talk) 13:15, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

According to the most recent in-depth survey, 33% of Anglicans do not believe in God (most of them are agnostic, the rest are doubters or atheists). But they answered "Anglican", not "none", when asked what's their religion, and are therefore classified as such. When the PEW respondents replied to the question "what is your religion?", they almost all answered "(something) Jew." The PEW researchers who made the chart we put here are more knowledgeable than you are about the sociology of religion in Israel than yourself. AddMore-III (talk) 18:58, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Okay, I understand what you are saying. In the references of the pie chart, it also says: "while secular Jews tend to say it is mainly a matter of ancestry and/or culture.". So, in my opinion, it should be noted in the data to avoid misleading people who will see that it says "Judaism" and might not know that it is not only the actual monotheistic religion which is what it is defined by everywhere. Defining someone as religious based on ancestry and/or culture is not obvious and definitely not an accepted definition to religion, the main reason it is not obvious is that you can be anti-religious yet still be considered religious based on this unaccepted criteria, especially ancestry as in here religion is not even a choice. Itay Levi (talk) 08:16, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

In fact, basing religion on ancestry and/or culture means you can convert to Islam and believe in the Quran and the prophet Muhammad yet still be considered in Judaism. Itay Levi (talk) 08:22, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

The citation of the Gallup poll (2015) is misleading. It should be linked to the poll itself, rather than an article in Haretz, but the article in Haretz quotes Gallup as stating that 8% self-identified as atheist. The two figures of non-religious 57% and athiest 8% should be split out, as this was the finding of the poll, irrespective of the preferences of the journalists or Wikipedia contributors. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-china-among-least-religious-nations-1.5350737 Martin Turner (talk) 14:01, 2 January 2022 (UTC)