Talk:Prorogatio

Citation invalid

The 28th link says: Livy 9.42.2 Two other instances in the 5th century are dubious.
Do we have the 9th book of Livius ? AFAIK, the highest book we know of is the 8th.
Coul you clarify to which Livius passage you referred, and maybe give a pointer, e.g., to here: Livius

Ronbarak (talk) 18:37, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Since this is not original research, I'm only reporting what I find. The citation is not "invalid," but I see that I should've attributed the LIvy within its own footnote, as the larger passage here is from Cornell, cited in the footnote that follows the Livy ref. I may've slightly misread the remark: "other" instances in the 5th century were said to be dubious, not "two", a number which referred to the two instances that followed in Cornell. You may pursue this through the Cambridge Ancient History, and I'll add a more specific note for the comment in the footnote. Cynwolfe (talk) 19:34, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Here's a link to the passage in Latin from The Latin Library; I find Perseus tedious to use. Cynwolfe (talk) 20:11, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

clarification requested

Moved here from another talk page:

The grant of imperium to magistrates while still privati had me baffled. Less baffled now I've read the promagistrate article: but it still seems a remarkable sleight-of-propriety. Haploidavey (talk) 17:33, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

The case of Scipio Africanus being granted imperium as a private citizen, or later Pompey, is not quite the same thing as the regular process of promagistracy, as I understand it. In the Early Republic (and let me hasten to say that I wrote this in order to understand the process, not because I understood it), imperium was held only by the three magistrates, that is, two consuls and one praetor. These guys went off to fight the wars. This became particularly dicey when the wars moved off the Italian peninsula and farther and farther from Rome, because nobody was minding the store at home. With more military commanders needed, it became practice to grant provinciae to magistrates also as they left office for the coming year; these were the promagistrates. (The article on Promagistrate deals with proquaestors too; this is a murkier topic to me, but my understanding is that even when Cassius Longinus as quaestor took over the remnants of the Roman army following Carrhae and essentially governed Syria for a year or two, he was scrupulous about not assuming too many of the trapping of "power", which I'm supposing means not technical imperium?) Consuls later (I don't know at what point this starts) tend to stay in Rome; not sure on balance how many praetors later also stay home to preside over the courts (possibly all?).

Further development: someone like Cicero (to take a very familiar but late example) might be called on to take a province years after he held his last magistracy, if the need arose. Since competent and willing former magistrates were not always available in the number needed, on what were originally rare occasions a private citizen — one who hadn't been a praetor or consul — would be granted a military command with imperium. Does the article say Africanus was the first? Obviously a special case there because the military aristocracy was killed off in such numbers, and Africanus had a grudge to settle because his father had fallen in the war. Ambition being what it is, based on this precedent a private individual might jockey to get imperium, being eager to accept a command others were reluctant to take on, or to take on an irregular, ad-hoc command; this seems to be the case with Pompey, who as a result of the Sullan civil wars and his own opportunism held three grants of imperium (including the irregular command in the War On Terror, er, against the pirates), the first before he held the requisite offices in the cursus honorum; then, when he decided to go legit, or as legit as Pompey got, he aimed straight for the top, and ran for consul on a "ticket" with Crassus in, whenever, 70 or so for their first consulship.

So my understanding is that the promagistracies as they are described in that article represent the regular process of assigning provinces to consuls and praetors as they left office, as it evolved during the Middle Republic. A consul or praetor could decline a province, as Cicero did following his consulship, causing a bit of a rigged mess. But the imperium granted to a privatus such as Pompey was the most dangerous innovation, as it detached military power from elective office altogether, that is, completely severed the possession of power and the use of the state's monopoly on force from the idea that this imperium was granted by the consent of the governed. In attempting to document the "governors" of Gaul, I found I didn't understand the evolution of provincial assignments very well, so that's how I came to work on this. Don't know whether I've got it all right, but I'm going on what my secondary sources say. Cynwolfe (talk) 22:08, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm inclined to trust your sources and your interpretations: what you've written makes sense (a good sign, I reckon). Roman "constitutional" history seems particularly difficult when approached as a set of legal principles which set strict functional parameters on office: what you describe above - and thank you for taking so much trouble over it - seems less driven by legal rectitude than pragmatism, with a dollop of opportunism to lard the wheels. Dangerously fluid and unpredictable. No wonder ambitu became such an issue. And perhaps no surprise that Cassius kept so visibly squeaky-clean. And that the painfully eager Pompey never quite could, despite his success with the er, pirates. Haploidavey (talk) 23:51, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Long history portion

imo the article should be about __prorogation__ rather than half the reported instances in which someone was prorogued. That can be put into a general historical article or in the promagistrate article. I plan on removing the repetitive XYZ was prorogued in year 123 with a more structured discussion:

• Legal effect (and constitutionality)
• Prorogation of privati
• Battlefield prorogation

Comments welcomed. Ifly6 (talk) 00:20, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Merge with Promagistrate

I merged this article with promagistrate. See the talk page thereat. Ifly6 (talk) 04:38, 19 March 2023 (UTC)