Talk:Oxford English Dictionary/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Comprehensiveness

The source provided for the fact that the OED is the most comprehensive is the Oxford University Press - hardly an unbiased viewpoint. I've rewritten the first sentence to say that it is a comprehensive dictionary. Can someone provide an unbiased scholarly comparison of dictionaries? Longouyang (talk) 17:07, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem with calling the OED "a comprehensive dictionary" is that it is a bit like calling the Grand Canyon a large valley. It is the most comprehensive dictionary by far - I don't know of any that have more than 2 volumes. The OED 2nd edition is 20 volumes and the 3rd edition will be much bigger again. I think it is taken as self-evident so no one has ever "proved" it.

Molybdomancer (talk) 14:17, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Entry Overhaul Necessary

An illustrative excerpt: "Since the first work by each editor tends to require more revision than his later, more polished work, it was decided to balance out this effect by performing the early, and perhaps itself less polished, work of this revision pass at a letter other than A." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Colline (talk • contribs) 20:49, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

IPA Oddity?

The Dictionary.app program built into OS X 10.4 (along with the widget and the Cmd-Ctrl-D menu) contains the text of the New Oxford American Dictionary. You can set it to show US English pronunciations using IPA rather than the strange diacritical system. I have found it to be very accurate except for with any word containing the same vowel as 'fat'. For this vowel, which is æ in IPA, it uses ø, which is not even used in English. So the pronunciation for 'fat' is given as føt, which sounds more like someone with a thick accent trying to say 'foot'.

Does anyone know if there is a reason why this symbol is used? Is the IPA used in the print edition of either this or the normal OED? If so, can someone check which symbol is used there?

I should mention that the only word I have found whose pronunciation correctly uses æ is 'phat', interestingly enough.

As far as I know no-one has offered an explanation, but this Macosxhints article offers opinions: http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20050823032821731

It would indeed be interesting to see the pronunciation scheme used in the print edition of the NOAD -- the OED does not follow the IPA exactly, but I couldn't tell you offhand what the differences are. That should be in the article.

This should really belong on the talk page for the New_Oxford_American_Dictionary (which needs updating to mention its use in OS X).

Njál 16:44, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Endings

Quote:

"The OED is generally regarded as the definitive dictionary of Modern English, especially British English."

It is thus strange that some computer spell checkers treat an -ize ending to a word when spell checking for "British English" as an error! --Anonymous

That's because many Brits were/are used to the simple rule that words with a Latin root take -ise, and words with a Greek root take -ize. So the OUP's rule (mostly for the benefit of their copyeditors, one suspects) is not the general rule for British English. --quota

The new language tag en-GB-oed was introduced so that, hopefully, spell checkers which spell check according to OED spelling will become available and so that people who write with OED style and use -ize endings where correct will no longer be told that they are "using an Americanism". --Songwriter 00:22 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

No, they aren't. Brits are used to the even simpler rule that words end in -ise and not -ize, basically the oppsite of the American one. They used to use -ise for Latin and -ize for Greek, but no longer bother to make the distinction. For example, organize is of Greek origin, yet usually spelled organise in British English. --Delirium 01:25, September 9, 2005 (UTC)

"The OED lists British spellings for headwords first (for example, labour and centre), followed by other variants (labor, center, etc.). OUP policy also dictates that -ize suffixes be used (instead of -ise) for many words more commonly ending in -ise, even if the root is Latin rather than Greek.

"The sentence "The group analysed labour statistics published by the organization" is an example of OUP practice."

Shouldn't that sentence be "The group analyzed labour statistics published by the organization" or am I missing something here? --Silvestre Zabala 14:21, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors (2000 edition) says "analyse, not -lyze (US)". I assume that this book states OUP policy. The OED2 is more equivocal, listing both spellings with analyse first. The analyse/analyze issue is distinct from (although linked to) the -ise/-ize one. --Heron 19:29, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Are spellings like 'privatize' and 'organize' Americanisms? - provides a good light on the issue.

Fowler's Modern English Usage says: <quote> -ize, -ise, in verbs. In the vast majority of the verbs that end in -ize or -ise and are pronounced 'iz', the ultimate source of the ending is the Greek 'izo', whether the particular verb was an actual Greek one or a Latin or French or English imitation, and whether such imitation was made by adding the termination to a Greek or other stem. Most English printers, taking their cue from Kent in 'King Lear', 'Thou whoreson zed! Thou unnecessary letter!', follow the French practice of changing -ize to ise. But the Oxford University Press, the Cambridge University Press, The Times, and American usage, in all of which -ize is the accepted form, carry authority enough to outweigh superior numbers. The OED's judgement may be quoted: 'In modern French the suffix has become -iser, alike in words from Greek, as 'baptiser', 'évangéliser', 'organiser', and those formed after them from Latin, as 'civiliser', 'cicatriser', 'humaniser'. Hence, some have used the spelling -ise in English, as in French, for all these words, and some prefer -ise in words formed in French or English from Latin elements, retaining -ize for those of Greek composition. But the suffix itself, whatever the element to which it is added, is in its origin the Greek -izein, Latin -izare; and, as the pronunciation is also with 'z', there is no reason why in English the special French spelling should be followed, in opposition to that which is at once etymological and phonetic. It must be noticed, however, that a small number of verbs, some of them in very frequent use, like 'advertise', 'devise', and 'surprise', do not get their -ise even remotely from the Greek -izo, and must be spelt with -s-. The difficulty of remembering which these -ise verbs are is in fact the only reason for making -ise universal, and the sacrifice of significance to ease does not seem justified. The more important of these exceptions are here given: advertise, advise, apprise, chastise, circumcise, comprise, compromise, demise, despise, devise, disfranchise, enfranchise, enterprise, excise, exercise, improvise, incise, premise, revise, supervise, surmise, surprise, televise. </unquote> Quod erat demonstrandum. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.131.215.35 (talk • contribs) , at 14:43, 1 February 2006

Awesomeness (POV)

The OED is the best dictionary in the world at the moment; I think it worth underlining that this is the case.

I agree, and, as I judge it, it's not POV to say so. No other dictionary for any language is as complete and as careful; it is a monument of human scholarship, nothing else comes close to it. (Aidan Kehoe, aidan at parhasard.net)

To preserve NPOV, I suggest you confine yourself to a summation of objective facts (most comprehensive, most definitions, oldest, most trusted &etc.) instead of a subjective feeling like that. --Maru 13:46, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Most definitions, most historical citations, most comprehensive, most trusted, by a wide margin on each. It's not "best" when measured on some index like "portability," but on every index that you can reasonably judge a comprehensive dictionary on, it wins. I would love to see an informed objection to this, but this is my area, I've been looking for one for years, and I haven't found one. But, ech, I don't care enough about the Wikipedia to hunt down quotes. Enjoy yourselves!

When you think about it, the idea of "the best dictionary" is slightly meaningless. Best for what? For who? In what way best? As for "best dictionary in the world", is there there anyone alive who can reasonably make that statement? Even if we're talking only about large monolingual historical dictionaries like OED, how many people can there be who have an intimate knowledge of them all and are in a position to offer an informed judgment? Possibly none. People who come out with this kind of wild and unconsidered statement, adducing no evidence, have probably just read one of Simon Winchester's books and been wowed by some statistics. What's the best car in the world? The best piece of software? The best map? Flapdragon 12:30, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I have some sort of an Oxford Dictionary and I think it said on the removable cover (which I had to throw away because those are just annoying) that it had 300,000+ words while the Merrium-Webster only has 140,000+ words. I think that says that M-W is too conservative. I have to wonder because the unabridged version has just under 500,000; what gets left out and put into the unabridged dictionary? I'm almost done reading the one I got, so I know I can handle a few more entries.

- Adam H. June 19, 2006

Statistics

I have two objections to the changes made to the Miscellanea section. First, why was Shakespeare removed as the most-quoted author, which is verified by the O.E.D. web site? Second, why was the most frequently quoted work changed from the Bible to Cursor Mundi? When I searched for Cursor Mundi, I only found 524 quotations in the New Edition and 16 in the Second Edition. But I might have been searching incorrectly—the source below found more than 12,000:

However Brewer's figures also show that the privileging of major literary authors can be overstated. For instance it is often claimed that for the Middle English period Chaucer's works were plundered for quotations to a much greater extent than other texts, and this has led to overstated claims concerning Chaucer's contribution to English vocabulary (see Mersand 1937 and Cannon 1998). However while Chaucer's works did yield a massive 11,902 quotations, other Middle English texts, such as the anonymous Cursor Mundi and the Wycliffite translation of the Bible provided greater numbers: 12,772 and 11,971 quotations respectively. As Brewer rightly points out, studies of this kind tell us more about lexicographical practice than the importance of such authors for the development of the language [[1]].

This seems to show that Cursor Mundi is the most-quoted Middle English work. Still, this doesn't compare with the estimate of 25,000 quotations as given on the O.E.D. web site [2], an estimate which includes the "various full and partial versions, and translations". --Lesgles 17:52 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

According to "The Meaning of Everything", a book by Simon Winchester about the history of the OED, Cursor Mundi is the most quoted English work in the entire dictionary. Winchester is pretty meticulous about that sort of thing. I don't know why Shakespeare was removed as the most oft-quoted author though. -- – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)}[[]] 20:16, Nov 3, 2004 (UTC)

The OED website ([3]) says the Bible is the most-quoted work, Shakespeare is the most-quoted author, and Hamlet is the most-quoted work of Shakespeare. — Dan | Talk 22:07, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

OK, I added Shakespeare. I agree with you that WInchester is a reliable source, but it's funny that the web site contradicts him. It's possible that Winchester didn't count all the versions of the Bible as a single work. It's also true that the word "Bible" is often either omitted or put in the place of the author; e.g., "1382 WYCLIF Rev. xxii. 15 Houndes, and venym doers..." "1611 BIBLE 1 Sam. xvii. 6 And he had..a target of brasse..." --Lesgles 1:57 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

OED copyright

So is any of the OED out of copyright yet? If so it would be great for wiktionary. --The bellman 11:55, 2005 Jan 26 (UTC)

I was wondering about the copyright of the OED myself recently. What I found was not encouraging; basically it's not out of copyright, and not even a portion of it is going to be out of copyright for a long time. I think I got this from a discussion on the Project Gutenberg website.... You may want to check yourself more thoroughly, but I wouldn't get your hopes up. --NoahB 19:18, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Could you link to that discussion? A search of the Gutenberg site for "oxford english dictionary copyright" shows up only newsletters and unrelated miscellany like that. --maru 02:58, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My belief (IANAL) is that the first 10 (out of 12) volumes of the 1st edition OED are public domain in the US (those volumes reproduce the fasciles that were published before 1923) and the last two volumes are still in copyright. The last fascicle came out in 1928. Phr 00:01, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Most of the OED 2nd edition (1989) is out of copyright, it seems

The following are page scans from A New English Dictionary, volumes 2, 4, and 5--published in 1893, 1901, and 1919, respectively. If you check, you will note that Oxford University Press copied them straight into it's Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd ed. (1989).

Title page from volume 4, (1901) of the NED
p. 182 from vol. 4 of the NED
Title page from A New English Dictionary, vol. 2, (1893)
p. 1 from vol. 2 of the NED
Title page from vol. 5 of the NED, 1919.
"J," p. 531 from A New English Dictionary, vol. 5. (1919) p. 531

I noticed that the definitions are copied almost word-for-word, as well, with the exception of new quotes and senses. This must be why Marion Sader and Amy Lewis in Encyclopedias, atlases & dictionaries (1995) p. 344, claim that certain parts of the OED2 are not accurate due to the outdated scholarship. One is given the impression that the OED was "expanded" to 20 volumes from the previous 12. However, those original volumes were huge. They each vary in size, but one of them was the largest book I've ever seen. They looked much larger than the present volumes. Further, as one can see from the page scans above, the columns are given much more spacing in the second edition, increasing the number of pages further.--Ftym67 01:00, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

With regard to '89 being Public Domain: Even if it is almost word-for-word, unless you can show that the changes are de minimis and thus confer no new copyright- rather difficult and unlikely since adding "new quotes and senses" is almost certainly greater than de minimis. --maru (talk) contribs 01:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

What I meant by "new quotes" was more-recent ones pasted at the end of some quotation paragraphs. The same seems to be the case with senses. I'm not sure that correcting spelling errors, though, would result in a new copyright since that does not result in a creative work. I guess it's true, however, that it's impossible to prove that all of the copied portions do not contain any new embedded phrases--although I didn't notice any and I understand that small copyrighted excerpts are fair use. I also understand that all residents of the UK now have access to the online version. It seems to me that they could copy etymologies and definitions for long-used senses without fear of copyright violation.--Ftym67 01:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

In a dictionary, it is arguable that correcting spelling errors is a creative work. In any other work which wasn't concerned with the spelling of words, you in theory might have a point. But given modern courts, unless one can use the Corel case, such attempts are futile. Small excerpts used under fair use are useless for Wikimedia projects such as Wiktionary and Wikipedia, simply because fair use is very much conditional and subject to change, and of course, the license is still proprietary. --maru (talk) contribs 18:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Note: Ftym67 (talk · contribs) is almost certainly a sockpuppet of indefinitely blocked Primetime (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), aka Rickyboy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) aka Richardr443 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). See here and here for the full and gory details. Note the continued rationalizations for plagiarism. --Calton | Talk 13:45, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia should use OED English?

The Wikipedia is very inconsistent in use of spellings. With some articles hopping back and forth between variant spellings of the same word. Has there ever been, or should there be, a push by Wikipedia to use only en-gb-oed for the English Wikipedia?

Many people edit this wikipedia edition. They use the English they know. They are trying to do their very best. So please don't complain! ----

Yes, that's right! Americans use American spelling, British use British spelling, Australians use Australian spelling... if you wish to obtain Wikipedia editions for one English spelling you would have to spread en.wiki.x.io apart into the various versions of English spoken (and written) on this globe. There's not only British English! And that is what makes English so colo(u)rful! --85.74.158.186 22:02, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I think you missed his point. As an encyclopedia Wikipedia should demostrate a level of continuity. Its very hard for someone using it if the articles vary between all dialects and forms of spoken English. Imagine if one article is in South African English (which varies greatly in many ways to American English or English English), the next is in Australian style, the next in....etc etc. I think its a good idea, as Wikipedia requires some level of continuity in its style of writing.

This question is dealt with thoroughly in Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English —Caesura ^(t) 15:13, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

If we were forced to use only one, I suppose that Oxford Spelling would be the best choice, based on the fact that it is semi-Commonwealth and semi-American. I submitted a proposal to [[Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Spelling] that was a compromise, but noöne seems to like it. I don't think anybody is going to willingly compromise or accept total rule of one version. Sigh...Cameron Nedland 21:32, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Which variety of English uses "noöne"? Is that a Nedlandism? "No one" is the usual spelling. — Paul G 15:41, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

1 volume edition

An editor here doubted that there's an one volume edition of the Oxford English dictionary. However, it exists. It was first published in 1948. I own a copy printed in 1981 which I was supposed to use in school and which I DID use in school and which I still own, and cherish, as of today. The current edition contains 1920 pages and is available on Amazon: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0194316513/qid=1121898751/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-0123068-2287067

Please check this information. ;) --85.74.131.62 22:44, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

There is (or was) definitely a 1-volume edition of OED2. It's photo-reduced and has 9 page images on each printed page. It's mentioned in the article. (preceding unsigned comment by 71.141.251.153 at 02:51 on 21 January 2006)

And below in this very thread if you care to read down a few lines. ;-] Flapdragon 02:37, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Oops, I must say I was wrong here. The 1 volume dictionary is found at Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. That's the one I used in school 25 years ago and which I still own. --85.74.158.186 21:58, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I wonder why you didn't bother to revert the mistake? OALD is completely different item and not easy to confuse with something running to 20 vols! It's a mistake that's often made, however. Many people just don't understand that not every book with the words "Oxford", "English" and "Dictionary" on it is the Oxford English Dictionary. Oxford University Press (who probably have little enough reason to dispel the misconception) publish many dictionaries of English, but there is only one OED. It's not a school dictionary, it's not for checking your spelling, it's a specialist tool for researchers and word-enthusiasts; most people have never seen a copy, let alone owned one. Then again, many people think there is something called "The Dictionary", rather like saying "The Bible", so what can you do... Flapdragon 22:37, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I DID make some changes, and I posted a link to the Oxford Advanced Leaner's Dictionary. I'm sorry to see that my reference in the compact edition segment was deleted. It should have remained there. It was a reference to another edition of the Oxford Dictionary. --85.74.172.150 22:14, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

OK, let's try again...

(1) There is no such thing as "the Oxford dictionary", any more than there is such a thing as "the Ford car". Oxford University Press publishes a range of English dictionaries which do not necessarily have any shared parentage. (2) This article is about a particular publication called the Oxford English Dictionary. It has nothing in common with your dictionary except the name of the publisher. Everyday one-volume dictionaries of English published by OUP are not cut-down versions of this publication. You would hardly make a small everyday one-volume dictionary by cutting down twenty volumes of specialist scholarship; you don't design a rowing-boat by scaling down the QE2. (3) The only thing that could be described as a one-volume edition of OED is the "compact" edition, a monster tome printed on very thin paper with no fewer than nine pages photo-reduced onto each page; you need a powerful magnifying glass to read it. This is most definitely not what you had at school. Most schoolchildren probably couldn't even lift it.

I urge you to read the article and understand what it's about before editing it. If you have information to contribute about the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, please add it at the relevant article, not here. --Flapdragon 23:07, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

when did NED become OED?

Under 'Fascicles' the writer of this (most illuminating and informed) article says 'A second change in 1895 was the adoption of the title Oxford English Dictionary (OED) but only on the outer covers of the fascicles'. Can I ask what the evidence for this is - have you seen (or do you possess) copies of the original fascicles, with outer wrappers/covers intact, which have 'Oxford English Dictionary' on them from 1895 onwards but not before? C.T.Onions in 1928 ('Report on the Society's Dictionary', Transactions of the Philological Society (1925-30), 1-5) refers to the initial change from NED to OED (on covers only, not title page) but doesn't give a date. (I've partially quoted what he says in the glossary on my Examining OED site, at <http://oed.hertford.ox.ac.uk/main/content/view/73/183/>, under 'New English Dictionary). I'm planning to visit the OED archives and look at an original set of fascicles, but if anyone knows of a reliable authority (other than Onions) giving chapter and verse on the date at which the covers started saying 'New English Dictionary',I should be very grateful for the information. (Is there something on this tucked away somewhere in Caught in the Web of Words? Haven't been able to find it). Charlotte Brewer.Charlottebrewer 09:57, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I can now answer this question, thanks to the OED archivist Beverley Hunt at Oxford University Press, who tells me that the first fascicle cover to bear the title 'Oxford English Dictionary' alongside that of 'New English Dictionary' was Part 8, Section 2: D-Depravation, published 1895. Every fascicle published subsequent to that date included both titles - though fascicles were not necessarily published in alphabetical order.Charlotte BrewerCharlottebrewer 12:25, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

The information in the article perhaps came from Winchester's The Meaning of Everything (p217), which says of the fascicle published on 1 January 1895 (he says it covers Deceit to Deject):

printed on the outer cover -- not on the inside title page, 
but only on the slip cover -- were, for the first time, the words 
Oxford English Dictionary.

Good to have this confirmed from the horse's mouth, so to speak. Flapdragon 01:42, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

I am concerned, however, if that really 'counts'. I just dragged Volume IV of 'A New Oxford Dictionary on Historical Principles' off my shelf. That has letters F and G, dated 1901. I may have missed it, but I have not found the sequence "Oxford English Dictionary" in the front matter. If the term were in use in 1895, would it not appear in the volume published six years later? --mfc

I am the OED archivist at OUP. As Charlotte Brewer mentions above, I have checked our set of fascicles and the first fascicle to be labelled as the Oxford English Dictionary (alongside the title of New English Dictionary) is for D-Depravation, Part 8, Section 2 (1895). I see that Simon Winchester claims the first fascicle is Deceit-Deject. This could also be correct – it depends how the fascicles were grouped together. See below for an extract from Jenny McMorris’ appendix to ‘Lexicography and the OED’ by Lynda Muggelstone:

"Publication of the dictionary began with the appearance of parts at intervals of between one and two years. After eight of these had been published…general dissatisfaction with the rate of publication persuaded the Press to issue more frequent portions in smaller instalments. This became the pattern of future publication: small sections, called at first ‘fasciculi’, each 64 pages in length, were issued quarterly and were then grouped in parts of about five sections and reissued."

So the section for Deceit-Deject would have later been grouped together with the sections for D-Deceit and Deject-Depravation to form the part D-Depravation. Therefore both can claim to be the first to gain the title Oxford English Dictionary. Now to the later comment about Volume 4 for F and G. The title Oxford English Dictionary is only given on the outer cover of the fascicles, not on the inner title page. Those fascicles in my set which were published after 1895 do contain the title Oxford English Dictionary on the outer cover, but when these were bound into the larger volumes the outer cover would have been discarded and only the inner title page maintained, which contains no evidence of the change of title. Therefore while the fascicles possess the title of Oxford English Dictionary, the volumes do not. I hope this helps to explain the issue.

I was the anonymous contributor who added this bit to the article, and I did get it from Winchester's book. However, it is also stated in the Historical Introduction to the OED1 itself. In the Compact Edition see the fourth sub-page on page viii:

At the time this change [i.e. to smaller fascicles] was made, a new name for the Dictionary was also introduced, though no change was made on the title-page. On the cover of the section containing Deceit to Deject, published on 1 Jan. 1895, above the title, appeared for the first time the designation 'The Oxford English Dictionary', which was repeated on every section and part issued after 1 July of that year. The new name being more distinctive than the old has steadily come more and more into use, and the abbreviation O.E.D. tends to supplant N.E.D., although the latter is still frequently employed. A third abbreviation, H.E.D. (with H. for Historical), though employed for a number of years in Notes and Queries, never attained general currency. Popularly the work is often referred to as Murray's, and the Philological Society by natural tradition has continued to call it 'the Society's Dictionary'.

Incidentally, while confirming that Deceit–Deject was 64 pages, I was interested to see that the preceding section, D–Deceit, had the unusual length of 88 pages. Perhaps when they started with the smaller fascicles they wanted to publish everything they had ready at that point. Deject–Depravation is 64 pages again, making 216 for the combined fascicle mentioned above. 66.96.28.244 10:56, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Usenet

"Despite the attempts at copy-protection, one can still download the newest CD-ROM dictionary from Usenet for free."

I'm not sure this is relevant? --R4p70r 07:46, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I've removed it. It also seems to imply that the copy protection is unusually poor, despite the fact that the same thing can be said about most popular software. EldKatt (Talk) 15:52, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Fake / easter egg words

Are there any known fake / phony / fictitious / easter egg words in the OED? I mean words which never occurred before and were entirely invented by the editors either as a joke or as an attempt to trace who copies the OED corpus. See [4] for a similar story in another Oxford dictionary (the New Oxford American Dictionary, which includes the fake word "esquivalience": I wonder whether it will now appear in future editions of the OED as "rare^0" like "palumbine"). It would be interesting to automate comparing the OED corpus with those of other huge dictionaries and Google/DNS requests to see whether that reveals a few culprits. --Gro-Tsen 21:50, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I know there is one or two; but the specific one I cannot recall. I think the "Professor and the Madman" recounts'em. Sorry I can't be of further help. --Maru 23:34, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

OED Online

The OED is imensely useful, but how can I access the OED online? Does anyone have a username and a password? --Tavilis 16:05, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

My understanding was that the OED charged for online access; thusly, you would be asking us to aid you in financial fraud. --Maru (talk) 21:23, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Many universities and libraries have online access to the OED, so if you want to access the OED online, try a university library with public computing facilities. But of course, if you're at a university library, you can access the print edition of the OED anyway. —Caesura ^(t) 15:22, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Many UK Public Libraries give their members access to Oxford OED online Vernon White 16:51, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Some U.S. libraries do too, but I simply downloaded the CD-ROM from bittorrent. They just pirated a 2002 copy, so it's pretty up to date: [5].--67.165.207.21 19:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Wiki included

FLASH--THIS JUST IN--"Wiki Now an English Word"--Reuters 25 minutes ago:

If you think “wiki” doesn’t sound like English, you are right. But it’s English now. This word, born on the Pacific Island of Hawaii, finally got an entry into the online Oxford English Dictionary along with 287 other words. It has earned it.

Words are included in the dictionary on the basis of the documentary evidence that we have collected about them. A while ago this evidenced suggested that wiki was starting to make a name for itself, “OED Chief Editor John Simpson said in a statement. “We tracked it for several years, researched its origins and finally decided it was time to include it in the dictionary.”

But “wiki wiki”, meaning “quick” in Hawaiian, has a very different meaning in its new host language: a type of web page designed so that its contents can be edited by anyone who accesses it. That the word acquired a new meaning is attributed to the fact that commenting and editing on Internet Web sites became faster, the OED’s principle editor of new words, Graeme Diamond said. “There was no delay in submitting a comment,” Diamond said. The most famous example is the popular Internet encyclopædia wikipedia. Diamond said new Internet-age concept of “wiki” fits well with the 120-year-old dictionary’s own methods.

User:W8IMP 17:10, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

My last entry should have included the following:

Copyright© 2007 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon.

Since it is copywrited, does this mean I should not have included it?

--W8IMP 19:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

definitive dictionary

Generally regarded as the definitive dictionary of the English language...

Whether we say "generally" or (as before this edit) "often", just what does this statement actually mean? Unless it can be shown to have some real meaning and rephrased to make sense it should be deleted. We should be careful to avoid any implication that OED is the official arbiter of what counts as a "real word", or what's "correct English" or any such nonsense -- something OED does not claim to do and which no informed person would expect it to do. Flapdragon 02:07, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

It's hard to prove it means anything. I think that people are more likely to accept something if you quote it at them from the OED than some less famous/less well-researched dictionary. The OED has a good reputation for accuracy, but that's self-reinforcing. Can you design a study to measure people's opinions of different dictionaries? Njál 21:35, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

The idea that there can be a "definitive" dictionary is a complex and weird one. There can be no doubt that the OED is "generally regarded as" the most complete dictionary of the English language, but since this article is specifically about the full Dictionary, to call it the "definitive" one is surely to imply that it's the OED's completeness that makes it definitive, and therefore that other, more specialised dictionaries (focusing on slang, or etymology, or whatever) are not really dictionaries, since they do not follow the definition that the complete OED has implicitly laid down. Which I imagine is the foundation of Flapdragon's objection. Lexo (talk) 23:44, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Most-quoted work

On July 5, 2004, User:Quadell changed the earlier statement that the Bible was the most-quoted work to say that it was Cursor Mundi, without citing a source for this. Yet the askoxford.com page of statistics cited in the article says "Most-quoted work: the Bible", and the oed.com page of statistics is more specific:

Most frequently quoted work (in various full and partial version, and translations): Bible (est. 25,000 quotations)

I have seen the same statement in another source too, but I can't remember where. In any case, this seems like sufficient reason to restore this item; I've adjustd the wording to refer to the multiple forms of the Bible. Perhaps someone with OED Online access can determine how many quotations from Cursor Mundi there are?

66.96.28.244 10:24, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

A full text New Edition quotation search for 'Cursor Mundi' comes up with 1424 results. A search of the Second Edition comes up with 17. It appears to have been abbreviated to 'Cursor M,' which produces many more results — 11059 in the Second Edition and 9764 in the New Edition (which includes the SE). It looks like what's happening is that the abbreviation is being expanded in the NE — someone could contact the AskOxford team about this. That Cursor Mundi article needs rewriting. Njál 21:22, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Overuse of wikilinks

This page badly overuses wikilinks. According to MOS: Wikilinks, it's best not to link terms that are of little importance or commonly understood. Accordingly, I'm going to be brutal in de-linking. If you read through afterwords and think that the link to decimalisation, for instance, needs to be there, by all means put it back in. I just want to clear everything out so we can see what's valuable. Zabieru 01:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I absolutely agree with you in general. Thanks for doing this. I did restore three, however. Full dates have to be linked, unfortunately, to make date preferences work. I also restore links to shillings and pence, and computer markup, because I wasn't sure these would be familiar to all readers. Stephen Turner (Talk) 10:32, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

i had done some de-overwikification before your doing, nice to see that i'm not the only one to do so! indeed the problem of overwikification can be found on most pages and most wikis ... any bot can help?--K.C. Tang 04:00, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

the dictionary is a dictionary?

it seems somehow odd to read, in a reference work (such as wikipedia):

"the oxford english dictionary... is a dictionary yada yada"

yet that is just how this article begins

(the loch ness monster is a monster yada yada yada...)

would it not be more academic to change that to:

"the oxford english (oed) is a dictionary yada yada"

?

or perhaps "the oxford english dictionary (oed)

is [what it is, without including "dictionary"]

can someone take care of this redundance, please?

(i tried but it was edited out!)

While it is customary for entries in dictionaries not to use a word in its own definition, that doesn't make any sense for encyclopedias, where entries can be made up of multiple words. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-04-1 08:40
The word 'dictionary' here is not simply a word, but also a link to another page about dictionaries in general. If one person removes all info that he sees as redundant, that works if that person is an idiot. If that person is very knowledgable, he may be removing very useful info that he thinks is common knowledge/redundant, yet other people have never heard of. Anyway...--Hraefen 01:25, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Just because what something is in its name doesn't make it redundant. Central Park is a park, the Empire State Building is a building, and the Oxford English Dictionary is a dictionary. It is important to state these things because sometimes a thing in something's name is not what it is: The Second City is not a city, American Idol is not an idol, and The Shaggy Dog is not a dog. By clearly stating that that the Oxford English Dictionary is a dictionary we eliminate any possibility of confusion. Nohat 10:07, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Other versions of "Oxford English Dictionary"

I realise that this article is about the "full" OED, but I'm trying to find information about all the various Oxford english dictionaries (note lower case), and I don't know where to look. Specifically I want to know how "Concise", "Compact", "Pocket", etc., relate to each other. It seems like this article, or at least its "See Also" list, should help, but doesn't.

For example, this article says that "the full content of the 13-volume OED1 from 1933 was reprinted as a Compact Edition of just two volumes.". But Ask Oxford.com says "The Compact Oxford English Dictionary of Current English contains 145,000 words, phrases, and definitions." So I guess the "OED Compact Edition" is different from the "Compact OED". Basically, I think this article should eather contain or link to a list and comparison (basic, like number of definitions) of Oxford dictionaries, like this one. — Johan the Ghost _seance 10:35, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Nesh

I am developing an article called Nesh. I wonder if any editor has access to either the full or shorter version and can post here, please, the entry for nesh so I can include it in the article? TerriersFan 10:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The most accurate?

I removed this statement from the introduction: "It is also known as the de facto regulator of the English language." I also removed the word accurate from the second sentence in the intro. For one thing, the OED was compiled by volunteers. Many of these people were amateurs who selected poor quotations that didn't convey a word's meaning very well. Another problem is the fact that older parts of the dictionary just haven't been updated. Older senses of words read almost exactly as they did in the first edition and even in the NED. Etymologies, although very detailed, have to be double-checked. As an historical dictionary, the OED is peerless. It provides a very good record of words and senses no longer commonly used in English. But, editors do not rely on it as much as other dictionaries. There are many other large dictionaries that provide the same depth of coverage for words currently in use. Examples include Merriam-Webster's Third New International Dictionary and the Random House Unabridged Dictionary. Keep in mind that, although the OED is very large, it still lacks many modern slang, regional, and technical terms. It is baffling to me that OUP hasn't integrated terms found in its specialized dictionaries (e.g., The Oxford Dictionary of Computing) into the OED.--Words32 07:21, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Retaining older meanings of words, as well as including new meanings is surely a deliberate policy of the OED and is a facet of accuracy. If I encounter an apparently strange usage of a word when reading, for example, a Jane Austen novel, the OED is the most likely, out of the 3 dictionaries that you mention, to give the accurate distinction between the historic and modern meanings. Another facet of accuracy is illustrated by the fact that, if you look up a word which has different shades of meaning, or variant spellings, in different parts of the English-speaking world, the OED is the most likely of the 3 dictionaries to provide an accurate definition of those distinctions. I have not compared the 3 in terms of coverage of slang usages but have certainly used the OED as a reference for exactly that purpose and have always been pleasantly surprised by its coverage, even of slang terms from Usenet culture, for example. So I am surprised that it is less accurate than the others. Certainly the OED editors go to a lot of trouble continually to seek out new meanings of words. I agree that it is not the regulator of the English language and I would personally seek to burn every copy of a dictionary that had such an aim. Bluewave 08:22, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

What I meant to say about updating older parts of the dictionary was that older senses of certain words have not been checked against newly-discovered historical documents. I agree that the OED is still useful. I also have a burned copy on my hard drive. But, I also have a burned copy of Merriam-Webster's Third (W3). The Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary (RHD) is available for free on <Infoplease.com>. The W3 defines words in use from 1700 on. So, if you're reading Shakespeare, the OED is still the best choice. However, even with such a narrow purview, the W3 still has 475,000 entries (and many embedded head words within these). The RHD contains 375,000 entries. The W3 contains many shades of meaning for each term, as well. Sometimes, it has more shades than the OED. Unlike the OED, both include international names of chemicals and living things. The OED excludes these as they are not unique to English (e.g., Homo sapiens). Further, unlike almost all other dictionaries, the OED does not include illustrations. It's still a wonderful dictionary, but I prefer to look up most words in other dictionaries.--Words32 09:02, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Pretty much no flagship British English dictionary has pictures. Those aimed at children or EFL do, and a few specifically called "illustrated dictionary". It's not an OED/others distinction, it's a British/American distinction. Personally I think British dictionaries are being a bit snobbish a la Bourbaki about it, but there you are. jnestorius^(talk) 11:09, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I have never read or seen an adult dictionary with illustrations. Seems a bit childish. 81.157.123.242 00:09, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

What do you think better defines an ulna: this or this? Also compare these birch definitions here and here. I have always viewed a lack of illustrations as a sign of cheapness, as if the publisher was attempting to save money.--Words32 06:01, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

"See also"

What's the point of all these "see also" links? What exactly is the relevance of the Century Dictionary, Fowler's Modern English Usage etc? Even the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, which is just an unconnected work from the same publishing house? Flapdragon 03:32, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Good point. They seem merely to be "advertising" for other Wikipedia articles. Those which are true "Oxford" dictionaries are listed in the Oxford Dictionary category, which is accessible from this page. — Grstain | Talk 13:59, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Removed the irrelevant ones. Flapdragon 14:50, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Compact Oxford English Dictionary of Current English

The Wikipedia page for the above redirects to the Oxford English Dictionary page. They're completely different books - The Compact OED of Current English is just over 1200 pages long, a little squirt compared to the full OED. And it's based on the Concise Oxford English Dictionary, not the Oxford English Dictionary. I'm not wikipedia-literate enough to break this redirect. Could someone else do this? It's really misleading! Accaber 13:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Done. See Compact Oxford English Dictionary and links. Thanks, jnestorius^(talk) 14:19, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

These OUP titles are so misleading. As if there wasn't enough confusion with Oxford English Dictionary, Oxford Dictionary of English, Compact Oxford English Dictionary or is it Compact edition of OED, can you believe they call this one Compact Oxford English Dictionary of Current English and then refer to it as the Compact Oxford English Dictionary which is alsi what's on the cover? And what kind of title is Compact Oxford English Dictionary of Current English anyway? You'd almost believe they wanted to foster the misapprehension so many people have that they own "The Oxford English Dictionary". Flapdragon 14:38, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

OED At Home

For a friend, I read this OED article today for the first time, and summarised as follows.

Searching the article afterwards for the word "library", I see the info of my second paragraph actually already is in the article. But that info - personally most significant to me and I guess to almost any reader - was skillfully buried in a way that led me to miss it. Maybe we should fix that.

http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Oxford_English_Dictionary tells me the electronic alternatives for purchase at home aren't real yet. OED have lost time playing with copy-protection and proprietary data formats. Also OED have let really committed people fetch entries across the Internet for ~US$300/yr.

http://www.oed.com/services/public-libs.html says that most people living in Ireland and the UK now can get "remote access" thru their local library, which means "you can access the whole of OED online at home, free, using your library's subscription.". They also say "of course, many libraries elsewhere in the world subscribe, and should offer remote access. Ask your librarian whether your library subscribes".

67.188.135.108 13:58, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

confusion with other dictionaries

Several English dictionaries have "Oxford" in their title. This seems to be causing a significant amount of confusion. Many people who think they've used the Oxford English Dictionary actually haven't. Doesn't this warrant mentioning in the article? I would like to see a section about this issue, perhaps with a list of dictionaries that have "Oxford" in their title and a short description of how each is related to the OED. Herorev 07:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Good idea. I've added a hatnote. jnestorius^(talk) 09:29, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

lklk —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.213.112 (talk) 04:22, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

currently logged in. Eding this way will —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.192.213.112 (talk) 04:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Criticism

7 April 2008: I fixed several grammatical and punctuation errors and made some sentences more clear. I also pointed to the need for sourcing and citations, though I don't think this article is inaccurate.

I added a "criticisms" section to offer another perspective on the dictionary. My main source was Roy Harris' TLS review from 1982. I know there are several other critical pieces and books on the OED; if anyone has read them, could you add that information to the article?

Also, could someone with expert knowledge untangle the following sentence and make it more clear? I have no idea what it is trying to say.

Despite the participation of some 800 volunteer readers, the technology of paper-and-ink was the major drawback regarding the arbitrary choices of relatively untrained volunteers about "what to read and select" and "what to discard."

[This is from the "First Editors" section.]

 Comrade pat (talk) 23:17, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

About being number two (or number three?)

I am not sure the OED is the second largest dictionary in print.

The "Grande Dizionario Della Lingua Italiana Battaglia", is published in 21 volumes, (29,5 x 22,5 cm), 22504 pages, is printed really tight on 3 columns, with not even one graphic. Just the main entries are 183594, but with secondary ones it comes close to half a million.

Reference: http://www.lamescolanza.com/temp/grande_dizionario.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.222.49.195 (talk) 12:58, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Compact editions

Noting this revert, what can we add to the article to illustrate that a Compact edition is practically unreadable and a recent one-volume Compact completely and unusably unreadable, hence the continuing sale of the older two-volume? All without falling foul of WP:NOR, of course. The two-volume is, AFAIK, the only book I can think of that's sold with a bundled magnifying glass. Even that's barely enough. Whilst I think this revert was in the best of faith and compliance with scripture, the point that was previously made is worth making. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:58, 7 September 2008 (UTC) (all 13 volumes and no space to put them)

Editorialize elsewhere. I like reading in my compact edition just fine. --Gwern (contribs) 16:32 7 September 2008 (GMT)

I don't think the OED2 compact version is printed significantly smaller than the two-volume OED1 version -- it's printed nine-up by making the pages bigger. The dimensions of the OED2 version according to Amazon are 44.4 x 28.4 cm, whereas my compact OED1 (BCA edition, but I assume it's the same size as the Oxford edition) measures 31.0 x 23.5 cm. Incidentally, other books have been sold bundled with a magnifying glass, e.g. the Compact Edition of the Dictionary of National Biography (UK). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.113.91.48 (talk) 12:05, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Publication dates table

This table could be clearer with some column headings. Although the info is mostly explained in the text to the left, it would help if the table were easy understandable on its own -- e.g., why we see A, C, D, F, etc., and not A-B, C, D-E, F. AaRH (talk) 23:52, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Critisisms section

Article says: "More recently, John Willinsky has criticized the OED in his Empire of Words: The Reign of the Oxford English Dictionary."

Ok, so what? Care to elaborate? I'm sure there are many other people that have critisized the OED but they haven't been mentioned. So why are we mentioning this specific guy? What is his problem with the OED specifically? A word? The font that is used? This section needs to be re-written to include some detail. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.210.64.214 (talk) 08:37, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

More generally, with regard to the criticisms section, it is mainly based on an analysis dating from the early 1980s. Many of the criticisms are really "historic" criticisms rather than criticisms of the OED as it currently stands. Can anyone find a reputable source of criticism that is a bit more up-to-date? Bluewave (talk) 13:28, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Origin of this article

Most of this article also appears verbatim at [[6]]. Which was the original? Ineuw (talk) 16:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

You know, you could have easily answered this question yourself. Hint: go to that article's history page. Note the year. Go to our article's history; click 'earliest'. Note down the year. Profit! --Gwern (contribs) 17:15 10 November 2008 (GMT)

original english word

i want the exact no. of original english words in very first oxford dictionary.pls tell me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.95.23.59 (talk) 04:58, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Electronic versions out of copyright

There was a discussion up the page about copyright issues, but what I'd like to know specifically is if there are any on-line versions of out-of-copyright versions of the Oxford English Dictionary. - KappaD (talk) 09:22, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

The name again

Two fully-bound print editions of the OED have been published under its current name, in 1928 and 1989

Am I missing something? It wasn't published under its current name in 1928, it wasn't the OED till much later. Flapdragon (talk) 22:03, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

a way of saying something has gone wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.25.57.217 (talk) 00:54, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Note 18 is a dead link. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.202.139.147 (talk) 11:32, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

cd screenshot

new screenshot added of cd v4.0 win7 added --Umar1996 (talk) 12:59, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

How do you say OED?

Is it O.E.D. or ode? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.128.246.1 (talk) 11:07, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I have only ever heard O.E.D. (letters pronounced separately). By the way, in the future for questions like this you can turn to the Wikipedia:Reference desk. Lesgles (talk) 08:22, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

I'd beg to differ. I am quite certain it is pronounced "oh-ee-dee". Furthermore, questions regarding the subject of an article, such as the above, should be asked in discussion pages as it allows the editors to gauge what is missing in the article and amend it: for every question asked one can be sure there where umpteen times that number in people wondering the same and not asking. --Squidonius (talk) 21:01, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

You're not begging to differ, you're giving the exact same answer. 58.250.175.74 (talk) 04:54, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Spelling

Since this article is about the Oxford English Dictionary itself, shouldn't it use OED spelling? Bob A (talk) 17:38, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

What did you have in mind? There's an OUP spelling style, but not a specifically OED spelling (it records all spellings, in general). quota (talk) 08:59, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

The appropriate style is the one in use throughout wiki if there is one. If there is not a style, then that is the style that should be used. It is not correct in English to adapt to local styles so for instance we say Paris, not Pahree. If you look at the OED entry for France, it is unlikely it is written in French, so even their style takes that approach.

The Pocket Oxford Dictionary of Current English

Also called the "Pocket Oxford Dictionary" is not on this page. Why is this? Snowman (talk) 08:53, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. From the OUP site there is also: the Compact Oxford Dictionary & Thesaurus; the Oxford Paperback Dictionary & Thesaurus; the Little Oxford Dictionary and Thesaurus; the Oxford Dictionary and Thesaurus; the Oxford Dictionary of English; the Pocket Oxford English Dictionary; and the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary Deluxe Edition. It would be great if someone could classify all these into some intelligible taxonomy and add it to the article. Oxford University Press seem unwilling/incapable of doing it. 84.250.130.175 (talk) 13:05, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

I have had occasion to consult at least one of those pocket editions and found it to be pretty awful. There's a similar problem with the Merriam-Webster: unabridged (excellent), collegiate (excellent), high-school edition (awful). If we could just find a tactful and diplomatic way of saying that. Zyxwv99 (talk) 14:31, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

I am surprised to note that we do not have edition of Oxford Dictionary that can open in Linux. Linux versions are growing in use and so some dictionary should be available. Pathare Prabhu (talk) 06:55, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

close paraphrasing

Two paragraphs of the wikipedia article are very close paraphrases of the article on the OED in the Concise Oxford Companion to the English Language. Here are the two paragraphs:

Furnivall understood the need for an efficient excerpting system, and instituted several prefatory projects. In 1864, he founded the Early English Text Society, and in 1868, he founded the Chaucer Society for preparing general benefit editions of immediate value to the dictionary project. The compilation lasted 21 years.[citation needed]

Despite the participation of some 800 volunteer readers, the technology of paper-and-ink was the major drawback regarding the arbitrary choices of relatively untrained volunteers about "what to read and select" and "what to discard."[cite this quote][clarification needed]

And here is the relevant text from the Companion:

On his premature death in 1861 at 31, the editorship passed to Furnivall, who realized that an efficient system of excerpting was needed. This meant that for the earlier centuries printed texts had to be prepared of manuscripts not hitherto easily available; he therefore founded in 1864 the Early English Text Society and in 1865 the Chaucer Society, preparing editions of texts of general benefit as well as immediate value to the project. None of this work, however, led to compilation; it was entirely preparatory and lasted for 21 years. There were in the end some 800 voluntary readers. Their enthusiasm was enormous, but in a process which depended on paper and pen alone a major drawback was the often arbitrary choices made by the relatively untrained volunteers regarding what to read and select, what to discard, and how much detail to provide.

I am going to rewrite these two paragraphs both for clarity and to properly cite the source. GabrielF (talk) 17:10, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Definitions or Descriptions?

@Quota: I don't know what your source is for saying that the OED "doesn't define meanings." The back of my Concise OED (2002) says, "This world-famous dictionary provides a comprehensive description of the English language..."; of course I can't dispute the fact that the OED 'describes' the words it 'defines', but it does also define. Forgive me for quibbling. Throughout the introduction to that dictionary, the authors refer to the entries as 'definitions.' (To delve into nerdiness, it is not clear whether an individual definition refers to the entire entry for a word or just one of the numbered components thereof, which the introduction refers to interchangeably as 'meanings', 'senses', etc. If there are 600,000 entries, there may be 600,000 definitions or there may only be definitions for 600,000 words.) Tdimhcs (talk) 17:55, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

(Sorry about the delay in replying.) You may be confusing the Concise OED with the OED. The former is indeed a 'prescriptive' dictionary (which attempts to offer definitions and decscribe 'correct' usage, etc.). The latter simply documents words, describes their common meanings, and illustrates their usage (whether 'correct' or not). Hope that helps. quota (talk) 13:21, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Template

I expanded the template, Template:Dictionaries of English, and added it to this article, and a few others. Does this seem useful? should i add pub dates? is it correct in its categorizing?Mercurywoodrose (talk) 06:12, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Humorous

It is humorus that reference is made to several foreign dictionaries as preceding the OED, but not Webster's dictionary which was the standard for comprehensive English language dictionaries for much of the 19th century (in both America and England). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.158.38.6 (talk) 20:30, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

This doesn't seem substantiated by the entries here according to which there were several English dictionaries that preceded the Oxford project and Webster's was a dictionary of American English and a work of an entirely different order. LookingGlass (talk) 13:13, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

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Correction to Criticisms Section

This message is being posted on behalf of Oxford University Press by whom I am employed. I am asking the Wikipedia community for help with this issue as I am mindful of not violating Wikipedia’s COI guidelines.

There is a factual mistake under the ‘Criticisms’ section of this article where it states ‘The iOS version of the OED has used Twitter account access to falsely accuse legitimate users of pirating the software.’ There is not and has never been an OED app. This statement relates to a temporary problem experienced by some users of a third party app that used non-OED dictionary data licensed from OUP. The article which this statement references is also incorrect in referring to the OED and the original author has been notified.

We get regular customer queries about the availability of an OED app and we do not wish to create any confusion over what products we have available so please could this statement be removed from the OED article? All help is greatly appreciated

Regards, Stephen — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.63.239.14 (talk) 13:01, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Online version(s)?

Hello! What is the difference between OED.com and OxfordDictionaries.com? Thanks! BigSteve (talk) 11:07, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Burchfield

From the article: "Burchfield also broadened the scope to include developments of the language in English-speaking regions beyond the United Kingdom, including North America, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India, Pakistan, and the Caribbean." This recent Guardian article would seem to call that into question. - Jmabel | Talk 00:51, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Added a brief mention to this article and the piece on Burchfield. A check for other potential sources on this issue reveals that, so far, they are largely derived from the Guardian article. Philip Cross (talk) 11:25, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

"self-styled"?

Am I just reading too much into it, or does the term "self-styled" seem rather loaded when used the way it is in the opening paragraph? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.52.127.47 (talk) 01:25, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

You are too kind, it is snarky in tone. If a criticism needs to be made, it should be in the section provided for that. It is probably an accurate statement, but it is not balanced in tone with the rest of wiki entries where this could be said. Worse for the reputation of wikipedia is that in some regard they are in competition with the OED, and as such this kind of comment looks self-absorbed, and brings discredit on wiki. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.159.24.89 (talk) 21:05, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

This phrasing "...the self-styled premier dictionary of the English language" is insulting. The OED is generally regarded as the premier dictionary of the English language by anyone qualified to express an opinion. Arcanicus (talk) 08:48, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Right, I've been bold and tried to sort this one out. "Self-styled" is innaccurate and insulting and I have removed it. However " THE premier" is debatable, particularly in the USA where Webster's is preferred. I have therefore changed it to ""the premier British dictionary" which I hope is in line with concensus. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 11:34, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

OED as a physicists' source research

Physicists Explore The Rise And Fall Of Words. Apparently, some physicists used the OED as a great example of analyzing words. I think some links to an academic paper about this would improve this article. Komitsuki (talk) 18:13, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

OED2 template

Is there a template specifically for the second edition? I use a copy of it and don't want citations to incorrectly show OED3. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 17:40, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

I've just created {{OED1}} and {{OED2}} for this express purpose. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 21:28, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

New editor

According to http://public.oed.com/oed-editor-retirement-announcement/ John Simpson will soon retire as editor, being replaced (effective 1 November 2013) by Michael Proffitt. Mitch Ames (talk) 10:47, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Done; article needed though. Johnbod (talk) 11:32, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Correction

I have reverted the unwanted and untruthful edit of editor User:Dougweller regarding the nature of the dictionary. The current online edition states the following: "As a historical dictionary, the OED is very different from those of current English, in which the focus is on present-day meanings." [7] Kind regards to all lovers of truth. 81.106.127.14 (talk) 23:29, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Love it. "I disagree with you so you are a liar". Dougweller (talk) 06:57, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

That is not, as the brief online text from which you drew your quote makes clear, the sole purpose of the OED, nor is "descriptive" an antonym of "historic" - see Dictionary#Prescriptive vs. descriptive. Do you have a source for the progress of the new edition? If so, we could introduce that into the body with a citation and then update the lead; our Manual of Style gives sound guidance on that at WP:LEADCITE. In general, the lead section should summarise and be supported by material in the body of the article.

One thing does puzzle me; which edit did you revert? The only recent edits by Dougweller that I can see are those made after yours. NebY (talk) 09:50, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

An edit I made in May.[8] which modified this[9] edit by the IP. Dougweller (talk) 11:12, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Oh! Thanks, I couldn't see why the IP made all those changes but it's clearer now: they just disregarded the later work of other editors. NebY (talk) 12:07, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Copyright status

It is very strange that the article has nothing to say about the copyright status of older editions of this essential reference work of the English language. (Is there any free online searchable access to text of older editions?)-71.174.175.150 (talk) 15:11, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Afaik, no. Since the majority of the text is unchanged since the 1st edn, OUP would probably not favour that, though it must be out of copyright. If you are in the UK you should be able to get online access at home via your library. Johnbod (talk) 14:03, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

American contributors

It might (or might not) be worthy of note that the two most prolific contribbutors to the first edition were both Americans: Fitzedward Hall and W. C. Minor.76.126.195.34 (talk) 06:20, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Criticism section should be more general

The "Criticism" section should be expanded to describe more generally the impact, influence, and overall reception of the OED. 73.223.96.73 (talk) 05:55, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Which ENGVAR is this article written in?

Anyone have a problem with me adding Template:British English Oxford spelling to the top of this page? It seems that of all articles on English Wikipedia, this is the one that should most be written under these spelling guidelines. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:02, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Indeed - go ahead! Johnbod (talk) 15:21, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Disambiguation

Dudes OED is not only a dictionary. It's also oral epithelial dysplasia Office of Executive Director Office expiration date Online Event Display operational effectiveness demonstration optical emission detector / optical emission detection (related to optical emission spectroscopy) Optimal experiment design

And probably a good number of other. Do it, it's not my job. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.96.120.4 (talk) 09:37, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

... and yet it apparently is your job to search out expansions of initialisms in order to highlight perceived weaknesses in an online encyclopedia. However, as not one of those terms is (currently) the title of an article in Wikipedia, the issue doesn't arise, and disambiguation is unnecessary. Dude. GrindtXX (talk) 12:18, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

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question about Countdown

As I read it, the section on Countdown suggests that the show started giving the 20 volume 2nd edition away as a prize seven years before it was published.58.250.175.74 (talk) 04:59, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Descriptivist?

Surely the claim to be descriptivist is too controversial to be included without comment in the first sentence. Later in the article we see that Oxford University linguist Roy Harris criticised the OED for its prescriptivism. Of course, the OED's editors today are probably descriptivists, just as they say they are. But parts of the OED haven't been fully updated since the 19th century. A modern dictionary - and any descriptivist - will tell you that "in the ascendant" means "rising in power or influence" (ODO). The OED (latest online version) will tell you that this usage of the expression is "erroneous", since "in the ascendant" is supposed to mean "supreme". The OED is in fact full of references to "erroneous" and "incorrect" usages. Similarly, for example, if you look up "each", the usage of the plural verb after the pronoun (as in "Each of these verses have five feet") is described as "incorrect" (OED online, latest). You can agree or disagree with that judgement, but there's nothing descriptivist about it. 86.151.173.117 (talk) 13:46, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Most entries in the OED haven't been updated at all since the 19th century, and very few "fully". Most changes since the original edition have been additions, and a full review and rewrite process only began in the last few years (starting in the middle of the alphabet); it will take decades to complete at the current rate. Johnbod (talk) 15:03, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Exactly. That just reinforces my point. To describe it as "a descriptivist dictionary", as Wikipedia does currently, is misleading. The descriptivist nature (or not) of the dictionary must be judged by its current contents, not by its current editorial policy. Besides which, even if "descriptivist" were an accurate description of the current contents, which it isn't, calling the dictionary "descriptivist" would ignore its history, and the article should be about all editions of the OED, not just the most recent. 86.151.173.117 (talk) 15:59, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

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Voluuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuminous volumes

With a little twinge of regret, I am about to fix an error introduced by some IP almost a decade ago.

On 12 March 2008, the IP changed "four volumes of some 6,400 pages" to "four, 6,400-page volumes". As I write, this remains "four 6,400-page volumes".

This is pre-computing. It's about codices. Codices each having six thousand four hundred pages. Yeah, right.

I can only infer that in the intervening decade, the readers of this part of the article (and these have included me) have been extraordinarily -- uh, well, I listed some uncomplimentary adjectives here, but some people have thin skins, so perhaps not.

Incidentally, I neither have access to the cited source, nor time now to look through the article for similar horse droppings. -- Hoary (talk) 05:37, 13 February 2018; bowdlerized and augmented 05:44, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Incorrect definition

After "Ian Paterson (2003). A Dictionary of Colour (1st paperback ed.), London: Thorogood (published 2004), p. 73"

buff is a pale yellowish-brown colour; a light yellow; of the colour of buff leather which having regard to its proximity to human skin colour gave rise to the phrase ‘in the buff’ meaning ‘naked’. Also ‘buff-coloured’.

After "Oxford English Dictionary (OED)"

buff - Of the colour of buff leather; a light brownish yellow.

--Danvasilis (talk) 23:08, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure what edit you are proposing. Looking at the online OED there are two origins of "buff" – one from Old French meaning a blow (hence buffet, buffer and blind-man's-buff), the other from the French "buffle", a buffalo. From the latter meaning (first shown in "buff n2") section I refers to the animal and section II the leather. That section gives three uses: clothing, naked and a polishing wheel. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 08:28, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

I think Danvasilis isn't challenging the OED's etymologies, but its definition: the slight variation between "a light brownish yellow" and "a pale yellowish-brown colour". However, in my opinion those mean pretty much the same thing – or at least, any distinction is so minimal as to be meaningless. Even if the difference were more clear cut, we would have no reason to mention it in the article unless there was an explicit assertion in a reliable secondary source that the OED had got it wrong. GrindtXX (talk) 11:46, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

1933 Issue of 1st Edition

As part of the process of putting together a model citation for the 1933 issue of the 1st Edition I have located the following files. Do they merit inclusion in the article? There is already a table for the 1888-1933 issue of the edition on the page. If it is worthwhile adding, should all the content of the table below be added, or only some columns?

Feedback please, Skullcinema (talk) 11:33, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Vol.	Letters	URL	Letter page ranges
1	A-B	https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.99992	A 1-603/B 604-1240
2	C	https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.271839	C 1-1308
3	D-E	https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.271840	D 1-740/E 1-488
4	F-G	https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.271841	F 1-628/G 1-532
5	H-K	https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.147246	H 1-516/I 1-580/J 581-646/K 647-758
6	L-M	https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.271836	L 1-528/M 1-820
7	N-Poy	https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.99996	N 1-277/O 1-356/P-Poy 357-1216
8	Poy-Ry	https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.120831	Poy-Py 1217-1676/Q 1-80/R-Ry 81-936
9	S-Soldo	https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.271834	S-Sh 1-800/Si-Soldo 1-386
10	Sole-Sz	https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.120833	Sole-St 387-1211/Su-Sz 1-396
11	T-U	https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.271837	T-Th 1-404/Ti-Tz 1-565/U 1-493
12	V-Z	https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.271838	V 1-332/W-We 1-334/Wh-Wy 1-400/X 1-7/Y 8-83/Z 84-105
Supplement	A-Z	https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.120834	A-K 1-542/L-Z 1-325

That looks most worthwhile. But I'm surprised to see it there. I hadn't realized that it was in the public domain, and it's not obvious that not being in the public domain would, in practice, stop anyone from uploading it. (After all, we read "Anyone with a free account can upload media to the Internet Archive.") Where is its presence advertised? (How did you know where to find it?) -- Hoary (talk) 13:03, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

The source appears to be within the Indian public libraries system; if you follow any of the links, the information for each of the volumes is included. I couldn't find anything authoritative on the copyright status of the 1st edition of the OED out there (ie definitively stating that it _was_ out of copyright). But as the OED has no authors, only editors and a publisher, I have taken the view that (in the UK at least) the copyright should have expired in 2003 for this issue. Note that the current page already links to content published in 1933 (Supplement) so it is an extension of that policy. I am happy to go with whatever is common policy for the page or across Wikipedia (it's one of the reasons I posted here rather than direct to the article). As for how I found it, it just required a bit of ferreting around in the Internet Archive in order to stitch together a full set of volumes. Skullcinema (talk) 14:47, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Go ahead and include it. But I think it could be a bit neater. I'd link the volume number, so for example not

| 1|| A-B || https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.99992 || A 1-603/B 604-1240

but instead

| [https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.99992 1] || A-B || A 1-603/B 604-1240

and there could be better alternatives. -- Hoary (talk) 07:44, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

OK, I'll give it a week from the 22nd for any other comments to come in and then do so. Skullcinema (talk) 10:58, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

You mentioned "putting together a model citation". Have you seen {{Cite OED1}} and the closely related {{Cite OED2}}? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 15:45, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

I hadn't, thank you for pointing them out. I'll take a look at them and make any comments on their respective talk pages if necessary. Skullcinema (talk) 10:58, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Contested deletion

This page should not be speedily deleted because... (your reason here) --2607:F2C0:E7A2:2C:1E:3CA:63E3:7894 (talk) 23:22, 1 February 2020 (UTC) it is reference material.

Don't worry; it won't be. -- Hoary (talk) 23:29, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

citation/cite book

@Martin of Sheffield: "citation" gives Ogilvie, Sarah (2013), Words of the World: a global history of the Oxford English Dictionary (hardcover), Cambridge University Press, ISBN 978-1107605695 Harv warning: There is no link pointing to this citation. The anchor is named CITEREFOgilvie2013. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 21:22, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

The only reason you see that message is because you have importScript('User:Ucucha/HarvErrors.js'); in your common.js. What you should have done is add |ref=none to the citations to turn off the linkage. Give me a couple of minutes and I'll do it for you. Regards, Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:22, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Solecisms and logical problems in the "Historical Nature" section

The first paragraph of the "Historical Nature" section begins:

As a historical dictionary, the Oxford English Dictionary explains words by showing their development rather than merely their present-day usages. Therefore, it shows definitions in the order that the sense of the word began being used, including word meanings which are no longer used.

"In the order that the sense of the word began being used" is awkward because no order is identified within which one single sense of a word can have begun to be used. The implied personification of "the OED explains" is inaccurate, particularly because a dictionary does not "explain" words, and neither does a dictionary "show" definitions. "Rather than merely their" is not English idiom. I suggest:

As a historical dictionary, the Oxford English Dictionary features entries in which the earliest ascertainable recorded sense of a word, whether current or obsolete, is presented first, and each additional sense is presented in historical order according to the date of its earliest ascertainable recorded use.

The next two sentences run:

Each definition is shown with numerous short usage quotations; in each case, the first quotation shows the first recorded instance of the word that the editors are aware of and, in the case of words and senses no longer in current usage, the last quotation is the last known recorded usage. This allows the reader to get an approximate sense of the time period in which a particular word has been in use and additional quotations help the reader to ascertain information about how the word is used in context, beyond any explanation that the dictionary editors can provide.

A definition is not just "shown with" quotations—it is illustrated by them. The first quotation does not present the "first recorded instance of the word," for that means the first time that the word was recorded in any sense whatever. Instead, it presents the earliest recorded usage of the word in the particular sense already defined. "That the editors are aware of" is wordy; wordy also is the general discussion of the temporal indications. The expression "additional quotations" implies that the first quotations given contain information about the historical span of usage, and the additional ones info about the usage in context, but this is logically incoherent—it is not possible to quote a sentence in which a word is used and not "give information" about its use in context. Indeed, if a quotation "gives information" about usage "beyond" the explanation of the word in that sense by the entry's author, then the author has not defined the particular sense of the word, since in defining a word one necessarily identifies the conceptual limits within which is captured every conceptual element that is part of this sense and from which nothing that is part of this sense has been omitted. Use of the verb "to ascertain" is also unfortunate, for it means to establish with certainty after performance of whatever cognitive labors the original situation of cognitive uncertainty made necessary. So, again, if a reader needed quotations "to ascertain" the use of a word in context, the lexicographer would not actually have defined the word in that particular sense. The passage might run:

Following each definition are several brief illustrating quotations presented in chronological order from that earliest ascertainable use of the word in that sense to the last ascertainable use for an obsolete sense, to indicate both its life span and the time since its desuetude, or to a relatively recent use for current ones.

This captures all the information the author or authors of the original two sentences wished to convey: (i) the fact that quotations follow the definition; (ii) the general illustrative function of the quotations; (iii) the lexicographical warrant for the choice of quotations in the two terminal historical positions; and (iv) the function of the presentation of the quotations in their historical span. Wordwright (talk) 23:11, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Wordwright, I can disagree with some of what you say. (For example, "a dictionary does not 'explain' words": Call this a personification if you wish, but constructions such as this are widely used, are easily understood, and -- at least in the context of books rather than of "artificial intelligence" -- are unlikely to be misunderstood.) But I agree with most. So I'd say: Go ahead; "be bold". -- Hoary (talk) 23:24, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Hoary Thanks for your observations! I'll give it a go. By the way, why is my signature in red, and yours in blue? It seems that blue is the norm, but all I do to sign is to click the button after "Sign your posts on talk pages." Wordwright (talk) 15:41, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

@Wordwright: It's in red because it is a link to a non-existent page. If you create you user page the link will go blue. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 16:10, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

@Martin of Sheffield: Thanks! I'll change that. Now, I'm sorry, but your response has prompted another question: I see that your response begins with opening double archer's bow brackets, then has "ping," then a straight slash, then my name, and then closes with closing double archer's bow brackets; is that why I got an alert? I've had exchanges on the talk page before, and either others have used it and I've never noticed it, or there are other ways to get some sort of notice of a reply—Hoary didn't use it, but somehow I was made aware that he had responded. So what's the deal? Wordwright (talk) 18:54, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

{{ping}} specifically tells the system to alert the target user. Just mentioning someone may also let them know that they were mentioned. I like your phrase "archer's bow brackets", I've not heard braces called that before. Most people these days seem to call parentheses, brackets and braces just "brackets", and then have to qualify them as "round", "square" and "curly". Don't they teach the correct names anymore? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 19:07, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

@Martin of Sheffield: Thanks again for the explanation. I'm glad you like the phrase, but the truth is that I'm getting old, and sometimes a name will hover at the edge of my mind, but no effort of mine to bring it front and center succeeds, and eventually it pops forth when I'd forgotten I had tried; at other times I can't even get it to hover—I couldn't get the name "brace" even to hover, so I just made something up. Since you ask about teaching correct names, you must be near my age—and I, too, wonder what teachers are teaching when they teach English. A few year ago a friend of mine said that teachers today are quite well trained in getting a point across, they just don't know what the real point is. Wordwright (talk) 18:50, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Problems in the section "Early Editors"

Consider these two paragraphs from the section "Early Editors":

Thereupon Furnivall became editor; he was enthusiastic and knowledgeable, but temperamentally ill-suited for the work. Many volunteer readers eventually lost interest in the project, as Furnivall failed to keep them motivated. Furthermore, many of the slips were misplaced.

Furnivall believed that, since many printed texts from earlier centuries were not readily available, it would be impossible for volunteers to efficiently locate the quotations that the dictionary needed. As a result, he founded the Early English Text Society in 1864 and the Chaucer Society in 1868 to publish old manuscripts. Furnivall's preparatory efforts lasted 21 years and provided numerous texts for the use and enjoyment of the general public, as well as crucial sources for lexicographers, but they did not actually involve compiling a dictionary. Furnivall recruited more than 800 volunteers to read these texts and record quotations. While enthusiastic, the volunteers were not well trained and often made inconsistent and arbitrary selections. Ultimately, Furnivall handed over nearly two tons of quotation slips and other materials to his successor.

In the first paragraph we are told of three of Furnival's failings: he had the wrong temperament; he failed to keep volunteers motivated; many slips—things mentioned without identification—were misplaced. In the second paragraph, we are told that he spent twenty-one years in preparatory efforts, that he founded a scholarly society, and that he recruited 800 volunteers—statements that hardly comport with the clam about his temperament; the earlier claim that volunteers weren't motivated is contradicted by the claim that they were enthusiastic but not competent; and if Furnivall handed two freaking tons of slips to his successor, it's hard to take seriously the vague statement that "many" slips were misplaced.

Since it was the two societies who published texts, the publications were not part of Furnivall's efforts; what he spent twenty-one years doing is not specified, but I imagine that he spent a lot of time ordering and reviewing the slips that his 800 volunteers submitted to him. We are not told against what framework of criteria he or someone else evaluated the pertinence and historical status of quotations so that we can understand with what a selection was inconsistent and in defiance of what rule one as arbitrary, but we cannot know that the volunteers made inconsistent and arbitrary selections unless Furnivall engaged in some critical, rectificatory consultations with his volunteers, or noticed that some volunteers' selections were judicious or had other virtues, etc. Similarly, we cannot know that slips were misplaced unless Furnivall kept a record of the receipt of slips from which volunteers recorded with what information so that, at some succeeding stage of critical review, he (or an assistant) could tell that slips whose receipt was recorded had gone missing—whereupon he would have requested replacement quotations.

Hence it is not relevant that his efforts did not constitute the activity of compiling the dictionary—in order actually to begin compiling the dictionary, you must first have gathered the material evidence necessary to determine just how many senses a word has, then one must subject the quotations and the senses to the various critical procedures necessary for the purposes of a historical dictionary. It seems to me that Furnivall acquitted himself well in the truly heroic undertaking of maintaining the general integrity of the work and labor placed in the scattered rights hands of 400 volunteers who did not know what the scattered left hands of another 400 volunteers were doing; all the more heroic because, over the course of those years, doubtless, he himself was engaged in a course of trial, error, and rectification in working out some of the magisterial critical principles necessary for happy regulation and consummation of the project.

I submit this revision for review:

Thereupon the enthusiastic and knowledgeable Furnivall became editor. Furnivall realized that, because many printed texts from earlier centuries were not readily available, and because a good deal of lexical evidence resided in a trove of unpublished manuscripts, his volunteers lacked the material wherewith to meet the requirement that some of the illustrative quotations represent the earliest ascertainable use of a word in a specific sense. Thus in 1864 and 1868 Furnivall founded, respectively, the Early English Text Society and the Chaucer Society to publish old manuscripts. Over the course of twenty-one years the two societies published numerous texts both for the enjoyment of the general public and as sources for lexicographers, and during that time, Furnivall recruited 800 volunteers to read these materials and record quotations on paper slips. Although enthusiastic, these readers were not well trained, and often made inconsistent and arbitrary selections or misplaced slips. They were nothing if not prolific, however, for eventually Furnivall handed nearly two tons of quotation slips and other materials to his successor.

This version has the advantage of proper topical development and logical consistency, but I think it would be much stronger if a concrete account of the actual editorial work that Furnivall did were included. I will try to find the time to do the proper research, but perhaps others have already done research that they can draw upon for the improvements. Wordwright (talk) 18:29, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

As the infreqency of my recent contributions to Wikipedia may suggest, I'm distracted by pressing matters elsewhere (only indirectly the pestilence, as it happens). So only a brief comment for now (and one that will avoid the important matters). "Thereupon" and "nothing if not [adjective]" hardly fit the register of English used in articles, and "wherewith" is I think a museum piece. While this isn't the Simple English Wikipedia (which "is a thing"), we do try to avoid excesses. ¶ But please don't let this minor comment deter you from continuing to apply your critical intelligence to this inadequate article. -- Hoary (talk) 23:06, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Sorry to disagree with you Hoary, but both "thereupon" and "nothing if not ..." feature in both common speech and written English. I would agree that the bare "wherewith" is (in my experience) uncommon, except in combinations such as "wherewithal". A lot though depends upon age and locality, and in particular those who have learnt English as a second language. It is an irony that the latter often have a better command of formal English than many native speakers. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:26, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Martin of Sheffield, yes, "thereupon" and "nothing if not [Adj]" are indeed commonplace. This doesn't mean that they're the most appropriate choices for the text of WP articles. BTW, I claim no expertise in formal English. -- Hoary (talk) 10:40, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Martin of Sheffield Hoary I also agree that "wherewith" is musty, and that "with which" would be more appropriate. I will also concede that "Upon Coleridge's death" would be less stuffy than "thereupon," which came to mind only because my argument against "thence" required me to identify the adverb with the proper semantic sense—I wasn't thinking about style. As for "nothing if not," it really is appropriate—with the expression you concede that a thing whose shortcomings you've just done itemizing does have a virtue, and it usually conveys a slight sense of amusement or surprise, so in this instance, after the list of the volunteers' weaknesses and the mention of the misplaced slips, the last thing you'd expect to be true of those seeming no-account volunteers is that they should have produced two tons of material—the implication being that Furnivall considered the material ready for a next editorial phase—even if the phase would involve a more sophisticated course of trial-and-error. Don't you think? Wordwright (talk) 18:49, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

This article states that Furnivall retained Murray as editor and that they eventually approached the Oxford University Press about publishing it. The Wikipedia article on James Murray says that the OUP interviewed him in 1878 and retained him as editor a year later. Two very different stories. They should be reconciled. I left a similar note on the Talk page for “James Murray”.Merry medievalist (talk) 12:48, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Which edition?

This image of Robert Kaske shows him with a bookcase filled with what look to be volumes of the OED. Can anyone confirm that this is the case? If so, any idea what edition it is? Thanks, --Usernameunique (talk) 06:03, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

@Usernameunique: Thanks for reading the article and posting an interesting question, however, Wikipedia's talk pages are not intended for general discussions of the topic, like a chat page, but for editor discussion about improving the Wikipedia article itself, as per WP:TALK#USE and WP:NSM. May I suggest posting your question to the Wikipedia Reference Desk? Matuko (talk) 10:13, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

If it was shot in 1974 how could it be anything but the first edition? Nardog (talk) 10:43, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't know what it is – clearly a major multi-volume dictionary/encyclopedia/reference work of some sort – but it isn't the OED, which has never been published in a one-initial-letter-per-volume format, as this (mostly) appears to be. GrindtXX (talk) 11:37, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

It is in fact the OED (back when it was still called the NED). See discussion and links at ~~WP:RD/Humanities#Identity of a large multi-volume reference work~~, which in a few days from now will be moved to WP:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 September 19#Identity of a large multi-volume reference work. --142.112.221.246 (talk) 23:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Countdown

Can anyone clarify and correct this edit by an IP? The article now appears to say that the OED was regularly awarded as a prize on Countdown until 2010, and was last awarded in 2021. So what happened between 2010 and 2021? Neither of the cited sources suggest anything changed in 2010. GrindtXX (talk) 12:12, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Incorrect Information

We can't say it is principal because it is largest and most popular. Being largest or being most popular doesn't make it principal, which means main. We should change "principal" to "largest and most popular" or something Petipoelattchi (talk) 15:13, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

It's claim to being the 'principal' historical dictionary of the English language is based on its length of publication, comprehensiveness and use as a scholarly reference. Its size is just a reflection of its content and its popularity is neither here nor there.

If you consider that the OED is not the principal historical dictionary of the English language, can you suggest which dictionary is? Skullcinema (talk) 23:04, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

First sentence needs changing

The current first sentence of the page states, "The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) is the principal historical dictionary of the English language, published by Oxford University Press (OUP)." I believe this needs changing. It repeats three words and provides a concept that any reasonable person already grasps by reading the title alone. Do we need to repeat that it is a dictionary and of the English language? I believe we can be more creative than using forceful redundancies and I don't think they are unavoidable as is the thesis in MOS:REDUNDANCY about this page.

Per the policy Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary#The dictionary definition trap, A good definition is not circular, a synonym or a near synonym, overly broad or narrow, ambiguous, figurative, or obscure. When a descriptive title is self-explanatory, such as history of Malta, a definition may not be needed.

Per MOS:INTRO, ""Editors should avoid lengthy paragraphs and overly specific descriptions". The sentence tries its best to be so overly descriptive that it feels it is unavoidable to use redundancies in its effort.

Per MOS:FIRST, ""Try to not overload the first sentence by describing everything notable about the subject. Instead use the first sentence to introduce the topic, and then spread the relevant information out over the entire lead." We could use some other words to introduce the topic, it is not necessary we use redundancies and circular definitions.

Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 23:04, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

So (stifles yawn), what do you propose? Johnbod (talk) 00:03, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

The Oxford English Dictionary is one of the largest semantic tools of its kind.^[1]
The Oxford English Dictionary is a comprehensive resource that traces the historical development of the English language and describes its usage throughout the world.

Thinker78 (talk) 00:49, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree that the publisher's name is not really germane to the encyclopædic importance of the dictionary, after all it was created under the ægis of the Philological Society and initially published by Clarendon Press. That aside, as the first sentence of the article is provided as a good example in the text of MOS:FIRST it would seem that the editors of MOS:LEAD, at least, don't appear to have a problem with it's current form. Looking at your two suggestions; #1 - what are you going to link "semantic tool" to?; #2 you use 19 words in place of 8, is that really improving the readability and clarity of the first sentence? Skullcinema (talk) 15:28, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Clarendon Press is just an imprint (sub-brand) of OUP, used in various ways over the years. Johnbod (talk) 11:47, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

At the risk of running off topic, isn't it more accurate to say that both are imprints of Oxford University? As OUP is just a trading name, established some time after The Clarendon Press. Skullcinema (talk) 15:14, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Not really. Their legal set-up is a tad opaque, but the Clarendon Press comes under the OUP Delegates, without its own set. Anyway, off the point here, & I think OUP does need to be at the start. Johnbod (talk) 18:01, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm glad you agree with me. Could you explain why you feel that OUP should be included in the first sentence? Skullcinema (talk) 09:52, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

In #1, would link "semantic tool" to semantics. In #2 I simply copied the current second sentence of the lead. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 00:25, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Re #1 - The term "semantic tool" is used precisely 0 times in the WP article Semantics and according to Google ngrams [10] overall is about 10x less commonly used than the term "historical dictionary". Ultimately the structure of the first sentence is "item name is a type of item", ontologically speaking, with "historical dictionary" being closer than "semantic tool". Almost all people, when presented with a copy of the OED and asked to describe what it is, would call it a dictionary rather than a tool, I venture.

Re #2 - So you are proposing rewriting the whole first para of the lead section and removing the link to historical dictionary if I am correct? Skullcinema (talk) 10:00, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for looking into it. Can you check my original post about my rationale. I mean if we tell someone to look up a word in an Oxford English Dictionary, the person likely knows that it is a dictionary and of the English language. I don't think there is a need to repeat such information. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 22:19, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Actually I think there is a case for reinforcing this right at the start. Note that Oxford dictionary goes somewhere else, listing many Oxford publications, many of which are "a dictionary and of the English language". Johnbod (talk) 23:10, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, but still, Oxford English Dictionary. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 00:04, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

I may not have got my point across. Given access to a copy and asked what it is, I posit that they would reply "a book" or, more likely, "a dictionary" and not "a semantic tool" or "a comprehensive resource." I think if you want to alter the first sentence you are going to have to alter the sentence structure rather than make word substitutions. Skullcinema (talk) 09:58, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Good points. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 19:30, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) is ~~the principal historical~~ a diachronic dictionary of the English language, published by Oxford University Press (OUP)." Diachronic distinguishes it from others, like Webster, etc. Principal=main or first order of importance which may be the perspective for some, but not on a global scale. Atsme 💬 📧 11:39, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Throwing in the term diachronic would seem to go against MOS:FIRST, no? I don't really think it is well-known or -used outside linguistic analysis. In fact the WP article describing it is only a stub. Skullcinema (talk) 14:57, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

But the redundancies... Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 00:26, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Personally (and, it seems, like others) I think the definition is absolutely fine as it stands. "Diachronic" is an obscure jargon term that will mean nothing to most readers, and that they will have to investigate further; far better is "historical dictionary", which also has a technical meaning to the informed, but the general tenor of which is clear enough to the uninformed. Nor do I see any redundancies. "Oxford" and "English" are both part of the title, but it needs to be clarified (again, for the benefit of the casual uninformed reader) that "Oxford" alludes to its publication by OUP (and not just to the fact that it happens to be published in Oxford, or is a name picked at random to make it sound posher, as is the case with many Webster's dictionaries); and also that it is a dictionary of the (worldwide) English language, and not just a dictionary that happens to be published in England. "Principal" is also a valid adjective to include: the OED has no formal authority, but it is widely perceived within the British English-speaking world as being as authoritative and definitive as can be. So no changes necessary. GrindtXX (talk) 11:50, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't see why Oxford, English, dictionary are words that need to be repeated necessarily. I mean, aren't there other options where repeated words are not used? Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 20:44, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

@Dorrough618, Beggarsbanquet, and Beggarsbanquet:

I don't see anything wrong with it, and it is a succinct and accurate first sentence without unnecessary promotional language (is "comprehensive guide" etc). Yes, dictionary is repeated from the article title but note that it links to historical dictionary, which is different from a standard dictionary. Therefore it is not redundant. Coming up with a synonym for a simple noun like dictionary is just unnecessary. Sorry, sometimes words need to be repeated in encyclopedias for a proper summary. Every first sentence in every article on a football club includes both Football Club and that it is a football club. Another example is Michelin Guide: "The Michelin Guides (French: Guide Michelin [ɡid miʃlɛ̃]) are a series of guide books that have been published by the French tyre company Michelin since 1900." Note repeat of both Michelin and guide. The publisher of a prominent book or magazine is an important fact that belongs in the first sentence, and if it happens to include the same word also in the title, that doesn't change its relevance. —Мандичка^YO 😜 18:41, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for all the input. Although I don't agree with the current status of the first sentence, I have no choice but accept the overwhelming consensus (*sheds a tear*). Best regards, Thinker78 (talk) 22:45, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

References

^ https://mashable.com/article/lgbtq-words-oxford-english-dictionary-2022 | The world's largest English dictionary got an LGBTQ update in 2022

[1] ttps://mashable.com/article/lgbtq-words-oxford-english-dictionary-2022 | The world's largest English dictionary got an LGBTQ update in 2022

[1]