Talk:O Antiphons

English versions

People seem to be intent on "correcting" the English versions of the O antiphons that I have supplied in the article. Three reasons why I don't think this is a good idea:

1. The people who do so rarely change the introduction to the section, which names the source of the English versions, namely Common Worship.
2. The changes are often half-hearted, creating something partway between a natural-sounding English version and an accurate translation.
3. The purpose of the versions as they currently stand is to provide an example of the O antiphons as they are now used in an English liturgy.

If you think a translation should be provided as well or instead of these English versions, then please do it properly. Don't fiddle around with the words and make good English versions into bad translations, making the introduction to the section innacurate into the bargain.

DTOx (talk) 20:54, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Antiphons On the Benedictus

I was wondering if there was a citation for the following sentence: "The Monday through Saturday which fall on the days of the O Antiphons also have their own antiphons for the psalms of Lauds, rather than repeating the antiphons of the previous Sunday, as is otherwise done in Advent." I pray the hours regularly and do not believe the last part of the sentence to be true. That is to say, per my perusal of the current Liturgy of the Hours, the Psalms during Morning Prayer (Lauds) outside of December 17-24 have their own antiphons, not derived from the previous Sunday. For example:

Sunday, Advent I, Morning Prayer: Ant 1: On that day sweet wine will flow from the mountains, milk and honey from the hills, alleluia; Ant 2: The mountains and hills wills ing praise to God; all the trees of the forest will clap their hands, for he is coming, the Lord of a kingdom that lasts for ever, alleluia; Ant 3: A great prophet will come to jerusalem; of that people he will make a new creation.

Monday, Advent I, Morning Prayer: Ant 1: I lift up my heart to you, O Lord, and you will hear my morning prayer; Ant 2: We praise your glorious name, O Lord, our God; Ant 3: Adore the Lord in his holy court

Wednesday, Advent I, Morning Prayer: Ant1: O Lord, in your light we see light itself; Ant 2: O God, you are great and glorious; we marvel at your power; Ant 3: Exult in God's presence with hymns of praise.

Perhaps the practice in past editions of the Hours was to repeat the antiphons from the previous Sunday, but the language in the article implies that is the case now. What is unique, to some extent, about the Psalms and Canticles of weekdays that fall between December 17-24 is that they have antiphons Proper to those days, that are not the same ones taken from the Four-Week Psalter.

The other question I had is why this sentence is included under the title "Antiphons on the Benedictus," as it is not about antiphons for the Canticle of Zechariah (Benedictus). Also, why is the section "Antiphons on the Benedictus" included in the article on the "O Antiphons," as the Benedictus does not take any of the O Antiphons, and there are many other days throughout the year that the antiphon to the Canticle of Zechariah is proper.

Please forgive the wordiness and any breach in wikiquette, as this is my very first editorial posting. The antiphons cited are from the Liturgy of the Hours, Volume I: Advent Season and Christmas Season. Catholic Book Publishing Corp., New York: 1975. --KevinChristopher (talk) 07:44, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Image used for O Sapientia

This is the incipit of the Book of Wisdom, which begins Diligite justitiam, qui judicatis terram. (Love justice, you that are the judges of the earth.) The first letter is therefore a "d" rather than an "o". It thus has nothing whatsoever to do with the O Antiphon O Sapientia itself, other than the name of the Book, and I think the link should be removed. Safebreaker (talk) 21:31, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Boethius quote

It'd be nice to get a reference to where Boethius mentions the O antiphons. Rwflammang (talk) 18:10, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Maybe Consolatio V, "usque ad finem fortiter et disponit"? Rwflammang (talk) 18:39, 17 December 2010 (UTC) I suspect what is meant is Cons. Phil III.12

I think I found it, Cons III.12.22: Est igitur summum, [Philosophia] inquit, bonum quod regit cuncta fortiter suauiterque disponit. A reference to O Sapientia? Or just to Book of Wisdom 8:1? Rwflammang (talk) 19:00, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

• Wisdom 8:1. adtingit enim a fine usque ad finem fortiter et disponit omnia suaviter
• Isaias 28:29. et hoc a Domino Deo exercituum exivit ut mirabile faceret consilium et magnificaret iustitiam
• Ecclesiasticus 28:5. ego ex ore Altissimi prodivi primogenita ante omnem creaturam
• Antiphon: O Sapientia, quae ex ore Altissimi prodiisti, attingens a fine usque ad finem, fortiter suaviterque disponens omnia: veni ad docendum nos viam prudentiae

Rwflammang (talk) 19:09, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

If this is it, then I think it's pretty feeble. I'd say there's almost as much a chance as Boethius influencing the antiphon as the antiphon influencing Boethius. Rwflammang (talk) 19:11, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

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The other O antiphons

Why no mention of those beyond the number? There are twelve in the Hartker Codex volume 1 (St. Gall 390) on page/folio 41. Four more follow the eighth, O Virgino virginum, which I have given below.

9. O Gabriel nuntius caelorum qui januis clausis ad me intrasti et verbum nuntiasti concipies et paries Emmanuel vocabitur.
11. O rex pacifice tu ante saecula nate per auream egredere portam redemptor tuos visita et eos illuc revoca underuerunt per culpam.
12. O mundi domina regio exsemine orta ex tuo jam Christus percessit alvo tamquam sponsus de thalamo Hic jacet in presepio qui et sydera regit.
13. O Jerusalem civitas Dei summi leva in circuitu oculos tuos et vide Dominum Deum tuum Quia jam veniet solvere te avinculis.

Also, the article seems to imply that #8 O Virgino virginum is an English-tradition-only antiphon. The fact that it is present in Hartker, an authoritative 10th-century source from Switzerland, is proof otherwise. I encourage someone to find reliable information on its use outside of England, because this deserves to be mentioned.

--Coemgenuslcp (talk) 03:44, 14 December 2016 (UTC)