Talk:Norma Jean (band)

Other albums

There was no mention of the mewithoutYou split and also the Deluxe version of O God. Does anyone want to add the Deluxe O God?

• add any information on the deluxe edition to the regular o god page, but it does not belong in the discography section and certainly does not need its own page. Fezmar9 (talk) 00:11, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Two drummers?

• Does anyone know why they had two drummers playing at the 2006 Ozzfest Seattle show? -- BoaDrummer

• I don't know. Seems odd. they only had one playing the Toronto Ozzfest show. --Pookythegreat 20:10, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

• maybe it was matt putman?

I heard someone say something about a fan playing drums as well. Dunno.

• one was an auxillary set, to provide sounds and effects that may be present on an album, but are impossible to duplicate with a single drummer live. They had an aux. drummer at a show I was at on October 7th in Detroit.

Yes, it was in fact Matt Puttman Lorenwade (talk) 02:30, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

yea just saw that today thought it waz weird (Seth4000 (talk) 16:13, 13 March 2009 (UTC)) Seth4000

New Picture?

• This one is kinda old and does not have the newest lineup depicted.
• Yeah, maybe the Redeemer promo picture (where they're all grubby) would be more suited? 82.12.151.178 19:04, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Southern Rock

I don't flippin think so. Name one song by them that is southern rock.

MAN Their Entire new album is southern listen and see if you still disagree

I know its southern. I was speaking of how it's southern METAL. MAKE A PAGE FOR IT!

Redeemer might be considered southern for some of you guys, but if you think about it for a bit, is it actually that important?

AKnot 05:58, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

They are metalcore. Southern Metal/Rock is something like Maylene and the Sons of Disaster, definity NOT Norma Jean. You could also put them in the mathcore category, but they fit Metalcore more appropriately. IronCrow 00:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Hatebreed Comparison?

That has to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Hatebreed? Bless the Martyr? BtM was the album that had the most comparisons to Botch and even to Isis to some extent. I'm gonna remove that Hatebreed comment.

Fmalcangi 07:02, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

That whole section was unsourced, anyway. Someone could redo the comparisons, but have actual proof for the consensus view on the sound of the record. I don't think anyone who whas half a mind would have ever said they sound like Hatebreed.

Fmalcangi 07:06, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Emo

Some bastard put their genre as emo. Theyre not even close to emo so whoevers doing this should stop. Its probably some loser vandal who doesnt like this band and thinks itd be funny to put emo as their genre. I changed it back to metalcore. --Burger king 02:16, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Good job for paying attention to that. Just like southern rock before that, they are not emo.

AKnot 03:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Norma Jean Is Frickin Southern Metal not Metalcore. Metalcore is bands like Zao and Winter Solstice.

Maybe so but primarily they are metalcore/mathcore. Also Southern metal segment in Southern rock isn't enough. One more thing, your statement doesn't really prove anything.

AKnot 23:33, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

If they were southern metal they would be listed in www.metal-archives.com they are a Hardcore band with little metal influence.

Little metal influence? Apparently you've never listened to them because Norma Jean is definitly metal. IronCrow 21:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Sigh...Why don't we get some sources for the genres here? First off, because a band is not listed in MA does not mean they are not metal. Second of, Norma Jean is not metal. Metalcore/hardcore I would say. I am getting sources for it as we speak. --Wick3dd 03:32, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you not realize that Metalcore is a form of metal? IronCrow (talk) 03:12, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

wtf r yall talking about norma jean is metalcore/mathcore & metalcore is metal (Seth4000 (talk) 14:48, 25 March 2009 (UTC)) Seth4000

Tooth & Nail

Some whack-job put their record company as Tooth & Nail. They were never on it, but they were on their division, Solid State Records, which supports HEAVIER Christian music that T&N. I deleted T&N.--HappyBoy 18:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)HappyBoy

Well I put it in there. Calling a whack-job is a bit too much. I put it there since they are part of Tooth & Nail (not exactly but noneoftheless part of it) since they manufacture the records.

AKnot 00:31, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Well They aren't really metalcore eitherMaylene777 15:17, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Wrong topic. Also since they are mathcore, they are metalcore.

AKnot 00:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Heartcore genre.

The genre[1] edited recently has been removed for not having enough information about itself.

Also Norma Jean is Metalcore/Mathcore; if they were Hardcore or Post-Hardcore, heartcore would be considered.

AKnot 01:14, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The name subsection has no sources cited. Anyone wanna fix that?

68.225.46.115 00:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

The Name

The band was originally named "Luti-Kriss". To avoid confusion with the rapper "Ludacris", who happened to be from the same area, a name change was in order. In addition, a name change was a good opportunity to progress from the music of "Luti-Kriss". Marilyn Monroe did spark the idea, but they had a whole list of names they were trying to pick from. The word "pattern" happened to be in a couple of those names, so the word "pattern" had a special meaning that the band wanted to incorporate into a new name. In spite of Norma Jean being on a list of potential names among other names that used the word "pattern", the initial vocalist for the band, Josh Scogin, looked up the meaning of the word Norma and discovered that it means "patterns". The band agreed it was a strange coincidence, because Norma Jean was among their favorite names, but it had little to no meaning. They then looked up the meaning for the word "Jean", and found that it means "God’s grace and mercy". Together then, the name means "patterns of God’s grace and mercy".

I removed this text because 1) it was unsourced 2) it is poorly written & 3) "Norma" does not mean "patterns" and "Jean" does not mean "God's grace and mercy". --Awesome 04:47, 25 February 2007 (UTC) They said in an interview that that's why they picked it.

Although I was skeptical at first, that paragraph is true. Just google "Norma Jean patterns of God's grace and mercy". Tons and tons of sources, mostly interviews with the band. Maybe someone should rewrite that and source it? I would do it, but I don't really wish to take the time for a band that I consider mediocre haha. --Wick3dd 03:29, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Hardcore

Well they can fall under the Metalcore genre but their music is more on the side of Toughguy hardcore and has little to no metal elements.

Uh... Have you ever listened to them?IronCrow 00:54, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I really wouldn't put them under Toughguy. Metalcore maybe, but thast such a broad label. I really think the genre that fits them the most is mathcore.

Rapcore

Im standing by the word, Norma Jean IS Rapcore.

How? Examples? AKnot 08:12, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Really? haha, name a song. IronCrow 05:02, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Vandal

Some one came and changed the genre and city. I changed the city back to the right one, not sure what genres should be changed back too.

Drummer left the band

The drummer Daniel Davison has left the band as of Sept 20, 2007. http://www.normajeannoise.com/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.192.21.42 (talk) 13:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

learn reading. --JD de {æ} 17:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Not Vandalism

Sorry, I was using the Norma Jean page as a base for a different band, and accidentally posted it in Norma Jean's... Sorry again :P —Preceding unsigned comment added by Acid 1 (talk • contribs) 06:08, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

The Almighty Norma Jean Vinyl Boxset

i cant find any record of this being it's name, or of it having an actual name. on interpunk on vinyl collective it's just referred to as the "norma jean 4 disc collection" with a collage of their album art. does anyone actually have this collection that can confirm this? otherwise i think the "almighty" should be removed. Fezmar9 (talk) 21:48, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

BBQ sauce

i read somewhere (i cant find it anymore sadly) that they have their own style of BBQ sauce called "oh god, the BBQ sauce." is there any truth to this because i cant find any proof? its believable due to their love of BBQ sauce but i still want proofWhitey138 (talk) 21:50, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

sorry for not being able to give you a source but it's true. their label did a competition in which one could win the sauce. i don't know what it was called but it was a norma jean bbq sauce. ah, wait: here it is. --JD de {æ} 17:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Band starting year

why would you say they formed in 1997. They were Luti-kriss. Regardless of lineup, they are still a different band. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Acid 1 (talk • contribs) 08:15, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Genre

Christian metalcore was recently deleted and replaced with Metalcore. I agree with this. It should be noted on the bio that they are Christians, but CHRISTIAN is a belief, NOT a genre. Lorenwade (talk) 23:29, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the same thing happened with As I Lay Dying and Underoath, after a long discussion. --Kmaster (talk) 01:39, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I think that should be a standard for the rest of them too! :) Lorenwade (talk) 03:17, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I second that ;)--Kmaster (talk) 04:45, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll throw in a third to that as well. ŁittleÄlien¹⁸² (_talk\^contribs) 22:37, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I think they shouldn't be classified as Mathcore. They are certainly Metalcore but Mathcore is a bit of a stretch. I've never heard a song that comes anywhere close to Mathcore by Norma Jean. User:AudioTsunami —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.199.204.198 (talk) 18:30, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Never heard of christcore? Christian metalcore is just one other name —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.229.150.253 (talk) 09:06, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Tours

What about the co-headline they did with Saosin in I believe it was 2007. I cant remember for the life of me who was supporting them though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.171.168.56 (talk) 23:19, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Luti-Kriss redirect

I believe Luti-Kriss should redirect here. They are the same band; but because the bass player changed we need another article? Can we reach a consensus on this issue? If not, I will be bold and make the change myself. I think it would be fun to clean up this article; I did just that to The Chariot. Please discuss the issue here. -- Noj r (talk) 21:21, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

When I agreed to this redirect at Talk:Luti-Kriss in September 2009, I kind of thought you were going to write a new article shortly thereafter. It's now eight months after the fact, and no new article yet. While I am not trying to rush your work, I do believe this may not be the best decision anymore. Luti-Kriss should probably still exist until information about that band is properly merged here. Just simply redirecting axed any links to 5ep (album) and Throwing Myself, the two releases under the name Luti-Kriss, and disposed of line-up information during that time period. I think the redirect should be undone until you create your re-write of this article. Fezmar9 (talk) 00:29, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Scottie's return?

When is Scottie Henry returning? Does anyone know..? --Johnnybravo44 (talk) 20:59, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Clayton Holyoak as touring drummer

http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/clayton-holyoak indicates he's agreed to tour with the band. He's also the drummer for Fear Before, who are on hiatus, so it's very reasonable. There's your WP:BURDEN. "Consider adding a citation needed tag as an interim step. Editors might object if you remove material without giving them time to provide references. It has always been good practice to try to find and cite supporting sources yourself." --Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:47, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I did try to find references myself, and I did come across that specific hit on Google. The problem is, that's just some 23-year-old kid's tumblr account. That source holds just as much weight as me logging into my own twitter account and saying Holyoak isn't in Norma Jean. Per WP:USERGENERATED: "Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason self-published media—whether books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, personal pages on social networking sites, Internet forum postings, or tweets—are largely not acceptable." Fezmar9 (talk) 03:53, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

I am shocked and appalled that someone who has been editing for as long as you have would ever deem this as a reliable source of information. Only under very specific circumstances are social networking sites acceptable as sources, and this is far from one of those circumstances. Blogs are neither published, nor authoritative. This is a microblog posting from some kid named Austin who lives in Washington. He doesn't provide any evidence for his claim, nor does he appear to have any connection to the subject. The posting is also from May 15. This would suggest that Holyoak has been working with Norma Jean for at least two months now. And yet, in those two months, this one single blog posting is the only source to make this claim. Per WP:BLOGS, "Take care when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so. Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer." Norma Jean never made a statement about this. Their label and management never made a statement about this. Holyoak never made a statement about this. No news organizations made a statement about this. Please remove this information from this article until an authoritative and published source can be found. There is no deadline for Wikipedia to be complete, it's not going to hurt anyone or anything to wait until this information can be properly verified. In fact, you could even submit this blog post to a publication like Alternative Press as a news tip. A larger publication would fact-check this information by calling up the band or management or label before publishing an article. Then you could have your proper verification and AP would probably be thrilled breaking this story. Fezmar9 (talk) 22:21, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Whatever. It's not important information and I'm tired of your personal attacks. It's a verifiable source and not earth-shattering to leave in. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:47, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Band members as of June 2013

I'd have to say that 90% of the edits to this article in the last year, outside of genre fiddling, have pertained to who is actually in Norma Jean right now — almost all of them have been unsourced changes. I'd like to place a template in the members section, maybe Template:Disputed, to let the readers know the information may not be accurate. As soon as Norma Jean's new album is publicly announced, there will be a press release explaining who is currently in the band and it will likely clear up any confusion that currently exists about former members. I imagine that will happen about two months from now, but for now, I think the readers should know by way of some disclaimer or template that the information could be false or outdated. Thoughts? Fezmar9 (talk) 19:17, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:56, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I am the one that just made the band member update to include John Finnegan. I can insure that the current line up is accurate as I am a member of Norma Jeans management team at Blood Company. TheKeviKev125 (talk) 21:49, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

First off, you should familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's Policies and Guidelines regarding a possible conflict of interest. In general, editing a subject that you're connected with is heavily frowned upon and could result in your account being blocked, depending on what you're contributing. It's generally recommend that editors who have a close connection just stick to commenting on talk pages, and not actually edit articles. Second, Wikipedia is supported by published, authoritative sources. Even if this is the true lineup of Norma Jean, Wikipedia would prefer to have some sort of published documentation supporting that. Please also familiarize yourself with Wikipedia's policy on Verification. That being said, are you, as the band's management, familiar with any published articles that discuss the current state of Norma Jean's lineup? Fezmar9 (talk) 22:05, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I do truly apologize for that. I am very, very new to Wikipedia and in no way meant to violate any policies or procedures of the website. There are no current published articles that discuss the new line up, no. The only thing I can recommend is that the bands Facebook has been updated with the current line up. Again, my apologies, and will refrain from updating any articles for our artists moving forward. TheKeviKev125 (talk) 22:11, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

It's perfectly understandable. No one expects any new user to know any of the seemingly endless list of policies that exist here. I've been editing in my free time for 5+ years now, and there's several policies that pop up that are news to me. You're free to make any minor corrections (commas, periods, spelling errors, broken links, etc.) but as far as adding or removing content, I would recommend sticking to the talk page and providing a source to back up any changes that you feel should be made. Fezmar9 (talk) 22:22, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

We try to avoid using social media as an authoritative source whenever possible. Was I correct when I said in the next two months there will probably be a press release about Norma Jean's new album that will likely address who is in and who is out of the band? Fezmar9 (talk) 22:35, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

We try to avoid using social media links for supporting material such as release of singles, videos, etc. For band members, it's probably the best source. In this case though, and others where it's not updated frequently, it's apparently not a good source. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:39, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I would say assume good faith that User:TheKeviKevi125 is who they say they are, and can vouch for the accuracy of the Facebook page. For purposes in the article, we are relying on the latest update for the Facebook page, accurate or no, as it is the most recent official listing released.--¿3family6 _contribs 22:57, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

The Facebook page must have been updated due to this discussion. Earlier in the morning yesterday, Walter Görlitz updated this article to reflect what Facebook had listed, which is different from what I'm seeing today. Part of what I was saying yesterday was stemming from the fact that I knew the Facebook listing to be wrong, especially with this comment. If it seems to be up to date to other editors, and other editors are okay with using a social media site in this situation, then I'll adhere to this consensus. Fezmar9 (talk) 19:59, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Genre (again)

It seems to me that especially now with the release of Wrongdoers, the "Metalcore" label in the first paragraph needs to be revisited. I would propose a switch to "Mathcore." Thoughts? TheWarOfArt (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:50, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't skew the genre in favour of recentism. It should reflect a neutral statement that reflects their entire career, not just their last album. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:55, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I would argue that the metalcore label has historically been iffy, and their latest effort made it even more clear that is not their genre. But to address your point, I think that their genre should more reflect the current iteration of the band. For instance I don't think that anyone would argue that The Gathering is a Doom Metal band even though their earliest work would be categorized as such.TheWarOfArt (talk) 13:44, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Your opinion that "their genre should more reflect the current iteration of the band" is not in keeping with the music projects' opinion. The lede sentence should give a neutral genre and not be skewed at all. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:34, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Besides, professional reviewers describe the band's latest effort as metalcore. About.com, Allmusic, Exclaim!, and Revolver all call Wrongdoers metalcore.--¿3family6 _contribs 16:32, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

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proposed mergers

I propose the merger with the Luti-kriss band, only changing is the new name Norma Jean. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.1.61.145 (talk) 15:36, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

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Reverted edit - Polar Summer Tour/Amnesia Rockfest

@Walter Görlitz: Just wanted to touch base regarding your revision to an edit containing info for a tour leading up to the groups Amnesia Rockfest performance. This event is one of Canada's largest rock festivals and I think definitely should be mentioned on the page. As the tour was booked last minute leading up to the event without much press I had to pull from two verified facebook pages, one being Solid State Records official page and one being the band's own verified page which both contain proper tour posters for the dates. As a better source I also pulled a citation from an Exclaim! article about the groups performance at the festival.

Like to hear your thoughts, Tokyoyo (talk) 00:55, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

The "tour" content was self-published, but the review of one show was not. My mistake. However, I wouldn't add anything about it. Unless the tour gets coverage, WP:NTOUR really applies. To call it one of Canada's largest rock festivals is a bit misleading, as there are not many rock festivals in Canada. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:02, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Luti-Kriss

Shouldn't it be mentioned in the lead that the band were formerly known as Luti-Kriss, it's state elsewhere on the page, but that's generally included in the lead too? Also, I added in the infobox the years when they were under the name, however got reverted, but that kind of info is included in most band infobox if they were ever known by a different name, and by no means is looked down upon according to Template:Infobox musical artist. Issan Sumisu (talk) 15:21, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes it should. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:40, 16 October 2018 (UTC)