Talk:Ngā Wai Hono i te Pō

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This article is written in New Zealand English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, analyse, centre, fiord) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Statement that doesn't make sense

The line "her ascension to the throne just a few weeks shy of her late father’s coronation on August 21, 2006" does not make sense. I know it's a direct quote from a news source, but still.

Maybe "just a few weeks after the anniversary of her late father’s coronation on August 21, 2006" would be better wording. 2001:DF5:B000:22:5D75:3574:C1DF:17C2 (talk) 22:52, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement removed. Nurg (talk) 22:58, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, "shy of" is a local idiom that usually means "less than". It is simply wrong here. --Hugh7 (talk) 07:20, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Name

Hoping we can get an official source for her full name. I've been using Ngā Wai Hono i Te Pō (note capitals and macrons) based on this Spinoff piece: https://thespinoff.co.nz/atea/05-09-2024/a-new-monarch-has-been-named-whats-next-for-the-kingitanga which seems to be be more reliable than much of the recent media coverage. Would be nice if we could settle on whether "Te" is capitalised, and set up redirects from other versions of the name. Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 02:06, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The lower case "i" word suggests we are using title case, and that suggests "te" ("meaning "the") should be uncapitalised too. Nurg (talk) 02:15, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support moving to Ngāwai Hono i Te Pō. Dhantegge (talk) 02:17, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, the reliable sources aren't using that spelling. I suggest moving to Ngā Wai Hono i te Pō. I agree about the title case, and it's inconsistent even in the Spinoff article. —Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 02:21, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well that's fine as well. Dhantegge (talk) 02:23, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a Māori speaker - I would personally capitalise "Te", I think. The "i" is different because it joins "Ngāwai" and "Te Pō". Often in names beginning with Ngā the names are joined together, such as Ngātata Love, Ngākau, Ngaahina Hohaia, te mea, te mea Dhantegge (talk) 02:22, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, they often are, but don't seem to be in this case, based on all the sources I'm seeing including the official announcement (which has other orthographic problems though) https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=1054686259361452&set=pcb.1054686282694783. Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 02:26, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dhantegge. If we don't capitalise the "i", why would we capitalise "te"? Nurg (talk) 02:34, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Not wanting to speak for Dhantegge) Compounds like Te Ao and Te Pō are often capitalised, as in "Te Ao Māori". Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 02:45, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's at the start of a phrase. Look at what the experts at Te Taura Whiri i te Reo Māori do with their own organisation name. Nurg (talk) 02:49, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, Te Pō specifically is a compound phrase that's usually (but not always!) capitalised,

e.g. https://www.newzealandartwork.com/blog/post/33540/Creation-MythExploring-Te-KoreTe-P-and-Te-Ao-in-Mori-art/

https://teara.govt.nz/en/te-ao-marama-the-natural-world/page-3

https://www.nzepc.auckland.ac.nz/kmko/18/kmko18_04_paraha.pdf

— Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 03:24, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can't say this is something I can profess any real knowledge in, but for the similar name Hine-nui-te-pō (admittedly a mythological character) we use lower case on both te and pō. As does the Māori dictionary: [1] & [2]-161.29.216.215 (talk) 03:25, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because capital I is an English pronoun and looks confusing among lower case letters. Hugh7 (talk) 07:14, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ngātata and Ngāhina are single words, not plurals. Ngā wai here means "the waters" and is two words. --Hugh7 (talk) 07:18, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was trying to reply to Giantflightlessbirds (Mike) around 02:22 UTC and what follows got lost in edit conflicts, and kinda overtaken by other responses then:– It may take some time for usage patterns to shake out and some consistency to establish in the real world. For now, I am very happy with Mike's suggestion of Ngā Wai Hono i te Pō. It complies with the WP consensus that we use macrons to indicate long vowels and it uses title case. Nurg (talk) 04:10, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The most official source will be a printed (ie pdf) press release from the Kiingitanga section of the Waikato-Tainui website. I saw one, but now I can't find it.

Waikato-Tainui style is to use double-vowel orthography, hence Ngaa Wai Hono i te Poo, and I have seen that, but another press release uses Ngawaihonoitepo (no spaces, one cap, no marking of vowel-length). Mainstream te reo uses macrons.

It is her name, and we should not meddle with it. If we can find a document of hers signed as Kuini, I recommend we follow that.

"Paki" is as much or as little her surname now as Windsor is Charles III's, and should not ordinarily be used. I suggest using his page as a guide for when to use it.

I studied te reo in 1969-70 under Professor Bruce Biggs (Ngāti Maniapoto) using double vowels, but he always said marking vowel length at all is more important than how it is marked (because it affects meaning). (I am still not fluent, but very familiar with the orthography of te reo Māori. I have no affiliation with the Kiingitanga.) --Hugh7 (talk) 07:11, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This Facebook page is apparently official, but it is inconsistent, using no vowel-length-marking of her name, but using both Kuini and Kuiini. Te Aka Maori Dictionary translates queen as kuīni. They will all still be heavily involved in the tangihanga and whakawahinga, and it may be a day or two before they can sort themselves out.[3] Hugh7 (talk) 07:39, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That page also gives her full name as 𝙏𝙚 𝘼𝙧𝙞𝙠𝙞𝙣𝙪𝙞 𝙆𝙪𝙞𝙣𝙞 𝙉𝙜𝙖 𝙬𝙖𝙞 𝙝𝙤𝙣𝙤 𝙞 𝙩𝙚 𝙥𝙤 𝘗𝘰𝘰𝘵𝘢𝘵𝘢𝘶 𝘛𝘦 𝘞𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘰𝘸𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘰 𝘝𝘐𝘐𝘐 Hugh7 (talk) 08:15, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds interesting, but I can't find it. Can you link directly to the bit with her full name. Nurg (talk) 08:43, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They might be referencing this facebook reel?-Radicuil (talk) 09:10, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is the page: [4]

𝙏𝙚 𝘼𝙧𝙞𝙠𝙞𝙣𝙪𝙞 𝙆𝙪𝙞𝙣𝙞 𝙉𝙜𝙖 𝙬𝙖𝙞 𝙝𝙤𝙣𝙤 𝙞 𝙩𝙚 𝙥𝙤 𝘗𝘰𝘰𝘵𝘢𝘵𝘢𝘶 𝘛𝘦 𝘞𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘰𝘸𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘰 𝘝𝘐𝘐𝘐

is in what is currently the top post, posted 16 hours ago, that is 1000 hrs, Septemrber 5. --Hugh7 (talk) 00:09, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Hugh7 I have been a student of Te Reo since the early 1990s and I just want to +1 what Hugh says here. Long vowels - like vowel tones in Mandarin Chinese - do alter meaning. Double vowels are the standard way to represent these in Waikato-Tainui. Macrons are the standard method elsewhere in the country. Despite WP policy on preferring third-party sources, the most authoritative source on this is surely a direct communication on behalf of the Kiingitanga. Perhaps someone could reach out to them for an official pronouncement about the spelling of their new monarch's name? Danylstrype (talk) 03:17, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I DM'd the Kiingitanga's Facebook page on Saturday, but got an automatic reply saying they were busy, so I sent a message through their website and am hoping for a reply by email. I wrote:

___

E Te Kiingitanga, Tēnā koutou!

I am working on Wikipedia, and we are discussing the exact orthography of Te Arikinui's name when it is used in a sentence. Even official sources disagree. Can The Kiingitanga please issue an official statement? We need to know -

Macrons or double vowels?
Spaces, closed up or hyphens?
Capitals or lower case (especially "i te")?
When (if ever) is the surname "Paki" appropriate?
What are acceptable contractions?

Ngā mihi nui ki a koutou

___

I'll keep you posted. Hugh7 (talk) 03:09, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's probably best to wait a couple of days/weeks to see if a standard establishes itself, rather than making a decision based on the first facebp/ook post... Or, at least, to treat any consensus that develops at the moment as super-provisional. Furius (talk) 17:07, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the official word from the Kiingitanga's Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/Kiingitanga/videos/877752917098895

"IMPORTANT let’s spell the Queen’s name correctly. No capitals after N or macrons or double vowels. 𝙏𝙚 𝘼𝙧𝙞𝙠𝙞𝙣𝙪𝙞 𝙆𝙪𝙞𝙣𝙞 𝙉𝙜𝙖 𝙬𝙖𝙞 𝙝𝙤𝙣𝙤 𝙞 𝙩𝙚 𝙥𝙤 𝘗𝘰𝘰𝘵𝘢𝘵𝘢𝘶 𝘛𝘦 𝘞𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘰𝘸𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘰 𝘝𝘐𝘐𝘐" 222.153.88.167 (talk) 23:01, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Which contradicts the capitalisation in the official Kiingitanga announcement a few days before. Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 00:27, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It even contradicts itself, since the long vowels in Kuīni, Ngā and pō are unmarked, but that in Pōtatau is marked. --Hugh7 (talk) 03:13, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the meantime I guess this is what we must go with, though she herself a student of Te Reo, and must know the importance of marking vowel length. --Hugh7 (talk) 03:16, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Found a press release from the Kiingitanga office via Scoophttps://beta1.scoop.co.nz/stories/AK2409/S08179/statement-from-tekau-maa-rua-me-ngaa-rangatira-o-te-motu.htm from what I've heard, it's what's been displayed on her birth certificate hence the reason for the spelling. Ejro.01 (talk) 11:13, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In addition, a number of articles and video descriptions from Māori media outlets using the name without macrons and capitals:

Te Ao Māori News/RNZ: https://www.teaonews.co.nz/2024/09/06/kuini-nga-wai-hono-i-te-po-needs-to-carry-kotahitanga-forward-advisor-says/

Te Ao Māori News: https://www.teaonews.co.nz/2024/09/06/hei-kuini-hei-kuini-hei-kuini-who-is-nga-wai-hono-i-te-po/

https://www.teaonews.co.nz/2024/09/05/watch-queen-ngawai-hono-i-te-po-paki-ascends-the-throne-in-front-of-thousands/

https://www.teaonews.co.nz/2024/09/05/ngawai-hono-i-te-po-succeeds-her-father-kiingi-tuheitia/

Te Karere: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyLuTmHrZ90

I'd rather take their word over mainstream media to be quite honest Ejro.01 (talk) 11:43, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think the situation looks quite clear now: "Nga wai hono i te po" is the way to go. Furius (talk) 13:20, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And notice also that none of these sources have a macron or double vowel in Tuheitia. 222.152.253.99 (talk) 19:15, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Straw poll – 10 Sept 2024

In the hopes that we can set an WP:RM soon, please confirm these options are correct, and give your preferences for which options should be considered. No justification for preferences needed at the moment, we can argue properly in a formal RM. If you think another option should be included for consideration, please add it to the end of the list; you will note that there are many more permutations possible than listed here, but I expect the first two will be the main considerations. And yes, as styles become more concrete, this question can be raised again in future. — HTGS (talk) 01:01, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ngā Wai Hono i te Pō (title case; current article name)
Nga wai hono i te po (sentence case; no macrons, no double vowels)
Ngā wai hono i te pō (sentence case; macrons)
Nga Wai Hono i te Po (title case; no macrons)
Ngā Wai Hono i Te Pō (title case but with capitalised Te)
Ngāwai Hono i Te Pō (Ngāwai as one word)

Photo

Can we find a more up-to-date photo, without glasses and dressed more formally? Is the classic one taken this morning, of her on the throne with a pare kawakawa on her head suitable? --Hugh7 (talk) 08:23, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This would be good; the present photo has some weird AI or filter stuff going on; it looks almost cartoonish and quite different from the original photo from which it derives. Furius (talk) 17:04, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, if you go to the source page and download it that's the original photo. Unfortunately. The Governor General's photographer applied some aggressive sharpening and enhancement to it when it was taken (not uncommon). I haven't seen an alternative photo yet that's been released under an open licence. So we may need to approach official channels and negotiate a copyright release. — Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 23:25, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

someone should maybe try contacting the office of the govenor general somehow, they have a non-sharpened/brightened version on their facebook (lower resolution though) so maybe there's an original non-edited one somewhere. then again a more recent photo would be better. I think the GG was at the coronation so potentially we'll get photos from that eventually on the GG website TheLoyalOrder (talk) 06:18, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The office of the Kiingitanga is unconnected to the office of the Governor-General: the Kiingitanga was formed to oppose the Government, and its status in the Pākehā world today is purely a matter of courtesy. --Hugh7 (talk) 03:19, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think TheLoyalOrder was suggesting that there is any particular connection between the governor-general and the Kīngitanga. Just that the photo currently on the page is cropped from a photo taken for the office of the governor-general, and that Dame Cindy Kiro had attended the tangi and so photos may have been taken when she was there. Most photos uploaded to the GG's website are released under a CC license so are usually free for us to use on Wikipedia.

Having said that, it's been a few days now and no photos from the tangi have been published on the GG site as yet, so I suspect we won't be getting any by that avenue.-161.29.216.215 (talk) 04:07, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Name

Here's a useful breakdown on how her name translates, from an excellent source. But note that it's a transcribed conversation and macron use etc is all over the place in this article, so probably not a good source for orthography. https://e-tangata.co.nz/comment-and-analysis/nga-wai-hono-i-te-po-is-the-right-woman-for-the-job/ — Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 21:34, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Waka Huia gave an excellent first-hand account of the origin of her name in 2010. I'm not aware of a freely accessible copy of the whole TV episode, but an excerpt of the relevant part is at https://www.instagram.com/reel/C_lroAeodHx/?igsh=a25rbmVleGNjbmJi. I have put a formal citation in the article. I'm not sure if a link to Instagram should be added to the citation or not. Nurg (talk) 06:28, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Nurg If it helps there's a record of that show here: https://www.ngataonga.org.nz/search-use-collection/search/TZP384189/ Quilt Phase (talk) 23:57, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hopefully Te Aka Māori Dictionary will make an entry for her, as they did for her father. Dhantegge (talk) 02:56, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]