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Suggest to merge with Queen of Fiji artcile

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think this article shuld be merged with the existing queen of Fiji article, repetitive


There is some overlap, and both articles should be trimmed to reduce that. I would oppose merging them, however, as they are two distinct offices, albeit held by the same person, and the roles are different. David Cannon 09:03, 14 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
maybe it would be good to include the British sovereigns who held the title or held rights to the tile title Tui Viti (Paramount Chief)- Namely Victoria, Edward VII, George V, George VI and Elizabeth. As the title is synonymous with the British sovereign, it think its fairly accurate the Prince Charles will succeed to the title with the passing of the Queen, unless specifically ended by Fiji's Great Council of Chiefs. Seriously doubt this will happen Fiji's Chiefs are themselves quite proud of the royal family and their links to Fiji. Also to make the article more interesting it would be good to put the order of precedence in the article for the Fiji Chiefs

1. Paramount Chief of Fiji (Tui Viti) Queen Elizabeth 2. Paramount Chief of Kubuna (Vunivalu of Bau) Vacant since 1989 3. Paramount Chief of Burebasaga (Roko Tui Dreketi) Ro Teimumu Tuisawau-Kepa 4. Paramount Chief of Tovata (Tui Cakau) Ratu Naiqama Lalabalavu

All other chiefs in Fiji come after the above in regard to precendence and again depends on the province they come from

Think the separate Tui Viti article can be merged with this one, maybe as a separate heading origins of the title and how Queen Elizabeth is rightfully entitled to it
Let's ask a number of Fijian Wikipedians about this. As far as I'm aware, the Tui Viti title was abolished with the cession. British Sovereigns assumed the role, but not the title, per se. But User:Xorkl000 and User:Laulad may know something about this that I don't, so let's ask them. David Cannon 11:09, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Queen Elizabeth?

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While, as I understand it there is no specific official title for the role of Paramount Chief of all of Fiji, isn't it incorrect to translate that title into the Fijian version of Queen Elizabeth's name. While the title is presently hers, it doesn't belonmg solely to her so I propose it's probably incorrect to translate "Paramount Chief of Fiji" as "Ilisapeci-Na Radi ni Viti kei Peritania", (English: Elizabeth Queen of Fiji and Britain) Matt Bray 08:26, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

This is a very interesting comment and is honestly a tricky one to confirm, from the official GCC in council records for 1962, the Chiefs of Fiji, officially bestowed Queen Elizabeth the Title "Ilisapeci-Na Radi ni Viti kei Peritania" and in 1998 the GCC Council again reaffirmed their allegiance to her by officially announcing her as Paramount Chief of Fiji but with no official Fijian translation. As far as historic records go, the highest title among Fijian Chiefs would be Tui Viti, which again is contestable considering only the chiefs of areas under Ratu Cakobau's sphere of influence recognised it as such. But prior to cession Ratu Cakobau was as such officially recognised by majority of the major Fijian Chiefs, if not all and the Europeans. Taking into consideation that Ratu Cakobau surrendered sovereignty of his kingdom (Fiji) to Queen Victoria in 1872, and as the wording goes on the deed of cession to her and her descendants, it is pretty much safe to say that Queen Elizabeth is a rightful claimant to and holder of the title Tui Viti,and it basically makes sense because if Queen Elizabeth had been male, the GCC Council of 1962 would have bestowed the title "Tui Viti kei Peritania" or "King of Fiji and Britain", "Ranadi being the feminine equivalent. As Ratu Cakobau had willingly given up sovereignty and title to Queen Victoria (no records after cession refer to him as Tui Viti but only as Vunivalu of Bau) I dont think anyone today from his line could rightly make a claim to it, unless the Queen herself surrenders it back. So essentially the Tui Viti title merged with the British crown in 1872 and has remained with the head of the British Royal family since. It should be noted despite Fiji being a republic many chiefs have indicated sentiments of being pro-monarchists. The Late Tui Nayau Ratu Mara attempted to convince the GCC to restore Fiji to a Constitutional Monarchy in the 90's and comments in recent years from Ratu Epeli Nailatikau and the current President Ratu Iloilo suggest them to be pro monarchists.
Just some interedting points to add to the discussion.

Head of State?

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I'm confused, is HM the Head of State of Fiji, or does she just have a special status? Therequiembellishere 03:33, 21 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there is an easy answer to that. Fiji retains all the symbolism of a monarchy (look at the flag, ensigns, coat of arms, motto, currency, etc) but behaves as a republic independent of the crown. Clearly, QEII remains a figurehead of sorts, though she is not in practice the Head of State. Nearest parallels are probably Rhodesia 1965-70, and Grenada 1979-83. Nudge67 05:13, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The simplest answer is that Constitutionally, the Queen is not recognized. Constitutionally, she is a nobody. However, the Great Council of Chiefs (a body representing Fiji's chiefs) recognizes her as Fiji's most senior chief. The flag and other symbols retained from the colonial and Commonwealth Realm era (which ended in 1987) have not been changed, for historical reasons - for much the same reason that some southern states in the USA retain the flag of the Confederacy as part of their own flag. David Cannon 09:36, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge

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would it be better to merge this article with the Tui Viti article, leave the lay out as it is just make it a section of the Tui Viti article, some thoughts on the topic would be appreciated, Vinaka, Maikeli MB 22:17, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This proposal seems to have cropped up again. In reading a couple of articles about the subject, I'm not entirely sure if the Tui Viti and Paramount Chief of Fiji titles are synonymous. This one would seem to suggest that they are. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 15:02, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'd go with merge, only if 'Paramount chief of Fiji' is retained as the article title. GoodDay (talk) 15:28, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
But Tui Viti also translates as "King of Fiji", why favor one translation over the other? DrKay (talk) 17:42, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Soo, the articles should be kept seperate? GoodDay (talk) 17:51, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, I favor a merge if the title she supposedly holds is Tui Viti (which it appears it is since there are no sources for Ranadi), but I think I favor the article being at the native Fijian name so that neither english translation is given undue weight. DrKay (talk) 21:11, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think I got it: Paramount chief of Fiji is = to Monarch of the United Kingdom; Tui Viti is = to King/Queen. GoodDay (talk) 21:58, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If it's certain that Paramount Chief is essentially the English translation of Tui Viti, then I'm okay with a merge. The only thing is, though, that the sole sources supporting this are news reports, which were deemed insufficient to affirm at Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom that the Queen is Paramount Chief of Fiji. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 00:54, 22 November 2009 (UTC) PS- I've left a note at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fiji asking for input. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 00:56, 22 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How about a single article called Monarchy of Fiji, which would be created from Tui Viti, Paramount chief of Fiji and Queen of Fiji? All the articles are fairly short and there is quite a lot of duplication. Together they would create a good-sized article with an obvious structure, which in summary form would be something like:
The petty chiefdoms of the Fijian Islands were consolidated by the rise of Cakobau who declared himself Tui Viti. He ceded sovereignty to Britain, which made Fiji a Crown colony under the British Crown. In 1970, became a Commonwealth realm. Coup in 1987, became a republic, but Elizabeth still recognised as traditional Queen of Fiji. Then finish with a list of monarchs from 1840s to present day. DrKay (talk) 09:56, 22 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That is acceptable. GoodDay (talk) 15:09, 22 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that may work. I noticed in reading Talk:Tui Viti that in July someone made a comment regarding a similar proposal:
They're three distinct titles. The title of "Paramount Chief" is, de facto, a recent yet retroactive one, and belongs to the republican era. The title "Queen of Fiji" applies to the post-colonial monarchy (Fiji as a Commonwealth realm, 1970-87), at a time when the title Tui Viti was not (as far as I can tell) really in usage. A merger would seem confusing. Aridd (talk) 11:56, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So, a merger into one Monarchy of Fiji page is not impossible, but we may need to be careful not to let separate subjects overlap where they shouldn't. (I may only be saying this to myself, as I know I don't have a solid grasp of the topic of Fijian chiefdoms and monarchy!) --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 12:55, 23 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
See Monarchy of Fiji. If that's OK, then I guess I'll have to do a history merge and set up redirects. DrKay (talk) 19:21, 23 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There didn't seem to be anymore comments so I've done the first merge of Monarchy and Paramount chief. DrKay (talk) 10:27, 25 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tense

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Per [2], I think it's misleading the other way. Both the GCC and the Constitution are suspended; the events described happened in the past.

Per WP:DATED and WP:RELTIME, phrases like "current" and "still" should be avoided in favor of time-resistant grammatical forms. DrKay (talk) 11:02, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not fundamentally opposed to using the past tense, but it does seem more misleading to me than the present tense. It suggests that there has been a formal change or revocation of that recognition. True, the GCC is suspended (the abrogation of the Constitution seems immaterial to the Queen's status), but the current government has made no move to revoke its recognition of the Queen's honorific function as Paramount Chief. Rather the contrary. The Queen's birthday is still celebrated, and, significantly, Bainimarama has publicly described himself as a monarchist, wishing the Queen would one day resume her full duties as monarch. That being the case, I would tenatively favour the article assuming a maintaining of the status quo, rather than assuming a change. Aridd (talk) 21:25, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Confusion between head of state and Tui Viti

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It is not correct the "Tui Viti title, and it is not officially recognised by the current de facto Fijian government, it remains dormant in usage". The Tui Viti title is quite separate from the constitutional status of head of state. The Queen is still regarded as Tui viti, irrespective of whether the Queen is also head of state.203.80.61.102 (talk) 00:06, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Move discussion in progress

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There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Monarchy of the United Kingdom which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 21:59, 12 September 2017 (UTC) (manually added 87.102.116.36 (talk) 22:10, 12 September 2017 (UTC))[reply]

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Can Someone Provide The Reasons For The Continous Deletion To My Monarchy of Fiji Contribution Below?

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Monarchy Origin

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According to legend, Fiji's high chief, Lutunasobasoba, [1] the eldest son of Tura originated from Lake Tanganyika in Africa.[2]

The arrival of Tura (landed at Naicobocobo, Bua),[3] his eldest son Lutunasobasoba (landed at Vuda)[4] and Degei & siblings (landed at the Rakiraki coast) [5]  in Fiji resulted in numerous tribal wars with earlier settlers from Israel - Ephraim warrior tribe who left Jerusalem during the Assyrian conquest in 723 BC but continued to worship Jehovah but had intermarried with the original inhabitants of Fiji (Nephilim offspring). The later group continued with their ancient religion of human sacrifice and cannibalism from ancestral practice in Africa, Babylon and Egypt until the arrival of Christianity in Fiji in 1835.

According to legend, Tura's ancestral lineage were supposedly one of King Solomon (the son of King David) with Queen Sheba.

This ancestral link may have attributed to the current flag of the Fiji islands to portray one of the golden lions carved on King Solomon's throne, even though no lions can be found in Fiji, Solomon or other island countries in the Pacific. As described in the christian holy bible... and there were arms on either side by the place of the seat, and two lions standing beside the arms {Holy Bible: 1 Kings 10:19}. And twelve lions stood there on the one side and on the other upon the six steps; there was not the like made in any kingdom {Holy Bible: 1 Kings 10:20}.

Monarchy of Fiji- Tui Viti Authority With Roko Tui Bau at Vatanitawake, Bau Island.

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The ancestral Chief Vuetiverata, more commonly remembered as simply Vueti, was the eldest great grandson of Lutunasobasoba [6] (aliases Koroi-Ratu mai Bulu, Serui-Ratu mai Bulu) and first Roko Tui Bau. According to legend he was the son of Paula, the chief of Davetalevu from Moturiki and grandson of Buisavulu, the eldest of Lutunasobasoba who was the eldest of Tura. The title Roko Tui Bau or 'Lord of Bau' was for a chiefly title in commemoration of a tribe called Bau for Veibauyaki or nomadic tribe that settled in a place called Kubuna, now known as a confederacy or Matanitu in modern Fiji but in pre-colonial times Kubuna was a physical location near Nayavu, Wainibuka.

Vueti's title, Roko Tui Bau is regarded as the highest traditional title in Fiji and the head of Kubuna, the same name for the first established place of several groups migrating out after the Nakauvadra war.

After the Nakauvadra war, Vueti left via Nakorotubu where he had his first (1st) born child, a son, the original Gonesau[7] or 'child with super natural power', called Nadurucoko who was born through supernatural circumstances with a women from Suva in Bureiwai, Nakorotubu.[8]

Nadurucoko the original Gonesau, was the father of Nailatikau Nabuinivuaka, the first (1st) Vunivalu of Bau and Kubuna.[9] [10]

Vueti was given a sacred stone by the chiefs of Fiji at Nakauvadra because he had defeated the Tui Viti's twin sons at Nakauvadra. When he reached the outer island, he named the island as Bau and ordered for a sacred temple to be built and buried the sacred stone (tawake kei Viti) at the foundation mound and named the temple as Vatanitawake translated as 'the shelter or shelve of the signifying authority award/flag of Fiji'.[11]

The monarchy of Fiji was taken over in the mid-nineteenth century when native ruler Seru Epenisa Cakobau burned the Vatanitawake[12], eliminated Roko Tui Bau's Vusaratu clan in Bau and consolidated control of the Fijian Islands and declared himself King or paramount chief of Fiji (Fijian: Tui Viti). In 1874, he voluntarily ceded sovereignty of the islands to Britain, which made Fiji a Crown colony within the British Empire. After nearly a century of British rule, Fiji became a Dominion, an independent sovereign state within the Commonwealth of Nations with Elizabeth II as head of state. After a second military coup in 1987, Fiji became a republic, and the monarchy was ended. Nevertheless, the Great Council of Chiefs recognised Elizabeth II as Tui Viti or the traditional Queen of Fiji, but the position is not one of a constitutional, or otherwise legal nature. The Great Council of Chiefs was disestablished in 2012 by decree. Elizabeth II does not use the title, and the Fijian government does not recognise it. Saqiwa (talk) 06:33, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia doesn't publish original research or give undue prominence to one view over another. This has been explained to you already. DrKay (talk) 16:05, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Lutunasobasoba n. name of legendary chief who led a migration to Fiji perhaps in the 1500s, landing at Vuda, a story often touted as the First Landing. In fact he was long preceded by Melanesians from the Solomons and Vanuatu. Stories differ, whether he remained there, died there, or travelled on to Nakauvadra Range, or even went on to Verata before dying. He was accompanied by Degei who settled at Nakauvadra. This whole movement introduced the notions of aristocratic chiefs, a foreign notion to earlier immigrants.Fijian–English Dictionary: with notes on Fijian culture and natural history-Ronald Gatty. Suva,Fiji, pg 149, 2009. https://ecommons.cornell.edu/handle/1813/28702  
  2. ^ Eräsaari, Matti (2015). "The iTaukei Chief: Value and Alterity in Verata". Journal de la Société des Océanistes (141): 239–254. Retrieved 1 September 2019.
  3. ^ Ai Tukutuku kei Viti. Methodist Missionary Magazine (April) Epeli Rokowaqa, 1926.Republished as 'Viti Makawa', Kolinio Meo.
  4. ^ Ai Tukutuku kei Viti. Methodist Missionary Magazine (April) Epeli Rokowaqa, 1926.Republished as 'Viti Makawa', Kolinio Meo.
  5. ^ Ai Tukutuku kei Viti. Methodist Missionary Magazine (April) Epeli Rokowaqa, 1926.Republished as 'Viti Makawa', Kolinio Meo.
  6. ^ Tukutuku Raraba – History of Bau
  7. ^ Fijian–English Dictionary: with notes on Fijian culture and natural history-Ronald Gatty. Suva,Fiji, pg 90, 2009. https://ecommons.cornell.edu/handle/1813/28702  
  8. ^ Native Lands Commission (NLC), Ratu Meli Salabogi (2), 1918.
  9. ^ Native Lands Commission (NLC), 'Tukutuku ni Yavusa Kubuna', Ratu Isoa Natuituba, 1918
  10. ^ Genealogy on the Origin of the 1st Vunivalu from Nakorotubu, Ra presented on page 31 by the late Ratu Joni Madraiwiwi, Roko Tui Bau & 2006-2009 Vice President of Fiji in 'The Life and Times of Cakobau: The Bauan State to 1855'- A thesis submitted for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy in the University of Otago, New Zealand By Hurray P. Heasley, B.A. (Hons.), Otago. August, 2010. [1]
  11. ^ Tui Viti signifying authority award or flag (tawake) is mentioned on pg 103.  http://up.wiki.x.io/wikipedia/en/f/f5/Archeological_Investigation_of_Vatanitawake_-A_Ceremonial_Mound_on_the_Island_of_Bau%2C_Fiji_Islands..pdf
  12. ^ Tui Viti signifying authority award or flag (tawake) is mentioned on pg 103.  http://up.wiki.x.io/wikipedia/en/f/f5/Archeological_Investigation_of_Vatanitawake_-A_Ceremonial_Mound_on_the_Island_of_Bau%2C_Fiji_Islands..pdf

Requested move 27 August 2021

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: closed. DrKay (talk) 22:12, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Monarchy of Fiji → Monarchy in Fiji – The article covers over a century of monarchism in Fiji, including the indigenous monarchy, the colonial monarchy, the independent monarchy when Fiji was a Dominion and the post-republican traditional monarchy. It is also the common name. Sources:

Strong Oppose: Per discussion held at Talk:Monarchy of the United Kingdom#Requested move 12 September 2017. Peter Ormond 💬 17:33, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - Let's stick with the current title, as the Fijian monarchy existed. GoodDay (talk) 04:06, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we know the monarchies existed. There wouldn't be an article on them otherwise. This is a requested move not a deletion discussion. DrKay (talk) 07:55, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This I know. But, I still oppose the requested move. GoodDay (talk) 19:07, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Oppose – Every other article of this nature is named "Monarchy of (country name)", so the new title would be inconsistent with every other title. Blubabluba9990 (talk) (contribs) 19:00, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Future split

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Note: Eventually, I'll be recommending a split of this article, into the separate monarchies. GoodDay (talk) 04:03, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing as the article content has been expanded, concerning a monarch other then Elizabeth II (timing is amazing, eh?). I wouldn't object to re-visiting @DrKay:'s August 2021 RM & opening another RM on this article's title. Indeed, the additions have strengthened DrKay's argument. GoodDay (talk) 00:44, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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