Talk:Mile End

Green Bridge

Just a cursory addition. This area deserves a lot better. Replaced Green Bridge because there were a lot of colour artefacts on the original. Hope to work up some better copy soon Tarquin Binary 20:26, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Swing constituency?

From the article "The area now is covered by the Bethnal Green and Bow and Poplar and Limehouse constituencies. Due to gentrification, the seat is now competitive between the Labour and Conservative Parties for the first time."

Not only is that stating an opinion, but a rather far fetched one. Recent results have been as follows: 1997: Lab 46.3%, C 21.1. 2001: Lab 50.5, C 24.3. 2005: Lab 34%, C 14.2% (with Respect on 35%). I have therefore deleted the comment. 122.57.84.132 (talk) 07:37, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

...and just for completeness, here are the results from Poplar and Canning Town: 1997: Lab 63%, C 15%. 2001: Lab 61.2%, C 20%. 2005: Lab 40%, C 22% 122.57.84.132 (talk) 07:41, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Cite sources

If are able to cite sources for existing material please add this information as a reference within both the body of the text and at the end Cosmopolitancats 00:05, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

I am requesting that this article be moved to Mile End (London).

In the 2001 Census of England and Wales, the wards Mile End East and Mile End & Globe Town each have populations of about 11,000. Census maps seem to show that only a small part of the second ward is in what would be called "Mile End", meaning the population of Mile End itself is likely between 11,000 and 15,000. Although I do not have data on the population of Mile End (Montreal), as a municipal electoral district, it has 22,000 registered voters [1] meaning its population likely exceeds 30,000. The article itself says the population of Mile End (Montreal) in 1911 was 37,000. Mile End is also well known as a customarily-defined neighbourhood of Montreal. Therefore, with twice the population of the London neighbourhood, it is of at least equal, if not greater, notability.

wrt notability, I make it 12 mainspace links to Mile End (Montreal) and 90(ish) links to Mile End, therefore oppose. Paulbrock 01:14, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

If you exclude the links through templates, it's closer to seventy. I've analyzed the top 40 Google hits below. They show comparable numbers of references to London and Montreal

I was almost going to change my mind then, however a search for "Mile End" Montreal -wikipedia gives 137,000 hits whereas "Mile End" London -wikipedia on Google gives 1 million+. Paulbrock 09:52, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

The difficulty is that "Mile End" appears regularly in addresses for London, but not for Montreal. If you can find a way to exclude trivial references within addresses, then that's another matter. Joeldl 21:06, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Google search

Below are the first forty hits on Google for "Mile End" -wikipedia. Many of the London ones actually relate to the tube station called "Mile End", but they have been counted as "London", as have matches for "Mile End Road" and "Mile End Park". The multiple matches to "Mile End Records" are counted as "Neither" though the company is from Montreal. [In accordance with some of the changes made that are favourable to London, I will move the references to Mile End Records to Montreal. Joeldl 21:13, 27 May 2007 (UTC)]

1. Uncertain London PULP LYRICS - Mile End
   "Mile End" We didn't have no where to live, / we didn't have nowhere to go ... Ooh, / it's a mess alright, / yes it's / Mile End.
   www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/pulp/mileend.html - 3k - Cached - Similar pages
2. Neither London Mile End Climbing Wall > General Information
   Cheshire London, England. 10000 square feet.
   Top-roping, leading, and bouldering. Courses offered.
   www.mileendwall.org.uk/ - 4k - Cached - Similar pages
3. London Welcome to Mile End Park
   Mile End Park in London's East End is undergoing an exciting transformation into The Park for the 21st Century; incorporating many separate parks, ...
   www.mileendpark.co.uk/ - 4k - Cached - Similar pages
4. Neither Mile End Equestrian - the horse supplement and wormer warehouse
   SAVE MONEY at Mile End Equestrian - the horse supplement and wormer warehouse where you can get hundreds of health supplies for horses at discounted prices!
   www.mileendequestrian.co.uk/ - 10k - Cached - Similar pages
5. Montreal Mile End Bar - MileEndBar.com - Accueil
   - [ Translate this page ]
   Mile End Bar, dans le mile end de Montréal. ... Bienvenue sur le nouveau site du Mile End Bar. Image. Dernière mise à jour : ( 30-03-2007 ) ...
   www.mileendbar.com/ - 19k - Cached - Similar pages
6. Montreal TurnHere: Free video guides for travel, restaurants, hotels, local ...
   The Mile End neighborhood in Montreal is home to filmmakers, artists and musicians-- and a bagel war. Filmmaker Jon Deitcher ...
   www.turnhere.com/city/montreal/all/films/312.aspx - 65k - Cached - Similar pages
7. London EoLFHS Parishes: Mile End
   In the Middle Ages, Mile End was mostly common land and a favourite place of recreation for Londoners and conveniently close to the City for people to ...
   www.eolfhs.org.uk/parish/mile_end.htm - 21k - Cached - Similar pages
8. London Streetmap.co.uk- search results
   Each grid square on the map is 500m. Click on the buy icon for instruction on how to buy this Map · Click on the camera icon for an Aerial Photograph ...
   www.streetmap.co.uk/streetmap.dll?grid2map?X=536250&Y=182250 - 35k - Cached - Similar pages
9. Montreal Mile End Community Mission - Mission Communautaire Mile End
   www.mileendmission.org/ - 2k - Cached - Similar pages
10. London Mile End campus at Queen Mary, University of London
    Mile End campus at Queen Mary, University of London.
    www.qmul.ac.uk/contact/directions.shtml - 12k - Cached - Similar pages
11. Neither Mile End Golf Club - Oswestry, Shropshire
    Mile End Golf Club in Oswestry Shropshire. A very pleasant full size 18 hole course running through the...
    www.mileendgolfclub.co.uk/ - 3k - Cached - Similar pages
12. London pubs near Mile End Tube station # beerintheevening.com
    pubs near Mile End station, Mile End tube station, pub search results; beer in the evening - search for pubs, add your own comments and suggestions, ...
    www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/results.shtml/tu/181 - 32k - Cached - Similar pages
13. London Tower Hamlets - In your ward - Mile End East
    Mile End East. Your ward councillor(s) ... Local leisure centres. Mile End Stadium ... Borough map. Borough map: Mile End East ...
    www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/data/in-your-ward/mile-end-east.cfm - 28k - Cached - Similar pages
14. Neither Mile End Office Furniture
    Office and educational furniture and accessories sales and rental, with second hand goods also available. Product catalogue, shopping cart, ...
    www.officefurniture.net.au/ - 13k - Cached - Similar pages
15. Neither Mile End Films
    All contents Copyright © 2005 Mile End Films. All Rights Reserved.
    www.mileendfilms.com/ - 9k - Cached - Similar pages
16. Neither Mile End Primary School
    We hope that this partnership will ensure that your child receives the fullest benefit from his or her time with us at Mile-End School. ...
    www.mileend.aberdeen.sch.uk/ - 7k - Cached - Similar pages
17. London Tube Guru - Explore Mile End
    Map of Mile End station location Maps provided by Collins. © Collins Bartholomew 2005 ... About Mile End. Lines: Central, District, Hammersmith & City ...
    www.visitlondon.com/tubeguru/station/423585 - 13k - Cached - Similar pages
18. Neither London mile end
    www.thebmc.co.uk/indoor/walls/wall_det.asp?wall_id=950113 - Similar pages
19. Montreal the green room <>mile end cultural center
    - [ Translate this page ]
    Join the GreenRoom/Mile End mailing list for occasional updates and alerts. Inscrivez-vous à notre liste d'envoi pour recevoir les dernières nouvelles! ...
    www.mileend.ca/ - 13k - Cached - Similar pages
20. Neither Alpacas From Mile End Farm
    Information and photographs from Mile End Farm (UK). History, fiber, alpaca care, and cost of ownership.
    www.alpaca-uk.co.uk/ - 10k - Cached - Similar pages
21. London Discover Tower Hamlets - Parks - Mile End Park - The park map
    Mile End Park is unusual. It was created as a result of a plan for London in the 1940’s which envisaged that there would be several green areas connecting ...
    www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/data/discover/data/parks/mile-end/the-park-map.cfm - 23k - Cached - Similar pages
22. London LondonTown.com | London Travel | Mile End tube London
    Discounts on leading London hotel and bed and breakfast accommodation. Sightseeing, attractions and other tourist information. Theatre tickets, dinner and ...
    www.londontown.com/LondonInformation/Underground_Stations/Mile_End/098a/ - 75k - May 25, 2007 - Cached - Similar pages
23. London 36. In the Mile End Road. Amy Levy. Modern British Poetry
    Louis Untermeyer, ed. (1885–1977). Modern British Poetry. 1920. Amy Levy. 1861–1889. 36. In the Mile End Road. HOW like her! But 'tis she herself, ...
    www.bartleby.com/103/36.html - 19k - Cached - Similar pages
24. Uncertain London Pulp - Mile End – Music at Last.fm
    Listen to Pulp – Mile End. Mile End appears on the album Trainspotting and has been tagged as: britpop, british, rock. People who like Pulp also like Suede, ...
    www.last.fm/music/Pulp/_/Mile+End - 56k - Cached - Similar pages
25. London Container City™ | Mile End Youth Centre
    In 2003 The Environment Trust commissioned Urban Space Management to create a cost effective youth centre in Mile End Park, East London. ...
    www.containercity.com/mile-end-youth-centre.html - 7k - Cached - Similar pages
26. Montreal Université de Montréal - English - News digest - October 11th 2005 ...
    Mile End is in the throes of gentrification, causing the greatest upheaval ... The urban history specialist points out that Mile End, where Mordecai Richler ...
    www.umontreal.ca/english/news_digest/2005-2006/20051011/mile_end.html - 11k - Cached - Similar pages
27. Montreal Metroblogging Montreal: Molotovs in Mile End
    Not so long ago, I wrote a silly little screed about the closing of Harji's, a Mile End grocery store that was subsequently passed on to new owners. ...
    montreal.metblogs.com/archives/2006/04/molotovs_in_mil.phtml - 38k - Cached - Similar pages
28. Montreal Mile End Bar - Lounge, Mile End, Clubs in Montreal
    L ong lines have formed early in the evening outside Mile End Bar, which is host, along with a handful of other clubs, to the local scene. ...
    www.martiniboys.com/Montreal/Mile-End-Bar-nightlife.html - 22k - Cached - Similar pages
29. Montreal ...an endless banquet: Mile End Milestone
    Mile End Milestone · wilensky's celebrates Yes, you guessed it, Wilensky's Light Lunch celebrated its 75th anniversary yesterday with champagne and plenty ...
    endlessbanquet.blogspot.com/2007/05/mile-end-milestone.html - 90k - Cached - Similar pages
30. London Mile End (pre-manipulation) on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
    Mile End I posted this manipulated version of the picture a few days ago and it's .... Click this icon to see all public photos tagged with mile end station ...
    www.flickr.com/photos/dgbalancesrocks/142987089/ - 56k - Cached - Similar pages
31. Neither Outside Music :: Labels :: Mile End Records
    Outside Music :: Labels :: Mile End Records. Mile End is a new, multi-genre label from Montreal. Mile End Records. PATRICK DREAM and MIKE MEURIN ...
    www.outside.on.ca/manufacturers.php?manufacturerid=236 - 32k - Cached - Similar pages
32. Montreal Mile End Legal Clinic
    The Mile-End Legal Clinic is a network of Montreal lawyers and law students dedicated to making justice more accessible to citizens of our city.
    www.justicemontreal.org/ - 4k - Cached - Similar pages
33. Neither Mile End Real Estate - realestate.com.au
    Mile End Real Estate returned the following current properties on realestate.com.au. Sign up for a Real Estate Alert to be notified of new Mile End Real ...
    www.realestate.com.au/realestate/sa/adelaide+city/mile+end - 38k - Cached - Similar pages
34. London Container City™ | Mile End Youth Centre – Stage 2
    Ongoing Projects: Mile End Youth Centre – Stage 2. Mile End Park Stage 2 ... London Borough Tower Hamlets; Location: Mile End Park, London; Containers used: ...
    www.containercity.com/mile-end-youth-centre-s2.html - 6k - Cached - Similar pages
35. Neither Barbara Davidson-Miles/Mile's End Farm
    Mile's End Farm, located in central Massachusetts, offers quality boarding, horses for sale and riding lessons.
    www.bdmiles.com/ - 13k - Cached - Similar pages
36. Neither Montreal Amazon.com: Mile End: Waverly: Music: Daniel Thouin
    Amazon.com: Mile End: Waverly: Music: Daniel Thouin by Daniel Thouin.
    www.amazon.com/Mile-End-Waverly-Daniel-Thouin/dp/B0002CHL9O - 90k - Cached - Similar pages
37. Neither Montreal Amazon.com: Mile End: St-Viateur: Music: Daniel Thouin
    Amazon.com: Mile End: St-Viateur: Music: Daniel Thouin by Daniel Thouin.
    www.amazon.com/Mile-End-St-Viateur-Daniel-Thouin/dp/B0002CHL9Y - 90k - Cached - Similar pages
38. Montreal Mile End Bar - Reviews and Ratings of Bars and Clubs in Montreal ...
    Reviews and ratings of Mile End Bar in Montreal from The New York Times.
    travel.nytimes.com/.../guides/north-america/canada/quebec/montreal/attraction-detail.html?vid=1154654656442 Similar pages
39. London Genesis Cinema, London
    ... and special email offers, please send email stating 'I Want To Join'. Click Here to book your tickets! 93 - 95 Mile End Road Whitechapel, London E1 4UJ.
    www.genesiscinema.co.uk/ - 1k - Cached - Similar pages
40. Montreal Restaurants near Mile End in Montreal, QC
    Restaurants near Mile End in Montreal, QC - Find comprehensive information on Montreal restaurants in Montreal, QC.
    travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide-2803198-montreal_restaurants-i-nhood-mile+end - 152k - Cached - Similar pages

<vote moved to voting section>

Oppose per Kbthompson. The population estimate above is based on the ridiculous idea that Mile End is completely enclosed in wards including the name "Mile End", and ignores signficant parts of the locality, for example in the Bow West ward. Apart from that, a population comparison is not enough to judge comparative significance, as demonstrated by Kbthompson's statements. Common usage is perhaps not so obvious, as it really is simply about where the name is being used, but the London one is enough ahead for there to be nothing wrong with the current arrangements. JPD (talk) 18:48, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

If London's Mile End has historical significance, then we would expect significant references to the area on Google Scholar. The area should be referred to as a neighbourhood, instead of appearing in the name of something else. I have found it difficult to eliminate the trivial use of the phrase "Mile End" in addresses (common on Google Scholar because it appears in the addresses of University departments). However, I present the results of a Google Scholar search below. It is important to consider the results qualitatively as well as quantitatively. When this is done, it appears that the two Mile Ends are the object of scholarly writing with roughly equal frequency.Joeldl 01:12, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Google Scholar search

I did the following searches on Google Scholar:

• +"Mile End" +London -Adelaide -"Mile End Road" -"Mile End Rd" -"College, Mile End"-Hospital -Patent -"Queen Mary" -E1 -El -E14NS -"Road, Mile End"
• +"Mile End" +Montreal -Adelaide -"Mile End Road" -"Mile End Rd" -"College, Mile End"-Hospital -Patent -"Queen Mary" -E1 -El -E14NS -"Road, Mile End"

Most of the phrases eliminated appeared primarily in addresses. This is also true of "Queen Mary's College". Many medical studies were carried out at a hospital located in Mile End, and needed to be eliminated. Many US patents were registered to people describing themselves as being from Mile End, London. I eliminated Adelaide because of the Mile End there, but it should probably also be counted against the London one if we're talking about having a disambiguation page at Mile End.

London gets 464 hits this way, Montreal 75. However, even when these precautions have been taken, Mile End, London, is still generally used to identify the location of other things, such as people, businesses, tube stations, etc. (in keeping with UK practices giving prominence to these neighbourhood units in official nomenclature), or is often otherwise mentioned only in a trivial way. The Montreal neighbourhood, in among the Google Scholar references, is, by contrast, much more commonly than the London neighbourhood referred to directly as an object of discourse, in part because of its historical importance in the 19th and early 20th centuries. However, for almost a century, its name has not been used as a normal part of addresses.

Montreal results

The Montreal hits include some that have "Mile End" in the title, such as

• Densification residentielle en quarrier central." le cas du Mile-End h Montreal
• The Feast of St. John the Baptist in the Mile-End Neighbourhood in Montreal. New Meanings and the …

Other direct references from the first page of results include

• The Mile-End, one of Montréal's oldest cosmopolitan neighborhoods, is even more so today because its immigrant population is not only of European descent but ...
• To situate the project in context: Mile End is a where many Portuguese, Italian and Greek immigrants first settled in Montreal, and where many still live in ...

Further likely relevant results from the first four pages (40 results out of 75) include:

• Manufacturing Montreal: The Making of an Industrial Landscape, 1850 to 1930 - all 5 versions »
  RD Lewis - 2000 - utpjournals.com
  ... attempts to identify transformations by taking 'cross-sections' of Montreal's
  industrial districts ... such as Côte Saint-Paul in the west and Mile End in the ...
• Saint-Laurent: Montreal's Main/Saint-Laurent, la Main De Montreal.
  K Lord - Urban History Review, 2003 - questia.com
  ... expansion in the suburbs of Saint-Laurent, Saint-Jean-Baptiste and Saint-Louis-du-
  Mile-End by the late nineteenth century. In 1876, the Montreal-Saint-Jerome ...
• city, with more extensive gentrification than anywhere else in Montreal (Ley 1996 ...
  corridor'), which cuts through the Saint-Louis and Mile End neighbourhoods on ...
• (possibly relevant) The Creative Destruction of Montreal: Street Widenings and Urban (Re) development in the Nineteenth …
  J Gilliland - Urban History Review, 2002 - questia.com
  ... (46) Our primary source of data is Montreal's annual rental tax rolls, which provide
  the names of each business or ... Louis du Mile End (annexed in 1910). ...
• Minority Places of Worship and Zoning Dilemmas in Montre´ al - all 2 versions »
  A GERMAIN, JE GAGNON - Planning Theory & Practice, 2003 - Taylor & Francis
  ... Figure 4. Hassidic synagogues and other places of worship, Outremont and Mile-End
  (Montréal). Page 14. ... Mile-End: Defining Inter-ethnic Coexistence ...
• (possibly relevant) schéma d’urbanisation typiquement montréalais
  B analyse de Montréal - er.uqam.ca
  ... la montée :
  voie de liaison entre côtes et rangs. Map of the Island of Montreal,
  1904. ... Plans cadastraux d’îlots du Mile-End et du plateau Mont-Royal. ...
• Étude typomorphologique de l’arrondissement du Plateau-Mont-Royal - all 3 versions »
  M Dubois, P Marmen, P Lemay - ville.montreal.qc.ca
  ... À cela s’ajoute le village Saint-Louis-du-Mile-End de part et d’autre du ... Voir la
  carte de Fortifications Survey of Montreal datant de 1866 (page suivante ...
• UN PATRIMOINE RELIGIEUX EN DEVENIR: LES ÉGLISES DE L’ARRONDISSEMENT ROSEMONT–LA PETITE-PATRIE À …
  RLAPPÀ MONTRÉAL - patrimoine.uqam.ca
  ... Les limites actuelles du quartier englobent une partie de deux an- ciennes
  municipalités, Saint-Louis du Mile End et Coteau Saint-Louis, et de deux quar- tiers ...
• [BOOK] Le vieillissement à Montréal: dynamique intramétropolitaine
  AM Séguin, P Apparicio, Observatoire métropolitain … - 1999 - vrm.ca
  ... à une forte concentration de « jeunes adultes » caractérise la structure d’âge de
  plusieurs secteurs du Plateau Mont-Royal (y compris le Mile-End) et du ...
• Espace urbain et religion: esquisse d’une géographie des lieux de culte minoritaires de la région de … - all 2 versions »
  JE Gagnon, A Germain - Cahiers de Géographie du Québec◆ Volume, 2002 - ggr.ulaval.ca
  ... minority religions (ie, non Roman Catholic or Protestant) in Montreal and examines
  some ... résidentiel des immigrants juifs, soit dans le quartier Mile-End et la ...
• Bibliographie - all 2 versions »
  F Roy, JP Chalifoux, JF Auger - Revue d'histoire de l'Amérique française, 1999 - Érudit
  ... BOONE, Christopher, «Politics of Transportation Services in Suburban Montreal: Sorting
  Out the "Mile End Muddle", 1893-1909», Revue d'histoire urbaine/Urban ...

Extrapolating to all the results, we can expect about 25 hits referring to Mile End, Montreal as an object of discourse to some degree.

London results

There are analogous references to the London neighbourhood buried in the results for the London search, but, at the very least, they do not far outnumber such references to the Montreal neighbourhood. Mostly, the articles simply mention that something is located in Mile End, without discussing Mile End itself. Of the first 100 results, those that discuss the neighbourhood itself appear to be:

• (twice) The Politics of the Poor: The East End of London 1885-1914 - all 2 versions »
  M Brodie - 2004 - books.google.com
  ... In Bethnal Green, Shoreditch, and most of Mile End and Whitechapel, artisanoccupations
  were ... 5 A large percentage ofmarried women in East London were outworkers ...
• Estimate of the Jewish Population of London in 1929 -
  HL Trachtenberg - Journal of the Royal Statistical Society, 1933 - JSTOR
  ... George-in-the-East and Mile End Old Town. These included two registration districts
  outside the Metropolitan Borough of Stepney, viz. London City and Bethnal ...
• [CITATION] D. MORRIS, Mile End Old Town 1740-1780: A Social History of an Early Modern London Suburb
  L Schwarz - LONDON JOURNAL-LONDON-LONGMAN-, 2005 - LONDON JOURNAL TRUST
• [BOOK] Spitalfields and Mile End New Town: The Parishes of Christ Church and All Saints, and the Liberties …
  PA Bezodis, W Ison - 1957 - Athlone Press for the London County Council
• (Probably not relevant, location of archaeological site of interest in studying the Romans generally) Now in the case of Mile End in London and in Colchester (both Roman sites) we have
  evi- dence of the ancient customs connected with the pomerium being ...
• IMAGINING EARLY MODERN LONDON
  E BY - eprints.bbk.ac.uk
  ... Strype discusses the whole of Stepney and its hamlets including Mile End New Town ...
  were other forms and genres of literary comment on London's physical extension ...

Additional London results in top 100

Conclusion

Of course, there is some discretion involved in including or excluding a particular reference. If someone feels that I've left relevant results out, they can add them above. Extrapolating to the 464 results in all, we find about 25 likely references to Mile End, London as an object of discourse, similar to the number for Montreal. If a few more references were added for London, the total would still not be out of proportion to that for Montreal. If references to Adelaide (45 hits in all, including some addresses and passing mentions) were also added to the Montreal total, it would be difficult to decide that London far outweighed the other two. Joeldl 01:12, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I generally don't have much time for using Google searches to justify moves, using Google Scholar or otheriwse, but I really don't see where you are going here. Looking at hwo the neighbourhoods have been objects of study is very interesting, but not a particularly relevant criterion for the name of the article. Wikipedia naming is based on common usage, not "use of the term in scholarly contexts where the object is being studied". Factors which you are trying to discount, such as the London obsession with referring to localities in terms of tube stations, should count for the London locality. It seems to me there is enough reason to give the London locality this prominence, but even if there isn't, what is actually achieved by replacing it with a disambiguation page? No change for people looking for Montreal, one more click for people looking for London. JPD (talk) 09:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

The result will be less confusion for people looking for Mile End, Montreal; Mile End, Adelaide; or the song. And also, one less click for them (one instead of two). People looking for Mile End, London will have one extra click, but being faced with a disambiguation page is less confusing for a reader than being faced with the wrong page. Unlike a case like people looking for London, Ontario, who are probably not surprised that London takes them to London, England, most people looking for Mile End (Montreal) will be surprised that Mile End even exists, so it will take extra time for them to get their bearings compared to someone who has typed in London.

Also, I agree that the fact that "Mile End" is used in London addresses counts for something, but just not in a way that is close to being proportional to the number of Google hits that that creates. The fact that "Mile End" is referred to so commonly in Montreal despite not being a part of addresses is remarkable. As for naming, I agree we are talking about common usage, and the common usage in both cases is "Mile End", so we are dealing with a typical disambiguation problem. Most people who have heard of one haven't heard of the other.

The question is whether "Mile End" means Mile End, London much more commonly than Mile End, Montreal or any other meaning. I believe this is not the case. By a population argument, the Montreal neighbourhood predominates. By an argument concerning the frequency with which the neighbourhoods are written about, the Montreal neighbourhood appears to be at least equal to the London one. (And Wikipedia is scholarly writing after all, and the Wikipedia articles are about the neighbourhoods.) But the London one should actually be much more common than any other in order to get the name Mile End. Joeldl 22:31, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I will address the argument that the quantity of academic writing about the neighbourhoods is irrelevant. It seems to me that looking at the quantity of academic writing about a topic is a valid predictor of the likelihood that a reader will want to read a Wikipedia article about that topic. Joeldl 00:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

You are correct about the number of clicks - I was thinking that the current disambiguation notice was along the lines of the "This article is about the locality in London, UK. For the Montreal neighbourhood, see Mile End, Montreal, for other uses see Mile End (disambiguation)" that is often used in cases like this. I would agree that the Montreal area seems significant enough for this change to be made.

The population argument (even with your exaggerated figures) is absolutely irrelevant, as we are interested in the number of people that use "Mile End" to refer to each place, not the number of people actually living there. Is population a valid argument for City of London to refer to London, Ontario? Of course not! The City of London is a non-residential area which is notable for its history and its place in the centre of a metropolis. It is more relevant (although not enough in itself) to argue that if the place with the name "Mile End" was similarly significant in each metropolis, the population is 2:1 in favour of London, even before thinking about the fact that we are talking about which is the more common usage in English (something that should be taken into consideration if we really have to resort to Google searches).

You have an interesting point about academic writing, but I am not convinced. My main objection is that you are confusing two different criteria: how often a neighbourhood is discussed in academic writing and how often the name is used in academic writing to refer to the neighbourhood. These may both be relevant to the question at hand, but are definitely not the same thing, and are not adequately addressed by your Google Scholar searches. Apart from that, Wikipedia as it is currently written (reflecting the interests of Wikipedia readers) covers much more than the material covered by writings that appear in Google Scholar, especially with respect to localities.

Finally, things like history and derivation of the name are traditionally treated as relevant on Wikipedia, and I think this is appropriate. As far as I'm concerned, Petersham means Petersham, New South Wales, as I lived near there for many years and went to school there. I didn't even know Petersham existed until recently, but I'm not surprised to find it when I type it in. There are cases when a place with a derived name becomes so obviously signficant that the derivation is irrelevant (see Perth), but in general it doesn't hurt to give prominence to the place the others were named after. JPD (talk) 10:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe most people think of London, England as having a 5,000,000-plus population. The addresses containing Mile End also all contain London, so presumably they are in London in some sense. And am I mistaken or is Ken Livingstone mayor of something bigger than a tiny district? So population certainly is a relevant factor, probably the main one, in giving London, England priority over London, Ontario.

As for the "exaggerated" population figures, I assume you are saying that I underestimated the population of Mile End, London. All I did was search for wards of London containing "Mile End" in their names. I am not deliberately undercounting the population, and I do not know what the customary boundaries of Mile End are. Do you know how to define those areas that use "Mile End" in their addresses? If that can be ascertained, then perhaps there will be census data for precisely that area.

Also, mentioning the thing about the most common name in English is a misunderstanding of the intent of that rule. That rule applies to a choice of names for a single topic. For example, Firenze is less common in English than Florence for the city in Italy. It is not intended to give priority, when two different topics have the same name, to the one that is best known to English-speakers. In this case, it is quite simple. The best known name in English of Mile End, Montreal is Mile End, as is the best known name in English of Mile End, London.

As for the issue of "how often the neighbourhood is discussed in academic writing" versus "how often the name is used in academic writing to refer to the neighbourhood", I am aware of the distinction. No doubt the second has some level of importance, and this is tied in with the fact that "Mile End" is used in London addresses. (As for actual use in addresses of university departments in academic papers, it is clear that this is a sort of fluke that does not deserve greater weight than does the statement, "There are university departments in Mile End, London.") However, if all references are counted pell-mell, then these rather trivial references are given too much weight. Ordinarily, one would expect trivial references to be roughly proportional to the amount of in-depth discussion, but here that is not the case, likely because Mile End, London, is an "official" place in a way. I admit that the Google Scholar search and the analysis of search results only address the in-depth discussion issue. The fact that the number of passing references to Mile End, London (as in statements that something is located somewhere) exceeds the number for the Montreal neighbourhood is not disputed, and deserves some weight. However, since the Wikipedia articles are themselves in-depth discussions of the neighbourhoods, it is appropriate to look at the amount of comparable academic writing.

Lastly, I am unaware of any understanding on Wikipedia that the fact that one place is named for another is considered significant in these kinds of issues. If there were one, then I would say its effect would be discriminatory in favour of the UK, and it should be abandoned. To me, the argument seems frivolous. I have heard it before, but usually from the same sort of people who say that France is a Britain-related topic for spelling purposes and the like because it's closer. Of course, usually one place is named after another only if the original one had some importance, but things change over time and in a minority of cases the second place becomes equally important or more important than the first one. In these cases the etymology may be no more than a curiosity and, it seems to me, does not "save" the original place. Joeldl 01:20, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Obviously population is relevant in deciding what the London article covers. I was talking about the City of London article, which in England refers to the very old city at the heart of London, but in Ontario refers to a much more populous area. This example is not perfect, as London, Ontario has another name that it more likely to be used, but the point is still valid. I'm not sure what the population of "Mile End" is (if it is well-defined at all it would be roughly two wards at least, not less than 1.5 as you had it), but it doesn't really matter - the question is how many people would use the name, not how many write it in their address.

As for academic writing, if the proportion of academic writing devoted to individual localities were anywhere near similar to the proportion of Wikipedia covering these topics, you might have a point. However, the numbers of people looking for a Wikipedia article on the localities are not likely to reflect the amount of coverage they receive in publications included by Google Scholar. This is the key point - a primary topic is used if "there is a well known primary meaning for a term or phrase, much more used than any other (this may be indicated by a majority of links in existing articles or by consensus of the editors of those articles that it will be significantly more commonly searched for and read than other meanings)". This is the context in which I said that "in English" was relevant, not the choice between two name in Florence. The fact that Mile End is the English name for the Montreal area is not relevant to the question of how often does the name refer to the two areas. A lot fewer people using the English Wikipedia are likely to search for Mile End and want to find Montreal, not London.

You are right that being the original place is not in itself an argument, but it's not completely irrelevant, nor is it unfair to have that bias towards the UK. In reality, whenever it is relevant, it is because it means that the original location is better known because it is part of a more populous area, so should not be used in addition to this argument. However, I am not bothered by being directed to the original place in borderline cases, because it is not surprising to end up at the origin of the name. I think this case is fairly close to borderline, as the London name is more likely to be searched for, but not overwhelmingly. A dismbiguation page would be acceptable according to policy, but keeping it as is with an improved disambiguation link would be much more practical. JPD (talk) 16:27, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

The thing about English is that it is not clear that we should allow the fact that English-speakers tend to be interested in their own countries to create a bias towards the English-speaking world in the content and structure of the encyclopedia. The people at WP:BIAS would say not. Whether this should be done is a good question, but applying the "most common name in English" rule here would be wrong. That rule is intended solely for cases like Florence/Firenze and not cases such as Port Arthur massacre (Australia) / Port Arthur massacre (China) in which the greater interest among Wikipedia editors (and perhaps readers, in practice) for (recent) events in English-speaking countries is of disputed relevance. So the appropriate question in my view would be something like "How often is Mile End, Montreal, talked about in any language?" and the same question for Mile End, London. (And then one would even have to ask whether Google Scholar has a bias towards English-language sources, as has been alleged by some authorities in France.) Joeldl 18:58, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

You mentioned the "most common name in English" rule for deciding what is the common name, not me. I don't think it is relevant at all. Disambiguation is another matter altogether, and is based on entirely practical grounds, not concerns about possible bias. The criteria are links from existing articles and how often the name will be searched for. It is sensible to keep the longer term in view, and act against a bias towards recent events in the case of Port Arthur, but not to use references to "Mile End" in French articles as justification for making people seaching the English Wikipedia go through an extra page, or even English sources that use the longer name "Saint-Louis du Mile End". It's not about how important it is, or how often it is talked about, it is how likely the name is to be used. There is a good reason why fr:Mile End refers to Montreal. I don't want to ask whether Google Scholar has a bias, because I think using Google is flawed to start with. I don't see any point in restricting relevant usage to demographic studies or anything like that, either. It is simply a question of which arrangement is practically most useful and causes least inconvenience. It is not at though anyone looking for a "Mile End" would be surprised to end up at the place it was named after, and it's not more inconvenient than a disambiguation page if a linnk is provided at the top. JPD (talk) 08:59, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

You did mention English in earlier comments when you wrote the following:

• It is more relevant (although not enough in itself) to argue that if the place with the name "Mile End" was similarly significant in each metropolis, the population is 2:1 in favour of London, even before thinking about the fact that we are talking about which is the more common usage in English (something that should be taken into consideration if we really have to resort to Google searches).

I disagree with you about the English and French versions of the encyclopedia. Content and structure, including disambiguation, should as a matter of principle be free of bias towards the English-speaking world. The prominence given to one topic or the other in the encyclopedia is an example of this. This is just my opinion, but I believe the issue has not been settled the other way. The problem is, the reference to the most common meaning in English has the appearance of being an appeal to a definite rule, when in fact I believe the only rule that mentions English in that way is intended for Florence/Firenze type problems.

About the "surprise" factor, very few people who know the Mile End in Montreal know the one in London (I didn't), and people will be no less surprised than would a Londoner seeing the one in Montreal, thus learning that another place had been named for the one in London.

As for restricting to demographic studies, etc., I am not saying that that is the only relevant factor. However, the amount of academic interest in the neighbourhoods is one particularly relevant factor, and it would be drowned out in a sea of addresses if we only looked at the number of hits (on Google Scholar, this is doubly true because of the university addresses in Mile End, London). That is not to say that the appearance of "Mile End" in addresses is totally irrelevant. It just shouldn't give Mile End a 2 or 3 to 1 advantage in "importance" for the purposes of disambiguation when the two neighbourhoods are roughly equivalent in terms of population and academic interest, perhaps even with a slight edge to Montreal on both of those. Joeldl 01:37, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Mile End, Montreal etymology

Hi, I just read the Mile End, Montreal page, where it states that its name is probably derived from this place. Its history appears to begin in the nineteenth century - so, 100 years, vs 1000 years, derivation of name ... I can't see a problem about keeping things as they are, and can see no basis for arguing that they are in any way equivalent. Kbthompson 12:03, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

The question is what a Wikipedia user in 2007 would be searching for when (s)he types in "Mile End". In other words, what is the common usage today? Common usage 1000 years ago is not particularly relevant, nor is the derivation of the name. Skeezix1000 12:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the words mile and end were first spoken by people in England too, but they don't belong to them. The fact that one name is derived from the other is irrelevant. Joeldl 21:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Requested move - voting

Apologies for this, but the voting is getting embedded in the argument. Can I ask everyone to move their own votes here, to keep the argument separate. Brief reasons should be given here, more developed arguments and discussion in the section above - Hope that's OK with everyone, I believe it's the way it's normally done. Kbthompson 11:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

This is how it is often done, even though this is meant to be a discussion, not a vote. JPD (talk) 13:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Oppose - Mile End has over a thousand years of historical significance, out of proportion to its modern significance. The area is in the heart of the East End of London, was where the Peasant's Revolt camped on their march on London, where Capt. Cook lived, where Charles Booth worked and had his chapel, where the People's Palace was founded; and is the site of a major college of the University of London. The area only has a low modern population because of the park and university campus. The common usage of the term is this place. Kbthompson 11:23, 27 May 2007 (UTC) (BTW: the Pulp lyrics are about this Mile End, so it wins in the popular culture category, too)

The Google Scholar search takes into account the longer history of Mile End, London. However, it has not been written about more than the Mile End in Montreal, unless you count use in addresses and other trivial appearances. Of course, it could be argued that the use of "Mile End" in addresses is part of what makes the UK one important. This may be true, but not in a way that is proportional to the number of Google hits that that creates — one appearance in an address is not equivalent to an appearance in an article about the history of London or Montreal neighbourhoods, which is what I tried to count. Joeldl 22:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

To summarise my argument, I, like Kbthompson, oppose the move, because the arguments given for it are faulty. Population is irrelevant, goodle searches are misleading, and at any rate suggest that the London area is not less significant than the Montreal one. Common usage depends on where the name is being used, but the most common usage definitely appears to be London. Finally, moving the page achieves nothing other than making the questionable statement that the name does not more commonly refer to the London locality. JPD (talk) 13:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Moving the page means that people looking for the Montreal or Adelaide neighbourhood, or even the song, will be directed to a disambiguation page. Population is relevant, and Google Scholar searches also suggest that the Mile End in Montreal has been written about as frequently as the one in London.

Oppose - What Kbthompson said. I am also not convinced of the relevance of the Google Scholar argument, particularly when terms like 'E1' are excluded. —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Paulbrock (talk • contribs)

It cannot be excluded that "E1" occasionally appears in articles about Mile End. However, an examination of the search results not excluding including "E1" shows that almost exclusively, you get physics or economics articles, etc., whose authors' addresses appear in the article and contain "E1". An article about physics whose author has "Mile End" in the address of his university department simply does not count as a plus for Mile End, London. Joeldl 22:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Support. Based on the findings below, the references to the English and Canadian Mile Ends are roughly equal, and both are of historical significance. Skeezix1000 11:17, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Support Per own nomination. Joeldl 22:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

It seems clear,regardless of Google Scholar, Pulp, population and history of the settlements, that those of us with a UK connection are on one side of the argument, and those with a Canadian connection are on the other side. I understand there are various resolution mechanisms available in Wikipedia, but confess to not knowing much about them. Can I suggest we follow an appropriate mechanism to get a neutral commentator to make a ruling? Otherwise I suspect we are at an impasse. Paulbrock 00:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

At the moment, that counts as no clear consensus, and that would indicate the status quo should remain as is. That always leaves a bad taste in the mouth. There is an RfC process, but that's really for complaining about someone's behaviour, as far as I understand, not for resolving issues like this - they'd just say can't you guys sort it out ...

From here, we can either close and archive this discussion ourselves, or leave it open and wait for someone to read it through, reach much the same conclusion (or not). If it's left open, then it does give others a chance to comment. Kbthompson 12:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I think usually an experienced, neutral administrator comes by and closes the discussion. They take into account the balance of opinion present, the strength of the arguments, and whether it would be useful for the request to be relisted to allow more time for consensus to form. I would prefer to wait. I think the observation that people have lined up based on what they know about personally (not to mention nationality) makes consideration of the strength of the arguments particularly important. Joeldl 01:31, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Would everyone agree that if no move takes place, the Montreal neighbourhood should be given its own link in the disambiguation header? JPD (talk) 14:23, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

OPPOSE Mile End, London is steeped in histroical significance and needs to stay. Tamatisk 14:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I would agree with JPD's suggestion. I take it tamatisk is objecting to the move, not JPD's suggestion for an additional disamb. Kbthompson 15:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with JPD's suggestion, in case this article is not moved. Joeldl 01:31, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

• Support no primary usage. Vegaswikian 16:47, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Support I'm from London, but if the people of Montréal believe their Mile End is notable enough for equal prominence, I see no reason to offend them. We're not talking about moving Mile End (Montreal) to Mile End! If a Londoner types "Mile End" and finds a disambiguation page on the way to the correct article, he/she will probably learn something in the process, which cannot be a bad thing. Historical significance is a dubious argument, because it makes older countries seem more important. Wikipedia is supposed to be a place for free sharing of knowledge between people of all nationalities, not a place to reinvent the British Empire. Having said that, I hope the people of England, Arkansas will not demand equal prominence... Mtford 15:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Thank you very much for the support. I do believe the two Mile Ends deserve a disambiguation page, but I would like to assure those who oppose it that I am not offended. Joeldl 19:04, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. Although it is unclear whether the significance of Mile End (Montreal) is enough to force the London suburb to the title Mile End (London), it does clearly deserve greater prominence, and I have added it explicitly to the hatlink of this article, as suggested by JPD. --Stemonitis 09:02, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

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