Talk:Mail-order bride

This entry needs a heavy rewrite

It's riddled with bias, negative comments, allegations and somewhat bigoted. The introduction is largely one-sided. Not enough citations. No mention of laws regarding international marriage brokerage in other countries. The history section is shockingly underdeveloped. For example: In 1619, when the Jamestown Colony had a need for more women, the Virginia Company of London sent shipments of mail-order brides from England in return for tobacco. More information can be found in Women's Life and Work in the Southern Colonies by Julia Spruill and other books about women in the Jamestown colony. There are similar history books about international marriage brokerage around the world including Europe, Australia, Japan, China, South America and so on as well. Particularly the Victorian-era marriage industry in western countries. I'm frustrated, because I don't have the skills to rewrite this entry (I'm still struggling to understand Wikipedia's editorial policies and how some editing functions work). I hope this entry will be flagged for the attention of a skilled Wikipedia editor who would be willing to spend time rewriting and editing this. Thank you. 0zero9nine (talk) 05:12, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

The article is certainly open to any new information that comes from a credible, dependable source. But I disagree with this statement: "It's riddled with bias, negative comments, allegations and somewhat bigoted." Not true. On the contrary, the article is referencing highly credible sources and fleshing out ideas that are relevant for the subject. If you have other information to source and include feel free to do so. "Negative comments?" Where? Off-hand "negative comments" are not allowed in a Wikipedia article. But to simply land in the article and completely dismiss it as "biased" because you are not comfortable with some of the content is not productive. Also: do not think that the content that is included from credible sources may be removed simply because you feel it is "biased" or "bigoted." That is your opinion. Wikipedia content is not judged based on whether someone thinks it is "biased," but rather the origin of the information in reliable sources. Read more here: WP:NOR. Thank you. Computer1200 (talk) 16:45, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

The construction of a source as "reliable" is as much a matter of opinion as anything else, and that's doubly true for non-academic sources. Even Wikipedia's guidelines for reliability acknowledge as much by pointing to subjective criteria such as "reputation". It's hard to conceive of an assessment of a source's reliability trumping an assessment of its appropriateness. Filling this article with xenophobic, alarmist material from modern "reliable" sources makes about as much sense as filling the article on civil rights with racist material from Southern newspapers in the 1960s (which were, of course, considered to be "reliable"), or filling the article on Adam Smith with Marxist polemics.

The article in question has an obvious ideological bias. The fact that the bias in question is common enough to be reflected in mainstream periodicals does not legitimize it. When an extreme and controversial claim or characterization is made, citing a newspaper article is not sufficient....or at least it shouldn't be. The number of academic sources in this article is appallingly low. My recommendation would be to start fresh and actually work from peer-reviewed scholarship on the history of the mail order bride phenomenon, filling in the gaps with popular sources, rather than cobbling together a biased mess out of popular periodicals and online articles, which is what we have here. 72.242.187.42 (talk) 15:04, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but--again--just because you do not like the content that comes from reliable journalistic sources does not mean that Wikipedia does not allow those sources. Wikipedia is governed by rules dictating what sources are reliable, not whether you think it is "biased." If Wiki was based on people's judgments of biased, it would be impossible because everyone has different opinions of bias. "xenophobic?" "alarmist?" I disagree. But of course, you will have your opinion. As mentioned above, "do not think that the content that is included from credible sources may be removed simply because you feel it is "biased" or "bigoted." That is your opinion. Wikipedia content is not judged based on whether someone thinks it is "biased," but rather the origin of the information in reliable sources. Read more here: WP:NOR" If you want to ban all mainstream periodical publications that meet Wiki standards because you think they are biased, then you need to talk to Wiki staff -- not post it here in the discussion. Because reliable sources will *always* be allowed -- regardless of personal opinion, or whether you think a reliable source is biased.

As the article now stands, it is mutilated from what it was before, long, wordy, with much of the content referencing no citation at all whatsoever. Those will come out first. Do not make large changes until you discuss here.Computer1200 (talk) 01:49, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Drive-by comments

The foregoing is TLDR, but as it stands the article is too verbose, too rambling, too detailed, and too WP:NOTMANUAL. "Violence against" material belongs only to the extent problems peculiar to mail-order brides are being described -- there's violence against all kinds of wives (and husbands too, come to mention it). These specific awful stories serve no purpose. EEng (talk) 18:18, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Updated

I have updated the article by removing a huge load of redundant information, and consolidating the article in three major categories, following the introduction: history, legal issues, mail order brides situations & stories, and then country-specific information. Please include anything that is specific to a country in this last section only, or the article will get very messy quickly. Add all stories of mail-order brides that are more narrative in nature (with appropriate citation) in the Mail order bride situations and stories section and indicate the country and/or region.

Also, there were a number of issues with proper referencing of sources. Please remember that all material posted must reference a Wikipedia approved source of information. See Wikipedia's rules for citations here: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources It is not allowed to post information that does not reference a reliable source that can be verified.

Computer1200 (talk) 21:11, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Les filles du roi (Canada, historical)

Odd to see no mention of les filles du roi, the "king's daughters" who were the original group to have immigrated solely for the purpose of marriage and colonisation of what was New France centuries ago. Even Uncyclopedia gives this key bit of Canadian heritage at least a line in the history section. 66.102.83.61 (talk) 06:03, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

"Their Customers"

I like how this article cleverly says "their customers" in order to sway the easily swayed reader to think that because people like myself who have decided to try international marriage (without a dating agency but with a website) are only disputing the Mail order bride label as derogatory because we are biased there for unable to sort fact from fiction when in fact the people who chosen not to are actually the ones in the dark because they have only hearsay and biased media to rely on as their source of information as opposed to actually getting to know them, visiting them and then seeing how misinformed the media is about this issue. Not that all of the hearsay is wrong but it's grossly misrepresented and over generalized. Any one who has taken to the time to really get to know the women overseas without prejudice can clearly see how grossly misinformed most people are about this issue. They also generalized because of their is an international boarder (different countries) between two websites and two people it (the female human being) is a mail order bride but if there is no boarder (same country)and they're "advertising themselves for marriage they are not. The women are labeled as commodities and the men are reduced to johns just for crossing boarders in dating even if they are truly in love in a mutually respectful relationship. Does that in any way make sense or seem humane? I understand where the label came from and in the past maybe mostly only sleezebags did it but I would think that modern humans would advance with modern times. Only a few decades ago online dating was considered ridiculous and now its common place. Let's grow with the times people. You see "the customers" have first hand information where as the public has second, third or maybe even forth and fifth hand information and that's why we "johns" see it as deroagatory because we can see the affect it has in the women being labeled and mistreated due to the labeling. Ultimately, people who are negatively labeled are also undervalued and under protected and become prime targets (both men and women) for just the sort of characters that fit the stereotypes that you assume all do. When I first started international dating I had no idea that it was considered to be mail order briding because i only saw human beings not commodities, to me it was just another dating website with lots of attractive women. It was only later after losing a 15 year friendship over the matter that I realized that I was considered to be a mail order john for doing so and it was then that I could see the ignorance surrounding the issue.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.30.9.132 (talk) 11:10, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

It's "border" not boarder. Furthermore, the label doesn't target everyone crossing international lines; Martha Stewart Haskell likely isn't a mail-order bride, and the war bride and war children of a soldier actually stationed abroad are also in a different position from someone seeking a spouse in a country to which they have no other discernible tie. In some cases, these relationships are a means to family-class status and jumping the queue ahead of independent immigrants (with much-needed qualifications) by persons who would likely otherwise not even qualify for a non-working tourist visa. There are also huge disparities in age (sometimes the two are an entire generation apart) and wealth (some of the countries involved actually have "remittances" - money sent back to relatives by overseas workers and emigrants - as a significant percentage of GDP). To dismiss the risks of romance scams or spousal abuse just because one relationship happened to work out is naïve - we have WP:OR to keep this sort of anecdotal evidence from being used to make blind generalisations. K7L (talk) 19:09, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Since you could not resist a personal attack it seems you take my comments personal. All of the things you focus on are shallow and materialistic. Most of these people just look at each other as people and that might be a strange thing to a lot of people that age (between adults)is invisible or material wealth is invisible but that's why so many people go this direction, to escape the judgmentalism and shallow criteria for choosing a mate. You obviously think there is only one way to do things in the world and that's your way as though you are the person that determines who can be with whom (did I get it right?). Sorry dude but you are not God and what is legally done between consenting adults is not your business and just because it's international doesn't make it your business no matter how much you don't approve of something. You can discuss it all day, pass judgement, jump up and down, but what goes on between two legal adults legally is a private matter

As always there are those that will take advantage of any thing that they can and use it for the wrong reasons, but your fear mongering is simply your way of projecting your own fears and labeling people that don't deserve to be labeled. You're doing more harm than good but you can't see that because you haven't taken time to get to know the people you are doing harm to. It's not the scammers that you're harming because scammers don't care, it's the genuine people that you're harming because they (especially innocent women) are the ones that get mistreated as a result of labeling, generalizing and misinformation. Labeling, generalizing and misinformation is actually getting women killed because it sets up a situation where no one cares about their situation and believe that they deserve it because they're all believed to be scammers. You've obviously never talked to anyone who has been labeled this way unfairly and seen the pain and damage that it causes. (feel free to correct my spelling, grammar or anything else. I actually appreciate it because unlike you I make mistakes from time to time). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.102.175.165 (talk) 04:43, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Au contraire, pretending scams and abuse don't exist when both sometimes happen is the sort of ignorance that gets women killed. K7L (talk) 13:25, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

International Marriage Broker Regulation Act of 2005

The article mentions the International Marriage Broker Regulation Act of 2005; however this act is only of use for women that wish to marry a man from the USA. Which acts exist for other countries ? Can this be mentioned ? 80.200.229.164 (talk) 13:46, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

international adoption

It has been pointed out that there is a discrepancy between how international adoptions are regarded ("saving a child") and how international marriages are regarded ("buying a wife").

Really? One might want to look at the current political situation where Vladimir Putin's Russia has ended all international adoption to United States of America families using one child's death as an unfortunate pretext. There have been a few other high-profile incidents, including a US church-backed group in post-quake Haïti caught trying to remove "orphans" via the Dominican Republic while the parents were very much alive and a group "l'Arche de Zoë" which was caught in a similar scandal in Africa. Not all nations allow their spawn to be taken through international adoption. Prospective adoptive parents get a free pass to a point (for instance, a blind eye is turned to the pattern of them not wanting older kids, problem kids, siblings placed together but being willing to spend thousands to go abroad for the "cute widdle baybee") but any sign of fraud on the part of an adoption agency is pilloried in the media. K7L (talk) 18:39, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Turkish Mail-order-brides?

A large part of the male Turkish immigrants in Germany prefer a Turkish wife from Turkey.--95.113.253.182 (talk) 19:32, 24 March 2016 (UTC)

Citation overkill

There's a fair few places (the China, Russia, South Korea and Taiwan sections) where there's a huge amount of citations for a small amount of information. It's almost certain that some of the citations don't add any new information, and it would be beneficial to remove some that don't actually have any unique value. Alcherin (talk) 20:03, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

There are Chinese Mailorder-brides but why there are no Articles in the Internet about that topic?

http://www.chinesewifes.com/Pages/default.aspx http://www.rosebrides.com/chinese-brides.html http://www.mynewchinesewife.com/chinese-brides-is-a-mail-order-bride-the-way-to-go/ http://chinesemates.com/ --141.19.228.15 (talk) 19:26, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

These are WP:PRIMARY sources that don't directly discuss the details of the Chinese mail-order bride industry. The mere existence of websites dealing in Chinese mail-order brides does not indicate the WP:Notability of the industry. Reliable WP:SECONDARY sources that discuss Chinese mail-order brides are necessary before detail on them can be included in this article. Alcherin (talk) 19:53, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

Difference between Bride-buying and Mail-order brides?

Hi everyone! I'm doing a group assignment in my English class, and we're working on making some big changes to the bride-buying article. Something I've noticed is that most research done on bride-buying is specific to mail-order brides. Do mail-order brides apply to bride-buying? Or are they separate? Thanks in advance. Mop8888 (talk) 05:39, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Two different social phenomena, IMO. Acwilson9 (talk) 23:26, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Physicians

"52 percent of Russia’s workforce is made up of women, yet according to some sources they often hold low positions of prominence in their home country and work jobs with less respect and lower wage (such as teaching or physician positions)". Physicians have a low wage in Russia? Does the word physician refer to something other than a doctor or are doctors paid poorly in Russia? ☣Yutsi — Talk/Edits 00:04, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Maybe a large percentage of Russian Mail-order brides belong to ethnic minorities who are often more poor than ethnic Russians. The average American male is not able to see a difference between ethnic Russians and white Russian Citizens of another ethnic background.--88.66.132.241 (talk) 15:47, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 June 2019

"Добрый день, пожалуйста, удалите абзац "A mail-order bride is a woman who lists herself in catalogs and is selected by a man for marriage. In the twentieth century, the trend was primarily towards women living in developing countries seeking men in more developed nations. In the twenty-first century, the trend is now based primarily on internet-based meeting places which do not per se qualify as mail-order bride services. The majority of the women listed in the twentieth-century and twenty-first-century services are from Southeast Asia, countries of the former Eastern Bloc and (to a lesser extent) from Latin America.[1] Since the collapse of the Soviet Union large numbers of eastern European women have advertised themselves in such a way, primarily from Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, and Moldova. Men who list themselves in such publications are referred to as "mail-order husbands," although this is much less common.

The term "mail-order bride" is both criticized by owners (and customers) of international marriage agencies and used by them as an easily recognizable term.[2]" Эта информация недостоверна Ladayougova (talk) 16:33, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Google translate says: "Good afternoon, please delete the paragraph" (...) "This information is not valid." ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 16:42, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

 Not done for now: Please explain the specific reason(s) why you believe this information is not valid and should be removed from the article. Please reply here on the talk page, and then reopen this request. (Change "yes" to "no" above.) ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 16:42, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Motivations and stories - Eastern Europe

1)With 4,138,273 more women than men from the ages of 15 to 64,

This count is too precise. It changes daily!

2)52 percent of Russia's workforce is made up of women, yet according to some sources they often hold low positions of prominence in their home country and work jobs with less respect and lower wages (such as teaching or physician positions);[15] and women earn 43 percent of what men do.[16]

This references reports which are 10 years old (not to mention it would be more reliable to use first-hand reports by the Russian government.) Also teachers and doctors are not positions with "less respect". Quite the contrary.

3)...as well as the fact that a large portion of successful males are emigrating out of Russia.[20] While there may be some emigration, and while it may be substantial, the "successful" part is rather doubtful. Also [20] source is somehow unavailable from my location (which is Russian Federation)

4)In testimony before the United States Senate, Professor Donna Hughes said that two thirds of Ukrainian women interviewed wanted to live abroad and this rose to 97% in the resort city of Yalta.[21]

Well, at least Yalta's women's wish is now granted, for they now live happily as part of Russian Federation =D (Sorry, this whole comment was meant to be about "why are there Ukrainian women and Russian city in a single sentence... and then I realised.)

185.150.154.80 (talk) 13:35, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

You are right! And I still ask myself is there any reliable source that proves that Russia is still a main source country of Eastern European Mail-order brides? Russia is far away from being called poor and Russian women are only portrayed as good-looking by the Anglo-Saxon Entertainment Industry but in fact are not much more good-looking on average than for example British, German or Dutch women.--88.65.185.114 (talk) 11:16, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Attribution

Some sentences in this article are identical to sentences in Personal advertisement. As I was writing that article, there was content that also was applicable to this one, and I copied my work here. Schazjmd (talk) 00:18, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Russian Women in Senior Management

The data cited which states that 43% of senior management in Russia are women does not support or undermine the reasons provided for why Russian women seek foreign husbands. It should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jvitray (talk • contribs) 15:11, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree. Neither source mentions mail-order brides. I have removed it. Schazjmd (talk) 15:17, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

A large part or even the Majority of Russian women who are seeking foreign husbands or Boyfriends belong to ethnic minorities.--92.74.242.11 (talk) 14:22, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

Japan

For possible inclusion, if some Wikipedia editor would do further (secondary) research in the media: I recall reading in US media circa 2000 that Russian-Siberian women were being recruited to marry Japanese men in Japan. If I recall correctly, purported driving forces included economic hardships in the Vladivostok area and a reduced willingness of young native-born Japanese women to be submissive in their relationships with Japanese men. Example articles:

• https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2000/06/08/commentary/world-commentary/russian-women-turn-to-the-net-for-love-and-a-life-abroad/
• https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2004/08/12/national/net-sites-cater-to-quest-for-russian-brides/
• https://www.academia.edu/4224664/Russian_Wives_in_Japan_Identity_Re_construction_and_its_Implications_for_Social_Integration_of_Foreign_Spouse_
• viewer.html?pdfurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.jstage.jst.go.jp%2Farticle%2Fjsij%2F4%2F1%2F4_20%2F_pdf%2F-char%2Fen&clen=361369 (Japan Social Innovation Journal: Vol 4 No 1 2014; Gender politics and its impact on female marriage migration: Women from former Soviet Union countries in Japan, by Viktoriya Kim)

Acwilson9 (talk) 23:26, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

These women belong mainly to ethnic minorities because Russian women are not submissive and the women from other post-Soviet countries are Central Asians mostly.--88.66.153.153 (talk) 15:31, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

New less-pejorative title?

I suggest "Female marriage migration" as a replacement title for this article. Acwilson9 (talk) 22:47, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

I think the current title is best, per WP:COMMONNAME. Schazjmd (talk) 23:03, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

@Schazjmd: OK. (If we WERE to change it, I'd suggest retaining the original title as a REDIRECT.) Acwilson9 (talk) 23:26, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

In Germany the female Marriage Migrants come mainly from Muslim countries and marry Muslim men of their own ethnic group or Nationality who live in Germany.--Urs Herbstlicht (talk) 16:50, 2 September 2022 (UTC)--Urs Herbstlicht (talk) 16:50, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Article is outdated, needs a refresh

The statistics are 10 years old, most cited sources even older נוף כרמל (talk) 20:41, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

If you can find more recent reliable sources, please improve it! Schazjmd (talk) 21:09, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Demographics of mail order brides

In the lead, I find two statements dubious: The majority of the women making use of these services from the 1970s to the present are from East Asia, Southeast Asia, Eastern Europe, and Latin America.[1] and Since the 1990s, large numbers of eastern European women have advertised themselves in such a way, primarily from Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova.

The issue here is that it isn't established anywhere in the article where the majority of the mail order brides originate from, and the sole citation here (Robert Scholes, Appendix A. [1]) doesn't support this statement either.

Robert Scholes's Appendix A only concerns immigrant brides to the Anglosphere "and Europe". So it's misleading to use it to describe the global mail order bride industry. There's an enormous mail order bride industry that caters to men in South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, etc. Most mail order brides to these countries are Southeast Asian women.

Where is the typical mail order bride from, globally? That's a question I hope to answer with citations later.

But moving on, there's no mention in Scholes that since the 1990s, large numbers of women from Moldova, Belarus or Georgia have advertised themselves as such. It would seem that this is a synthesis from the main body, where reactionary claims from Lukashenko, for example, are noted. But I'm not seeing any actual data or scholarly claims that a significant share of the mail order brides, globally, are Moldovan, Georgian or Belarussian. Scholes does not mention any of these countries. So I don't see these as leadworthy.

All I see in Scholes is on pp. 1-2:

Based on a scanning of the services listed and information provided by the agencies themselves, we may estimate that between 100,000 and 150,000 women from a variety of countries (including the United States, Canada, Europe, and Australia) annually advertise themselves as available for marriage.

The great majority of these women are from two major areas: Southeast Asia, including the Philippines, and Russia and other countries of the former Soviet Union. The Philippines provides a large number of the Asian listings, despite the fact that "mail-order bride" activities have been illegal there since 1986, while Thailand, China, Indonesia, Malaysia, Korea, and Japan are also seen often as the woman's native country.

In recent years, a large increase in listings has been due to the influx of services focused on women of Russia and the former Soviet Union Nearly half (69) of the 153 services listed in one source feature such women. In addition to Russia itself, the Ukraine is the most common country of origin.

The agencies vary considerably in the number of women listed, the geographical origin of the women, and in the length of time they have been in business. One of the largest and oldest of them is Cherry Blossoms, which has been operating since 1974 and lists over 6,000 women at any one time. This company's listings reflect the general pattern of national origin of the women seeking husbands: of the 6,000, over 4,600 are from Asia (3,050 from the Philippines), 1,700 from the former Soviet Union (mostly from Russia and Ukraine), and others from Latin and South America and Europe.

This is a good source for the demographics of mail order brides in the West, at least up to time when it was published, but cannot reflect on the global mail order bride phenomenon, which includes the Western as well as Eastern markets. 2600:100C:B013:3460:0:4A:7296:1301 (talk) 15:43, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Recent edits by Cruces crux

I've recently reverted several edits by a new editor (Cuces crux) who appears to be making the same edits as the recently banned editor Alikima. Their edits are also very similar to a previous editkor with the screenname "LeanaAndYoung".

Most of their edits appear to be stealth removals of content, as well as the addition of unsourced or misrepresentations of content.

They also have made erroneous allegations of failure to verify. For intance, on 19:07 26 February 2024, they removed content cited with Marchbank and Letherby (2007), with the explanation that "Pages 194-5 in this book don't mention any of this https://books.google.com/books?id=KeXpAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA194-z"

However, comparing the citation in the Wikipedia to the link in Cruces crux's edit summary, we see that they have erred. Their link is to the second edition of the book, ublished in 2014. The citation in the Wiki is for the first edition of the book, published in 2007:

Many of these marriage agencies are based near women in developing countries (such as [[Colombia]], China, Thailand, and the Philippines).<ref>{{cite book |title=Introduction to Gender: Social Science Perspectives |last1=Marchbank |first1=Dr. Jennifer |last2=Letherby |first2=Prof. Gayle |date=2007|pages=194–195 |isbn=978-1405858441}}</ref>

The 2007 first edition is not the same book as the second edition; the same content is no longer found on the same pages. In reality, the first edition does verify; and Marchbank cites a study showing that +10,000 were from countries in Asia and Latin America (including China), compared to just 4,000 from Europe. 2603:8080:1F00:4882:CD4B:5F00:B01C:E334 (talk) 10:20, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia just shows how unrealible it is

In the section demoghraphics it says 'white, highly educated, succesful. Very vague definitions. Succesful in what? Certanly not women. Highly educated in what? There isn't a dfenitive information to know the majority of the demogprahics. The source is super vague and old nad full of misinformation and bias. Mods get ery offended without any proof that my arguments are not credible so by definition this mods are biased Onlyloss73 (talk) 23:42, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The source isn't vague. It explains exactly what it considers educated and successful. --Onorem (talk) 00:13, 8 April 2024 (UTC)