Talk:Lithotomy
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[edit]Hey all,
This article says that lithotomy was named for Ammonius Lithotomos. This makes no sense at all: the word "lithotomos" is directly derived from the Greek roots "lith-" for stone and "tom-" for cut. If anything, it would seem that Lithotomos' name must instead be derived from his most famous innovation, as the Roman general Scipio was named "Africanus" for his military victory over Carthage. Does anyone else see what I mean? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.207.153 (talk) 20:53, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
FV
[edit]The source cited does not say that he invented the perineal cystolithotomy. The source has problems but lets start with reading and summarizing it accuratly.
- In 1000, [[Abu al-Qasim al-Zahrawi]] (Abulcasis), in his ''[[Al-Tasrif]]'', described a more successful extraction of bladder and kidney stones from the [[urinary bladder]] using a new instrument he invented—a lithotomy [[scalpel]] with two sharp cutting edges—and a new technique he invented—perineal [http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/cystolithotomy cystolithotomy]—which allowed him to crush a large stone inside the bladder, "enabling its piecemeal removal." This innovation was important to the development of bladder stone surgery as it decreased the [[death]] rates previously caused by earlier attempts at this operation.Abdel-Halim RE, Altwaijiri AS, Elfaqih SR, Mitwalli AH (2003). "Extraction of urinary bladder stone as described by Abul-Qasim Khalaf Ibn Abbas Alzahrawi (Albucasis) (325-404 H, 930-1013 AD). A translation of original text and a commentary" (PDF). Saudi Med J. 24 (12): 1283–91. PMID 14710270.
{{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter|month=ignored (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) Failed verification|1)This is not an accurate summary of the source. 2) the commentary in the source is contradicted by the sources it cites see al-Zahrāwī, Abū al-Qāsim Khalaf ibn ʻAbbās; Studies, Gustave E. von Grunebaum Center for Near Eastern (May 2011). Albucasis on surgery and instruments. University of California Press. pp. 12–. ISBN 9780520015326. Retrieved 17 May 2011.{{cite book}}: Check date values in:|year=/|date=mismatch (help) also Prioreschi, Plinio (2001). A History of Medicine: Byzantine and Islamic medicine. Horatius press. ISBN 9781888456042. Retrieved 17 May 2011.|date=May 2011}}
- In 1000, [[Abu al-Qasim al-Zahrawi]] (Abulcasis), in his ''[[Al-Tasrif]]'', described a more successful extraction of bladder and kidney stones from the [[urinary bladder]] using a new instrument he invented—a lithotomy [[scalpel]] with two sharp cutting edges—and a new technique he invented—perineal [http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/cystolithotomy cystolithotomy]—which allowed him to crush a large stone inside the bladder, "enabling its piecemeal removal." This innovation was important to the development of bladder stone surgery as it decreased the [[death]] rates previously caused by earlier attempts at this operation.Abdel-Halim RE, Altwaijiri AS, Elfaqih SR, Mitwalli AH (2003). "Extraction of urinary bladder stone as described by Abul-Qasim Khalaf Ibn Abbas Alzahrawi (Albucasis) (325-404 H, 930-1013 AD). A translation of original text and a commentary" (PDF). Saudi Med J. 24 (12): 1283–91. PMID 14710270.
see the other sources as well J8079s (talk) 04:40, 26 May 2011 (UTC)
- Can you expand on the first point. For the second one, it doesn't look like the 2 references you listed were cited by the article in the first place. Al-Andalusi (talk) 17:07, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
- 4. Spink MS, Lewis IL. Albucassis on surgery and instruments (a definitive edition of the Arabic text with English translation and commentary). London (UK): Wellcome Institute of the History of Medicine; 1973. p. VII-XV, 1-7, 280-283, 348-352,410-423. This is the source listed above (different issue same book) For the word for word (see page 414 in the foot notes) [1] Be back in a minute on point 1 J8079s (talk) 20:11, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
- point 1 what the source says: "That innovation in the technique of perineal cystolithotomy, introduced by Alzahrawi, was of considerable practical anatomical significance." elsewhere same source (yours) His original contributions remarkably improved the technique of cystolithotomy and reduced its risks. this quote should be neutralized (the part about the risk) by adding "author says" as there is not enough in the text to support it.
- 4. Spink MS, Lewis IL. Albucassis on surgery and instruments (a definitive edition of the Arabic text with English translation and commentary). London (UK): Wellcome Institute of the History of Medicine; 1973. p. VII-XV, 1-7, 280-283, 348-352,410-423. This is the source listed above (different issue same book) For the word for word (see page 414 in the foot notes) [1] Be back in a minute on point 1 J8079s (talk) 20:11, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
a quick summary: "cystolithotomy" (breaking the stone to remove it) is recorded by Celsius who credits Ammonious Albucassis has new techniques, using "forceps" to break the stone and drilling stones impacted in the urethra. For contested edits its always true that "this source says foo" as opposed to just saying "Foo" read carefuly J8079s (talk) 21:35, 28 May 2011 (UTC)
other sources
[edit]- ^ Stoller, Marshall L.; Meng, Maxwell V. (2007-06-08). Urinary stone disease: the practical guide to medical and surgical management. Humana Press. pp. 8+. ISBN 9781588292193. Retrieved 29 May 2011.chapter 1 and just brief mention on page 671"ammonious"
- ^ Bishop, William John (1995). The Early history of surgery. Barnes & Noble Publishing. pp. 115–. ISBN 9781566197984. Retrieved 29 May 2011.
- ^ Ellis, Harold (2001). A History of Surgery. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 9781841101811. Retrieved 29 May 2011.
- ^ Zimmerman, Leo M.; Veith, Ilza (1993-08). Great Ideas in the History of Surgery. Norman Publishing. ISBN 9780930405533. Retrieved 29 May 2011.
{{cite book}}: Check date values in:|date=(help) - ^ Garrison, Fielding Hudson (1913). An introduction to the history of medicine: with medical chronology, suggestions for study and bibliographic data. W.B. Saunders company. Retrieved 29 May 2011.
I am just dumping these here for now J8079s (talk) 16:44, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
Portrait of Jan de Doot - used for 'kidney stone' removed and 'bladder stone' removed
[edit]In this article, the caption to the picture of Jan de Doot states that he is showing a kidney stone he reportedly removed himself. However, the exact same picture is used in the 'bladder stone' article, where the caption states that he is showing a bladder stone he removed himself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.159.214.40 (talk) 01:43, 27 October 2012 (UTC)