Talk:List of Green Bay Packers starting quarterbacks
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List of Green Bay Packers starting quarterbacks is the main article of the "Green Bay Packers players" series, a current featured topic candidate. A featured topic should exemplify Wikipedia's very best work, and is therefore expected to meet several criteria. Please feel free to leave comments.
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Is it really fair to say that any of the people prior to 1947 was officially a quarterback? The reference in this page doesn't actually use the term 'QB' for any players until 1947 for Jack Jacobs. Since it was contemporary to be using much different formations than the modern era, I would contend that, unless someone held the position of quarterback for a team, the person who threw for the most yards was not necessarily a quarterback, as any of the 4 tailbacks would potentially throw the ball. It seems more reasonable for this list to make a note of this, and then list the position players starting in 1947. Thoughts? Rohdeaa (talk) 04:27, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Looking further at the Quarterback entry, I see the position used to be called "Blocking Back" of which I see one for every season before 1947. I will be updating the Quarterback entries to reflect the 'Blocking Back' position. If you have comments, please leave them. Rohdeaa (talk) 04:46, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I just went by who threw the most yards. I honestly don't know what position they play. How ever you change it is fine with me. gilliganfanatic (talk)
Why are there two entries in the table for the 1921 season? Every other season that had two or more QBs start a game has them on the same line, so why is 1921 special? – PeeJay20:55, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@WikiOriginal-9 and Yankees10: I plan on working on this list shortly to bring to WP:FL. Before I do this, I have a few things I wanted to run past you both:
The sourcing for "starting QB" before the 1947/1950 range appears to be non-existent. As such, I am inclined to remove all entries before that from any existing tables (more on that later). My plan was to add a prose section titled something like "Pre-1947" that explains briefly the differences in positions from early football to now and then highlight some of the key passers from the pre-1947 era that have been identified as "QBs". Think Herber, Mathys, Dunn, Isbell and Comp. If I take this to WP:FL, I don't think I can get any pre-1947 tabular data past a source review.
Now that I have added in "Years as starting QB" with sourcing to support all the tabular data, are you both ok with my removal of the old tables again? The only difference is knowing the exact number of games started per season. I think that level of granular data is more appropriate for a PFR search and not Wikipedia per WP:NOTSTATS (notwithstanding the fact that the way the table is built, its terribly illegible). The new table provides much more encyclopedic and functional (sortable) summary of the topic by creating a list based off of the QBs as the first column (not based off of the season), summarizing their years with the Packers, the years they started and their overall record. I could also add a Notes section that could provide a little context (like for Seneca Wallace, the Notes section could say "Wallace started one game in 2013 after an injury the previous week to Aaron Rodgers").
Why was the revision featuring a table with the starting quarterbacks by year from 1949-present removed? Nearly every single person looking up starting quarterbacks lists on Wikipedia is looking for the information presented in this format. I understand the reasons for this page being a little different and the uncertainties of who exactly started in the early years. But the table organizing the QBs by year is an important part of what makes all of these articles so useful. I implore everyone to allow that information to remain as a separate table. Brandon Lisi (talk) 14:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
It is interesting that you are able to speak for every single reader on Wikipedia. Regardless, our MOS prefers sortable tables over static tables. That static table is duplicative of the info already listed, as well. « Gonzo fan2007(talk) @ 14:31, 14 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
My previous message was poorly phrased and I didn’t mean to imply that I speak for Wikipedia users. I admit this might just be a preference of my own, but I suspect it applies to other Wikipedia users as well.
Suppose, for instance, you wanted to know how many games Jordan Love and Malik Willis each started in 2024; or how many starts each Packers quarterback had in 1991. How would you answer a question like that with the current table? I think it’s relevant that every other starting quarterback article on Wikipedia organizes the data this way (including other old franchises like the Bears). Because that format is being used by 31 other teams, I think readers will have the expectation that these types of articles have an answer to a question like the one I posed above.
By adding back in the additional table that showcases each quarterback start by year, you’re adding additional (useful) information to this article that is currently missing. Brandon Lisi (talk) 02:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
And while I have read the explanation you posted above, I don’t agree that listing the starting quarterbacks by year is “overly granular,” “illegible,” or “an excessive listing of unexplained statistics.”
Obviously, you’ve contributed a lot of work to this page, and I think the current table is useful, but I think your work will only be enhanced by adding back in the other table. Brandon Lisi (talk) 03:06, 18 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
So, per your logic, if someone wants to make a change to one of these tables, to improve its function and sortability, they would then have to spend hundreds of hours doing it to all the other teams' tables? Wikipedia is a work in progress, there's no rush and just because other things exist, it doesn't mean this is bad in any way. This went through a featured review process (Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Green Bay Packers starting quarterbacks/archive1) where I made clear my rationale and this was approved as is. I would love all the other QB lists to look like this, which match our desire to have summarized information in sortable tables, but I just don't have the table or energy to work on other teams.
TO answer your questions, if you want granular statistical information, you can go to PFR.com, ESPN.com, NFL.com, etc. Individual season pages, as well as individual player pages, provide additional information and staistics if you want to stay within the Wikipedia environment. « Gonzo fan2007(talk) @ 14:23, 20 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If you have the energy to continue explaining this to me: could you help me understand why we couldn’t just keep the starting quarterbacks list by year as a separate table in a different section of the article?
To the best of my knowledge, individual season pages, individual player pages, PFR, espn, and NFL.com do not have this information easily accessible, if at all. I think it really makes all of the starting quarterback Wikipedia articles very useful and it would be a shame if it were removed from 31 other teams, as you suggest. Brandon Lisi (talk) 14:33, 20 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Because it duplicates the information already provided, doubles the length of the page, and is quite frankly an ugly looking table with confusing small text that isn't clearly explain. Lastly, and most importantly, the topic of this list is a "list of people", thus the table should list out those people; it is not a list of seasons and what happened in each of those seasons. « Gonzo fan2007(talk) @ 14:46, 20 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t agree that it’s an ugly looking table with “small text that isn’t clearly explained.” I think it’s actually quite easy to understand the information being conveyed and that it adds something to the article that is currently missing. But I don’t think I’m going to convince you at this point, so I’m going to bow out and hope that at some point in the future this decision is reversed by other editors or that we can somehow add this missing information back into the article. Thanks for your time. Brandon Lisi (talk) 14:49, 20 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Although, I’m coming around on your final point, and that this information probably belongs in “list of Green Bay Packers seasons” rather than this article. Not sure if there’s ever been an effort to add a row to those tables. Brandon Lisi (talk) 14:52, 20 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
