Talk:List of Dacian plant names

Untitled

I'm going to use this talk page to detail the source of every entry, which is the only way to get things done:

• Adila---I took it from [1]. On page 22 this source says that Adila is the Dacian equivalent for Romanian Iarba balaurului (Dragon's grass or Dragon's herb). Haven't been able to find another source that says this, so it is pending verification. From what I know, Iarba balaurului is a regional name for Persicaria bistorta (which interestingly was once known in English as Dragonwort), so I indicated that in the text, but Iarba balaurului might also be applied to other plants, so my identification is provisional.
• Amalusta---This particular spelling I took from [2]. This site cites particular manuscripts as well as particular passages, but I have not found the key to its abbreviation of manuscripts, so it's almost useless.
• Amolusta---I found this spelling on a number of sites, including [3].
• Amulusta---This spelling is on a number of sites including [4].
• Aniarsexe---This spelling I've been familiar with for awhile, but the only link I can find now is [5].
• Aniassexie---This spelling I took from [6].
• Aprus---I took it from [7].
• Arpopria---I took from [8].
• Asa---You can find it on [9].
• Azila---You can find it on [10] and [11]. The two sources back each other up (the first says it is equivalent to "Hound's Tongue", the second says it is equivalent to "Limba-câinelui", which is surely the same plant).
• Bles---You can find it on the Online German translation of the Materia Medica by Dr. J. Berendes, 1902 (which I'll refer to as BMM, Berendes Materia Medica), in Book II, Chapter 143, under Amaranthus blitum [12], and on [13] and other sites.
• Blis---You can find it on [14] and [15] and others, where it is given as a variant spelling of Bles (see above), applied to the same plant.
• Budalla---I took from [16], where it is given as the equivalent of Anchusa italica (Buglossum).
• Budama---Was taken from [17], where it is given as the equivalent to "Limba-boului".
• Budathala---Taken from [18], where it is given as the equivalent to "Limba-boului".
• Dakina---You'll find it on [19], under Beta vulgaris.
• Dielleina---From [20], where it is given as the equivalent of Mǎselariţǎ (Hyoscyamus niger=Henbane).
• Dielina---From the same source as Dielleina, given as a variant spelling.
• Diesema---You'll find it on this site and many others [21], and I've only seen it with the meaning Mullein (Verbascum thapsus or niger).
• Diesapter---This one was taken quite a while ago from a website that I can't find anymore, a "Dacia.org" affiliated site. Google confirms it in another website however.
• Tanidila---This site [22] says Tanidila meant Catmint, while this site [23] says Tanidila in PseudoApuleis is equivalent to Latin Herba menstarum (sic?), a plant I have yet to identify.
• Teudila---I think I took it from [24], where it is said to be the equivalent of Romanian Izmǎ (not sure what species, maybe Mentha piperita) and Latin Mentastrum. It's curious that Theutila and Teudila are "germanique féminin" anthroponyms, according to a French website.

Alexander 007 11:21, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I'll continue this later. All the forms on the list now are correct forms, though a few of the correspondances to a given plant may need to be double-checked, which I'll do, as well as fill out the list and note variants and different meanings. Alexander 007 15:49, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

The online Materia Medica that I'm using is the German translation by Dr. J. Berendes, Stuttgart, 1902. His translation does not seem to take into account the many variant manuscripts, but seems to be a particular and limited recension. For my own further reference, I will eventually note (in the list above) in which Books (there are five in total) and Chapters the Dacian words can be found in his online translation. Alexander 007 11:23, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Plants of the hills

It's interesting that the plants in this list are characteristic especially to the hilly areas around the Carpathians and not to the plains or the high mountains. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 18:20, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Romanian names of the plants

It's interesting that while few plants have Latin etymology in Romanian, there are relatively many of them in this list: sambucum (soc), plantago (patlagină), urtica (urzică), hedera (iederă).

Most (probably as much as 80%) of the plants in Romanian have their names some internal derivations: "Laptele cucului", "Mierea ursului", "Coada şoricelului", "Scaiul dracului" etc. The rest is 5% Slavic, 5% Latin and 10% unknown origin. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 18:42, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Diodela

I need help ascertaining what plant or plants Diodela corresponds to. This site [25] says Duodela corresponds to Romanian Maghiran (Marjoram, Origanum majorana) and Latin Solis oculis (Medieval Latin for some type of Daisy?) in Dioscorides, while Diodela corresponds to Latin Herba millefolium (Yarrow?) in Pseudoapuleis (are Duodela and Diodela different plant names for different plants rather than variants?). Alexander 007 05:31, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Another site says duodela, diodela, and ziodela corresponds to Chamomile (though this site notes that Amulusta also corresponds to Chamomile). Alexander 007 05:31, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Vaczy Coloman, "Nomenclatura dacica a plantelor la Dioscorides si Pseudo-Apuleius" in "Acta Museii Napocensis", Cluj, 1968 p.112-124 is quoted in Valer Butura "Enciclopedie de etnobotanica romaneasca", Editura stiintifica si enciclopedica, Bucuresti, 1979 p.14 for Matricharia chamomilla L. as duodela in Dioscorides and diodela in Pseudo-Apuleius. Gabrieli (talk) 12:41, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Cercer

What plant is Cebarea din fenicia (Cebarea of Phoenicia)? Is it the Cebare which the DEX says is Sanguisorba minor (probably not, though they're both associated with the color red)? My link says that what Romanians call Cebarea din fenicia and the Romans called Macia (which Perseus says means Anagallis), the Dacians called Cercer (Kerker). So, is Cebarea din fenicia an Anagallis species? Alexander 007 08:06, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

I googled and found the name here: [26] and it says that it's "Poterium" species of the Rosaceae (Poterium sanguisorba and Poterium polygamum). According to Rosoideae article, both Poterium and Sanguisorba genera are part of the Sanguisorbinae subtribus. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 08:22, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Probably is Poterium. I'm guessing it has red flowers, which is why it's called "of Phoenicia" or "from Phoenicia". Alexander 007 08:31, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

here's a pic http://www.hanosan.de/B0107200409481175_2.jpg bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 08:38, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Alright, looks good. Alexander 007 08:43, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

This Kerker name has the same etymology as Kerkeraphron (Anagallis), and I'm guessing Kerk- or Kerker- meant 'red' (or possibly even 'blood', but I go with 'red') in Dacian (as I wrote in my Lexicon). Alexander 007 08:12, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Hmm... There's a Russian word "КРАСНЫЙ" (Krasnyj) that means "red". bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 14:55, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

That crossed my mind. If kerker actually meant 'red' in Dacian as I think it does, then that Russian word might be a cognate. I don't remember what root that Russian word is from however. Bosnian crven ('red') and Czech and Slovak červený ('red') also look close. Or, maybe the word krv ('blood'), found in Bosnian, Czech, Slovak, etc. I'll check it out. Alexander 007 17:37, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Forget about those Slavic words for a second and look in Pokorny under PIE *kei-, relating to dark colors. There are numerous cognates to this hypothetical Dacian ker-, meaning "red". There is, for example, Proto-Celtic *koiro- (<PIE *kei-), "dark brown". There is also ancient Greek kirros, "orange yellow". The Slavic cognates begin with an s, unfortunately, while the Dacian with a k. Alexander 007 00:21, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Number of plants

I. Russu claims that there were 57 plant names, but currently, we only have 52. We still need to find the other 5. :-) bogdan | ^Talk 19:12, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Yup. I'm surprised we found 52 (51 rather, since Duodela and Diodela may be considered as one, and eventually we may have to list it as one, unless that is too impractical) of them with the limited resources available on the net (I gathered every single one off some internet site or another). If Russu's right, we should have only 5 or 6 more to find. Alexandru 007 00:57, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Update, New edits

I added 9 more:Aurumetti, Calox Cardiatos, Coicodila (and its variant), Curioneccum (and its variants), Dicotella, Dracontos, Nemenepsa, Phithophthethela, Usazila (this last one is probably actually a variant of Azila). I'll link the source later. The good thing about this source is that it quotes the primary source and the passage, but not the exact manuscript (and I will quote them as well in a moment). Alexander 007 17:02, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

According to my sources, four of these plants may refer to the White Bryony, Bryonia alba. Alexander 007 14:23, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

My source, while specific in citing primary sources, gave only three scientific names. For Aurumetti (a new addition) it simply said "Crow's Foot". There are several plants which may be referred to as "Crow's Foot" or "Crow's Feet" or "Crows' Feet". I suspect that from these, the reference is to the Wild Geranium, which (probably) grew in the area. I speculate that the Latin name of the Wild Geranium is Geranium sylvaticum. While that species exists, my identification is provisional, hence the question mark [?] in the article. Alexander 007 15:09, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I counted 61 on a quick count [note to the Reader: I since added at least one more, Mendruta]. Substracting two which may be variants (Azila, Usazila=1; Diodela and its variants + Duodela and its variants=1) that makes 59. Two more than Russu. Either he was mistaken or more are considered true variants. And maybe Asa (Bessian) is not included in his count. Alexander 007 17:09, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Help needed: my source says that koikolida meant "Sleepy Nightshade" (no scientific name given). What species is this? Solanum nigrum? a species of Atropa? or something else? Of course, it is a species in the family Solanaceae. Alexander 007 18:06, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

In Romania, also can be found Solanum dulcamara and Solanum luteum, but Solanum nigrum is by far the most commonly seen plant in that family. Anyway, it's interesting that none of the plants of this list are really obscure or endemic just to a small area. bogdan 18:56, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I do not know details about the distribution of various flora in Romania (or neighboring countries). If you have links... Alexander 007 19:03, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Flora Europaea is a very complete source. Enter a genus and it will list all species, subspecies and synonyms and in what country (Rm is the country code for Romania). However, the only information it gives is whether the species is present in the country or not. bogdan 19:58, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Using notes

Alexander, don't you think that it would be much easier to use this style of notes? The notes in the right side clutter the screen. bogdan 20:25, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

• My cat likes catnip.
• My other cat also likes catnip.

Notes

I'm not sure. Listing them horizontally allows immediate reference without scrolling down, and as yet (in my browser), I don't have to scroll horizontally to read the notes. Alexander 007 20:28, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Wiktionary cat links

I created a Wiktionary category for Romanian plant names (see Wiktionary:Category:ro:Plants) and will create one for Albanian plant names, and I'll link them under ===See also== in this article, for cross-reference. On the other hand, I may agree to relocate the notes if the space is used for the Romanian and Albanian equivalents. Alexander 007 21:20, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I think that Romanian and Albanian equivalents may be useful. The plant names are often calqued, for example, Forget-me-not has the same name in more than 35 European languages, from Irish to Tatar. bogdan 21:35, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

However, sometimes, plants have many names, for example:

STELÍŢĂ s. (BOT.; Aster amellus) (reg.) gălăţence (pl.), ruşcă, scânteiuţe (pl.), stelişoară, vărsă-toare, flori-cojocăreşti (pl.), flori-de-Ierusalim (pl.), iarba-vântului, ochiul-boului, rujă-de-toamnă, rujă-vânătă.

bogdan 21:37, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I know that, but things often slip the mind when editing in a hurry. Then perhaps linking the categories is better, which was my first choice. Alexander 007 21:46, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

By the way, once I fill it up some more, I'm going to gather the Romanian phytonyms which are or may be of substrate origin into one sub-cat of Wiktionary:Category:ro:Plants, and probably the Latin (inherited Latin) ones in another. Alexander 007 05:06, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

c. vs k.

Coicolida, Koikolida

Cotiata, Kotiata

...etc.

Apparently, this is just a transliteration issue from Greek. There is just one variant in the original text and it was transliterated in two ways. Wouldn't it be better to use just one version? bogdan 21:53, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but some forms may only be attested in a Latin manuscript for all I know. I noted that this arrangement was "for now", and what I intended there was "until we review the primary sources and their variants". If all the variants for a given Dacian plant name are from Greek primary manuscripts, then K will be used; but for example, if cercer is only attested in a Latin translation, I'd prefer to list the name and its variants under C, which comes first. And when we have the original manuscript forms for review, I'd prefer Greek script for those that are attested in Greek script, with transliteration next to it. Alexander 007 21:59, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Books on Dacian plants names

I found that there were two works published on the Dacian plant names:

I sinonimi "daci" delle piante descritte da Dioscoride possono servire alla ricostruzione della lingua daca? / Valeriu L. Bologa, Roma : Casa Editrice Leonardo Da Vinci, 1930

Fitonimele atribuite dacilor în lucrarile lui Dioscorides şi Pseudo-Apuleius / Natalia Trandafirescu, Bucuresti : Universitatea din Bucureşti, Facultatea de Filologie, 1994

bogdan 22:19, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

They are also studied in Dimitir Detschew's Die thrakischen Sprachreste (pgs. 541--565), Vienna, 1957. These will be added in ==Further reading==, and if used as references, in ==References==. Aside from works specifically devoted to them or having chapters on them, Thracologists like Georgiev, Duridanov and Olteanu have written about them here & there, about their possible etymologies, etc. Alexander 007 22:23, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

And thanks for reminding me (indirectly) about the term Phytonym! I will be milking it now :) Alexander 007 22:31, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Here is my source for most of the new info, by the way, if you want to take a look and maybe add notes (though I plan on adding more notes later):[http://perso.wanadoo.fr/dalby/extra/DacianPlants.html . This will be added as a reference probably. It also names a review of Detschew's work. Alexander 007 22:58, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Also interesting for comparison---and this may be discussed in text below the table of phytonyms---: as I was collecting Dacian, Bessian, and Moesian plant names, I also tried to collect Gaulish plant names, as well as others, my idea being: how much of the Gaulish language can one gather just from these phytonyms? Is the picture that is painted deceiving, when compared to what we know of Gaulish? Gaulish is an attested (though not richly attested) language, whereas Dacian is unattested aside from some rather marginal lexical items drawn from the Dacian onomastics. Those who know a bit about Indo-European phytonymy know that an Indo-European language's stock of phytonyms (even modern IE languages) often contain many pre-IE phytonyms, because the pre-IE populations were more familiar with the local flora. Going through Demiraj's Albanian Inherited Lexicon, I saw how perhaps most Albanian inherited phytonyms are probably pre-IE (Demiraj notes those that are probably pre-IE, and there are a lot). In Romanian as well, many phytonyms are of unknown origin and unknown etymology. Alexander 007 00:09, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Also, there are some phytonyms that are probably cognate to some Latin words, but do not fit at all any phonetic change scenario. For example, jneapăn and ienupăr (two different words for the same plant) are akin to Latin "juniperus", but the phonetic laws say it should be "junepăr". bogdan 17:06, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I also wonder why Dioscorides, for example, regularly gave (besides of course native Greek) Roman, Egyptian, Syrian, Dacian, and Gaulish names, but aside from a few Bessian or Moesian names, I think Thracian phytonyms are absent, as are Illyrian (except for perhaps some Dardanian ones I may remember) and Paionian (and Macedonian, though that's not a surprise, as by Dioscorides' time the language was nearly extinct if not extinct, and maybe Macedonian plant names would not have been of much interest to him or his audience). I'm wondering why Thracian is pretty much missing, yet Dacian well-represented. I have some ideas though. Alexander 007 01:04, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

W. Tomaschek seems to be one of the earliest (1893-1894) linguists to study the Dacian plant names. I don't have his work (Die alter Thraker, "The ancient Thracians", Vienna, 1893-1894), but read quotes of it. He connected Dacian skiare with Albanian shqer, "to cut" (that looks very likely to be correct, but the form is common in IE; cf. Old German sceran, Old Irish scara(im), "I divide" <PIE *sker-, "to cut"); Georgiev, accepting Tomaschek's Albanian connection, in the mid-20th reconstructed a Dacian *skera. It will be very interesting to see how many these elements have likely Albanian correspondances which are close; so far there is Skiare (Alb. shqer), Manteia (Alb. man, "mulberry"; this also goes back to Tomaschek and still accepted), and I think some others. Alexander 007 19:39, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Another of Tomaschek's works on Dacian is Les restes de la langue dace, Muséon, Louvain, 1893). Alexander 007 19:57, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

See the 'Diodela' discussion topic above for another two books, in Romanian, regarding Dacian plant names. Gabrieli (talk) 12:51, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Latin box

I am no expert but I would say it's obvious that in the Latin box they are mixed true Latin names of plants (as historic language which had its own vocabulary) on the one side, and, on the other side, there are also binomial taxons (you know, the Linneus stuff) which doesn't have anything to do with the expected Latin name for a plant, but was invented roughly in the 18th century. Mountolive | Talk 07:22, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Consider the source

These plant names were written down in a work on medical uses for plants. Their names in some cases derive from, or possibly influenced the medical terminology of, the condition they treated, so they are relevent. Galen (if you are worried that this is Original Research) commented on this. Galen. 66.57.190.166 (talk) 21:19, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello, I am worried about Original research. Can you cite the section of Galen, or better yet a link? A from L.A. (talk) 20:50, 8 February 2009 (UTC)