Talk:Lake of Gruyère/Archive 1
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Archive 1 |
Name etc.
- The following discussion is an archived debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Name etc. (These changes)
Please provide references for your changes. -- User:Docu
- You're on the talk page of this article, not on mine - though I assume you're addressing me. There is no discussion required to know that an article mustnot repeat statistical data. All these are in the infobox, which has no reason to exist if one has a series of sentences merely giving exactly the same data without any additional information. My removing duplicate data, does not need references. References are supposed to support text being added. The rewritten parts do not contain any new information, hence your request for references makes little sense.
- The renaming of the article is required because a few google searches on "Lac of la Gruyère", Lake of La Gruyère", and "Lake of Gruyère" (also without accent), excluding the French-biased Swiss .ch domain and wikipedia copies, show the 'Lake of Gruyère' to occur about as many times as the originally French name 'Lac de la Gruyère'. Inspecting pages to eliminate those with other remaining French names and phrases that clearly have an English instead of a French name, makes 'Lake of Gruyère' the prevailing name. Wikipedia guidelines then do not offer a choice.
- Furthermore, [nearly?] all article names about lakes, carry the name "Lake" and definitely not the French "Lac". That makes it clear that for less widely known names, like the 'Lac of la Gruyère'/'Lake of Gruyère', the relatively significant number of French names in English texts does not mean it to be the "most common usage in English" or even nearly equally often used in English, but rather that the original name is often simply maintainded during an "English" translation or copied into an English text. The fact that the truly English name occurs just as often, and follows the usage for all lake names most commonly used by speakers of English, takes away whatever doubt that might have remained.
- You're not being of much help by bluntly and blindly reverting text --also without discussion-- while not even taking the trouble to maintain corrections that are undisputable (e.g. how to numerals are presented, or improving poor (English) style).
- Though some of the characteristics of your edits let me assume you might be a relative 'newbee', be it not entirely unexperienced, other actions and aspects indicate a rather profound knowledge and experience. It puzzles me a bit. Anyway, you should sign your edits on talk pages with four tildes ~~~~ so as to provide a link to your (talk) page and a proper date/time stamp.
- — SomeHuman 1 Apr2007 21:16 (UTC)
- Just for me to understand, which sources are you using as a reference for the name "Lake of Gruyère"? How are you counting using google?
- Unless you provide us with a policy, I'd take it as your personal opinion that information in the infobox can't be included in the article's text. People sometimes use just the infobox or only the text.
- BTW which corrections did you make on "how numerals are presented", I think we agreed that adding a "+" is a change that shouldn't be done? Is there a reason why you add "/" into "
"? I can't see much use of such a contribution. -- User:Docu
- Your text is entirely unintelligible, till looking at its source: "<br>" cannot be seen on a talk page any better than elsewhere. Yes, there is a reason to end it with a slash: Wiki does not handle unclosed tags under all conditions, hence all unpaired html and wikipedia tags such as (mainly) <br> and <references> should be <br/> and <references/>. Signing your comments including the date/time stamp, is another obligation by Wikipedia standards. And adding the "+" as in "1 E+... m", "1 E+... m²" or "1 E+... m³" is for too many reasons to explain here and now, most recommended (by me) in every new or copy/edited article. We agree that it is not necessary to add it in each existing article. But it is best to add it in articles that actually show this indication as well as in infoboxes because the latter are likely to become used as sample for future articles (as there never is an advantage of going by a redirect for one of these indicators). Also less common indicators (e.g. with a normal 2 or 3 behind m instead of a ² or ³, or with small e instead of E, or without blank between 1 and E/e) that do not exist as redirect for all the similar indicators, should best become changed. Because most articles with such indication are like that, while doing a (manual) replace it is most of the time only clear that it does not need to be done when the modifications are already done, they may as well be saved then. Note that tjhere is absolutely no reason to maintain the indication without "+", if an article is edited or cleaned-up, one may just as well (or rather, better) add the "+". — SomeHuman 2 Apr2007 05:58 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
- That was not a debated name change - as no name change proposal was ever properly placed and debated. Docu - if you think that the name is supposed to be French, you need to input a proper proposal for the change on the proposed name change page, along with a template for this page, and then allow the debate to occur - provided that you have proper references as to why your proposal would be valid.
- You should be aware of the following:
- THIS OFFICIAL WEBSITE is from Gruyère, translated to English, and uses "Lake of Gruyère"
- this page uses "lake"
- THIS Swiss tourism site uses "lake"
- this is another swiss website translated to English as "lake"
- this is yet another swiss website translated to "lake"
- this is yet another swiss website translated to "lake"
- a quick search of Google Scholar shows 373 hits for "lake" (looking for "lac de la" in scholar brings up many french sites - not english)
- this is compelling evidence that the name is "Lake" when properly translated into English. Rarelibra (talk) 16:33, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that the change from Lac de la Gruyère to Lake of Gruyère was not debated, this is why it was reversed. I appreciate that you are providing references for the suggested page title. -- User:Docu
- This may be important, as one of the links is for another unrelated lake and one of the sources uses the word "lake", but doesn't in fact name the lake "Lake of Gruyère".
- I'm sure you can find a few links on flickr to provide links similar to interfacelift above, but these aren't suitable references either. As for google scholar, I think "quick search" accurately describes how you used it, but doesn't provide additional help.
- The coordinates on the article (46°39′N 7°06′E / 46.650°N 7.100°E) provide links to various maps. I went through the various Global Maps provided for the location and they consistently use "Lac de la Gruyère". If you look up the lake in the "Getty Thesaurus of Geographic Names", you will find "Lac de la Gruyère". -- User:Docu
Docu - you cannot use global maps as a reference (like Google or MapPoint) because they tend to keep the names in native tongues. This is English wikipedia - as you see the article for Lake Michigan changed into "Lac Michigan" in French wiki or "Michigansee" in German wiki, the same occurs when bringing an article over into English wiki. The name is "Lake" in English, and the usage is proven above. Rarelibra (talk) 14:43, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
- I think the Lake Michigan argument misses the point, "Lac de la Gruyère" being named de:Lac de la Gruyère in the German language wikipedia.
- The Google Scholar result you provided just shows that Google Scholar wasn't used correctly.
- BTW, if you like to rename the article, it might be clearer if you state that "The name is 'Lake of Gruyère' in English", rather than "The name is 'Lake' in English", because the lake article has never been named 'Lac'. -- User:Docu
The regional tourist office ("Gruyère Tourist Board")] generally uses "Lac de la Gruyère" as well. -- User:Docu
Name convention
The name is not "Lac" - it is "Lake" in English. No matter what, the name is translated into English usage for English wiki. Rarelibra (talk) 17:01, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
- Rarelibra, lake is the name for an article about lakes (in French that would be "lac", e.g. fr:Lac). "Lac de la Gruyère" is the name of the lake, it is called that way even in other languages. Those all have words for "lake", but do use the place name. -- User:Docu
User Docu, no matter what you attempt, this is ENGLISH wikipedia. We do not use foreign names like "Lac" if an acceptable and proper name exists in translation (such as Lake). If you continue this madness, we can verify with ANI. Rarelibra (talk) 18:35, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- I hope that you understood what administrators mean with "it appears you've been doing cut and paste moves, which violates the GFDL". -- User:Docu
- I hope you understand this isn't a proposal. The name in English is Lake, not Lac. Rarelibra (talk) 16:14, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
By the way, I thought we had a guideline for this somewhere, but I can't find it at the moment. The closest I can find is one example quoted at WP:NCON, about an analogous issue with the name of a mountain range. Rarelibra is right, generic name constituents like "mount", "lake" etc. usually get translated into English.
Rarelibra, as a suitably severe punishment for cut-and-paste moving pages, you are hereby sentenced to one hour penal servitude: you will have to assist me in a map design job. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:34, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
- Applicable guideline is, I think, WP:UE. Neıl ☎ 14:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)