Talk:Kyi, Shchek and Khoryv

fascinating but too novell stuff moved to talk

Dear contributor. The text below is vey interesting and I appreciate your effort writing it but in current form we cannot have it yet. The reason is that you presented it as an unquestionable set of arguments, while this is not a mainstream interpretation at all. So, we should either present this sourced to some repctable scholar and say, that "according to..., while the majority thinks ...", or we can't have this in the article at all. Please quote your sources here and we can decide what to do with the material below. --Irpen 02:10, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

The historical reality behind the mythical character "Kyi" is that his name is a Turkic word denoting "river-bank", originally applied to the higher western bank of the Dnieper River at the location of the settlement that became the city of Kyiv.

The etymological derivation of "Kyiv" indicates that the area was originally inhabited by Turkic-speaking peoples, who gave the settlement on the high western bank of the Dnieper River its name. The legend of the foundation of Kyiv by three brothers Kyi, Schek and Khoriv was developed to explain the place-name, once Slavic settlers had replaced the Turkic inhabitants and the real meaning of the name had been forgotten.

The name of the third brother, Khoriv, is simply the Russian rendition of the Hebrew Chorev, the other name for Mount Sinai. Its incorporation into the legend may reflect the presence of Jews or Khazar converts to Judaism at an early period in the history of Kyiv.

The name "Lybed", meaning "Swan", given to the sister of the three brothers, reflects the presence of the Magyar tribes along the Dnieper River prior to their migration to modern Hungary in the 9th century. According to Magyar myths of origin, their country of sojourn before they moved to the Pannonian plain was called "Lebedia", or "Swanland", named after their chief, Lebed. However, Lebed is definitely a Slavic word, not Magyar, and the name must have been borrowed by the Hungarians from Slavs at some point in their migrations.

Wondreing how words Kij(ev) and Lybed can be brought first to Turk and second to Magyar or Hungarian origin. Kij is just usual Slavic weapon called buzdovan by Turks.Today we know kij as a tool from baseball. Lybed comes from lebdeti, lebed lebdi on water. Where is here Turk, Magyar, Hungarian origin? Also cf. http://cs.wiki.x.io/wiki/Kyje; http://cs.wiki.x.io/wiki/Kyje_(okres_Ji%C4%8D%C3%ADn) Ask 59 (talk) 19:57, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

What are you talking about?! KIY is pure Slavic word and means "SCEPTER" (Royal hand, royal staff). The Lybed, Labod means "Swan"; which represents a goddess Danica or Zorica (Saraswati; Zorasveta) or Lada goddess. Addition EV to KIY represents a genitiv in Slavic and means "Scepter's"; like BrezhniEV for example... Surnames among men were/are generally spoken with "EV" and among women as "OVA". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.182.87.80 (talk) 15:44, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Exactly Kij/kiy is a stick or staff sometimes swing it has nothing to do with Turkic. -- 06:48, 21 November 2014‎ 210.50.61.104

names

It seems that there are about 3 major theories about each name–Gnomz⁰⁰⁷(?) 07:22, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Currenly, the article is full of blatant speculations. Actually, everything is known about these mythical persons are their name, and this is ideal ground for all kinds of unsubstantiated claims to develop. Of zillions conflicting interpretations that proliferate, they chose those that postulate that Kiev was founded by Jews, i.e. Khazar Jews. This is obviously POV, because we all know when the Khazars took Judaism. --Ghirla | talk 01:17, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Maybe scrap most of it, AU wiki explains the legends by the name of the local mountains.–Gnomz⁰⁰⁷(?) 01:48, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I believe we should take it with a grain of salt, that's all. Assuming that Kiev has a Jewish etymology or proclaiming that Khoriv "is of biblical origin" is too much for an encyclopedia that aspires to be as unbiased as possible. --Ghirla | talk 08:05, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Khoriv in Russian and Ukrainian

While you have a correct spelling of Khoriv in Russian, "Хорив", in Ukrainian the correct speeling should be "Хорiв" Goliath74 03:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually it's the Latin spelling that was wrong, it's Khoryv.

Actually it is definitely "Хорiв" in Ukrainian, not "Хорив", as it states in the article. Goliath74 20:11, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

What do You base this claim on? Almost everywhere I saw it it was Хорив, on the net You'll see it for example on the official site of the city council [1], and major newspapers ([2], [3], [4]) --Teche richka Tysa 11:23, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Lybid

Lybid redirects here, however it should be an article about the Lybid river.

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"Goddess Zorya (Danica) was identified with white swan, white bird.[citation needed]"

Lybid may mean "swan" but it can't be identified with the goddess Zorya. When you click on Zorya the Wiki article that you get directed to states that Zorya is the goddess of a star. This statement about the swan needs to be removed since it seems incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.252.183.253 (talk) 22:24, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

vandalism

the name Khoriv does apear sometimes, i guess mostly incompetent and undereducated civil servents left over from soviet era (though it can even be found no the net like [5]), however the proper spelling is Khoryv used for example among others by the official site of the city council [6]. regardless of the correct name the edits made by me and the other person included more fixes and deleting them wholesale is clear proof of malicious intentions. --Teche richka Tysa 21:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

References

This title in the references section: "Киев, анциент анд модерн киты" is obviously a Russian transliteration of "Kiev, ancient and modern city". I don't why it is written this way, but I think you should consider having this title in English at least side by side with the Russian version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Syrotkin (talk • contribs) 14:00, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

It's certainly a little odd (and киты is a completely wrong transcription of English), but I don't feel qualified to edit it... AnonMoos (talk) 15:21, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Kiev founded by hungarians ; Kyiv - etimologies found in Djagfar Tarihi

Djagfar Tarihi Bulgar annales gives two possible solutions to the etimology of the name Kyiv. First one is the following: "Here he was hospitably met by the people and with hostility by Chirmysh, the leader of the Bashkorts, who considered the Swan (Türk. Kyi - Translator’s Note) to be his ancestor, and wanted Bashkorts to worship Swan." Notice that Kyi has a meaning 'swan' in turk language. Bashkort and hungarians are closely related. Also notice that according to the legend of Kiev, the three founders (possibliy also hungarian-turkic origin: Keve (or Keow), Csák and Geréb) had a sister: 'Libid', the name (according to wikipedia page Kyiv) also means 'swan'.

Too much swans around the name of Kiev to consider this a coincidence. Notice that in hungarian history there is an ancient hungarian homeland, called Lebedia - scholars explain that, there should be a duke named Lebed, or Lebedi, and his land was called Lebedia after him(but nobody is sure, where it should have been exactly). But the resemblance between sister Lebid and the person in hungarian annals Lebedi is quite interesting.

The second explanation of the nem 'Kyiv' from Djagfar Tarihi:

"Soon, the boundaries of the new state expanded: they embraced the northern Black Sea region with the Middle Dnieper, and North Caucasus, inhabited by Bulgars, Alans, and the Anchians (Ants), the ancestors of the modern Ukrainians. Within Idel remained the Suvar beylik, which included territory of the Itil area, Southern Urals and Western Siberia. Altyn Oba ca 600 AD Great Bulgaria In 558, the Bulgar beylik suffered a disaster. The Bulgars were unable to withstand the onslaught of the nomadic Avars, who were expelled from the Asia by the Turkuts (Ashina Türks). The Avars with Ugrians fought their way across Bulgaria, obliging her to pay tribute and, creating the Avar Kaganate, settled in the Middle Danube (territory of the modern Hungary). The Türkic Kaganate was going through a struggle for power by various factions. The Oguzes seized the power, and a considerable part of the Türkic Kaganate Bulgars, led by a biy (Prince) Askal (Askil) in 563 left from Turkestan to the Great Bulgaria (Bulgar beylik). The prince of the Bulgar beylik Tamya-Tarhan adopted his tribesmen and settled them in the HonBalyn province (area of modern Kyiv), after which that settlement was renamed Askal. Askal married a daughter of Tamya-Tarhan, their son Alvar inherited power in the Bulgar beylik (Great Bulgaria, as the Greeks called it later). Alvar entered into an alliance with Byzantine Empire, which was also supported by his successors. After a death of Alvar from the hands of his brother, who was in Avar service, his younger brother Bu-Ürgan (Organa) ascended the throne. In 619, to strengthen his alliance with Byzantium, BuÜrgan with part of the Bulgars adopted Orthodox Christianity in the Greek city of Chersonese (Korsun), which Bulgars called Kryashen. Bulgars were Tengrians, and Bu Ürgan's baptism caused their discontent, which ended with him being forced to cede power in the Great Bulgaria to his nephew Kubrat (Kurbat), a son of Alvar. In 620 Kubrat instructed his younger brother Shambat to construct in Askal a fortress, which was named Bashtu (later Kyiv). In Bashtu lived Bulgars, Anchians (Slavs), Greeks and others, as reflected in the later Arabo-Persian historical and geographical compositions. Shambat went on a successful campaign against Avars, annexed to his possessions a vast territory that belonged to the Avars, and announced a creation of his own state called Duloba (oba = habitat, habitat of the clan Dulo), which Slavs called Duleba. Kubrat demanded from his brother to return to the bosom of the Great Bulgaria, but Shambat refused his demand, for which he earned a nickname Kyi, i.e. “Separated”. As a separate state, Duloba existed from 623 to 658 (In the West European historiography, it goes under a name Samo state, and is billed as a first Slavic state in history. In contrast, in Slavic histories it is completely ignored, and even the Slavic term "Duloba" passes without any explanations and with somewhat negative connotations.'

Also notice the possibility that the name Ukrajna may come from Ugria or Ugriana, because ugric people occupied the majority of the lands today called Ukraina for centuries before the X. century. 81.183.245.214 (talk) 12:16, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Ukrajina can impossible come from "Ugraina", since krajina, kraj, pokrajina are very often names throughout all Slavic countries from the Adriatic over Baltic, Black Sea to the Pacific Ocean: Primorska pokrajina, Slovenija; Kranj, Slovenija, Srbska Krajina; Pomorjansko, Germany; Primorski kraj, Russia etc. So U-krajina fits perfectly into this Slavic context, the rest, the Turko-Ugric naming is just a late consequence of the former Slavic naming. Kij is just common Slavic word for Turkish buzdovan, and Kij is the word where Kijjev comes from. Ask 59 (talk) 20:17, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

References

Occult nonsense about the Kyi etymology by the Turk quasi "historians"

The term KYI (KIJ) has nothing to do with any nationalistic Turk nonsense. Term KIJ in Slavic means "SCEPTER" (kij, žezlo). Kyi was a prince of the Ukrainian (Volhvivs - Volhvs were like Slavic "Druids" before Christianity) people. -- 10:03, 3 January 2013‎ 109.182.41.58

Etymology

"Kyi appears to be derived from a Turkic word meaning "high river-bank","

Occult nonsense. KIJ (KIY) derives from Slavic "Scepter" (royal hand) which is a Trident. (remained as a symbol of Ukraine).

Kiy was a Old believer (pre christian) prince of eastern Slavs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.165.124.206 (talk) 09:53, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Turkic trident

I guess you are not interested at all because you think Slavs were around from the time being but let me tell you about trident: it is a tamga of Turkic (ex-Hunnic) tribe Dulo and it is a bow and an axe together. In Slavic it may had an other meaning and usage and may become "royal hand" but it is only a secondary meaning of an originally Turkic sign. Most of the Ukrainians today have Turkic roots and Ukraine only got Slavicised later and (most of the) Ukrainians are originally not Slavs at all, they only bacame ones in their culture and language. Make a little search for Dulo's, the first of them was Attila's son Ernach (who was not a Slav), he used this tamga and other Dulo's from that on. Dulo's controlled Kiev from the establishment until around the 860's. I believe Ukrainian and Slavic nationalist think anyone who states different that they think is a Turkic nationalist, but anyways, I told you the truth, maybe one day you'll find out who you are. It is good that Dulo's tamga is included in the official coat of arms and flag of Ukraine, because it refers to it's real, Turkic origin. 178.48.177.1 (talk) 13:20, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

A trident is a simple symbol that can probably be found in many cultures. There's not much evidence that Turkic-speakers were west of the Aral sea before the 6th-century A.D. That the Huns spoke a Turkic language is only a guess... AnonMoos (talk) 07:30, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

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January 2023 merge proposal

The January proposal to merge Kyi to here seems very reasonable; the 3 brothers are notable for the same legendary event (foundation of Kyiv), and so are best discussed in one place; overlap. Klbrain (talk) 10:52, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

  Y Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 14:16, 16 September 2023 (UTC)