Talk:Kurdistan Workers' Party insurgency/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

PKK conflict with other tribes

The PKK has been at conflict with some Kurdish tribes other than Village Guards, notably some landowning tribes like the Süleymanlar during the PKK's early history. Given that this is conflict between Kurds and the article is about the conflict with the Turkish government, to what extent (if any) should information about this be included in the article? Should we include "other Tribes" in the belligerents list (perhaps under "Support" for Turkey)? Soapwort (talk) 13:58, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Tribes can be put under "support" section but it cant be merged with village guards, some Turks also joined village guards. Shadow4dark (talk) 14:04, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Hi Shadow4dark, I read your source and the quote you provided: "In Iraq as well as Turkey, existing tribes were mobilized, paid and armed, and also some new tribe-like entities were created by the State". What is being described here (in Turkey's case) is the village guard system. Village guards are not an organized force but instead Turkey's system of arming and (sometimes) paying locals. I agree that the village guards should remain under Turkey's forces since they are affiliated with the government. However, the source doesn't mention other tribes fighting that are separate from Turkey's guard system. It seems there are only historical examples such as the Süleymanlar (the only one I can find) prior to the founding of the village guard system in 1985. Soapwort (talk) 14:52, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

We lack sources if we not use pro turkish ones. Maybe we can put that tribes under village guards? You need do ** and put it under village guards. Shadow4dark (talk) 15:08, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

See my latest edit. I've kept it under "other forces" since in many cases these tribes worked alongside the police or military. Soapwort (talk) 16:09, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

References

Move most executions to their own article?

There exists the article List of assassinations of the Kurdish–Turkish conflict. The execution sections of both the Kurdish and the Turkish side is rather large and they could be included in the mentioned article.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 13:15, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

I've noticed there are almost not mentioned any executions in the Turkish section, much less massacres. As to me these sections could be trimmed at the Kurdish side where they are rather elaborate. If no opposition comes, I'll do this in the next day's and add the more or less sourced executions to the article mentioned above. The unsourced massacres with a cn tag since November 2020, I'll remove as well as far I don't find a source for them at the first search. There are quite some.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 00:05, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

Iran considered pkk as a terrorist group

Iran consider pkk as terrorist group , iran and surya help kurds against isis , kurds not pkk Alio00ppp7 (talk) 14:32, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 30 November 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: consensus not to move. —usernamekiran • sign the guestbook • (talk) 06:11, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

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Kurdish–Turkish conflict (1978–present) → Kurdish–Turkish conflict – The proposed title is the clear common name, moreover "Kurdish–Turkish conflict" redirects here. For other uses, see Kurdish–Turkish conflict (disambiguation). Northumber (talk) 10:45, 30 November 2021 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran • sign the guestbook • (talk) 15:48, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Support per nomination. --The Tips of Apmh 14:07, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

oppose with that name you should merge all these conflicts/revolts http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Template:Campaignbox_Kurdish_rebellions_in_Turkey İt is only more confusing. You not sure you confusing with this page [[1]]? Shadow4dark (talk) 14:16, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

yes, Kurdish–Turkish conflict can refer to any of Kurdish rebellions in Turkey. It can refer to Beytussebab rebellion or Ararat rebellion etc. But the main meaning is this Kurdish–Turkish conflict (1978–present). This is confirmed by the fact that Kurdish–Turkish conflict request redirects here. Also see searches in the google and google scholar. --Northumber (talk) 14:23, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 14:51, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

oppose in 1978 a new and ongoing conflict began. But you can create on own article out of the redirect.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 17:58, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose per Paradise Chronicle and Shadow4dark, it's a helpful breakpoint to distinguish the modern conflict, revolving around the PKK, from the earlier rebellions in the 20s/30s. Jr8825 • Talk 16:34, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
• Shadow4dark, Paradise Chronicle, Jr8825 if not move then Kurdish–Turkish conflict (disambiguation) should be moved to Kurdish–Turkish conflict. Because if "Kurdish–Turkish conflict" redirects here, it means that it is main meaning and then this should be title of the article. --Northumber (talk) 16:53, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose and instead write a broad-concept article at "Kurdish–Turkish conflict" that covers the conflicts from 1923 to present. (t · c) buidhe 07:46, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. Perhaps a BCA as suggested, but the proposed new name should not even redirect to this article as it does at present. That name covers more than just the current phase of the conflict. Andrewa (talk) 18:24, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 26 January 2021 and 10 May 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Dddefne. Peer reviewers: Patroclus99.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:55, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

definition of 'escalation' after kobani

it has true that things got escalated with kobani but it has peaked during the turkish invasion of syria and now all nearly ended. since 2020, at least for 2 years maybe more, there are not so many clashes with kurds. especially inside turkey. so can someone edit the infobox accordingly plz. i dunno maybe add "de-escalation after Operation Peace Spring" or "low-level insurgency after Operation Peace Spring" etc to the status part of the box. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.196.85.168 (talk) 14:07, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 6 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) ~Styyx^Talk? 17:46, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

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Kurdish–Turkish conflict (1978–present) → Turkey–Kurdistan Workers' Party conflict – This article is about a specific part of the general Kurdish–Turkish conflict, about the conflict between Turkey and Kurdistan Workers' Party. Heanor (talk) 15:18, 6 March 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Natg 19 (talk) 08:11, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

The infobox has more groups then PKK.Shadow4dark (talk) 07:33, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Finnish support for the Kurds

The source given in the factbox under "supporters" list a Reuters news article about a Turkish claim of Finnish support. It doesn't constitute a good source, and should be removed or given an "allegedly" / "claimed by Turkey" notice. 188.238.61.218 (talk) 22:10, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Reuters is definitely a reliable reference so "alleged by Turkey" has been added now. --Semsûrî (talk) 22:30, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Edit semi-protected

For the infobox, under "Supported by" for the Turkish side, please add Pakistan. https://www.newindianexpress.com/world/2019/oct/12/pakistan-supports-turkeys-offensive-against-kurdish-forces-in-syria-2046528.amp 2600:100C:A202:871A:4F6:FD13:9359:2A79 (talk) 12:23, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Military support has a particular meaning, and it's always contentious in infoboxes. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:05, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Turkiye/Turkey

The country of Turkey has officially been renamed Turkiye as is recognized by the UN. Would someone who is allowed to correct semi-protected articles please change this? 46.114.32.110 (talk) 13:27, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Not done: see WP:COMMONNAME and related discussions at Talk:Turkey.  // Timothy :: talk  13:34, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Silly error in source?

The following paragraph mentions 5 tourists but details 6 nationalities. I looked at the source reference and it has almost exactly the same text. Is it an error in the source reference itself, or am I misunderstanding the sentence?

In early September 1992, PKK militants kidnapped five tourists, including three Americans, two Austrians and a British, near the town of Karliova, Bingöl Province.

--o_andras (talk) 10:47, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

It's possible one person was a dual national. Though it really seems odd to count the same person twice (as an American and a British, say) in prose. I don't know, hard to tell. Heavy Water (talk • contribs) 21:06, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Title

This wiki page should bare the title "Kurdish-Turckey rebellion" part of the Kurdish-Turckey conflict as there is already a Kurdish-Turckey wikipage (obviously!) 67.68.225.132 (talk) 07:40, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

This wiki page should bare the title "Türkiye-PKK comflict". This conflict is neither a rebellion, nor a Kurdish movement. PKK attacked Kurds as much as it attacked Turks. Kurdish villages were raided and local Kurdish militia forces established against the PKK were attacked. Arphenonn (talk) 09:46, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Vandalism

This page keeps getting vandalized by the user named Jalal1229. Can a admin finally take action against him or her? SarajevMoska (talk) 23:16, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Title change

I changed the title from "Kurdish-Turkish conflict (1978-present)" to "Kurdistan Workers' Party insurgency".

• "Kurdish-Turkish conflict (1978-present)" is extremely generic, uncreative, and misunderstood.
• The insurgency is indeed led by PKK and its allied groups, not all of them are Kurdish. And not all Kurdish groups active since 1978 that oppose Turkey are allied with PKK.
• The insurgency is not limited to Turkey nor to Turkish troops themself, on many occasions Anti-PKK Kurdish forces got involved as well as Iraqi forces too.
• In the same manner as the PUK insurgency and Kurdish Hezbollah insurgency, the title should remain "Kurdistan Workers' Party insurgency"

Xaneqînî (talk) 13:00, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Casualties

I have posted around 20 referenced sources about casualties including external operations. But for some reason, the site is constantly being changed to different casualties. No the crisis group is not a valid reference. The site itself claims; "Crisis Group assumes that total PKK fatalities are higher than this public tally." The crisis group is not a valid reference. But for some reason all the sources i have sent with years of background, including terorsehitleri.com which has literally every single turkish soldier killed by terror organizations as far as 1970 including their name, picture, place of death, date of death, cause of death, the place they were buried at, the last place they were serving in, their rank, their birth date, their birth place, name of father, name of mother, their level of education, their marital status, number of their children, background and the places their names were given to (like schools etc.) Including some civillians and teachers aswell. Yet you claim crisis group which says their sources are unreliable, is a reliable source. TRAVERA1 (talk) 09:46, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for using the talk page. First of all, the conflict with the SDF/YPG already has its own page (see Turkish involvement in the Syrian civil war). And there the total Turkish losses are around 300 in total, which includes the cross border operations agaibst both, ISIS anf the YPG. The crisis group is a recognized neutral source and has been very accurate with its numbers on southeastern Turkey and northern Iraq. Their latest numbers are 1,443 Turkish losses. Even if you would add the Syrian war losses it would be around 1,700 losses in total. You on the other hand use unreliable sources and mix it up and get something above 2,000 losses since 2015... how? Look up at the Turkish losses from Operation Peace Spring and Olive branch. If you add that all up you won't even come close to 2,000 losses. Besides this, adding now the Syrian conflict to this page is unnecesary as I said earlier, it already has its own page, literally.It only makes this page more confusing and harder to read. So my idea is to remove the spillover part of Syria, as it already has its own page, and just focus on southeastern Turkey and Iraq. Perhaps add a link on the page for the YPG conflict in syria. SarajevMoska (talk) 10:24, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

and on the crisis group part, they are the only neutral source that does its research well. Of course they won't always be 100% accurate regarding the PKK losses. So what are you gonna do about that? Just use Turkish sources then? This is Wikipedia and it should remain mostly neutral. At least thats my opinion. SarajevMoska (talk) 10:27, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Its staying neutral, i havent been using state ran sources as references. But really, if you look at it, the amount of PKK militants that ive gathered up on all the other sources match up with the Anadolu Agency's last toll on PKK losses. 35k~

Same with turkish losses, tally up all the sources, you get 2000+.

I suggest u to check out the Kurdish–Turkish conflict (1978–present)#Before 2012 ceasefire and Kurdish–Turkish conflict (1978–present)#Since 2013: from ceasefire to new confrontations. Includes the casualties pre-2015, which the crisis group doesnt have any info about TRAVERA1 (talk) 13:52, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

The pre-2015 losses were not from the crisis group, they were official Turkish reported losses. But even after 2015 the Turkish reported losses and the crisis group reported losses were almost equal. Now however you come up with something above 2,000 killed since 2015 which is simply impossible. You are adding up multiple sources with each other which just becomes chaotic. You also changed the PKK losses to above 100,000... Thats simply ridiculous. In Turkish they usualy use the term neutralized for that. Even if those numbers would be 100K that would not mean that they were all killed.

I also just noticed that your since 2015 added security losses are completely wrong as well. How did Turkey lose 733 securty forces in just a few months in 2015? Even more than 2016, when most of the fighting and attacks happened? I,m gonna remove that as well cuz your sources are completely wrong and you mixed everything up.just look at thjs repiort from cnn Turk in 2017. It says that since 2015 1,212 security forces were killed. Your numbers are 100% wrong as you mix up multiple sources.https://www-cnnturk-com.org/v/s/www.cnnturk.com/amp/turkiye/iste-2005-2017-arasinda-sehit-verilenlerin-ve-gazilerin-sayisi?amp_gsa=1&amp_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=Van%20%251%24s&aoh=17009220876349&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnnturk.com%2Fturkiye%2Fiste-2005-2017-arasinda-sehit-verilenlerin-ve-gazilerin-sayisi SarajevMoska (talk) 14:26, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

indepdent sources as this https://www.crisisgroup.org/europe-central-asia/western-europemediterranean/turkey/turkey-s-pkk-conflict-death-toll put the number on 40.000 and not the older unrealistic claims used by unreliable sources. Shadow4dark (talk) 08:54, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

That page is outdated. The fiercest point of conflict happened after that article was released, see #Casualties TRAVERA1 (talk) 14:21, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Looking at the PKK casualties after the article was released (mid-2016), 30k more PKK members have been killed. The page also doesnt include any of the YPG casualties, nor any captured members. It also doesnt even have enough reliable evidence to show how many members were killed each year. but the current ones do.

They are also not the most reliable either.

"The Swedish ONG Transnational Foundation for Peace and Future Research proved in 2005 that the ICG board of directors' had close ties to Western governments (PKK support considering the USA supports them.), a lack of independent scholars, and an absence of an objective standard theoretical framework. https://web.archive.org/web/20070928061220/http://www.transnational.org/SAJT/pressinf/2005/pi219_IntCrisisGroup.html"

altho the current sources dont really seperate captured or killed so it would be better if it was 108k killed or captured. and im not too sure if the year by year #casualties section include casualties from external operations. so there might be whole 23k casualties that needs to be removed TRAVERA1 (talk) 14:33, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

still other reliable sources put the death toll on 40.000 https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/1/13/turkey-launches-airstrikes-against-kurdish-rebels-in-iraq-and-syria. And these sources are more reliable then aa see WP:RSPSS yes you are correct that the numbers will climb up if you add ypg casualties but you need replace the unreliable sources and seperate the pkk and ypg casualties as it does not match the above sources. Shadow4dark (talk) 14:52, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

i didnt just use AA, only for the most recent casualties most of which arent even government led agencies. like memurlar.net

Al jazeera havent even done a proper background research about the casualties of the entire war either they just put that at the end of the page which is just about some air strikes turkey has conducted. I can pull any page that is unrelated to the actual topic as long as it has "more than 40k have been killed since the start of the conflict." and call it a day. it doesnt specifically say 40k, nor 40k PKK members, if you combine all the casualties of the conflict it totals up to 85k. TRAVERA1 (talk) 13:55, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

look my point is other sources put the number on 40.000 if you want include ypg it need be separated as it does not match overal casualties. Also this page is primarily a pkk conflict and not Turkish- Kurdish conflict Shadow4dark (talk) 15:40, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

YPG and PKK are the same thing, PKK has been fighting alongside YPG in syria and many pictures of YPG members are seen with flags and patches of Abdullah Öcalan (founder of the PKK, and not related to the foundation of the ypg or ypg itself, yet YPG still uses him as their idol). They have the same ideologies and leaders.

Theyre both also apart of the Kurdistan Communities Union (KCK). The belligerents tab also includes PYD/YPG alongside PKK.

The whole entire page itself includes and mentions YPG many times and also includes operations conducted by Turkey against YPG.

By your saying how we should seperate YPG from PKK because "they arent the same thing", you should completely erase YPG from the page. TRAVERA1 (talk) 13:32, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree, ypg should removed here as they are one of the primary opponents here Turkish involvement in the Syrian civil war and not inside Turkey. But both their total casualties need be put here and the infobox needs a update Kurdish–Turkish conflict Shadow4dark (talk) 17:13, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Should we still include the information by https://www.memurlar.net/album/10845/iste-yillara-gore-etkisiz-hale-getirilen-pkk-li.html ? I also have shown that ICG isnt the most reliable info as countries and organizations often bribe the Crisis Group to change the statistics TRAVERA1 (talk) 14:21, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes fine, the sources says "neutralized" meaning dead, wounded and surrendered. Shadow4dark (talk) 16:24, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

The term neutralized doesn't go for wounded PKK fighters, its just killed or captured.

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/turkiye/turkish-security-forces-neutralized-44-terrorists-last-week/3131471 https://www.aa.com.tr/en/turkiye/turkish-security-forces-neutralized-45-terrorists-last-week/3106243 "Turkish authorities use the term "neutralize" to imply that the terrorists in question surrendered or were killed or captured." not wounded. Ao192 (talk) 16:34, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Turkish casualty citations

Why are there so many citations in the casualties and losses part of the sidebar? If it's controversial, 5 or 6 reliable sources should be enough, but 22 citations seems kind of overkill Noob10293 (talk) 16:48, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Most of the sources talk mention the casualties that happened over a long time period, but dont mention some of the recent years, then the sources that mention casualties happened in the recent years only talk about that one year. and to have a more exact casualties number, there are some sources that only talk about a few Turkish soldiers who were killed very recently Ao192 (talk) 05:33, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

First, combining the casualty numbers kind of sounds like WP:OR. Also, are you sure there aren’t sources that talk about the casualty numbers from 2015 to the present? Plus, even if there aren’t any sources that talk about that, it still doesn’t really justify 22 citations instead of just 5 or 6. Third, I appreciate your devotion to accuracy, but wouldn’t adding up the individual soldiers risk double counting? Noob10293 (talk) 08:45, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, we definitely cannot reference a spreadsheet adding the casualties section up, this is the definition of original research. I've restored the Crisis Group figures and their consolidated estimate from the Turkish Government. Soapwort (talk) 03:39, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Something needs to be done about the excessive citations. For starters an {{Excessive citations}} tag can be added to help the cleanup. In addition majority of excessive sources are in Turkish which are hard to impossible to verify the veracity and importance of for vast majority of English-Wiki editors. As a Turkish speaker myself reading some of the sources, many seem to have questionable notability to subject matter, for example next to casualties many of the sources are just news stories about PKK terrorist attacks that happened. Emre Özgür Yildirim (talk) 00:51, 14 September 2024‎ (UTC)