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Vietnam?

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Does anyone have any credible sources for the Use of this shotgun by Vietnam? I've been looking and all I can find are Call of Duty links. I'm going to wait a couple weeks and then remove it if there is no credible sources. 67.41.84.127 (talk) 00:33, 30 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

4 gauge?

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The article on gauge has an equation that suggests 23 mm is closer to 6 gauge (about 6.2). This also seems to better fit the visual appearance in the pictures in the source.

I realize that the only listed source specifically states that the gauge is 4, but I'm asserting that the source is wrong. I've used the equation in the gauge article to calculate gauges of which I already know the diameter, so I'm confident in its accuracy.

Yes, I'm sure this counts as "original research", which is why I'm not putting it in the article. That said, I don't care enough about this almost trivial stub to find a better source myself. However, this will be here for any others who notice that 23 mm probably isn't 4 gauge and check the talk page for insight.

--99.241.97.241 (talk) 17:26, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above person is correct in their statement that 23mm is not 4 gauge. It is in fact 6.27 gauge. I have never seen one of these guns in real life and thus can not for certain say what their bore size is. But all accounts seem to agree that the models with rifled barrels are 23mm therefore I think that those models gauge indication should be changed. If wikipedia accepts its own gauge formula than this must be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.182.161.142 (talk) 06:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Jane's and Modern Firearms, both pretty reliable in my experience (as well as the TOZ-123 site, although that may be suspect), say 4 gauge, so I don't know what to tell you; I'll ask around and see what the consensus is, until then I'll leave it as is. Cerebellum (talk) 15:42, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I think I've gotten to the bottom of it all. As you can see on the graph here, when you're dealing with low gauges, it get's pretty crazy. If that page is using the proper equation, a gauge of 4 is equivalent to approximately 26.73 mm, while a gauge of 6 is equivalent to about 23.35 mm, a difference of 3.38 mm, not a very big deal. So, while technically the KS-23 is 6.27 gauge, it's also not that far from being 4 gauge. I don't really know why everyone doesn't just say 6 gauge and have done with it, but there you have.

There may even be more to the story. Wikipedia's conversion chart lists two different bore sizes under 4 gauge: 26.72 (4 gauge according to the geocities tool) and 23.75 (5.7 gauge according to geocities) to 24.25 (5.35). Also, I found this (read the last post). I don't know what the deal is there, but unless someone else knows, I'll just keep the article how it is with a footnote after the first mention of 6.27 gauge mentioning the dispute and pointing to here. Sound good? Cerebellum (talk) 18:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Something to remember is that this gun is not actually classified as a shotgun. The Russian call it a carbine. We generally refer to it as a shotgun and try to fit the thing to a gauge but maybe we should just leave it at 23mm. I am curious as to how it became known as a 4 gauge. I bet it is because the product page for the TOZ-123 comes in English and that gun is listed as a 4 gauge. Robmcmahan (talk) 05:52, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so I e-mailed Jane's and got this back:

Dear Mr Kovaka,

1. In reply to your question regarding the 'bore' size of the KS-23 tactical shotgun, the following may be of use. The standard (historic) formula used to calculate bore size in the past does indeed give a notional '6 gauge' bore diameter.

2. However, the current European standards are based on those contained in the metric 'CIP' tables(1). The shotgun section gives a minimum barrel diameter (in mm) of 23.35 +0.70 for the 4 bore cartridge. This latter figure has been extracted from a very busy table and is provided solely to indicate a rationale for the manufacturer's selection of 23 mm as the bore size and the use of the term '4 bore' in trade literature when developing a shotgun to fire a cartridge larger than existing 12 or 10 gauge cartridges. It should be noted that while it is rarely encountered today in a sporting calibre, the '4 bore' is the largest shotgun cartridge listed in the CIP tables. It should be noted that use of a cartridge which does not meet CIP specifications would be very difficult to market. Regretably I am unable to provide copies of the CIP tables concerned for copyright reasons.

Yours sincerely

Richard D Jones Editor Jane's Infantry Weapons Yearbook

(1) - Commision Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des arms a Feu

I'll try to incorporate some of that into the article sometime soon, but it's late now and I need to get some rest. Cerebellum (talk) 06:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

TOZ-123

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Information originally added to article body by 76.182.161.142.


Information from this site ([1]), however, is suspect, and the TOZ-123 page may be a fabrication. The TOZ-123 page can not be reached from the Tulsky Oruzheiny Zavod sites civilian gun page directly, but must however be accessed by using the triangular button links from either the PC-84 page or the TOZ-84 pages. Also the table at the bottom of the page that list the guns specs is unusual, while very detailed and of a uniform style on all other gun pages on the site, the table on the TOZ-123 is of a drastically different style, lacks the same kinds of information on the other pages and has errors regarding it’s use of measurements, specifically the fact that it measures gauge in mm. This specific error is suspicious in that the KS-23 family of shotguns is usually referred to on internet forums as a “4 gauge” shotgun. This is simply not true in regards to the 23mm military versions because of the fact that 23mm is equivalent to 6.27 gauge not 4 gauge. However this gun has a smooth bore barrel not the rifled decommissioned military barrels of its cousins. Therefore whether or not the shotgun is a 23mm or a true 4 gauge is up to speculation.

========
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^unsigned

TOZ-123 is not a fabrication, have seen the gun and waterfowl loads, in Russia they happen to call it "4 caliber" Kanadskaja Kazarka (talk) 17:57, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Links to a site on narod.ru that make up most of the references in this article are dead. I didn't want to remove them without a note on the talk page first. Flowanda | Talk 15:59, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]


FIRST , SORRY FOR POSTING IN THIS AREA BUT TO CLEAR SOME INFORMATION.. IF IT NEEDS TO BE MOVED TO A CORRECT POST NO PROBLEM —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.161.14.13 (talk) 07:21, 13 April 2009 (UTC) there is more than one way to calculate the gauge of a gun.......[reply]

the russian gauge system is different from the english.. for exsample the russian 32 gauge is not 32 gauge in in the english gauge system.. and the german 16 gauge.. is not fitting into the english gauge system...

most shotguns from now are based on the english system, but it was not always this way, remember this system is based on a british weight of lead..

the 23mm is a 4 gauge in the old russian gauge system.. and 6 guage in the english system..

it is considered a shotgun not a "rifle" in russia.. these guns are used in some areas of chechnya ,, dagestan and north ossitia and other caucascian areas where there is many checkpoints that can come under attack.... there is a sporting version..

it mostly fires shot, smooth bore,. maybe some were rifled, but ive not seon this.... the barrels are 23mm but they are barrels that are not worked on , and so not rifled,, julius —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.161.14.13 (talk) 07:18, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Russian gun?

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Supposing this firearm was designed in the 1970's, it obviously can't be Russian. It must be Soviet. I'm changing the Russian flag and name in the info box and the first sentence.Martin (talk) 04:21, 2 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Image

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I have been hunting for an image to use in this article but I have been unsuccessful so far. Everything that I have found has either been extremely low quality or I'm unable to determine the copyright status and/or the owner of the image. Does anyone know where we could get an image for this wiki page? --Triesault (talk) 15:16, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply] 


   Is this good enough?

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=KS-23&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&rlz=1C1GGGE_enUS404US404&tbm=isch&tbnid=EdnA27_rBSVqzM:&imgrefurl=http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php%253Ff%253D16%2526t%253D41008%2526start%253D48&docid=RPx2x0VoJsRQlM&w=650&h=165&ei=X34vTvTuM-jL0QHTmtyjAQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=629&vpy=333&dur=2211&hovh=113&hovw=446&tx=37&ty=133&page=2&tbnh=85&tbnw=243&start=20&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:18,s:20&biw=1280&bih=685 --DrSaLvadoRz 26 July 2011 —Preceding undated comment added 03:04, 27 July 2011 (UTC).[reply]

Most powerful

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Changed "most powerful" to "largest-bore" as the article has no sources for the "power". I recall seeing sources which showed commercial and military cartridges with payloads equivalent to your standard 12-gauge 2-3/4" buckshot (Shrapnel-10 and -25, the military, a bit of a letdown) and in the case of the civilian hunting loads, about equivalent to 1-5/8 oz shot at *around* 1300-1400 fps. So it's a very big gun but it does not appear to be nearly as powerful as for example, a 4-bore elephant gun, instead around the same as a current 10-gauge or 12-gauge 3.5" load which makes sense (shoulders must be considered and the reason for the extremely large bore was presumably the various non-lethal projectile this allows) Kanadskaja Kazarka (talk) 17:13, 14 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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