Talk:Joan of Navarre (regent)

Requested move 11 April 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved to Joan of Navarre (regent). See general agreement below to move away from the present title, Joan, Heiress of Navarre, after about 3 weeks and one relist. While the date range or death year could be used, NCPDAB tells us, "The disambiguator is usually a noun indicating what the person is noted for being in his or her own right." It does seem that "regent" describes this subject's main claim to notability, perhaps a slightly higher claim than "heir (or heiress) presumptive". So "regent" will be used to qualify this subject for now. In accord with the closing instructions, since there was no consensus for the new title, "If anyone objects to the closer's choice, they may make another move request immediately, hopefully to its final resting place." Kudos to editors for your input, and Happy Publishing! (nac by page mover) Paine Ellsworth, ed.  ^put'r there  09:06, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

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Joan, Heiress of Navarre → Joan of Navarre (1382–1413) – There are other Joans who have been heiresses of Navarre and they are more famous. Generally, "heiress" is a bad descriptor because women who succeeded were once heiresses too, i.e. Joan I of Navarre. Srnec (talk) 01:09, 11 April 2019 (UTC)--Relisting. B dash (talk) 02:16, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

• If we are to be pedantic, Joan I was an heir but this one was not. This one was only heir presumptive, i.e. it ws presumed that she would inherit the throne after her father's death. In any case, your proposal is sensible, though I think there are better ways to disambiguate her from her namesakes. How about Joan of Navarre (regent) or Joan of Navarre (lieutenant-general)? It is easier to remember than the years and presumably easier to recognize. Surtsicna (talk) 06:24, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

I agree with the move and prefer the name with the years in parenthesis to place her chronologically. --Maragm (talk) 16:10, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

I don't see how the years help in placing this Joan (1382-1413) chronologically. Her aunt Joan of Navarre, Queen of England, was her contemporary (1370-1437). It is not that easy to tell by the years that this Joan is not the English queen Joan of Navarre. It will be much more difficult to confuse the aunt and the niece if the article about the latter is titled Joan of Navarre (lieutenant-general) or something like that. Surtsicna (talk) 16:22, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

@Surtsicna: No objection to Joan of Navarre (regent), but what is your source for the title "lieutenant-general"? Srnec (talk) 23:10, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Only fr:Jeanne d'Évreux (1382-1413), I'm afraid. But if that proves unverifiable, may I suggest Joan of Navarre (regent of Navarre)? It dawned on me that her aunt Joan of Navarre was regent of Brittany and of England. Surtsicna (talk) 00:42, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

What about Joan of Navarre, Countess of Foix? Srnec (talk) 04:16, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

It looks nice but it applies equally to Joan III of Navarre, who was Countess of Foix in her own right. It probably should not even redirect to this article. Surtsicna (talk) 14:58, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

I scanned the page Countess of Foix to make sure none of the Queen Joans was also Countess of Foix and what do you know... that page doesn't even list countesses in their own right. I suppose some editor thought the Salic law applied to Foix. It would be easy enough to fix, except that the list of countesses is in fact a series of tables. Srnec (talk) 22:45, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

I know, that page and similar ones are a mess for that and other reasons. I hope you'll have an idea what to do about them at some point. Surtsicna (talk) 22:16, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

My (possibly slightly extreme) suggestion to Delete them. Delete them all didn't fly back in 2011. Opera hat (talk) 12:56, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

It seems that she only served as regent/lieutenant-general on a short-term basis. How about Joan of Navarre (daughter of Charles III), as with Louis, Dauphin of France (son of Louis XV)? Opera hat (talk) 03:52, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

I'd slightly prefer Joan, daughter of Charles III of Navarre if we go this route, but I think I'd rather use dates as originally proposed or else "regent". Srnec (talk) 03:33, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

• Move to Joan of Navarre (died 1413). I don't have a problem with using dates for disambiguation myself, but WP:NCPDAB says that where there is no dominant qualifier or no practical one, to use the single date of death. I would oppose a qualifier like "regent" as to me that implies someone who rules during the minority or long-term incapacity of the monarch, not someone who stood in for a few months while the otherwise-able ruler was out of the country. Opera hat (talk) 12:43, 30 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Well, a regent is "a person appointed to govern a state because the monarch is a minor, is absent or is incapacitated". Joan was a regent of Navarre. I think dates should be the last resort and I would prefer Joan of Navarre (regent of Navarre) or Joan of Navarre (daughter of Charles III) over any date. Surtsicna (talk) 13:07, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.