Talk:HyperNormalisation

Criticism Section.

Common practice on Wikipedia is to have a Criticism Section and especially when a documentary maker has bent corners and fabricated a story. The film depicts Gaddafi in a glorified way. Without the Lybian shooting of WPC Yvonne Fletcher the America bombing of Lybia would not have been impossible. (The USA needed British bases on Cyprus for the attack. The UK did not really want to get involved as UK politicians follow public opinion, helping the Americans in this way played into their hands. They could argue they did something whilst not actually spending any UK money or involving the UK forces). Furthermore the film's lies that Syria and not Lybia was behind the Berlin bombing can not be ignored. The truth about the bombing of the disco in Berlin is explained elsewhere on Wikipedia. The film does make a good case for showing how some Syrian atrocities crimes were unfairly blamed on Lybia. But it goes too far as there is tangible evidence and proven judicial judgments against Lybia/Lybians for at least the Berling bombing and possibly even the Lockerbie terrorist bomb. These are not points of views as there is evidence that backs this up.

Seems somebody needs a lesson in how Wikipedia works. I have been accused of disruptive editing and not listing sources. I pointed at this talk page but the user chose to contact me privately asking me to provide a source. I provided a very clear source that the film lies about the Berlin disco bomb. Nameley Wiki's own article. [[1]]. The documentary claimed this was carried out by Syria. Not true. In the case of the Pan Am 103 (Lockerbie) there are some rumours and discussions that Syria, Lybia or Iran may have been to blame. [[2]]. Nothing proven and perhaps we will never know, even if Adam Curtis seems to know more than 27 years of Government and Judicial research and investigation as he states categorically that Syria was to blame for Flight 103. However in the case of the Berlin Disco there has never been a suggestion by anyone that anybody else than Lybia was behind this. This episode was quite central in the film's narrative but the narrator offered nothing in evidence than his own words. It is extremely important that the Wikipedia entry about the film mentions this.

This is the Criticism Section that has now been vandalised twice by the same user. He threatens to ban me but I have access to several thousand IP addresses so good luck with that one. If this user wishes to delete the criticism section again I request proof that just ONE American soldier died in the Berlin disco bombing. (Two died, the film said one). I also request proof that the Berlin Disco bombing was not carried out by Lybia. Otherwise the criticism section stays.

Criticism Section: In the film it is claimed that it was Syria and not Libya that carried out the 1986 Berlin discotheque bombing. But Stasi files identified Lybian agent Musbah Abdulghasem Eter who had worked at the Libyan embassy in East Berlin. Prosecutor Detlev Mehlis proved beyond reasonable doubt that Eter and two others had assembled the bomb and that the explosive was brought into West Berlin in a Libyan diplomatic bag. The film is lacking in some detail as it also claims that one America soldier was killed in Berlin when in fact a second US Army sergeant died of his injuries two months after the blast.

The film also paints a picture of Muammar Gaddafi as a victim during the 1980's claiming he was unfairly blamed for atrocities which were actually carried out by Syria. However the murder of Murder of Yvonne Fletcher in London by Lybian Embassy officials is conveniently overlooked. This murder could not be blamed on Syria as it was caught on film.

Further Notes: Now somebody has deleted the comments about the Criticism Section on the Talk page. The TALK page is for a discussion about what to or not to include on the main page. I have made my comments above. Meet them. Have a discussion and stop trolling. If you don't agree you will need to have evidence that the CIA and MI5 and countless Governments these last 30 years have not been able to find. Adam Curtis claims one soldier died in the Berlin Disco bombing, evidence is that two died. Adam Curtis blames Syria for the Berlin Disco bombing but evidence discovered in Stasi files proved that Lybians working in East Berlin were to blame and this has now been proven beyond reasonable doubt. Furthermore Curtis blames Syria for the downing of Pan Am 103 but this is just a matter of conjuncture based on whatever version you believe. The only people found guilty in a court of law were Lybians. The verdicts may or may not be correct so Curtis is not at fault for suggesting we look at other possibilities, but to go from there to "Lybians innocent of Pan Am 103, Syrians are to blame" without any proof destroyed an otherwise informative and brilliant documentary. 155.4.129.44 (talk) 16:52, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

I will refute these points one by one using quotes from the documentary.

European airport attacks

00:55:55 "the European security services who investigated the attacks were convinced that Libya was not involved at all, and that the mastermind behind the attacks was in fact Syria, that the terrorists had been directed by the Syrian intelligence agencies"

This part is followed by a clip from a 1985 interview with Antonio Badini, then Head of Italian Anti-Terrorism, who says there was no evidence to support Libyan responsibility for the attacks, and that the only evidence they had was for a Syrian connection. A spokesman for the United States then comes on saying that it was Gaddafi.

Berlin disco bombing

01:03:29 "the European intelligence agencies told the Americans that they were wrong, that it was Syria that was behind the bombing, not Libya. But the Americans had decided to attack Libya because they could not face the dangerous consequences of attacking Syria. Instead, they went for Gaddafi."

This part is followed by a clip from a 1985 interview in which Robert Oakley, then Director of the State Dept Office of Combating Terrorism, says "Libya had less downside consequences, if you will; there is less Arab support for Gaddafi; we figured there would be less Soviet support to Gaddafi … there is no question … Libya was more vulnerable than Syria or Iran".

The decision to attack Libya was taken on the basis of one death of a US soldier, which is why the narrator only mentions the soldier who died in the explosion, and not the one who died in hospital two months later because his death had no effect on the outcome.

Lockerbie bombing

01:55:46 "As part of the deal, the West said that if Gaddafi admitted that Libya had done the Lockerbie bombing, that they would lift the sanctions. But many of those who had investigated Lockerbie were still convinced that Libya hadn't done it; that really, it had been Syria. Colonel Gaddafi confessed. His son was interviewed about this confession. He said that his father was simply pretending that he had been behind the Lockerbie bombing to get the sanctions lifted".

He never states categorically that Syria was to blame for Flight 103.

The film also makes it clear that Gaddafi was not a victim but a willing participant in the whole circus.

Criticism sections are discouraged (see Template:Criticism section). Besides, you were attempting to add your own criticism of the film, not criticism that has been published in a WP:reliable source. "Wiki references" [3] back up nothing as Wikipedia is not a WP:reliable source. Firebrace (talk) 17:13, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. Whatever Adam Curtis has dug up about Berlin is only one version of here say. Do you not think it strange that Wikipedia's own entry about the Berlin Disco bomb makes not a single mention of any Syrian involvement? Surely that is enough to set alarm bells ringing. May I suggest that Adam Curtis himself is just another pawn in the game. Because of the current state of affairs a case has to made against Syria. So now Syria is the fall guy, in much the same way when some things were invented about Lybia things are now being blamed on Syria. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.4.129.44 (talk) 03:22, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

If details are missing from the bombing article then I would suggest that the problem lies there and not here.

You may be interested in looking at the following sources:

• Staff writer, "Suspect held in bombing that killed 2 GIs in disco", Chicago Tribune, January 12, 1988, p. 3. Quote: "Christina Gabriele Endrigkeit was believed to have carried out the bombing of La Belle disco for two Palestinian terrorists whom authorities have linked to Syria ... The US cited a Libyan link to the bombing as justification for air raids 10 days later … Another State Department official said a second country may have been involved as well … Kachne repeated allegations that Endrigkeit was working with two convicted Palestinian terrorists … both men have been linked to Syria … US officials had intercepted radio messages from the Libyan Embassy in East Berlin that implicated Libya … The transcripts, however, have not been released to the public or to West German investigators".

• Robert J. McCartney, "Clues hint Syrian link in '86 Berlin bombing", The Washington Post, January 11, 1988, p. 13.

• William Tuohy, "Bomb suspect held; Syria tie probed", Los Angles Times, January 12, 1988. Quote: "At the time, West Berlin police sources said they thought it was more likely that the Syrians were behind the terrorist operation, but this has never been confirmed officially by investigators there".

• Itamar Rabinovich (1988). Middle East Contemporary Survey, 1986. The Moshe Dayan Center. p. 620. Quote: "According to some reports, the Syrians were also linked to the bombing early in April of a discotheque in West Berlin where American soldiers met. Two were killed and 230 wounded in that attack".

• Albert J. Jongman (1988). Political Terrorism. Transaction Publishers. p. 554. Quote: "Libyan and Syrian involvement has been alleged".

• In 1998, Germany's ZDF broadcast a documentary with compelling evidence that the CIA and Mossad were involved in the attack. [4]

All these WP:reliable sources disprove your claim that "there has never been a suggestion by anyone that anybody else than Lybia [sic] was behind this".

Firebrace (talk) 11:34, 23 October 2016 (UTC)

The criticism section is rambling, nonsensical, relying on a couple of unknown blogs lacking notability.

77.86.117.208 (talk) 12:01, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Source of quotes

I don't doubt the veracity of the documentarian (in fact, I think the film is brilliant) but I am trying to find the source of the quote by Schultz featured in the film and this article. The closest I can come up with is this from Schultz's book, Turmoil and Triumph: Diplomacy, Power, and the Victory of the American Deal: "Our troops left in a rush amid ridicule from the French and utter disappointment and despair from the Lebanese." (p. 231) Quoted [here]) Can anybody find and cite the actual quote? Verne Equinox (talk) 02:02, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Large Edit

There was a large edit taking out the chapters, I'm not sure why, they were great as it is a very long documentary. I had to use the internet archive to look them up so I could plan a viewing session that was less than the length of the documentary, where we chose which chapters to watch. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.245.163.71 (talk) 09:19, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Sunni Muslim sponsor

Who is the Cleary Sunni Muslim sponsor of this "documentary"? which hates Shie Iran, US & Israel & thinks that Syria is the center of the Universe, & Israel the cause if all the problems in the Middle East? Also, the sponsor paid to Curtis in order to say that commit suicide is forbidden in the Quran (but not if it's made for the cause of Allah) & that the Shie Iran invented the Suicide Attacks (in fact the Sunnis used that tactic centuries before) So who is the sponsor? BBC only put this video in BBC iplayer Ronmar24 (talk) 13:55, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Curtis argues that Syria caused all the problems, but the West publicly blamed easy targets, such as the virtually friendless Iraq and Libya, because taking on Syria (ally of Iran and Russia) was too high risk. I don't know which documentary you saw, but it wasn't HyperNormalisation. Firebrace (talk) 21:28, 1 October 2018 (UTC)