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JohnDopp (talk · contribs) / Humane Society of the United States This user has contributed to the article. This user has declared a connection. (COI declared at COIN here.)

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Project Chimps

User Diligence311 added in a new subsection on Project Chimps to the "specific criticism" section of the page. I removed it because the allegations are against Project Chimps, not HSUS. After it was re-added by the user, I looked more deeply into the allegations, discovering that some, but not all, of the people who are making these allegations against Project Chimps are also saying that HSUS are complicit beyond just being the primary funder. So I edited the paragraph to more clearly establish this in the article. I'm not sure that I did a very good job, as it still reads as though more of the people making the allegations are blaming HSUS than actually are. Also, I removed/changed several phrases from Diligence311's original paragraph because I couldn't find sources for them. Removed stuff includes:

Removed "chimpanzees are held in concrete enclosures for all but 10 hours a week". No such allegation found in the letter.
Removed "severe injuries". Not found in the letter.
Switched "poor enrichment" with "inadequate enrichment" to match the letter.
Switched "infrequent access to the outdoors" with "insufficient access to the outdoors" to match the letter.

Keep in mind that I only checked the letter as the primary source; you can add these claims back in if you find an alternate reliable source. — Eric Herboso 22:51, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Eric_Herboso

I propose that we add back in the statement about "severe injuries". Here is the evidence I have assembled

Severe injuries:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1co3DlUpAsH_O77yPHR8_XEaOhp3t84Y7/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1I1F9cCld1UeuqNuxyhcoSgEU3fEeFFUu?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ngag597Kc6YBWno1CVJab9lcbA9QX5oS/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/16NG0WlJmWGYpl9phF3-GNEPbHA0fLJA9?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1X3-IhUmukprF88QvPuyHXX-JweSi7zDJ/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C0A2W5ZyPEBhNE4LVNcJsoD3xrE3vIwu/view?usp=sharing

Diligence311 (talk) 16:41, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's not the place of editors to directly assess disputed stuff. Instead, we should report what our sources are saying. In this case, the wiki article is saying that critics sent a letter to Project Chimps' board of directors alleging several things. We can only report what they criticized in the letter. Nowhere in the letter do they allege "severe injuries". Instead, the only allegations about injuries are that PC did not check to see which aspects of enrichment reduced self-injurious behavior, and that PC did not sufficiently track self-injurious behavior. The posts you put here about injuries do indeed look serious to me -- but I am not a vet. I don't know what counts as serious or not. And even if I did, it would not be my place as a wikipedia editor to decide that it was. (See WP:NOR.) Instead, we can only cite what a specific group was alleging at a specific time, as we've already done in the Project Chimps criticism section. — Eric Herboso 18:32, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

HSUS Affiliated and related Entities

All:

I would like to add Project Chimps to the "Affiliated and related entities" section of the HSUS [Wikipedia page]. My evidence for this stems from the facts below.

1. HSUS pays the salary of the Executive Director of Project Chimps (shown on their 990 Schedule O, "Supplemental Information")

2. The Executive Director of Project Chimps sent an email to all their staff that unequivocally demonstrates that Project Chimps was in the process of being “fully integrated into HSUS” as of 2017 and that Project Chimps computers are “managed under” HSUS's IT dept.

3. HSUS oversees Project Chimps financial statements per Schedule O of their 2018 Form 990, "Supplemental Information"

4. According to former employees, the email addresses of Project Chimps and HSUS are interchangeable.

5. HSUS pays Project Chimps’ bills directly

@Eric_Herboso http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/User_talk:Eric_Herboso#HSUS had expressed some concerns about my proceeding in this direction so i have attempted to respond and address those concerns here.

Please note that I was inspired to propose these edits b/c of my role as an animal rights activist. My only motivation is to advocate for the Chimps that are receiving sub par care at this sanctuary and by setting the record straight as to the relationship between Project Chimps and HSUS is a start.

Diligence311 (talk) 20:11, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am opposed to adding Project Chimps to the "Affiliated and related entities" section of the article page. This is because HSUS directly disputes that they control Project Chimps. They insist that they are only a primary funder and that PC has always had autonomy from them.

I am NOT opposed to including Project Chimps to the "Specific criticism" section, where it already is. This is because several groups, including the respected Nonhuman Rights Project, act as though Project Chimps is indeed run directly by HSUS, and HelpTheChimps even provides a page dedicated specifically to alleging that HSUS effectively runs Project Chimps. The "Specific criticism" section correctly includes these allegations in the article.

I think it would be a mistake to add Project Chimps to the "Affiliated and related entities" section because we should not put speculation or allegations outside of the "Specific criticism" section. Also, HSUS keeps a published list of its official affiliates, which PC is not on. — Eric Herboso 18:50, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Project Chimps section - Original research

The entire section (all 500+ words and 20 citations) is sourced with primary and nonindependent sources (except for one).

helpthechimps.org -- the primary allegers
projectchimps.org -- the accused
nonhumanrights.org & theirturn.net -- self-published animal rights websites
chimpcare.org -- potentially expert on chimpanzees, but not an independent source
The HSUS statement is a primary source.

The only source which is secondary and reliable is the National Geographic article which mentions HSUS exactly twice: "The Humane Society of the United States provides substantial additional support," and "In recent years, USDA oversight has been “at a record low,” according to the Humane Society," barely tying together the two organizations.

Considering that Project Chimps has its own article in Wikipedia (where better this material should reside), and that HSUS is only barely mentioned in the one remaining reliable source, I suggest that the section be mostly eliminated with perhaps the remaining information coming from the Natgeo article. What is currently here is speculation, original research, "investigative journalism", etc. -- none of which belongs in a Wikipedia article.

Grorp (talk) 00:19, 20 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's been over a week since I tagged this section and all the unreliable sources, and since no one has corrected any of the problems, nor spoken up, I've deleted this section. If someone wants to rebuild the section using reliable sources, then go ahead. Grorp (talk) 07:29, 31 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]