Talk:Haplogroup J (Y-DNA)

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Proto indo-europeans are persons of J haplotype linked via the Nostratic languages family!??

We know that:

First of all forgive your brother for my bad english and thank you for this article

-R1 haplogroup are "paleolithic"haplotypes(0)

-The originel language of persons of R1 haplogroup is linked with Basque and dont has any link with indo-european languages(1)

-Semitic and indo-european languages are linked via the nostratic(2)languages theory and are all languages of neolithic timed origin(3)

-The haplogroup J is very present among Indians,Persians,Greeks,Indians(4)

-The linguistic aryanisation of india for example is only a linguistic process,in fact we have aryanic speaking populations as much racially different as Sindhis and Danish(5)

-Carleton Coon says: Linguistically, Indo-European is probably a relatively recent phenomenon, which arose after animals had been tamed and plants cultivated. The latest researches find it to be a derivative of an initially mixed language, whose principal elements were Uralic, called element A, and some undesignated element B which was probably one of the eastern Mediterranean or Caucasic languages.5 The plants and animals on which the economy of the early Indo-European speakers was based were referred to in words derived mainly from element B. Copper and gold were known, and the words for these commodities come from Mesopotamia.(6)

The sources are below

(0) http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8432/europemaptreeta1.jpg

(1) http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v13/n12/full/5201482a.html

(2) Please note that these words are not borrowings but commun nostratic roots

Semitic/Indo-european

men/manne

hala/hola,hello

kassara/casser

ardh/earth

sahar/soir

ente/tu

me/mai

barr/bur

omm/madar

ab/badar

seb3a/septa

sitta/sesta

al/le

qata3/cut

batr/obturer

maridh/malade

haql/agro

thawr/taureau

qarn/corne

sarab/sarabas

keme/comme

silah/sird

yaafukh/fuukhir

wetr/water

lugha/lingua

qalb/lobos,cor

mawt/mort

rajol/ragazzo

lobb/lobos

bard/freddo

ward/rodos

wajh/visage

anf/nez

dawra/tour

dwaran/tourner

Greek/Arabic

Emena/Minni

Alla/Illa

Odhi/Hedhe

Arabic/English

Ma3na/Mean

Jorm/Crime

3eyn/Eye

Hu/His

Ha/Her

Dhak/That

Hedhi/This

Fatasha/Fetch

Qit/Cat

Arabic/French

Nahnu/Nous

Masha/Marche

Turab/Terre

Sama/Ciel

Jam3=>Gam

Somme=>Gam

Sound change o=>a et j=>g

Eardh=>ardh

Eye=>3ayn

Taureau=>thawr

Corne=>qarn

Ble=>Burr

Agro=>Haql

g=>q et l=>r

Agro=>Haql (g<=>q)(r<=<l)

Ble=>Burr (r<=>l)

(3) http://free.of.pl/g/grzegorj/lingwen/afil.html

The scheme on The Tower of Babel shows yet another approach to both genetic relations and dating of particular language families and protolanguages. According to its author, Proto-Indo-European was in use ca. 5000 BC, Eurasiatic ca. 9000 BC, and Proto-Afro-Asiatic ca. 10000 BC. The Nostratic language, which existed ca. 13000 BC, is said to have given birth to Eurasiatic and Afro-Asiatic.

(4) File:Haplotype middle east.jpg http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Haplogroup_J_(Y-DNA)

(5) http://www.algerie-dz.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101980&page=4

(6) http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/06-01.htm (also please take a look at the great J haplogroup concentration in the caucasian Daghestan) Humanbyrace (talk) 11:28, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Humanbyrace (talk) 10:52, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

R1a1a-M420 is Indo-European, R1b1a2-M269 is Basque. --YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII (talk) 21:27, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

E3b1 a "loyal fellow traveller?"

What is the origin of the statement, "....Indian J2 is not accompanied by its "loyal fellow-traveller" E3b1 that penetrated to the Near East from North Africa after the end of the Ice Age and is tightly bound with the spread of both J-subbranches since the neolithic era."?

It's true E3b can sometimes be found in the same region as J2. But that hardly warrants calling them "fellow travelers". Furthermore, recent studies by Cruciani suggest the largest European concentration of E3b1 (v13) (the so called alpha cluster)- which incidentally is virtually absent from areas outside of southeastern Europe - may be much older than previously believed. It could have as easily been around the Balkans before the neolithic. Most certainly it got there before the end of the LGM when that part of Europe was a refuge. It got to the near east a lot earlier than that.

So please provide a source for the interesting and misleading statement quoted above.

75.54.183.225 22:59, 16 December 2006 (UTC)grandcross[reply]

The presence of J2 in India (and mainly in Pakistan) can be explained as a result of the Neolithic expansion from the Near East to Baluchistan ca. 7000 BC. The same is valid for G. These Y-haplogroups may have spread agriculture to the Proto-Dravidians in Baluchistan and subsequently got with (Proto)Dravidians to India in the 4th millenium BC. The presence of G, J2 and E3b1a in the Balkans still wasn't fully explained; it is possible - as recently Dienekes Pontikos suggested - that J2, G and R1b1 (the Anatolian haplotype) were present both in the Asia Minor and in Greece before the Neolithic expansion. The distribution of E3b1a indicates that it got to the Balkans by sea rather than through the Asia Minor - or at least, it didn't leave any significant traces in the Asia Minor. And as Cruciani recently suggested, E3b1a may, in fact, be a result of a demographic expansion during the Bronze Age ca. 2000-2700 BC, together with J2b. However, its diversity indicates an origin in Western Asia ca. 9500 BC. This is in accordance with the presence of E3b1 in the Near East during the Neolithic, and thus the expansion of J2 and G to India very probably occured before E3b1 aarived from Africa to the Levant. Still, since the connection between E3b1a and the Neolithic expansion from the Asia Minor is now doubtful, I will change the sentence. 82.100.61.114 13:57, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"The Cohen Modal Haplotype falls in haplogroup J1, with respect to Cohens" ?

I've put a source-request tag on this, because although it does seem to be the folk-assumption, I can't seem to find reference on the net to any primary source or primary data that establishes it.

Behar (2003) [1] (page 772) found 86% of Ashkenazi Cohens and 76% of Sephardi Cohens belonging to Haplogroup J as a whole but (rather strangely?) seems not to have tested with M172 to distinguish J1 and J2, and does not report the proportion of those in Haplogroup J with the Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH).

Levy-Coffman (2005) [2] (page 4) says 48% of Ashkenazi Cohenim and 58% of Sephardi Cohenim belong to Hg J1 with the CMH, citing Skorecki et al (1997). ~~But that's surely not the right reference, because that paper [3] only tested one STR locus and only one SNP -- namely YAP, which is indicatative of the Haplogroup DE branch.~~

— The Y-STR percentages are from Thomas et al (1998). But that paper only narrowed the Haplogroup to YxDE,PR. Jheald 19:05, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On the other hand Dienekes' blog in a 2005 commentary [4] cites Malaspina et al (2001) [5] as having typed a number of Italian Cohanim, and found them to belong to the J2 haplogroup. (But I don't have access to the paper, so can't check he's translated their naming conventions correctly).

Can anyone supply a definitive reference, estimating the actual proportion of Cohanim in J1 with the CMH (presumably high), and the proportion in J2 with the CMH (presumably low) ? Jheald 18:52, 27 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have since found there was quite a long discussion on this very point on the Genealogy-DNA-L list in March 2006. [6]. It seems that researchers must have this (comparatively simple) information, but for reasons unclear it has never been made public.

The discussion cast doubt on putting too much weight on the Malaspina reference - on closer reading it seems he may only have Y-STR typed the Italian Cohanim, and never actually SNP tested them.

The view of those closest to some of the studies on Jewish surnames seems to be that the Cohens are definitely connected to J1 rather than J2. Also, apparently, FTDNA (who probably have the best data on this) now only mention the possibility of Cohanim descendency on their J and J1 results pages, not J2. But as far as I can understand, there seem as yet only to be these rather informal straws in the wind, nothing more definite. Jheald 00:47, 28 January 2007 (UTC).[reply]

More detailed information since added to the Cohen modal haplotype page. For reasons presented at more length in the talk page there, I'm now happy with this article's current statement "Jewish Kohanim with the CMH appear to be definitively associated with haplogroup J1 rather than J2". Jheald 09:49, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You need to add L147.1/J1c3 to the requirements for the Cohen Modal Haplotype, according to current research. JohnLloydScharf (talk) 05:28, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

J1 + CMH "considered the Jewish Priestly Signature"

According to the current version of the article,

"Although you can have the CMH in either J1 or J2, it is the genetic signature in J1 that is considered the Jewish priestly signature".

This phrasing seems dangerously close to inviting readers to fall into the Conditional probability fallacy (also called the Prosecutor's fallacy), namely the mistaken assumption that because the probability of a genetic marker given a particular state, P(marker|state), is very high, that this necessarily implies that the probability of the state given the marker, P(state|marker) is similarly high.

But this is not the case. Across the whole population of Haplogroup J1, the total number of people who fall into the 1 to 4% that match the CMH purely by chance will actually be much larger than the comparatively small number with actual Cohen descent.

As for example genetic surname projects have found, only if much more specific genetic tests are used, testing a much larger number of marker locations, can high kinship probabilities be established with any certainty. Jheald 10:22, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Article now deals with this more carefully, I think. Jheald 09:49, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You need to add L147.1/J1c3 to the requirements for the Cohen Modal Haplotype, according to current research. JohnLloydScharf (talk) 05:28, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

22 subhaplogroups of J2?

About this statement: "However, J2 has been found to encompass several subhaplogroups (22 subhaplogroups, including 12 that have high frequencies) that originated or expanded in different regions. . ."

1) Why are we using the term "subhaplogroups," when the term "subclades" is much more frequently used, and not as unwieldy?

2) "12 that have high frequencies"!? Which 12 would those be? I would like to see the list of which 12 J2 subclades the author of this statement believes to be of high frequencies. The number is far fewer than that, from all the data I have seen. I'll try to come back with a more accurate figure soon.

Iris-J2 05:21, 19 May 2007 (UTC) Bonnie[reply]

You're right, this does look questionable.

The apparently cited source for the statement is Semino et al (2004), who use the term "subhaplogroup". Figure 2 of that paper shows Haplogroup J dividing into 21 branches - which would give 22 subgroups, if one included J* as well. 12 of the branches are connected with solid lines rather than dotted, indicating that they were observed in the study.

But these are subgroups of Hg J, rather than J2. And of the subgroups in J2 they did observe, Semino et al wrote that: "four [occurred] at informative frequencies". These were J-M172* (J2a1* and J2a1k), J-M102 (J2b1), J-M67 (J2a1b) and J-M92 (J2a1b1). These are the subgroups Semino et al have enough data to identify distinctive geographical patterns for.

Of course, since that time new SNPs have been identified (and will continue to be identified). So giving a total count of subhaplogroups is probably not a good idea, particularly as the article now quotes the whole ISOGG whole tree in full. Maybe best to rewrite it as something like "J2 has been found to include several subhaplogroups (most prominently J-M172* (J2a1* and J2a1k), J-M102 (J2b1), J-M67 (J2a1b) and J-M92 (J2a1b1)), that originated or expanded in different regions"; and add notes to the ISOGG tree extract about their main geographical centres, as has been done in some other haplogroup articles.

Jheald 09:49, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I am getting rid of Kurdistan as a list of countries that the halogroup are in and saying the province of Kurdiatan in Turkey and N. Iraq. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atilla1234 (talk • contribs) 06:13, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is most closely related to Haplogroup I, as both Haplogroup I and Haplogroup J are descendants of Haplogroup IJ (S2, S22).

This statment above is backwords. IJ is theoretical. It has never been found but it's existance in infered by the simlarities between I and J. The article essentially states the opposite. Claiming that I and J are closely related because they come from IJ. Actually they are said to come from IJ becuase they were aleady recognized as closely relatedHeathcliff (talk) 14:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Haplogroup IJ has a lot of defining SNPs. --YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII (talk) 21:33, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to create a new WikiProject: Genetic History

I have put up a suggestion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals to create a new WikiProject, WikiProject: Genetic History.

To quote from what I've written there:

Description: A wikiproject for articles on DNA research into genetic genealogy and genealogical DNA tests; the history and spread of human populations as revealed by eg human Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA haplogroups; and similar. Many such articles can be found in Category:Genetic genealogy and its subcategories, notably the subcategories on human haplogroups.

Rationale

My direct motivation for seeking this Wikiproject was a recent run-in at Y-chromosomal Aaron, where I desperately missed the lack of a relevant WikiProject talk page to go to, to attract the input, advice and views of knowledgeable editors in this area.

There's a lot of general public interest in the proposed subject area -- eg the Y-chromosomal Aaron page is apparently getting well over 100 hits a day, and over the last 18 months or so there's been a lot of material added, by a fair number of different editors, mostly editing different pages which are particularly relevant to them. IMO, a central wikiproject would be useful, and also a good place to be able to bring WP:OR, WP:V, and WP:general cluelessness issues for wider informed input.

Wikipedia:WikiProject Molecular and Cellular Biology and Wikipedia:WikiProject Evolutionary biology do already exist, but their focus is much much broader. With regard to those project's charters, I believe the subject would be seen as a rather specialist niche topic area, rather out of the mainstream of those project's normal focus. On the other hand, I believe that there are a number of wikipedia editors (and readers) who are specifically interested in the subject, who would find advantage if there were a specific wikiproject for it. Jheald (talk) 12:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If people think this would be a good idea, it's a target for WikiProjects to have at least five "interested" signatures to show there's some support, before they get going.

Alternatively, if people think it would be a bad idea, please leave a comment in the comments section.

Either way, please show what you think, at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Council/Proposals#Genetic_History

Thanks, Jheald (talk) 13:45, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

HAPLOGROUP J ORIGINATED IN IRAN. IT SHOWS HIGHEST DIVERSITY THERE, AND SHOWS A PEAK IN SOUTHWEST IRAN WHERE SOME OF THE OLDEST EVIDENCE FOR FARMING IS FOUND. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.224.35.1 (talk) 17:23, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What's Your source that it's southwestern Iran and not southeastern Turkey or northern Iraq? --YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII (talk) 21:35, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

J1 entered ethiopia in neolithic times ?

...how the author here knows for certain that J1 entered ethiopia only in neolithic times ? maybe it entered ethiopia much later ? it can be possible that J1 entered ethiopia also with ansient israelites or with sabean, south arabian tribes. it is even possible that J1 entered ethiopia with the arab expansion in 600 AD. since i am amhara ethiopian myself and was tested as J1 with adnanite arab or ancient israelite mutations i know for sure that not all J1 entered ethiopia in neolithic times. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.71.18.140 (talk) 00:49, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

J1 in Ethiopia is moderate and exclusive to Semitic speakers.Cadenas2008 (talk) 04:13, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church was part of the Coptic Orthodox Church until 1959, it can be possible that J1 entered ethiopia with copts(Egyptian Christian, J1 with 40%), Thus Ethiopian and Eritrean Christians (and Nubians before their conversion to Islam) were traditionally referred to as Copts --Dukkani (talk) 01:30, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ethiopian Amhara have higher % of J1 33% than (Egyptians 20%). Its generally accepted that Ethiopian J1 came with the Semitic languages. Somalians have it at minimal 2% Non-Semitic Ethiopians at 6%.Cadenas2008 (talk) 00:38, 16 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Before the entry of Islam, Copts were the first inhabitants of Egypt. Coptic Christians have survived as a religious community forming around 10 - 20% of the population, so the comparison should not be with the Egyptians in general, but only with Copts. Ancient Egyptian have higher % of J1 40% than (Ethiopian Amhara 33%).--Dukkani (talk) 13:20, 17 December 2008 (UTC) and the Copts are not a Semitic-speaking peoples--Dukkani (talk) 13:37, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dukkani I am not an Egyptologist to deicde who is ancient Egyptian & who is not. However, studies done on Egypt show that J1 ~20%. The study done on Sudanese Copts shows they have a a 39% frequency of J1 which is higher than any group sampled in Egypt today, Sudanese Bedouin (Arab) groups have ~40% J1 Ebizur just added the frequencies from Hassan et al., so I am working on a new map.

Also the Semitic groups in Ethiopia & Eritrea speak a (non-Arabic) Semitic language that shows they have an older origin -not related to Islamic expansion. The language they speak is closer to ancient South Arabian (~70% J1) than to ancient Egyptian. Cadenas2008 (talk) 05:59, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What are "adnanite arab or ancient israelite mutations"? --YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII (talk) 21:46, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

J Distribution

The map is for J (J1 + J2) not J1 alone. The article is about J Cadenas2008 (talk) 04:07, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry

I wrote in the edit summary "it looks like nobody is watching this page." I mistakenly thought that the edits I reverted were old ones. HD86 (talk) 20:07, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nasty bit of vandalism. Thanks for spotting it - it could very easily have got through. Nobody can watch everything all the time, so it's good that you did happen to check it and you did see it. Jheald (talk) 20:25, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

pure?!

Pure Arabs(in E1b1b1c...): They allegedly originated from the progeny of Ya‘rub bin Yashjub bin Qahtan so were also called Qahtanian Arabs.(Qahtanian Arabs should also include not Adnanian from Ishmael)

Arabized Arabs (in J1e): They allegedly originated from the progeny of Ishmael Son of the biblical patriarch Abraham and were also called ‘Adnani Arabs.--Dukkani (talk) 23:21, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

J1 is the most frequent Y-Chromosome amongst South Arabians +70%. Do you have a DNA sample from Mr Ya'rub bin Qahtan? E1b1b is ~15% amongst South Arabians & a bit higher in the Levant, contradicts your claim? Cadenas2008 (talk) 06:09, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We can speculate that "pure" Semitics were E1b1b1c, but at the era when Arabic broke away from other Semitic languages, they were already mixed. --YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII (talk) 21:41, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Iranian

I removed Iranians from J1, since the link appears to be lead to a general discussion rather than specific percentage of J1 in Iran. However there are many studies that contradict Karger's ( which I believe it stated that Iranians have J1 on average 10%, where 9% is in 33 northern Iranians and 11% in 133 sourthern Iranians)(please let us know if it was any differnet). However based on studies such as [7](where sampling is much larger from Nothern Iranians, size of 80 and 50 people from Tehran and Isfahan), show significantly different proportions.Also J2 is found in shrinking numbers (10% of Tehran and 20% of Isfahan). I will however leave J2 as it seems to exists throughout the country regardless. I will try to find more studies with larger samples than those in Karger's, if anybody is aware of other studies let us know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.106.140 (talk) 04:52, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would hope you left J2 in Iran, as it practically came from there. More specifically, through Turkey and Western Iran. While J itself appears West Asian in origin, J1 formed in southern Arabia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.1.114.97 (talk) 16:47, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

J1 formed in northern Iraq and in proximity. --YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII (talk) 21:42, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Iranians from J1"? All is correct.Why to delete? Iranians even cleanly outwardly look like Saudi/Yemen Arabs and Sefardi Jews.These semitic lines are visible the unarmed look. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.172.58.15 (talk) 08:29, 2 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Map

I'm looking at the distribution map, and though it's quite beautiful, its figures look a little off. Are those really the frequencies for North Africa? What exact study were these based on? And why wasn't Ethiopia included when over 30% of its Semitic-speaking groups belong to J? Causteau (talk) 09:10, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The map says +10%, which is not accurate but an estimate between the ~3% Oromo & Somali frequency & the ~30% Semitic speaking Amhara frequency. Cadenas2008 (talk) 04:19, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On second observation, the map's haplogroup J frequencies for North Africa don't just look a little off; they appear to be completely wrong. The sourced portions of the article, for instance, indicate that haplogroup J enjoys a frequency of ~30% throughout much of North Africa, yet this map makes it seem as though the frequency is only 10% throughout most of the region. 20% of a region as populated as North Africa is no small matter. Again, where are the sources for all this? What map from which study was it based on? Causteau (talk) 02:43, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The J article needs some rewording, I am working on a better version map that will add Hassan et al. (North Sudan), regarding Ethiopia the key thing is accounting for the population overall & not just the Semitic speaking population, for example Oromo, Somali both have very low % of J < 3%(Sanchez et al. 2005, Semino et al. 2004) while Semitic speaking Amhara are ~30%, North Africa is also a bit tricky because Tunisians & East Algerians are ~ 30%, while Egyptians, West Algerians Morrocans are ~20% & Berbers ~10% (Semino 2004, Arredi 2004, Bosch 2005, Zalloua 2006).Cadenas2008 (talk) 04:09, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The article needs major restructuring

Everything tends to suggest that the origin of this haplogroup was Southern Arabia. This isn't the case, although J (mostly in a J1 form), tends to be the predominant haplogroup in Southern Arabia. In fact, it has long been suggested, and supported via (Semino, 2004) that the Turkey and the Iranian plateau was the source of this haplogroup. Quintana-Muci showed the highest group diversity near the Caspian regions and the Zagros regions of Iran. Additionally, J2 and I appear to have been founded through the same region, and spread with the Neolithic (Not to mention R1 derivatives (based off data up to 2009), which generally spread a bit later through Europe).

J1, on the other hand, originated in Arabia, and is confined largely to Semetic speaking populations.

Additionally, examination of ancient Basque skeletons, supports the hypothesis that J was, at one point in time, significantly more frequent in Europe. And more recent studies have linked J to Optic diseases, in a European sample, providing a reason as to how it's frequency has diminished through Europe. Nonetheless, the autosomal evidence has made it clear, that the predominant (at least 85%) ancestral component of modern Europeans is Neolithic, and should be attributed to the influx of Near Eastern populations and their spread of agriculture.

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Quintana-Murci-Iran.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zadeh79 (talk • contribs) 17:24, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

50,000-30,000 BP vs. Haplogroup J is believed to have arisen roughly 30,000 years ago in Southwest Asia (Arabia Felix) (31,700±12,800 years ago according to Semino et al.. 2004).

The box says,"Possible time of origin:50,000-30,000 BP.
The content of the article states," Haplogroup J is believed to have arisen roughly 30,000 years ago in Southwest Asia (Arabia Felix) (31,700±12,800 years ago according to Semino et al.. 2004)
31,700±12,800 years ago is 18,900-44,500 BP.
The article contradicts itself.
JohnLloydScharf (talk) 00:32, 9 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The whole wikipedia article is outdated and based on nothing but conjecture. It should be scrapped or totally rewritten. The citations used belong to a time of the early studies on genetics. The usage of terms like Arabic Felix is emotional. Get up to date studies to cite, and it is well known that both the haplogroup J and Proto Semitic originated in the area in the top of the Levant, Eastern Turkey and the Caucasus region which is probably why the most genetically diverse Js, J1 and J2, come from Anatolia. Proto Semitic has cognates originating in Sumerian and Proto Indo-Iranian/Indo-European.

Studies of Arabs from "Arabia Felix" who happen to belong to J haplogroup show their J haplogroups to be of a less diverse, younger and basically showing a star burst pattern indicating recent settlement in Arabia and with strong founder and inbreeding effects. The J haplogroup is only a couple of downstream steps from haplogroup F, compare that with haplogroup Q and R which are obviously much younger, and show recent origins to where they are currently found in high frequencies indicative of a Bronze Age introduction. Anyway, get up-to-date and desist from using archaic citations and assumptions than cannot be proven. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PontoHardbottle (talk • contribs) 09:12, 21 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

czech republic

The percentage is so low, it is not relevant. imho. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.121.1.113 (talk) 20:49, 2 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I dont understand why they have used this map obviously the precentage of the J haplogroup is reporded to be 28,2% in Iran ,you can see that in the Distribution section, then why are you using this map ?this has to change immidiately — Preceding unsigned comment added by NatiNatasha (talk • contribs) 11:49, 9 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

All ref links having been broken: Possible solutions

FOUND IT... but maybe you can do the other part that needs to be done: SOLVE it. ;-) haplogroup J-M172 article has the same problem: each spot where there's normally a ^ref^ tag now has a deadlink: you can click on the ref...but it DOESN'T lead you to the full citation near the bottom of the article, when ya click it! The new formatting was added 3 January 2013: up till then, we had 15-16 items in the "main" References (footnotes) section: [8] Rebekah's the culprit. :-) She was adding the "phylogenetic footnotes" in a separate "reflist" and just as I suspected, that's when she broke it: as she was trying to get 2 separate reflist's (she was adding a 2nd reflist for the "phylogenetic footnotes").

The original complaint about this invalid & non-standard ^ref^ formatting was made by Lothar von Richthofen.[9] The same deadlink ref-tag-substitutes are plaguing a related article: [10] A few potential ways to solve it...I've no idea which is best or easiest, but please do it in both articles (maintain consistency & save someone else who might read the J-M172 article the headache of "figgering it out"):

go back to normal ref tags:
- will a simple "revert" work since so much info (and thus more tags) was added since she did that last January?? (NOTE that there are still 8 sources using ^ref^ tags but, the "main" reflist had 16 items in it when Rebekah began her "improvements" so now an extra 8 ref's in this article are 'broken' e.g. will not help the user by scrolling-down automatically to the Full Citation when ya click on the ref... and a whopping 35 more have this problem in that M172 article.
- or MANUALLY copy-paste thru the whole article (about 35 MORE ref's would need this in the M192 article...just in the M-172 article, which has the SAME problem.
Fix her method which doesn't use ^ref^ tags (I've never seen that type of ref on Wikipedia, so I've no clue how to fix that TYPE of citation/ref... except MAYBE that we need a "reflist|group=harv" -- or something like that -- instead of just a plain "reflist" for those sources listed in the "Works Cited" section? 72.183.52.92 (talk) 13:49, 6 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Attributing J-P209 to Semitic

Hello all, it is wrong to attribute J-P209 to only Semitic people in the intro of the paragraph because it is apparent that this paragroup seems among not only Semitic people, but also Indo-Europeans such as Greeks, Persians, Italians and also among Nakh people, Turks and Caucasians. Therefore, it is better to use a reasonable sentence which emphasizes the geographical locations instead of races. In this sense, I make a change in the intro sentence. Surely, you can contribute to it. Best wishes, 141.196.195.119 (talk) 12:17, 7 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree.Here all is added to the Arabs and Semites.--109.172.58.15 (talk) 08:38, 2 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Assyrians in Daghestan according to Yunusbayev?

Sorry, but this article is exposed to the permanent attacks from the side of nationalist engaged users from Russia and Turkic-speaking republics of Russia.Numerous inaccuracies, errors, every nonsense, are inserted with an only aim to humiliate, distort to make mischief.Here it is written that "Yunusbaev 2006:Stats are for combined Dagestan ethnic groups see the Dagestan article for details. Dargins (91%), Avars (67%), Chamalins (67%), Lezgins (58%), Tabassarans (49%), Andis (37%), Assyrians (29%), Bagvalins (21.4%))".Who and why it did insert this fiction in text in the division of references? What it the yet lost tribe of Babylon? The so called "Assyrians" (modern Assyrians are really Arameans with Aramaic language) in Daghestan? "Most of the J1 in the Caucasus, Anatolia and Europe is of the non-J1-P58 variety. These branches diverged from one another during the Ice Age and have nothing to do with Semitic people". Modern Assyrians(of Iraq/Iran etc.) really have a high percent of haplogroup J1 because they are people of Abraham.The biblical Abraham (aram. Ebrahim) belonged to Hurrians of Mitanni (ancient Ebartu/Naharayna etc. "across the river").His Hebrew nickname was "vagrant Aramean"(The biblical "Abraham's city of Ur" is a rethinking of the Akkadian word urru "early morning" (probably identical also with Gothic urruns "sunrise,the east,exodus"), which is a symbol of the Hurrians).The Eastern Hurrians of Upper Messopotamia mentioned in sources as Subareans,and most supreme rulers of Assyrian Empire belonged to the Subarean clans: "The most ancient Assyrian tsars were closely associated with the native subarean population of country...In an equal measure some Mitannian influence is felt in most ancient Assyria" (See Avdiev V.I. Istoria drevnego Vostoka.Leningrad.1953.P.416).In the Assyrian sources, according to an academic Avdiev V.I., "these north mountain tribes of Subari" are mentioned also "habitants of the Upper country"(P. 215).

Certainly, it is a fact that J1 is Hurrian/Subarean haplogroup initially.No the bedouins from Negev or Saudi Arabia! J1(J<IJ) is marker of Hurrian/Subarean nation of Abraham,marker of Clan of God etc.,haplogroup of the Abrahamity.Sorry,with all of it I agree but that the Assyrians live in mountains of southern Russian so called "Republic of Daghestan" (in historical reality Särir: Taχistan & Caspian Hunnia) is nonsense .What aim is pursued by similar humiliating references? Yunusbayev has no relation neither to the Caucasus nor to Assyria. Yunusbayev Bayazit is the Pan-Turkist engaged subject from the Turkic Republic of Bashkortostan (RU).In addition, all data about Avarian genetic are taken from only one source.This is work of Kazima Bulayeva.She worked in a village Novomekhelta, majority this population is migrants from Akhwakh territory (Mountain Mekhelta village).It is population with the separate and absolutely unclear language for Avars.Another data (of really Avar people) are not present in Russia.I repeat all present data draw from Bulayeva Kazima's work (village of Akhvakhian migrants of Novomekhelta).

Here on a site like Eupedia write about everything that you want, what percentage of something at the "Cohen clan", "the Levites" , or about the "importance of Kurdistan haplogens"(!?),"genetic links of european genes to Armenians /Georgians" etc. However, all this is of secondary importance. Enough to distort and misinterpret! It is a fact that it is in the North Caucasus live the direct and the most ethnically pure descendants of the ancient haplogroup J (with very ancient native caucasian languages like Basque, Yenisseian Ket, Himalayan Hunza,Tibetans etc. and with so called "caucasiony anthropological type" like Dinarid among Balkanians), people-icon,the racial and mental STANDART for all other modern peoples of J1/J2! Not the Jews and the Phoenicians, but the native Northern Caucasus with mountain "caucasiony" - Balkanian Dinarids - Proto-Teutons it is really genetical-racial basis,core of IJ. Also the modern Italians with haplogroup J are no descendants of the Phoenicians, Jews and Syrian Slaves as writes Christian- Judeo - centrist Eupedia. This was Caucasian march through Anatolia to West. The ancient Etruskans also had a language that is hypotetical similar to the native Caucasians.

All Caucasians from Caspian (Wrkan/Gorgan) sea to historical Carpathian-Transylvanian Caucaland with haplogroups J1,J2 are foremost Ḫůrro-Caucasians and Ḫůrro-Caucasian World,according to bibl./akkad./aram. sources "Sons of Beyt Ebartu/Naharayna", "Khorrəim/Subari". The own name of so called Mitannian (also Hurrian) hurritized Aryans was also in cuneiform ḪRY (ḪRJ in works of German authors;See Schmökel H. Die ersten Arier im Alten Orient.Leipzig,1938.S.16), in the Egyptian sources Syria and Palestine are named as "earth of people of Ḫari". The Jews with J1/J2 are in reality semitized Hurro-Mediterraneans (or Hurro-Israelites), J1/J2 among Horasani Persians, Afghans (J2) & Uyghurs(J2) are Hurro-Parthians and J2 among Greeks are Hurro-Mediterraneans etc. It is necessary resolutely to dissociate oneself from more than doubtful Sudaneses, Yemenites, Ethiopians and them similar to.Any normal man sees and understands this difference. Northern Caucasian Nakh-Daghestanian peoples and their neighbours do not speaking Semitic languages and cleanly anthropologically (Balkano-Caucasian race,-according to the terminology of Soviet anthropologists) also very distant from south Arabs and Ethiopians with Somalians.It is real so.If there are some reasons, is needed to explain, why all these people of Balkano-Caucasian race do not Semitic-speaking. And also why they and does not have such Negroid facial features and dark skin as South Arabs,Sudaneses,Ethiopians etc. Sorry,haplogroup J (<IJ) it is not camels,date-palms and Arabs (pure Arabs)! This haplogroup is haplogroup of freedom-loving armed militant Highlanders,snow-capped rough mountains,rapid rivers and a rising sun as a sacred sign of good (hur. hwyrrə/hurri "Morning,Orient,Land of Hurrites"). According to academic Avdiev V.I. "winged sun is typical Hurrian motiv".It is necessary clearly and clear to differentiate Hurro-Caucasians (also Hurro-Europeans,Hurro-Parthians )from all this Pan-Babylonian fantastic nightmare, delirium. As a last resort it is necessary for these not-Semitic,not-Arabic originally people will create a separate article on Wikipedia, without Somalis, Ethiopians and south Arab headscarves.

What education and mentally limit people is this article counted on? Who is it wanted to deceive? The Hurrians/Subareans originally a nation number 1 in the Levant, Eastern Anatolia and northern Iraq. Great Armenia (or Eastern Anatolia), Upper Mesopotamia, Syria and partly Palestine all of it initially belonged to the Hurrians and ethnic groups with a noticeable Hurrian presence.The modern Armenians are armenized Hurro-Urarteans and Byblical Ararat mountain is distorted Hurrian word of "Uruatri" that means "Urartu"(See Avdiev V.I. Istoria drevnego Vostoka.Leningrad.1953.P.458 ).

And in the end I want to express most important - all your speculations about "Arabic expansion",a "semitic roots" etc. is no more as fantasy of the Arabic nationalists. "In fact the origins of J1 lie around the Caucasus, which explains that all branches other than P58 are most common in that region, as well as in Anatolia and Europe".The most ancient tracks of J1 Haplogroup found in one ancient man of caves of Caucasian Republic of Georgia."The first J1 men lived in the Late Upper Paleolithic, shortly before the end of the last Ice Age. The oldest identified J1 sample to date comes from Satsurblia cave (c. 13200 BCE) in Georgia (Jones et al. (2015)), placing the origins of haplogroup J1 in all likelihood in the region around the Caucasus, Zagros, Taurus and eastern Anatolia during the Upper Paleolithic".http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml--109.172.58.15 (talk) 18:57, 29 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Article shouldn't begin with Chinese, Kazakhs and Uzbeks

Why article about a Middle Eastern haplogroup J has to begin with unclear digression to China, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan?Completely became impudent.Article for example about Sumer, the Hittit kingdom or Assyria for some reason can't to begin with the Kazakh mutton or the Uzbek pilaf. On what basis these Mongoloid populations have to take the FIRST place in article about Haplogroup J? They have far (and even very far!) relation to J halkogroup. If to Chinese, Kazakhs, the Uzbeks has somehow the luck to appear among owners of the West Asian, Middle Eastern haplogroup J too that should be written about it at the very end of article, but not right at the beginning. Therefore I suggest to change the beginning of article and to move Mongoloid Chinese, Kazakhs, etc. to the end of article --Wrkan (talk) 11:54, 28 June 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wrkan (talk • contribs) 11:46, 28 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Inaccurate citation

The actual paper says haplogroup E rather than haplogroup J, and the percentages are incorrect. — Stevey7788 (talk) 07:09, 17 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(Removed from article)

In Ethiopia, haplogroup J has been found to be strongly associated with elite endurance. J sublineages are the most common paternal clades borne by such athletes (30% of 5K-10K runners; 43% of marathon runners), with a lower frequency in the general population (25%).^[1]

Instead:

E*, E3* and K*(xP) are positively associated with aspects of endurance running, whereas E3b1 is negatively associated.

(from http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2004/10/y-chromosome-haplogroups-of-elite.html)

References

^ Moran, Colin N.; et al. (2004). "Y chromosome haplogroups of elite Ethiopian endurance runners" (PDF). Human Genetics. 115 (6): 492–497. doi:10.1007/s00439-004-1202-y. PMID 15503146. Retrieved 11 May 2017. {{cite journal}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |last1= (help)

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The frequency map

The frequency map in this article is of extremely poor quality and much of the frequencies are contradicted by large studies. This image wasn't on this article until late 2019 and I believe it should be removed entirely from the article or completely overhauled. There are well sourced tables on the English Wikipedia which contradict nearly every frequency on this image. For example: Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_North_Africa, Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_the_Near_East, Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_Europe, Haplogroup_J_(Y-DNA)#Subclade_distribution. Dumuh (talk) 11:21, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cruelly outdated

Regrettably, editing here stopped with ISOGG 2012, un fact at least updated at 2019/2020!!! In addition, Maciamo is not really a peer-reviewed study and also meanwhile slowing down editin his talks.2A02:8108:9640:1A68:7082:4FF1:3515:F6D2 (talk) 06:57, 2 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Moran, Colin N.; et al. (2004). "Y chromosome haplogroups of elite Ethiopian endurance runners" (PDF). Human Genetics. 115 (6): 492–497. doi:10.1007/s00439-004-1202-y. PMID 15503146. Retrieved 11 May 2017. {{cite journal}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |last1= (help)

[1]