Talk:Habesha peoples/Archives/2018/May

Requested move 5 January 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is a consensus that this is the common name used in English and should remain the title of this article. It looks like the original editor that proposed this may have changed their mind based on this fruitful discussion, so this could be closed as withdrawn. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bradv 22:19, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

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Abyssinian people → Habasha people – An IP user left a message on my talk page asking for me to move this page. I declined, mainly because I believe they mistook what I meant by "on the talk" in an edit summary, and told them I would copy their statement here and start an RM for them (see this). Here is what they wrote:

"First let me give you an example of why the title doesn't make sense for this page I am habasha, Tigirnya habasha to be exact and Tigrinyas are only found and are native to Eritrea our Ethiopians Counterparts the the Tigrayans the difference is they live in Ethiopia and we live in Eritrea that is the main difference and we are both habasha but we are not both Abyssinian, Abyssinia was used as the name of the country now called Ethiopia it was used by outsiders as name for people who come from Ethiopia but we are not Ethiopians we are Eritreans so we can not be Abyssinians. Every ethnic group in Ethiopia was considered Abyssinian therefore the title of the page is incorrect.The ethnic groups listed in the page as "Abyssinians" is not correct because Tigrinya Eritreans are not "Abyssinian" they are Eritreans but they are still listed in this page when they are not Abyssinian(Ethiopian) but what is incorrect is the title of page "Abyssinian" the tile should be Habasha that is what the Ethnic groups you listed are and what they are mainly referred to by outsiders who have knowledge about them and by Habasha people themselves. This page has always been called Habasha as far as I remember until last year. Whoever made that mistake has confused a lot of people on a non confuseing issue. We are called and mainly refered to and refer ourselves as Habasha not AByssinians so I request you [referring to me, but I now bring this here] change the title from "Abyssinian" to its original title before it was changed which is "Habasha" thank you."

I myself will have no say in this discussion, and will invite the IP user to this discussion. JudgeRM (talk to me) 02:43, 5 January 2017 (UTC) --Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:38, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

Oppose: title was changed after a long discussion [1]. Axumites and Daamat inhabitants are called Abyssinians [2][3][4] and I beleive those kingdoms are also part of the Eritrean history as they were also listed under formation in Eritrea article. From historical perspective when scholars use the term 'Abyssinians' to talk about Axum and Daamat then they are including their direct descendants the Tigrinya speaking people (including Eritreans) while other ethnicgroups are more mixed to other people[5]. Self identification is important for a tribe or an Ethnicgroup but for an ethnolinguistic group name of the language family is important. One example being the Iranian peoples and all the 235 million people put under this ethnolinguistic group do not identify themselves as Iranians but only 79 million Iranians only do. The Ethiosemitic language family is refered as "Abyssinian languages"[6] while the oldest language within the group, Ge'ez, was also referred as "Abyssinian"[7] but no source refer that language family as "Habesha languages". Other issue is Habesha is mainly used by Arabs and Turks to refer mixed people and use it to not also call the Ethiosemitic group but also other mixed looking people such Afro-asiatic people (the Cushitic Beja people) and also mixed people with Arab and Black parentage.[8][9][10] — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 10:40, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose - Abyssinian people is the English language WP:COMMONNAME for population. It is also attested to at least the 1500s [11] [12]. Soupforone (talk) 16:27, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
• Approve Hi I am the IP user who requested the Page to be retitled to its old name "Habasha people" I am Habasha, The page is really messed up, the page was called "Habasha people" before and it was fine but now the title is completely incorrect. The word "Abyssinia" comes from the word "Habasha" the word Habasha referred to the Amhara Tigrinya Tigrayans tigre Gurage and Etc the northern Ethnicties basically but Tigrinyas and Tigre are not Ethiopians so why they are listed as Abyssinian. Not trying to sound rude our anything but the people who want to keep the name of the page as Abyssinia are not even from the area or are Ethiopian Nationalists and Don't really have an understanding of the society around the word Habasha, as a Habasha myself I think would be more reliable than any source about my own people. So I will say it, Abyssinia means Ethiopia ok its an English word for Ethiopia. Abyssinia was not referred to Eritrea, the Ethnicities listed in the page as "Abyssinians" Are not all "Abyssinians" because "Abyssinian" means Ethiopian everybody in Ethiopia is known as an Abyssinian, but the Eritrean Habasha groups like Tigrinya are not Abyssinains because they don't come from there but the title of the page would be correct it was "Habasha" because Habasha in the most loose sense to Ethiopians and Eritreans means if you are from both Eritrea and Ethiopia but in its main sense the Habasha people are the Ethncities listed by Wikipedia as "Abyssinians" if that makes sense. I don't understand the big deal a very minimal amount of Eritreans who is "Habasha" but in this case is being referred as "Abyssinian" has probably ever heard the word "Abyssinian" they have all heard of the word Habasha including Ethiopians most of them haven't even heard the word "Abyssinian" Either but they all know "Habasha". Most people when they look for this page most likely typed in habasha people and came to find out they are called "Abyssinians" by Wikipedia so they think they are Ethiopians and its very confusing you see the guy called Ethiopian habasha do you know why he wants the page to be called called Abyssinian? because it means people can now Identifiy Eritreans such as tigrinyas as people from Ethiopia and as Ethiopians man I am really angry and this stupid stuff we Eritean Tigrinyas are by the term known as habasha but we don't even like being referred to as habasaha but now calling us Abyssinians is just making it worse. 18:41 7th January 2017 (UTC) — Preceding Wizeone2 comment added by Wizeone2 (talk • contribs)

I understand your concern. Historically speaking Abyssinian are the Amhara people however the Tigrinya people also share cultural/religious characteristics with the Abyssinians, therefore they are bundled together. There's also a new Habesha identity defined by politically driven Ethiopian-Americans (Amhara who oppose Ethiopian government) which excludes many Oromo and Muslims while including Eritrean Americans. The inclusion of Eritreans may be the result of the Eritrean governments opposition to the Ethiopian government thus they are labelled "true ethiopians" by some in the diaspora. Duqsene (talk) 20:09, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Wizeone2, as you see I also use "Habesha" and the way I use the term is not to refer semitic speaking people but to refer people who look mixed (who look like us) and behaves similarly. Back home the term is used to refer everything that is native and used as in habesha guy (meaning the native guy) as opposed to ferenge guy (meaning the white guy) or "ye habesha gomen" as opposed to "ye ferenge Gomen" etc. It is for this and the other reasons I explained above title was changed so that people are not confused. If you have an alternative title for the ethnoliguistic group, other than Habesha, that do not confuse people may be you could suggest one. No one uses 'Abyssinian' for day to day communications and I do not know why it is an issue for you. Besides, in history book Axumites are refered as 'Abyssinians' and I beleive the Tigrinya and Tigre Eritreans are their direct descendants unlike the Amharas who are more related with the Shewan and Ifat sulatante inhabitants such as the Argobbas and Hararis. Axum Kingdom is also referred as Abyssinia kingdom and is listed under Eritrea formation which I think you have no problem with that. Finally, please see this map saying that Eritreans and Somalains are part of the Romance peoples even though Tigrinya language is not classified under Romance language while both Tigrinya and Tigre are classified as Abyssinian languages [13] — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 22:28, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Duqsene, Ok but I have never heard of someone calling Eritean Tigrinyas "Abyssinians" ever, ever, ever its so stupid to call us Abyssinians look at the Abyssinian crisis do you think the Europeans where referring to Eritreans or Ethiopians? They were referring to Ethiopians and everyone in Ethiopia as Abyssinian they weren't referring to Eritrans tigrinyas or any Eritreans, Abyssinian is not an Ethnic group it was the name of the country of modern day Ethiopia it reffered to everybody who lived and was from Ethiopia its doesn't refer to the semetic speaking peoples of Ethiopia and Eritrea like the page suggests. Ethiopians when they talk they don't go around saying ' I am Abyssinian' they say 'I am Habasha' When Eritreans tigrinyas talk they don't say 'I am Abyssinian' they say I am 'Habasha' go look at the most popular youtube video about Ethiopian music Its called ' yene habasha' its not called 'yene Abyssinian' its called 'yene Habasha' because that what we know ourselves as and that's what we are known as to other people as 'Habashas' even a European who is familiar with Ethiopian and Eritrean people and talk to us they don't ask 'Are you Abyssinian' they say 'Are you habasha' that is how common and accepted the term 'Habasha' is for the ethnicities listed on the Wikipedia page 'Abyssinian people' , We Tigrinyas are Eritreans we are not Abyssinians so its is really frustrating I am not saying this to you but 'If you guys want to make the page 'Abyssinian people' stay that way then Remove the Eritrean Ethnic groups such as the Tigrinya because that means we are Ethiopian we have never recognised ourselves with that word or identifiy or have widely been referred to by that word it is offensive because it makes it seem like we are not Eritreans but that we are Ethiopians and its all so offensive because most of us don't even know that word or refer to ourselves with that word on the otherhand if the page was named to 'Habasha people' Like it used to be then Eritrean Tigrinya which is a Habasha group wouldn't be a problem on that page. And back to you Dugsene I hope you agree with my concern and vote to Approve on this issue. Thanks.- Wizeone2) (Wizeone2)00:51 8th January 2017 (UTC)

EthiopianHabesha Come onthe page of the Title was 'Habasha' and it was fine and ok for years and then somebody had to change it and now it is so confusing for other people. I guarantee you when someone gets to the page 'Abyssinian people' they would have typed in 'habasha people' to get there because that is what we are known as. It is really insulting to include us Eritrean Tigrinyas as 'Abyssinian' that word 'Abyssinian' basically means everybody who is an Ethiopian alright it means everybody from Ethiopia, We are Eritreans 'Abyssinia' has absolutely no connection or relevance or significance to us Eritrean Tigrinyas I swear in our eyes infact in the eyes of people who even know the term Abyssinian it means Ethiopian ok, and it is so offensive and irresponisble to refer to Eritrean Habasha Ethnic groups as 'Abyssinian' which means Ethiopian. To Eritreans who are even familiar to that term and to most people if who have heard of that term, they think Ethiopian. if you ask a Rastafarian what does Abyssinia means they will say it is Ethiopia or Ethiopians ok ,this is such a big problem it is really on my nerves if you want to keep the name of the title as Abyssinian people then completely remove the Eritrean ethnic groups such as Tigrinya's then I will have no problem because we have never identified ourselves with that word. The page Title 'Abyssinan' confuses a lot of people and will anger a lot of people like other Eritreans and to other Eritreans it really offensive. The page it had been called habasha people for years and it had pictures and it was fine and great for years but now the title has created a lot of problems. And your definition of a habasha is stupid we do not refer to people who llok us as habashas we refer to people who look like us speaks our langauges such asmhara Tigrinya gurage etc etc and Is from Ethiopia and Eritrea as habasha we do not refer to half white half black or other people who look similar to us as habasha ok where di you get that from this is such a non issue but then someone want to complicate everything and make people angry by calling the page 'Abyssinian people' change it back to ' Habasha people' - Wizeone2) (Wizeone2)01:33 8th January 2017 (UTC)

Wizeone2, no Ethiopian presently or in the past also identifies himslef as 'Abyssinian' since this word is not known for those people who do not know English. Many scholars who travelled to the region like James Bruce, Henry Salt and many cartographers have included the Tigrinya speaking Eritreans under Abyssinia (Axum kingdom) upto the 1887 (map from British Library,Book from Indiana university Press,James Bruce Book,James Bruce Book,Henry Salt Book), and if you say those scholars are not including Eritrean Tigrinyas and Tigre people who are the direct descendants of Ge'ez (Abyssinian) speaking people (While Amharas are more related to Argobbas and Hararis [14]) when they use the term 'Abyssinians' then are you also saying we should remove Axum kingdom from Eritrea formation list because that word is not including them? If so please state clearly and we will make wikipedia a place for writing contents that makes sense. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 12:06, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

EthiopianHabesha Are you being serious? You changed the name of a page just because of 2 so called scholars opinions are I feel like you are just attempting to popularize the word 'Abyssinian'Because to most who know it they think of Ethiopia and Every citizen of Ethiopia. Axumites were Tigray's and Tigrinya's. Why don't you just makes things easy for people and just leave it as 'Habasha' are you trying to gain something politically from it? really I just started editing on Wikipedia with an account if there was more of us habashas on here this would not have happened. It was fine for soo long and for some many years I'm really wondering why you decided to come along and just change? hmmmm . You know exactly what Habashas is and you know exactly what Abyssinian is,this isn't a game this will confuse so many people and anger many people too using the opinions of a small amount of old European explorers to justify your change to the page is stupid it is about our people we should be allowed to call it by what we go along and what is widely accepted by others not by the opinon of a few from a long time ago. And the word we are fine with is 'Habasha' and not 'Abyssinian' if you want to keep it as Abyssinian either delete the whole article or delete the Eritrean ethnic groups Tigrinyas and Tigre your view of what habasha means is irritiaitng. Change it back to what it was or remove our Eritrean ethnic groups from that page then you can have you way I won't stand for incorrect information such as our people being referred to as 'Abyssinians' which means all Ethiopians to me and to most who have even heard the word. Also I advise you to go to the urban dictionary to see which term is more accurate and more popular and accepted type habasha in the urban dictionary and then type Abyssinia. That alone will prove my point out on how inaccurate and confusing the word 'Abyssinian' is when using it to describe us people who refer to ourselves and are referred to as 'habashas' i hope you come to your senses and change the page back to 'Habasha people' which would be correct and acceptable it had been called that for years and years. Wizeone2 (talk) 17:11, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Wizeone2, am not popularizing any terms it's just confuses other people to say Habesha means Semitic speakers. Let me ask you, how do you personally use the term 'Habesha' since I did explain how I use it above. Abyssinian is used by scholars and not used in everyday conversation and when the scholars use Abyssinian in the past to tell history before 1887 then they are also including Tigrinya speaking Eritreans. If you beleive all Tigrniya speaking people do not share any kind of history please state clearly and may be we discuss about that. If 165 million people who do not identify thmsleves as Iranians were placed under the ethnolinguistic group article Iranian peoples and if two rival nations who fight with nuclear like North Koreans and South Koreans or Indian Punjabis and Pakistani Punjabis have a common article called Koreans and Punjabis then what is the issue with using 'Abyssinians' in which no Ethiopian and no Eritreans use it to identify themselves and which is a term just used in books written in English? — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 16:59, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

EthiopianHabesha What? Show me proof a lot of people get confused by the word Habesha? Somalis all use it to describe Eritreans and Ethiopians who are mainly Tigrinya and Amhara and other northerners so do the arabs and so do Sudanese and those are the main people who use it so who is getting confused? I think it you who is confused. This another piece of evidence that you are trying to popularize the word Abyssinian. Go look on the urban dictionary and see what search is more popular and more accurate to the description of an 'Habasha but in the Wikipedia title is named 'Abyssinian ' here is a link to the habesha part http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=habesha and here is a link to the Abyssinian Secion http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Abyssinian do you see which word is actually more inline and more popular? The Abyssinian section does even have a reference to Ethiopians and Eritreans it is referring a cat that is how uknown and and unsed it is yet you want to use that over the proper word Habasha which is much more widely accepted and used and which is actually correct and much more straight forward and less confusing? You are very confused and you are a rare case remember the Wikipedia page was 'Habasha' for years and it was fine until you had to change it now you are going to have a lot of problems. So either delete tigirnyas and other Eritrean ethnic groups from the page if you insist on keeping it as Abyssinian OR the least you can do is make the main Title Habasha and the 'also known as' as Abyssinian that would be more acceptable but to make 'Abyssinian' the main title is very distasteful do you even know where the word Abyssinian come from? It come from Portuguese not from English it is a portugese version of the word Habesha. And do you even know why they changed it from habesha to ABYSS-inia? do you even know what Abyss means? Do you want that in your peoples name? Do you want the word Abyssinia which means (to everyone who even knows the word) Ethiopia, to describe Eritrean ethnic groups? Have some decency 2 so called scholars is not a good enough justification to rename a people from habesha which is what they are called by millions and millions and by themselves to 'Abyssinian' A word barely heard by anyone a word not even used anymore an outdated word an unpopular word do you want that? Have some decency. The least you could do is help and make the Main Title 'Habesha' Which is what it was and is much more widely accepted and me the 'Also known as' part 'Abyssinians' Until then I will always have a problem with this article and I will try my best to change it because I know most agree with me and that is because it is I am correct. Why do you think it was always titled 'habesha' for years and years and years until you came along and confused everyone by changing it to 'Abyssinian'. A lot of people have been confused by this and offended by the title being Changed from 'habesha' to 'Abyssinian' and including me and I will not stand for it as I have a Wikipedia account to express my concerns. Even the user Duqsene agreed and understands my concern Wizeone2 (talk) 23:44, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Wizeone2, please note that I did not change the title. We discussed and then title changed by another user. I think we could solve the issue if you could answer some of the questions I asked above such as:

1) When scholars use "Abyssinians" to refer inhabitants of Daamat and Axum Kingdom (Ge'ez Speaking people) where they not also including the ancestors of modern-day Tigrinya speaking Eritreans?

If you answer this questions in WP:Goodfaith then I think we can solve the issue. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 11:16, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

EthiopianHabesha What scholars how many scholars? 2, 3, or 40? how many Where referring to Eritreans as Abyssinians? your argument is not good the title you chose is confusing people so much you don't even understand. Abyssinian is a portugese version of 'Habasha' not English so what is the problem why did you change it, to make it look fancy? The difference is we Eritreans are not ok with that term 'Abyssinian' because we have never heard that word or connect with it, and vast majority of people are not familiar with that term but people are vastly more familiar with the word Habasha. Did you even look at the links I showed you? is that not enough to tell you how much you are confusing people? Wizeone2 (talk) 23:32, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

EthiopianHabesha Actually I don't mind Abyssinian being used as a title anymore I like it. Wizeone2 (talk) 22:36, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Wizeone2, thanks for understanding. I think you can change your vote above from "Approve" to "Oppose". Cheers — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 15:26, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.