Talk:Gypsy, Roma and Traveller people (UK)

Please do not delete

Somehow I managed to create a duplicate page from this one called Gypsies, Roma and Travellers in the UK, which has now thankfully been deleted. Apologies for my mistake. Boynamedsue (talk) 19:31, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Remove unsourced edits

I have reversed the recent good faith edits which significantly worsened the content of this article. The sources did not support the language used or claims made, and throughout there was a confusion between Roma and Gypsies which led to tautological statements at various places. At times this verged on erasure of Gypsies and them being subsumed with Roma into a generic "Romany" category, which goes against the preferences and self definition of English and Welsh Gypsies. It also goes against the very clear usage by scholars and the British government which treats indigenous travelling groups as separate from Roma, who are defined as recent migrants from Eastern Europe. Boynamedsue (talk) 09:35, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Just to clarify this, the term "Roma" in GRT does not cover Romani groups which have been in the UK for hundreds of years. These groups do not currently use the term Roma to describe themselves and attributing it to them is an exonym, which we should not be using. From the article in Radical Statistics used in the text: Unfortunately, the GTAAs were contracted out to a range of consultants and universities of varying credibility, each of which decided its own methodology; but since the pressure from the local authorities funding GTAAs (and having to agree their findings) was to lower the numbers needing accommodation, we can treat the Traveller Movement’s (2013) calculation of around 120,000 Gypsies and Travellers (ie those whom the EU calls Roma, but don’t call themselves Roma) in England in 2011 and 2012 as a reliable minimum figure.Boynamedsue (talk) 10:19, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

The current version maintains a more balanced approach to nuanced topics, rather than endorsing a singular viewpoint, especially when sources indicate that the information in question is not universally accepted. There has historically been limited definitive knowledge about the Romani in Britain outside of the Romani community itself.

You claimed that a source did not contain data, but it actually does (country of birth data can be found in section 10 of the 2021 census report). Additionally, you changed the lead to state that Roma are defined as recent Romani migrants from Eastern Europe, despite the census data showing that the majority of Roma migrants in England and Wales were born in Italy and 13.9% were born in England. Romani people around the world, (including English and Welsh gypsies) are often denoted as “Romani”, and organisations such as the World Roma Congress use the name “Roma”. Historically Romani people across Europe have also been denoted as “Gypsies” in Britain. In Britain, the name “Roma” is mainly used by Romani people from mainland Europe and the name “Gypsies” is mainly used by Romanichal, Kale and Scottish Lowland Gypsies, and this information is in the article. However this does not imply that the usage is universal amongst Romani people in the UK. It seems apparent that the definition and usage of these terms in Britain is more nuanced than your version suggests.

EggplantSandwich (talk) 08:26, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

The GOV UK Gypsy, Roma and Irish Traveller ethnicity which you have referred to also shows that the 2011 census group together the write-in responses Gypsy and Irish Travellers and Gypsy/Romany. The Roma category was only added to the census in 2021, and according to the data most Romani people who identified as Roma in the census were from Italy and a portion were born in England. The historical and current usage of these terms reveal a complexity and overlap that contradict the suggestion of a clear division. EggplantSandwich (talk) 08:52, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

In terms of definitions, we have lots of sources which use one modern definition of GRT. Gypsies (indigenous groups of Romani origin), Roma (recent immigrants from Eastern/Central Europe of Romany origin) and Travellers (indigenous groups of non-Romani/partial Romany origin) We must follow the sources, as wikipedia is based on sources. The census data is not supported on the specific page that you use to source it, however, I am sure it is available elsewhere, which is why I added citation needed.Boynamedsue (talk) 09:47, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Many sources define these terms differently. I am simply advocating for the article’s language to retain the acknowledgement of the varied usage of these terms by organisations and Romani people themselves, rather than making broad claims on the basis of specific sources. The article clearly indicates the general usage of these terms.

“Roma are first recorded as 'Egyptians' in England in 1505 but they may have already been there for some time…Nomadic Gypsies and Travellers travelled more in the spring, summer and autumn months…Settled Roma had bought land for their caravans close to cities to work in industry…The 1960 Caravan Sites Act was directed against private permanent caravan sites, such as those of the Roma.”(https://www.refworld.org/reference/countryrep/mrgi/2018/en/121796)

“Roma people from all over Europe met in England in 1971. The Roma, who migrated from India over a thousand years ago, were often called gypsies and many led a travelling life.”(https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3ct1x38)

“Roma is often applied as an umbrella term which includes people who identify with wide ranging national, linguistic, occupational, and cultural positions. Accordingly, the Council of Europe’s general definition applies to ‘Roma, Sinti, Kale and related groups in Europe, including Travellers and the Eastern groups [Dom and Lom], and covers the wide diversity of the groups concerned, including persons who identify themselves as Gypsies’.” (https://www.grthm.scot/grts-in-scotland)

”In many ways, the lives of the Roma community in the UK (sometimes known as a sub-group called Romanichal Travellers) have become more difficult in recent years… The Roma have formed part of British society for centuries, as early as at least the 16th Century: yet, they have faced persistent discrimination, with deportation or execution a common British punishment for the crime of simply being a member of the Roma.”(https://www.thenewfederalist.eu/part-of-the-tapestry-the-roma-community-in-the-uk?lang=fr)

”Romany Gypsies belong to the wider Romani people (including Roma, Kale, Sinti and others) who are believed to have left India in the 11th century. Over time, Romani people gained many European influences but kept a distinct ethnicity and heritage. British Romanies first arrived in Britain in the early 1500s, but Romani people can be found worldwide. The word ‘Romani’ represents all Romani people across the world who share the same ethnic origin, while ‘Romany’ tends to be used to refer to people in the UK of that same ethnic origin.”(https://www.gypsy-traveller.org/about-us/frequently-asked-questions/)

“Romany Gypsies, people who are thought to have originally migrated from India and arrived in the UK around the 16th Century. Romany is the word that Gypsy people in England and Wales apply to themselves hence the term Romany…Roma, the word Roma is used as a catch-all term for European ‘Gypsies’. There are several distinct groups of people who have come from Central and Eastern Europe.”(https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/info/20218/equality_and_diversity/698/gypsies_roma_and_travellers)

” The work of the Roma and Travellers Division contributes to promoting and protecting the rights of Roma and Travellers in Council of Europe member States and to fostering equal opportunities, diversity and social inclusion by fighting discrimination and antigypsyism.”(https://www.coe.int/en/web/roma-and-travellers#:~:text=The%20work%20of%20the%20Roma,by%20fighting%20discrimination%20and%20antigypsyism.)

EggplantSandwich (talk) 11:04, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

None of the above quotes provides any definition of Roma in terms of GRT, except the one that agrees with the British government and British traveller organisations definitions. It is true that incorrect usage does occur, but it is specifically contradicted by British Gypsies themselves. This article was based on the best academic sources dealing with the term GRT, lower quality sources using the term "Roma" to describe English Gypsies in articles not dealing with the term GRT are not relevant here.--Boynamedsue (talk) 15:09, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Variation in usage does not equate to incorrect usage. EggplantSandwich (talk) 17:32, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

“Many families avoid officially identifying as GRT in order to reduce the likelihood of discrimination, and the current categories (Gypsy/Roma or Irish Traveller) used by the DfE do not match how some families identify”

(https://www.diverseeducators.co.uk/young-people-on-the-margins-grt-young-people/) EggplantSandwich (talk) 08:48, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

The census data is supported by the source. However, it is quite a lengthy report. I have changed the title and link to the specific section of the report where the data is found.

(https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/ethnicity/articles/romapopulationsenglandandwales/census2021#national-identity-and-country-of-birth) EggplantSandwich (talk) 11:23, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I have split this discussion into sections, given the degree of damage done to this article. Please discuss each issue in the relevant section. Boynamedsue (talk) 09:33, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Definitions of "Gypsy" and "Roma" in the sources on this page

Per our sources: In the UK, it is common to differentiate between Gypsies (including English Gypsies, Scottish Gypsy/Travellers, Welsh Gypsies and other Romany people), Irish Travellers, who have specific Irish roots, and Roma, understood to be more recent migrants from Central and Eastern Europe. (UK parliament)

In policy, advocacy and official public circles, the phrase ‘Gypsies and Travellers’ has become the normal way to describe Britain’s hereditary and traditionally nomadic populations, while GRT (Gypsy, Roma and Traveller) – or increasingly GRTSB (Gypsy Roma Traveller Showperson Boater) -now acts as the catch-all acronym to describe persons with either nomadic or Roma heritage. --Boynamedsue (talk) 07:36, 1 September 2024 (UTC)Taylor and Hinks

English and Welsh Romany (also referred to as Romani, Romanichal or Welsh Kale) have a long history of living in the UK, with historical sources indicating a Romany population in the British Isles as early as 1515, before the formulation of the United Kingdom. Recently, the excavation of a graveyard in Norwich uncovered mitochondrial DNA markers unique to Romany people, suggesting a Romany presence as early as the 11th Century [7]. The term “gypsy” is derivative of “Egyptian”, which is what the settled population considered them to be based on their dark complexion. This is misnomer, and linguistic analysis of the Romani language suggests origination in North India C.12th Century [8] European Roma share the same ancestry as Romany Gypsies, though their population in the UK is much more attributable to contemporary, rather than historical, patterns of migration. In particular, the impact of Romani genocide (Porajmos) and later the expansion of the EU into Eastern European countries, has significantly influenced Roma migration into the UK. Many European Roma reject the term ‘Gypsy’, due to the pejorative connotations associated with the word in Eastern Europe [9].The traveller movement.

These sources all support the rigorous separation of Gypsies and Roma in this text. As referred to in the articles, it is much more common to treat Gypsies and Travellers as a single group, given their similarities in lifestyle. There is a reason the UK uses the term Gypsies, Roma and Travellers, not Roma and Travellers.

There is no mention in the sources of "people who identify", while self-identification is obviously important, it is dealt with in the demographics section.

--Boynamedsue (talk) 07:36, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I have no issue with including this in the body of the article, but I reject its use as a definitive definition. The article reflects that there are different definitions to the one you have provided. Secondly, the article does not dismiss the fact that the Gypsy, Roma, and Traveller community includes individuals with both nomadic and Roma heritage. This information is in fact explicit in the lead. EggplantSandwich (talk) 09:02, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

The definition in the original article and lead are taken specifically from the sources, as shown above. What sources support the text you wish to see?Boynamedsue (talk) 09:43, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

The inclusion of the claim that Romany Gypsies have been in the UK longer than it has existed

The traveller movement and David Cressey, in his definitive history of English Romany Gypsies, Gypsies, specifically states that the Gypsies have been in Britain for longer than the state of the UK has existed.

Boynamedsue (talk) 07:36, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I take no issue with the inclusion of this information. EggplantSandwich (talk) 08:30, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

So why do you keep deleting it?Boynamedsue (talk) 09:07, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

The way it is added seems arbitrary:

“English and Welsh Romanies or Romany Gypsies (also referred to as Romani, Romanichal or Welsh Kale) first arrived in Britain in the 16th century, therefore their presence predates the establishment of the United Kingdom.” EggplantSandwich (talk) 09:35, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

However, I will restore this edit now. EggplantSandwich (talk) 09:39, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Use of the phrase "indigenous gypsies"

In Brown et al's report on Migrant Roma in the UK, the phrase "indigeonous gypsies and travellers" appears 12 times.

Boynamedsue (talk) 07:36, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Travellers are of indigenous origin whereas Gypsies are of non-indigenous origin.

EggplantSandwich (talk) 08:35, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

That is your opinion, not what the sources say. Every ethnic group in the British Isles originates somewhere else. We must reflect the language sources use.Boynamedsue (talk) 09:06, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I really don’t think our opinions differ greatly. However, it seems you prefer to use specific sources to make broad claims about each group, while I believe the article benefits from retaining the acknowledgement of the nuance in the usage of these terms.

“Roma are first recorded as 'Egyptians' in England in 1505 but they may have already been there for some time…Nomadic Gypsies and Travellers travelled more in the spring, summer and autumn months…Settled Roma had bought land for their caravans close to cities to work in industry…The 1960 Caravan Sites Act was directed against private permanent caravan sites, such as those of the Roma.”(https://www.refworld.org/reference/countryrep/mrgi/2018/en/121796)

“Roma people from all over Europe met in England in 1971. The Roma, who migrated from India over a thousand years ago, were often called gypsies and many led a travelling life.”(https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3ct1x38)

“Roma is often applied as an umbrella term which includes people who identify with wide ranging national, linguistic, occupational, and cultural positions. Accordingly, the Council of Europe’s general definition applies to ‘Roma, Sinti, Kale and related groups in Europe, including Travellers and the Eastern groups [Dom and Lom], and covers the wide diversity of the groups concerned, including persons who identify themselves as Gypsies’.” (https://www.grthm.scot/grts-in-scotland)

”In many ways, the lives of the Roma community in the UK (sometimes known as a sub-group called Romanichal Travellers) have become more difficult in recent years… The Roma have formed part of British society for centuries, as early as at least the 16th Century: yet, they have faced persistent discrimination, with deportation or execution a common British punishment for the crime of simply being a member of the Roma.”(https://www.thenewfederalist.eu/part-of-the-tapestry-the-roma-community-in-the-uk?lang=fr)

”Romany Gypsies belong to the wider Romani people (including Roma, Kale, Sinti and others) who are believed to have left India in the 11th century. Over time, Romani people gained many European influences but kept a distinct ethnicity and heritage. British Romanies first arrived in Britain in the early 1500s, but Romani people can be found worldwide. The word ‘Romani’ represents all Romani people across the world who share the same ethnic origin, while ‘Romany’ tends to be used to refer to people in the UK of that same ethnic origin.”(https://www.gypsy-traveller.org/about-us/frequently-asked-questions/)

“Romany Gypsies, people who are thought to have originally migrated from India and arrived in the UK around the 16th Century. Romany is the word that Gypsy people in England and Wales apply to themselves hence the term Romany…Roma, the word Roma is used as a catch-all term for European ‘Gypsies’. There are several distinct groups of people who have come from Central and Eastern Europe.”(https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/info/20218/equality_and_diversity/698/gypsies_roma_and_travellers)

” The work of the Roma and Travellers Division contributes to promoting and protecting the rights of Roma and Travellers in Council of Europe member States and to fostering equal opportunities, diversity and social inclusion by fighting discrimination and antigypsyism.”(https://www.coe.int/en/web/roma-and-travellers#:~:text=The%20work%20of%20the%20Roma,by%20fighting%20discrimination%20and%20antigypsyism.)

”The term ‘Gypsies and Travellers’ is used to refer to a range of ethnic and cultural groups in the UK. The term ‘Roma’ is generally used by people of Roma origin who have migrated to the UK more recently.”(https://www.coe.int/en/web/roma-and-travellers/about-us)

EggplantSandwich (talk) 10:32, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

None of this contradicts the use of the term "indigenous gypsies". It is really widely used by government bodies and the source we are quoting.Boynamedsue (talk) 10:42, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

You have not demonstrated that it is widely used. EggplantSandwich (talk) 08:09, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

• The Welsh Government uses the phrase ‘indigenous Gypsies and Travellers’ to refer to Romani Gypsies, Irish Travellers and other groups with a cultural tradition of nomadism or of living in caravans, who are native to Wales. Welsh Government.

• This lack of consideration of the particularities of Romani experience and needs is due to the application by the UK government of EU policies on Romani inclusion that have incorporated indigenous Gypsies and Travellers with migrant Roma (and 14 other uses) Zoe James, Critical Romani Studies, Roma, Gypsies, and Travellers As a Community of Difference.
• A ground-breaking investigation of the dynamic social, cultural and political forces which have impacted on the vast majority of indigenous Gypsies and Travellers in the UK in modern times.Journal of Social Policy
• he focus of our work in the UK is on members of the recently arrived Roma communities of Eastern European origin though we collaborate with UK based organisations which promote the rights of UK indigenous Gypsies and Travellers. Roma Education Support Trust's submission to the British parliament.
• Both indigenous Gypsies and Travellers and Roma from CEE fare poorly in terms of health (i.e. higher mortality rate than the general population) as well as lower school attendance and educational outcomes than any other ethnic group. (+3 other uses) European Agency for Fundamental Rights.
• 'Romanichal’ is rarely used by gorja writers writing about Gypsies/Romanies and may help when writing specifically about Britain (for instance when writing about indigenous Gypsies as opposed to Greek or French or other European Gypsies who have migrated to or via Britain). Summary of University of Huddersfield symposium on Gypsies and Travellers.
• The situation of Roma is quite different in many ways from that of indigenous Gypsy and Traveller groups in the UK - the Roma families share histories of structural persecution but largely see UK society as representing lower levels of discrimination than in their countries of origin and believe the general standard of schooling, health and social care in the UK is often far superior.Including the Missing Voices of Disabled People inGypsy, Roma and Traveller Communities, Dr Peter Unwin et al.

There are hundreds and hundreds more usages on the internet from academic sources, it is clearly a relevant and widely-used phrase intended to distinguish established groups from recent migrants. Boynamedsue (talk) 10:42, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Although the term "indigenous gypsies" is sometimes used, the non-indigenous origins of gypsies are often acknowledged in reference to GRT. See this paper this paper and this publication by Bournemouth University which imply that gypsies are not currently recognised as indigenous.213.86.118.13 (talk) 17:22, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Those sources do not contradict the use of indigenous in the source. Indigenous in this case does not relate to "indigenous people", as in people native to a place prior to colonisation.Boynamedsue (talk) 18:33, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Just to clarify, that is actually the same paper, so it is one source, and the paper draws the conclusion that Using the cultural distinctiveness and difference criteria set by the United Nations we argue that Gypsy Roma Traveller communities could, therefore, be identified as indigenous. There are two dictionary meanings of "indigenous", the first is originating or occurring naturally in a particular place; native., this definition is the one used by our sources, and the hundreds of others available. The one used by the above paper is given by Oxford dictionaries as inhabiting or existing in a land from the earliest times or from before the arrival of colonists., but I feel much more complex definitions are possible. English and Welsh Gypsies are only arguably so.Boynamedsue (talk) 19:47, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Organisation of the Scottish Gypsies section

An edit has been made which eliminates the term "Scottish border Travellers" and replaces it with "Scottish Lowland Gypsies". The section was sourced to Mayall and Acton-Mundy, who both use the term "Scottish Border Travellers". Baffling edit, seems to be sourced to wikipedia. Various aspects of Scottish Gypsy Travellers section have been split between the two sections will-nilly. Reasoning based on sources neededBoynamedsue (talk) 07:36, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Scottish Border Gypsies and Scottish Lowland Gypsies have a different history. Scottish Border Gypsies emerged from Romanichal who settled at the Scottish border. Scottish Lowland Gypsies emerged from Roma and indigenous Scottish travellers in the Scottish Lowlands. EggplantSandwich (talk) 09:12, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

This is not what the sources on the article say.Boynamedsue (talk) 09:38, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Deletion of the massive number of terms for gorger

Sources on GRT people frequently use the term "gorger" and very occasionally the term gadjo. None of the other terms are mentioned when discussing it in terms of GRT in the UK. Only "gorja" is WP:DUEBoynamedsue (talk) 07:36, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

The linguistic variations of the term are included to account for usage amongst Romani migrants. EggplantSandwich (talk) 09:25, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Still not due, unless sourced to an article about UK GRT.Boynamedsue (talk) 09:37, 1 September 2024 (UTC)