Talk:Great Horde

merge with jÜz?

I don't think so. Is someone (bot?) confusing jÜz with horde? Orda (English Horde) is general Turkic for war-band or proto-state. JÜz (=hundred), often translated as horde, is one of the three divisions of the Kazakhs. Olcott says that horde implies consanguinity while zhuz can be a temporary military union and that there were other short-lived zhuzes in the sixteenth century - a distinction that is not meaningful to outsiders. There is some reason to replace the obscure and unpronouncible jÜz with horde, but not the reverse as far as I can see. This article matches all the published sources I have. Benjamin Trovato (talk) 23:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, then someone thought this merge would be useful because one of the Jüz is considered the descendants of the Great Horde. I think this is misleaded. Articles should be merged if they cover the same topic, or if one is a minor subtopic. If anything, it would make more sense to merge with Golden Horde, because the Great Horde is a real subset of that one. But then, given that the article is entirely unsources, it is not clear if there is anything that is actually worth merging, or if it should rather be deleted. --Latebird (talk) 07:24, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Grootsi, or whatever it is. I think I have enough books to update this one, but I want to fix the Nogais first. Golden Horde split into 5 pieces, each with its own history. Great Horde was the steppe remnant that claimed to be the real thing.Benjamin Trovato (talk) 04:31, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Akhmat vs. Ahmad

Although I'm unable to check for accuracy, the rewrite looks much better than the old version. There's just one thing that confuses me. On first reading, I glanced over the formal difference between Akhmat Khan and "Sheikh Ahmad Khan". That made the text read as if the same person were still very much in charge even after his death. Maybe it can be explained somehow who the latter one actually is, why he is given redundant titles (both Sheihk and Khan), and why the names are so similar? --Latebird (talk) 07:22, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Recent edits

@Roniius: first thanks for your edits but there are some problems.

1. That flag belongs to the period of Uzbeg khan, the reason why that remains on the Golden Horde page because it is probably the single documented flag. So removing this.

2. The khan list is a bit dubious. I searched "Murtaza Khan" on google, didn't find any reliable source. Plus Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a reliable source. And I don't think usurpers like Ibak khan should be considered Great Horde khan since they were khans of their own state.

3. Middle Mongol was totally abandoned until then. No indication or proof last Golden Horde khans wrote in Mongol.

4. The Great Horde wasn't founded in 1433. Whoever said that is solely wrong.

Waiting for your reply. Beshogur (talk) 13:00, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

@Beshogur: Hello and thank you for your edits on the page. To address your problems - for the first one, I see your point and I agree. For the second point, Murtaza, according to Howorth's account of differing historical accounts, was Ahmed Khan's son and the brother of Sheikh Ahmed, and one of the main leaders within the Horde and one of the main ones that were agitating against the Crimeans. He was based in Kaffa (Feodosia) on Crimea for a while. I do see your point about removing him from the list of Khans, but he should at least get a mention there as one of the main leaders of the polity during the reign of Sheikh Ahmed (There is another Murtaza Khan, the son of Ibak, but he was only relevant after 1502). As for Ibak himself, if he were to be removed from the list of Khans, he should at least receive a mention in the article elsewhere as a pretender. For the language issue, that is fine. As for the founding of the Great Horde, from what I've read, there is one source that cites it as 1433 (a Russian source, if that is relevant to the discussion). However, most of the sources I've seen that talk about the creation of the idea of the "Great Horde" mention it not as a set date, but as a process as the greater Golden Horde crumbled. Baumer, in his History of Central Asia, talks about the label of "Great Horde" as only coming about due to the immense turmoil within the Horde until the 1460s, without ascribing any exact date to it. Vásáry says that the name "Great Horde" came about first as just a way to differentiate the horde in Sarai from the other polities in the area, again without really ascribing a date. I would like to propose that, on the date matter, the Great Horde have no real start date, and to just be referred to as a period within the history of the Golden Horde after its disintegration that started within the 15th century. If there are any other sources that comment on this question, I would gladly want to look at them. Roniius (talk) 15:38, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Have just seen Baumer's list of Khans of the Great Horde (Page 556 of his History of Central Asia. What is notable is that he puts the start date as ca. 1466 here, which is different from what I read elsewhere in his book). His list goes like so: Küchük Muhammad (1435-1459), Mahmud (1459-1465), Ahmad (1465-1481), Murtaza as co-ruler with Sheikh Ahmed (1481-1498, with Murtaza reigning only up to 1499 and Sheikh Ahmed reigning until 1502). Hopefully that serves as a better list of Khans. Roniius (talk) 15:44, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Thinking about it more (Sorry for all of this, I just like to talk before I think), perhaps we could come up with some sort of a cross between the two dates provided within the article and replace the dates with circa 1460s or 1460? There is no definite date used by all sources, so an estimation, I think, would be fitting. Roniius (talk) 15:49, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

@Roniius: that list seems reasonable. I guess we can use 1435, but still confused about other two dates. I do not know what to do. Maybe just start as c. 15th century as you said, and from Küchük Muhammed. Beshogur (talk) 17:48, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

@Beshogur: That sounds good. I recommend that we also add Seyyid Ahmed I to the Khan list. Roniius (talk) 02:04, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

@Roniius: seems ok for me. Beshogur (talk) 10:56, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Date of establishment

There are four dates that this article uses to describe the start of the khanate. 1. The start of the rule of the first khan of the Great Horde (in 1435, although his article states that he was khan of the Golden Horde in 1433, i guess the two were different political entities), 2. 1466, which is what the short description states, 3. "1430s" as in the Joint rule of Küchük Muhammad and Sayid Ahmad I sub-section in the Decline of the Great Horde section, and 4. 15th century (more specifically the mid-15th century) Some of them may not be even considered the starting dates on paper, but what is clear is that something is wrong. Suasufzeb (talk) 04:01, 9 August 2022 (UTC)