Talk:German Shorthaired Pointer

Unencyclopedic

This article, particularly the section on temperament, is extremely unencyclopedic. I removed the most extreme, eyeroll-inducing example, "Even when these dogs are elderly they still act like puppies!". Can someone re-write the article? Many citations are done incorrectly as well. 67.142.130.19 (talk) 00:56, 25 May 2009 (UTC) !!!

Presentations

Someone removed all the presentations and added a very unencyclopedic picture of two dogs (although cute) with christmas ornaments. Thanks to whoever fixed that. Whoever has done this change has also COMPLETELY removed the rest of the presentations. Can someone please fix that?--Spincrus (talk) 05:33, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Lead rewrite

The current lead is not general--it's mostly about specific details, such as eye color and where to dock the tail. I suggest a complete lead rewrite in order to fit WP:LEAD
--Oeoi (talk) 23:44, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

German Shorthaired Pointer

The opening section of the article on German Shorthaired Pointers (GSP) should be expanded to include the German Registry and its name and qualifications for the Deutsch Kurzhaar (DK) breed. A citation that would simplify the expansion could be the North American Deutsch Kurzhaar Club, http://www.nadkc.org/index.html Basically, GSPs originated with DKs that were imported into the United States and eventually recognized by the American Kennel Club as 'pointers.' In fact, DKs are not truly pointers, but instead and unlike English Pointers, are 'versatile hunting dogs,' that retrieve on land and water, track scent and blood trails and pursue vermin, in addition to their naturally tendency to point at any game. The difference between GSP and DK lies with the registration programs - AKC in the US and Canada and the German hunting federation (FCI) and its DKV (DK breed club) which controls the registration of DKs. All true DKs are registered in the German program, which has strict breeding qualifications for brood bitches as well as for stud dogs. For example, to qualify for breeding, a dog must pass at least one advanced hunting test, be adjudged "good" coat and conformation (cannot have faults such as bad bite, gun shyness, incorrect size, poor conformation) and must have hip X-rays submitted to the German registry and been approved "Hip Dysplasia Free" as evaluated by the DKV (x-ray sent to Germany). Another odd difference between AKC GSPs and DKs is that, although DKs were recognized in Germany 100+ years before the AKC recognized the breed and DKs can be black and white, as well as liver and white, the AKC does not recognize black and white GSPs for shows and trials.

The above post was placed on the Project Dogs page, probably by accident, copied to here. Regards, William Harris • WikiProject Dogs • talk • 19:58, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

References

I've done a bit of cleaning up of this page. I'm thinking of trying to doing a bit more to it, including adding some proper independent reliable sources, expanding the text and editing for neutral encyclopaedic tone. If I were to do so I would change the reference format to the list-defined system – references defined in the reference section, not in the text – and to hand-written refs (without cite templates). I'll probably do that in a day or two if no-one minds, but will of course leave well alone if there's any objection. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:09, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Black roan

@Justlettersandnumbers isn't black accepted by the FCI standard? It states 'Black colour in the same nuances as the brown, respectively the brown roan colours' as an acceptable colour. It also mentions black roan when discussing nose colour. Traumnovelle (talk) 19:45, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Well, Traumnovelle, I wondered about that – the translation of the breed standard is so poor that it's not clear whether solid black is admissible or not (I read it to mean that black roan is admissible in dark and light variants). The Lehari book says (page 84) "Schwarz in denselben Kombinationen wie Braun", which suggests that solid black and also white with black head and patches or flecks are acceptable. Do you see any other reliable source for the German/international standard? – I can't get pages 524-525 of the Raber book, which would presumably cover this. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:58, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

The only source I looked at was the FCI. It's a bit vague because it says in the same nuances as brown which would include solid black as solid brown is allowed, but it says 'respectively roan colours' and only references black roan without mention of solid black where presumably solid black would be relevant (the section about nose colour). Traumnovelle (talk) 22:06, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

So, Traumnovelle, as you've seen I've revised that material. Does it now accord with your reading of the sources? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 08:49, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, thank you for that. Traumnovelle (talk) 08:55, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Companion dog

No kind of German pointer should ever be kept as a companion dog, therefore I highly recommend leaving that nonsense out of the opening paragraph. They're proper gun dogs, and in Germany, no breeder will even sell one to you unless you're planning to hunt with them. Same goes for English pointers too, by the way. 2A02:8071:884:DB00:2028:72DD:70D0:E56 (talk) 17:20, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Any breed can be kept as a companion dog. I've seen plenty of pointers as companion animals in my work and they were all of fine temperament. Traumnovelle (talk) 19:04, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Most breeds were bred for a purpose other than being a companion dog. For many breeds, the purpose "companion dog" became an additional breeding goal over time (like with Labrador Retrievers). But for many breeds, hunting/guarding/... is still the main purpose and dogs are specifically bred for that purpose to this day. And no, some breeds do NOT make good companion dogs AT ALL. Take most lifestock guardian dogs, for example. They want to protect your farm or sheep - they will not be happy as mere pets without a task. Doesn't mean you CAN'T keep them like that, it means you SHOULDN'T. Anyone who recommends working breeds as pets is irresponsible to put it mildly. Yes, I know a perfectly sweet rescue lgd who lives in a flat with no garden. But even the owner knows that even though this is what she can offer him, it's not ideal for his nature.

And out of every breed of gun dog there is, pointers are actually the ones least suited as companion dogs. That doesn't mean they can't have a sweet demeanour - sweetness has actually been a breeding goal from day one too for these dogs. But they need a task. At the very least, that needs to be agility or something like that. But in breed descriptions over here in Germany (where the dogs are literally from) there's almost always a note "this dog will not be happy unless they can live their passion of hunting." As I said, a respectable German breeder will not even sell a pup to you unless you're going to hunt with them.

If you want to continue this debate, I recommend taking it up with one of them since they certainly know what they're talking about (I'm not a hunter and I have never trained a pointer, only a Jack Russell Terrier).

And with all due respect, "I know many sweet dogs" is not an argument. Especially since you don't give any background. How did the owners raise them? What kind of activities did they do with the dogs to utilize their energy? Just because YOU have seen them doesn't mean it should generally be recommended. Don't take away from a dog their very passion which is almost literally in their blood.

Here's a couple of examples from Germany:

"Unser wunderschöner vielversprechender schwarzschimmel Rüde (Arthos), sucht ab sofort sein jagdliches Zuhause." (they're looking for a "hunting" home for their male pup)

"Wir erwarten aus der Verbindung formschöne, lautjagende, wasserfreudige und wildscharfe Nachkommen." (they're expecting their pups to be beautiful, "loudly hunting", ready to go into water, and "sharp" or "keen" on game)

"Wir erwarten daher einen vielversprechenden Wurf dessen Nachkommen wasserfreudige, formschöne, passionierte, apportierfreudige, wesensfeste und leistungsstarke Jagdhelfer werden." (they're expecting the pups to be ready to go into water, beautiful, passionate, ready to retrieve, of a steady character, high-performing "hunting helpers")

"Aus unserem B Wurf gewölft am 22.04.24

sucht noch eine schwarze Hündin ein jagdliches Zuhause." (Their female pup from this April is still looking for a "hunting" home)

"Cody vom Schadenwald sucht noch ein neues Zuhause.

Er hat eine tolle Wasserpassion und ist täglich mit im Revier." ("Cody vom Schadenwald" is looking for a new home. He has a passion for water and accompanies his current owners to the hunting grounds on a daily basis)

"Die Welpen werden nur an aktive Jäger mit Familienanschluss abgegeben, welche eine solide Ausbildung garantieren. Keine Abgabe an reine Zwingerhaltung." (They will only sell the pups to hunters who guarantee a solid training. No keeping in a kennel only).

All of these come from this website: http://www.deutsch-kurzhaar.de/dk-zucht.htm

Excuse my long reply. But this is an important matter to me. I see far too many irresponsible dog owners who completely unknowingly torture their dogs by not training them right, not giving them enough tasks etc. There is far too little education going on before getting to own a dog. Since Wikipedia is often the first address people look at when researching a specific dog breed, I consider it irresponsible to have the words "companion dog" in the very first paragraph. There should be a little bit of information in a later paragraph, such as: "Under specific circumstances, a GSP may be held as a companion dog, but they need a fullfilling task as a replacement for hunting." (Obviously put into words differently - I'm clearly not a native speaker. But you get the point.) 147.142.77.238 (talk) 10:51, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, IP editor! Opinions on this in Germany are clearly very different from those in some other countries, and – as this is a German dog – this should certainly be documented in the article (as it now is here, for example). But this would need sources better than those for-sale advertisements. Can you point me to any solid reliable source that discusses the use(s) of the dogs in their homeland? Thanks, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:40, 24 October 2024 (UTC) (PS I've been keeping large flock guardian dogs as companions for over forty years with only a few over-defensiveness problems)