Talk:English people/Archive 4

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Archive 1

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Genetic research is evolving so fast that new discoveries are tantalizing, in many cases shattering in relation to views held until now. I have noticed that this article misses crucial information that is being published now as a result of the revolution in genetic research, here you have some interesting links:

1. haplogroup R1b

2. https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html?card=my050

3. http://www.worldfamilies.net/Tools/r1b_ydna_in_europe.htm

HCC

Linguistically speaking, both Welsh and English are better understood as Creoles - Celtic/Romance and Germanic/Romance respectively. How familiar are you with Welsh, by the way? How come almost all its vocabulary is Latin? TharkunColl 11:15, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Historically at some point perhaps they may well have been accurately described as Creoles - although if we were to class all languages that have undergone a great deal of change under the influence of another there would be far fewer 'languages' and far more 'Creoles', but to do so now simply doesn’t make sense. I’m familiar enough with Welsh to scoff at your silly attempts at insinuating some kind of superiority and as for the influence of Latin - as a result of the Roman conquest and rule as you well know. I happily invite you to start up a topic on the Welsh language and English language talk pages regarding their seemingly correct designations as Celtic/Romance and Germanic/Romance Creoles as these places are where you really should be putting forward such opinions. An Siarach

It may be that the native British language (whether it was Celtic or not) was totally replaced by a Latin derived language as in the rest of the Western Empire, and that modern Welsh is a mixture of this, and Irish - the Irish conquered and settled in large areas of western Britain at the same time as the Anglo-Saxons in the east. But my point is simply to refute notions that there is any such thing as a "Celtic" or "Germanic" race, as you suggested earlier. TharkunColl 11:35, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

You’d be hard pressed to find me saying anywhere that there is a Celtic or a Germanic race as I've said no such thing. There are however Celtic and Germanic races - people with origins in the original Celtic and Germanic groups. As for your theories regarding the possible replacement of the British language ( which was Celtic, I’ve NEVER seen anyone dispute this ) by a Latin language which then formed Welsh in combination with early Gaelic - I’ve never come across anyone putting forward this rather incredible theory. The Gaels settled North West Britain and had some very small, and very short-lived, enclaves in Wales/England. Quite simply the ideas you’ve put forward are quite incredible and totally new to me and I don’t think it would be presumptuous of me to say they would be incredible and new to most people with a knowledge of the relevant periods, peoples and languages. An Siarach

I’m not sure what you mean with ‘’short lived enclaves’’ in England and Wales. They didn’t up and leave, they can’t have. They might have become absorbed or dominated by the Norwegians in Cumbria (a new theory I’ve read recently is that the Angles hardly got a foot into Cumbria at all) but traces of their presence remains, and North Wales has always been a target for Irish migration, starting who knows when. I am sure too that there were Celtic races but that is achronistic (is that the word or the context?) or rather is not the case today. I’m not even sure that ‘race’ is the right word. Tribe, perhaps? The Celtic speaking peoples wouldn’t have seen each other as somehow kin as opposed to Germanic speakers – they were all different tribes. The Brythons of Britain had as much to contend with from the Irish than they did from the Teutons, and both of the latter invaded and settled in Britain driving out the native culture (but hardly the people). If you want to say that the English are a Germanic people and the Welsh and Scottish aren’t, the ONLY basis for this is that they live in a country (which is part of a larger, older country) named for a Germanic tribe whence comes a Germanic language. Culture, blood, identity – it’s all British and wonderfully indigenous Enzedbrit 00:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi An Siarach, can you reconcile these two posts of yours I’ve pointed out before how totally meaningless it is do take Genetics as something far more important than it is and The English are Germanic - their language, origins, race are all Germanic. The English are not racially Germanic (how can you claim this while also saying that Genetics is not important, you are contradicting yourself), they are a mixture of an immigrating Germanic people and indigenous people (it is absurd to talk of Celtic people, there is no evidence that peoples speaking Celtic languages formed any sort of homogeneous cultural or racial group), English culture is also a mixture of indigenous and immigrating people. Most archaeologists see continuity in the archaeological record, and Genetic studies (and it is you who have made the point about race, you cannot have it both ways) confirm that all the peoples of the British Isles have an indigenous genetic component. Invasionist theories are out of date, and probably wrong. To try to claim that the English are exclusively Germanic (and I use the word advisedly as an adjective of German) and somehow racially and culturally distinct from the indigenous population of the rest of Great Britain is to ignore the facts. This is an English people article, these articles are based on Ethnicity. I think that it is totally inappropriate and incorrect to make racial claims. Alun 12:10, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I do not contradict myself. I express a personal opinion that genetics is of no great importance and then point out a factor relating to genetics that most would find pertinent with regard to this topic ( but which I happen not to consider of any direct significance). It is not absurd to talk of a Celtic people. The fact that they formed no real unified group ( and it is absolutely absurd to say they did not form a cultural group - this is precisely what they were and even those coming out with the tired old "they never called themselves Celts" tripe accept this as fact - and argue that this is all that they were ). The English are predominately Germanic and hence a Germanic people - influence from Romance or Celtic cultures cannot change this. They are culturally distinct( or at least were until some 50-100 years ago when the last enclaves of Welsh/Irish/Scottish(which is to say Gaelic) culture and language fell to the spread of anglicization/modernizaiton) from the other inhabitants of Great Britain ( and to avoid confusion in this context "English" covers all the English speaking peoples regardless of where they may be ). As for the last bit regarding 'racial claims' well I’ve cleared up your misunderstanding over my use of the word - which is based entirely in the historical context - and I couldn’t give a two figs over race or genetics as they have no direct bearing on ones language and culture - which are the only meaningful markers of ethnicity. An Siarach

The English weren’t culturally distinct 100 years ago or even long before and never have been. My favourite example – as I’m sure you’re all aware! – is my mother’s Northumbria. Their dialect, dress and outlook has always been far more aligned with southern Scotland than southern England. The English west country is highly distinct from the north, the western Midlands are from East Anglia, and so on. Are these all Germanic cultures compared with a Celtic culture into Wales and Scotland? No, they’re not. English speaking people in Britain have been the majority of Scotland and Wales (and Ireland) for centuries. If we are to discuss genetics, the differences between the English, Welsh and Scottish are so minimal when compared with other ethnic groups spread out in large countries that they lose much of their distinctiveness, except of course for a few inbred individuals in pockets of north Wales, Yorkshire and the western Isles. Enzedbrit 00:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I think you are just expressing your opinions as if they were solid facts. In the end it is of little significance. What counts on wikipedia is verifiability and neutrality, this means that you have to accept that other people will have a different POV to you, as long as they can verify it you have no right to exclude it from an article. I do not know what source you are using to claim that the English are predominantly Germanic, can you provide one? Your criteria for making the distinction seem to vary, you refered me to the Germanic people page yesterday, but this just lists people who speak Teutonic languages, it has no relevance to ethnicity. and it is absolutely absurd to say they did not form a cultural group - this is precisely what they were and even those coming out with the tired old "they never called themselves Celts" tripe accept this as fact. I do not accept this as a fact, no one can prove this, this is just a theory, there is no consensus in the archaeological community, and it is just wrong to claim there is. Alun 12:48, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Amusingly, what I am expressing (other than my already admitted and clearly stated POV on genetics) is the orthodox opinion expressed in the very articles dealing with the topics on Wikipedia and in the wider communities dealing with each area respectively. An Siarach

Thank you for admitting that you are expressing orthodox opinion and not fact. Please accept that other opinions exist that are equally valid and have as much right to be expressed here as the outdated. Alun 16:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Here's Francis Pryor as a source, to support what I say about other points of view Simon James has cojently argued that the Celts themselves probably never existed as a distinct cultural entity. I take it you will aknowledge this as a reliable source. Alun 17:23, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I see that the problem here lies in mixing different concepts:

1. Language cannot be confused with "race", if we may still use this term.

2. Concepts like Celtic or Germanic are related to languages, which they take as the main reference.

3. Ferdinand de Saussure, the most prominent linguist of the 19th century and father of European Structural Linguistics, already pointed it out in his Cours de Linguistique General.

4. In the 21st century this has already become very clear, in fact we can take four European languages as an example:

French: France and Haiti.

English: Britain and Jamaica.

Spanish: Spain and Guatemala.

Portuguese: Portugal and Angola.

According to the ethnic concept based on language we could consider the Haitians French, Jamaicans English, Guatemalans Spanish and Angolans Portuguese.

That concept is perfectly possible, but linguistic ancestry cannot be confused with genetic ancestry. Obviously, according to genetic acestry those populations would be classified in other groups with peoples that do not speak their languages.

And I do think that genetic research is important, in fact, very important to trace back population movements. Until now no such powerful tool was available, now it is. An it is important because it helps also shape history. For example, it was widly believed that the English were predonminantly Anglo-Saxon not only because of their language, but also because they could trace back their ancestry (genetic ancestry, by the way, which means from father to son all the way down) predominantly to the Anglo-Saxons, and it was also believed that the original inhabitants of the British Isles had been exterminated or almost exterminated. Now all those theories are being proven wrong precisely by genetic research.

Anyway, it is understandable that these new findings will take some time to assimilate, because they are so different to what was thought until now, and they may create a conflict in the feelings of identity of many people. HCC.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.144.248.169 (talk • contribs)

I think you have hit the nail firmly on the head. Alun 16:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think that the article underplays a little all these new findings. It should be noted that they are based primarily on the Genographic Project by National Geographic. I think that up to now no individual, team or university has come even close to the magnitude of the work that is being done in this project, with the possible exception of Cavalli-Sforza, but I think that the Genographic Project is even larger in scope. HCC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.144.248.169 (talk • contribs)

There ia also a cultural element to ethnicity that needs to be addressed, but much of this discussion seems to be people just expressing opinions with no real debate. I don't understand the claim that English culture is Germanic and somehow different to Welsh and Scottish culture, I also do not see any great similarities between Scottish and Welsh culture, except for those that they also share with the English. I think it would be better to discuss the sources of peoples POVs and try to come to a consensus on how to incorporate all points of view. There is clearly a POV that somehow English people are ethnically Germanic and distinct from the rest of the people of Great Britain, I personally find this difficult to believe. Even if one does subscribe to this POV then one has to accept that British/English people have shared the same Island for over a millenium and a half, and the claim that some sort of ethnic apartheid occured during these centuries doesn't strike me as very believable. Nevertheless I am prepared to accept that this is a valid POV, contingent on properly verified sources. There is also the question of Scots, which is also a Teutonic language, so should we consider the speakers of Scots Germanic as well? If one accepts that the English are the descendants of the indigenous British inhabitants of Great Britain (which they are) and also of some immigrating people (who possibly but not certainly constituted an invading force), that the observed cultural change introduced by the Anglo-Saxons may just have equally been introduced by cultural diffusion over several centuries (and no one disputes that there was some migration, but Danes settled in the Danelaw at the end of the nineth century, and there certainly doesn't seem to have been any great displacement of indigenous people) and that the English language is not necessarily an indication of mass migration or a rapid cultural change, then it is also a reasonable point of view that the indigenous culture changed over time (as it had in previous times). Most archaeologists now point to greater continuity rather than any rapid change. From a linguistic point of view Welsh serves as a good example here, at the start of the 20th century the vast majority of people spoke Welsh as a first language in Wales, indeed immigrating English people who came to work in the heavy industries of South Wales in the nineteenth century had to learn Welsh. By the 1940s Welsh was a minority language. In A History of Wales John Davies argues that the Welsh gave up speaking Welsh voluntarily. He reasons that the internationalist nature of Socialism (strong in Wales) and the progressive nature of Non-conformists led to a consensus that language could be a barrier. He also argues that there is no evidence that coercive measures like the Welsh not had any significant impact. No one is arguing that there was a mass migration in Wales at the beggining of the 20th century, nor is anyone arguing that Welsh people gave up their identity or culture, they just stopped speaking Welsh. Alun 05:57, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

There were Germanic speakers in England throughout the Roman occupation, often serving in the armed forces. In particular, since the time of Carausius at the latest, large numbers of Saxons were settled along the south and east coasts (see Count of the Saxon Shore). It was in these exact same areas that kingdoms describing themselves as Saxon emerged in the Dark Ages (Wessex, Sussex, Essex, etc.). Carausius himself was a native of the Rhine area and so would have been sympathetic to neighbouring peoples such as the Saxons and Frisians. This, I suggest, is the true origin of the English language in Britain. TharkunColl 08:22, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a reasonable hypothesis. Is there a supporting source? If there is then it might good to include this information in Anglo-Saxons and Sub-Roman Britain. Unfortunatelly it is not wikipedia policy to include original research, and so edits must be based on published material, so a source for this would be very good to have, it would add nice balance.Alun 10:39, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

It's mentioned in the Oxford History of England series - Myers, The English Settlements. Also check out the volumes by Salway, Roman Britain (for Carausius) and Stenton, Anglo-Saxon England. Another interesting source is Pryor, Britain AD, who disputes the idea of any sort of Anglo-Saxon invasion at all (even of just a warrior elite). TharkunColl 12:50, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I’ve not doubt that there were Germanic speakers during the Roman occupation and it’s good to see some sources for this! Thank you. Surely though they would have been all over the Roman territory of Britain? Enzedbrit 00:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Great, I'm reading Britain BC at the moment and have a copy of Britain AD waiting to be read. I'm keen to include some sources other than genetic ones in the pages, as some of the historians there seem to be suspicious of my edits regarding the genetic research (my degree is in genetics so I have been trying to remedy some of the groser distortions of the findings). There seem to be a lot of historians on these two pages, but few biologists or archaeologists. Genetics and archaeology seem to concur on this, it's the historcal sources (written much later and by undisputably biased people like Bede) that seem to get most of the attention. It might be worth including some of this stuff in Immigration to the United Kingdom as there is a lot of stuff on pre-historical invasions there also. Thanks for the sources. Alun 16:17, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

British pages

You state that ethnicity is 100% related to appearance. This is utter bollox. Most Maori in New Zealand are fair skinned and resemble Europeans, the same with many Native Americans. Some white people identify as black and vice versa, or Asian, or Indian. Enzedbrit 21:13, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

First, there is no need to be offensive when making a reply. You have posited several straw men. First you deliberately misquoted me by claiming I said: "ethnicity is 100% related to appearance", when what I actually wrote was "appearance is 100% related to ethnicity". Also, the entry was about the ethnic English, not "British pages". Your protest is a straw man, because no one stated that only the English have light skin, as you appear to be claiming. The ethnic English are predominantly descended from Anglo-Saxons and some small mix with Celtic, and Normans etc., but all are light skinned northern European in appearance, not Negro, Asiatic, or other brown Aboriginals etc., so simply stating in the intro that they are 'light skinned northern European', is completely accurate.

Please remember that article is about ethnicity, not nationality or citizenship—ethnicity is your genetic bloodline but nationality/citizenship is your passport. I've yet to see a native American that looks like an English person as you imply, but even if they did it would be totally irrelevant because the English would still be light skinned regardless of who else on the planet also has fair skin. You state: "Some white people identify as black." I really don't see what such comment are going to achieve, some dogs think they are cats or humans, some humans think they are Jesus or Moses, but none of that has anything to do with their factual ethnic inheritance, so why are you muddying the waters with such irrelevant material, maybe you should post your claims under a mental illness article? Where do you think humans get their ethnic features from if they are not inherited from their parents? Of course, our physical appearance is 100% related to our ethnicity, we are only the sum of our parent's genes and their ancestors. I really don't know why you made such a bit fuss about such a small accurate entry, and saw the need post straw men arguments. My post was concise and totally accurate. If you have any valid arguments then make them, but please refrain from vandalising other's posts, especially when you have given no good reason. Would you like it if everyone did that to your posts? Zenjin 17:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

You're quite paranoid. Stating something is utter bollox is not being offensive nor is debating on your talk page vandalising your page. Don't make such accusations. Nor are the English predominately descended from Anglo-Saxons, but rather ancient Britons. Please consult modern findings which support this, not Victorian ideas of racial purity. Ethnicity is not 100% related to appearance. Ones appearance might be an indicator of their ethnicity but not always. Being a member of a certain ethnic group can suppose ones physical appearance but not always. Stating the English are a fair skinned northern European ethnic group is a stereotype and is false. Enzedbrit 20:56, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Some white people do identify as black. This isn't muddying waters or being irrelevant. You don't understand the complexities of subjective categorisation nor of ethnic identity. If you have a black parent and a white one, and in this instance the white parent has never been in the picture, and you look white, but identify as black, that is everything to do with ethnic heritage. The world is not black and white. By talking about cats thinking they're dogs, you are demonstrating your ignorance with regards to the subject that you're editing, and such fobbing off of the subject to me shows you could be quite racist yourself Enzedbrit 20:59, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

1. Calling me ad hominem names like 'paranoid' will not validate your false arguments. 2. Your straw man about my 'personal page' is also incorrect; my vandalising comment was clearly about the article page, not my page. 3. White/light skinned Anglo-Saxons and white/light skinned; Celtic are all white/light skinned, not Negro or brown skinned; again you desperately grasp at straws and fail to comprehend the blindingly obvious. 4. If ethnicity were not related to appearance then why do your comments contract all known scientific evidence? Maybe in your imagination if a light skinned man were raised on rice 'n' peas and jerk chicken he would develop a Negro completion along with an Afro and large lips? You need to lean about genetics my friend, as you are sadly in need of some accurate information on hereditary genes producing our ethnic appearance rather than possibly gangster rap, a fried chicken diet or multi-culti political delusions. 5. You claim the factual reality that English people are white is a "stereotype" is feeble and a non-argument, seeing as we all have eyes, and anyone living in England (you don't) can see the light/fair colour of skin of the natives all around them physically everyday, and see the large differences to African or Asian immigrants. Please note: A suntan is not classed as ethnicity, even in Australia!

6. If someone is mixed race, then they are mixed, not black or white, regardless of what they may affiliate with due to political leanings or ethnic black supremacist views etc., and none of that has anything to do with the physical genetic reality of what they are. If you wish to muddy the waters with your political views, then take that political material and post it under black supremacist or wherever, but please don't bastardise articles based on your own unscientific views, or your racial political identity opinions because you are totally off topic. 7. You post trite third grade quotes like "the world is not black or white", as if that has even remotely anything to do with it! People are black, white/light skinned, and everything in-between, but that does not somehow bastardise light skinned people or demand they are no longer allowed to have their skin tone mentioned, you appear to be promoting a racist anti-English, multicultural political agenda, which is not a NPOV, or factual at all, regardless of it possibly being due to your own highly confused ethnic background/identity and political leanings. PS. Please don't dump your stuff on my page again, if you wish to remove it from here, then post the lot on the Talk section of the ethnic English page because that is the subject. Thank you. Zenjin 09:24, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

1.Wow, you’re a real hypocrite. You have thrown some pretty nasty comments to me in your retort yet pack a sad about being called paranoid.

2. Removing your comment isn’t vandalising, it’s cleaning up graffiti. What are you on about with straw-man this and that?

3. I repeat - What ARE you ON about????

4. You have said that ethnicity is 100% related to appearance. I have negated that comment. You have said that if you are of a certain ethnicity then you must resemble a colourised view of that ethnicity and this is not true. Your comment about a Negro being raised on peas’n chicken makes no sense and isn’t even slightly related to what I was saying, and it’s also a comparison I find offensive – the fact you thought it necessary to bring in is worrying. You have not the right to tell someone how they should self-identify. That’s not PC or multi-cultural, it’s simple democratic fact. Scientific knowledge is also not related here. This isn’t about genetics or science or anything extra-worldy. This is about someone having the right to define their ethnicity based on what they know of themselves. It is about the right of someone to claim to be a Briton/English/Scottish/Welsh who is black, white, yellow, brown or red because of their heritage. It is racist and cruel to inflict the alternative, and it’s very akin to Hitler. He told millions of people that they weren’t Germans because they didn’t look right, and killed lots of them for it. The English people are predominately descended from the ancient Britons who were the first people to live in Britain and are the predominate ancestors too of the Scottish, Welsh and Irish. Were these people fair skinned? Probably, probably not. I have cousins who are just as pure-blood Britons like myself who have jet black hair, brown eyes and a very definite olive taint to their skin, and some would have us believe that this is the characteristic of the ancient Briton. So are they less British than me because they have a year around tan?

5. Why did you bring in Australia and suntanning? Australia, by the way, where thousands of Aboriginal people are white skinned, blonde haired and blue eyed – are you to tell them they must identify as ‘whites’? I don’t live in England? Congratulations, that means NOW’T mate! To assume an ethnicity based on physical appearance is not a sin – we all do it – but it isn’t solid gold fact. And how do you know that those African or Asian people aren’t half or ¾ British blood but happen to show more of their non-indigenous British ethnic heritage?

6.You’re very brave to want to tell someone that the must classify as mixed race. You are very much off-topic, and totalitarian. You’d do well in Turkmenistan or China – they do what they’re told as well. If someone has a black parent and a white one and has dark skin but identifies with their white side, whatever ethnic group it is, then that is their right. Labelling someone as solely mixed-race is quite out of fashion, and quite racist. Sure, people can identify that they have mixed heritage, but they have every right to identify with whatever aspect of their heritage they wish and IF they so wish to do so.

7.If anything, I am exceedingly pro-English and definitely pro-British. I have spent many moths on here defending English history from those that wish to strip it of any Celtic identity. What I am not going to do is tell someone that they can’t be English because they’re not white, no more than I could tell a Maori that because they are as pale and fair as I that they cannot be Maori. I know first hand how damaging labels can be. I have never felt so in-line with organisations such as the Runnymede Trust before, but you are one heck of a bigot. I am sure that you will find allies against my comments on these pages, yet rather than because they agree with you, it is because they don’t like me and would agree that black was blue if it meant an opposing view to Enzedbrit.

P.S. I shall ‘dump’ my stuff on your talk page if I shall so wish. It is not your possession but part of the Wikipedia forum. Your User Page I shall not touch, but if you are unhappy with public contributions to your talk page, then I suggest you withdraw your username in its entirety. Enzedbrit 11:13, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Most of your reply is not worth responding to due to its extremely low tone and its obsessive straw men that pop up every other sentence making obtuse links where they do not exist. Besides the lies and misquotes you write, your argumentation obviously has a massive ego and a political problem with reality, and you believe using any label is ok if one simply wants to, regardless of the physical reality involved. You are also massively confused between ethnicity (genetics) and nationality (a passport) an example of this absurdity is here: "It is about the right of someone to claim to be a Briton/English/Scottish/Welsh who is black, white, yellow, brown or red because of their heritage." As the saying goes: A cat born in a stable is not a horse, much less a pedigree racehorse. Someone of obvious Negro origin is clearly not ethnically (genetically) English, even if they do have a piece of card and paper called a British passport—that's Nationality to you, not ethnicity! Please learn that ethnicity is not a chosen option, it's a DNA based heritage, and the article is about the ethnic English not some political left-wing tripe about how someone Negro can be deluded into thinking they are white native English just because some minority worshipping, left-wing Anglo-phobic group may want to include them.

You should post your highly inaccurate and subjective opinions on a Marxist political page, not an ethnicity page. Mixed race people can call themselves what the heck they like, but that does not validate it as a genetic reality, and it has zero effect on the colour of the English peoples' skin. Again, for the umpteenth time, the article is about ethnicity, not political delusions of left-wing minority inclusives or minority supremacists. You are deluding you thoughts and political opinions for physical heritage. Why the heck can't you see the blindingly obvious difference? You may live in Australia, but are clearly blind to the fact that the English see their own every day in the millions and they are light skinned, not Negro or brown despite your Marxist political protestations. You also appear to have a problem with Anglo-Saxons with your obsession with "ancient Britons" and the Welsh. Besides the mountain of other off topic ineffectual material you wrote, it is all hopelessly irrelevant, as the ethnic English are quite obviously light skinned, just as are the ethnic Germans, Scandinavian and native Polish. You can wallow in your Anglo-phobic politics all you like deluding yourself that Kunta Kinte's second cousin was Queen Victorians mum, or whatever absurd political machinations and notions you may conjure up, but your denial of physical reality has clearly lost the plot. English people are light skinned/white northern Europeans, not Negro, brown aborigines, ethnic Japanese, or honey coloured Malaysians, no matter what political labels you can manufacturer. Just as a cat born in a stable is not a racehorse, although your politically correct stance seem to be anyone who calls it a 'cat' is a seething closet Nazi. LOL. Zenjin 11:55, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Ethnicity is not genetic, race is genetic. You seem to be hoplessly confused on this Zenjin. I suggest you go to the Ethnic group article and familiarise yourself with the concept. Here's a definition from the page An ethnic group is a human population whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry (Smith 1986) and this While ethnicity and race are related concepts (Abizadeh 2001), the concept of ethnicity is rooted in the idea of social groups, marked especially by shared nationality, tribal affiliation, religious faith, shared language, or cultural and traditional origins and backgrounds, whereas race is rooted in the idea of a biological classification of Homo sapiens according to chosen genotypic and/or phenotypic traits. Alun 05:40, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

After reading this interesting debate, and without getting into the subject matter, Zenjin is obviously the kind of racist bigot that should be isolated in Wikipedia. By the way, Zenjin, if you want to know about the genetic make up of the English, here you have an interesting map: http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf HCC 72.144.228.81 23:47, 14 April 2006

Ah yes, the abuse starts if anyone dares to contradict the Marxist multicultural propaganda by Enzedbrit who has now chosen to post under a sock puppet IP 72.144.228.81 to hurl his insults. I find it fascinating that ones like him will use communist abuse, threats and censorship tactics showing how desperate he is when someone dares to debate a subject that disagrees with his open multicultural bastardising propaganda, like calling me a "racist bigot", and "should be banned". Maybe your can sent me to the communist Gulag concentration camp, I'm sure a killing a few more that don't agree with you will not make that much difference to the 100 million killed under your communist leaders' political genocide schemes. PS. Just how does calling someone light skinned, 'light skinned' make someone "racist", especially when "race" according to some here is nothing to do with ethnicity anymore! LOL. Zenjin 09:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think calling people "racist", "Hitler" or "totalitarian" helps the debate about this article at all, it's just personal abuse. I think if the conclusion is that one does not have to be white to be ethnically English then shouldn't this be followed through by adding 'Pakistani', 'Indian' etc. to the 'related ethnic groups' box? Hundreds of thousands migrated from Pakistan and India to this country, it seems inconsistant to add 'Danish' and 'Dutch' but not those as well. Likewise for the 'religion' box.--Johnbull 01:21, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

It's for that very reason that I haven't called the user Hilter and have said that their comments are racist and totalitarian. Personal abuse is you're a poopoo head. What I have said isn't personal abuse. Stating that Indians and Pakistanis should be added if one does not have to be white to be English is answered elsewhere on here by Alun and I think you're being deliberately obtuse. Most English people will have white skin, but if you are born to mixed parentage, you shouldn't be obliged to not identify with one part of it because you are the wrong colour. Enzedbrit 05:22, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

You're not very good at telling the truth are you? Enzedbrit just said: "It's for that very reason that I haven't called the user Hilter [sic] and have said that their comments are racist. . ." Humm.. Lets look at another post by the same user: "It is racist and cruel to inflict the alternative, and it's very akin to Hitler. Enzedbrit 11:13, 13 April 2006 (UTC)", and under your sockpuppet: "Zenjin is obviously the kind of racist bigot that should be isolated in Wikipedia 72.144.228.81 23:47, 14 April 2006" What would that make you then? A communist genocidal maniac? So according to you, me calling a white person, "white", makes me like "Hitler"? LOL, I've heard it all now! You commies take the biscuit with your mind-bending propaganda bullshit. I bet you are so proud of Stalin, Mao Zedong and Pol Pot eh? Poor old Hitler being misused every two minutes as an insult to anyone who does not bow to bastardising multicultural radical Marxism, so sad. I can hear the Red Army coming now to get me at your orders. You can call me all the names you want, under a plethora of fake IPs and sock puppets, it just shows your lack of rational debate and your destructive political agenda, not to mention your lack of morals, but that's another area altogether. I'm saving that sick subject for another day and page. By the way, I challenge you to take a mongrel half-cross dog to Crufts and see if you can blag your way past the judges saying it's a "pedigree pure-breed English Border Collie". I'm sure when the go to throw you out of the building (after hysterically laughing in your face), you can hurl your "Nazi racist" abuse comments at them, but I doubt they will reclassify a half breed as a pure breed pedigree no matter how much you claim it's just a "Nazi fascist label". LOL. Maybe you can open a school and teach Sausage dogs and King Charles spaniels to be working sheep dogs? I mean you are assured success aren't you? There is not such thing as breed or genetics involved, so how can you possibly fail? LOL. Zenjin 09:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Great point, but the fact that some people are both ethnically English and ethnically Indian doesn't necessarily mean that the two ethnic groups are related, IMHO, it just means that some people identify with more than one culture.Alun 10:51, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you that we must be respectful. But just read some comments above. I think they are not acceptable. On the other hand, let's go back to the main issue and have a look at the map, because I think that if people here think that genetic lineage is most important in ethnicity then the article does not reflect very well the real lineage of the English. You cannot have it both ways. HCC.

Ethnicity is not based on genetics, anyone who claims that it is is mistaken, they are thinking of race, which is a different thing. Alun 13:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with User:Alun above. Most of the debate on this page is mistakenly around ancestry which is only incidental to ethnicity. "Englishness" derives from many diverse sources and influences. Lumos3 13:35, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that ethnicity is different from race, therefore a person who is black but who has been born in England and in her culture can be considered English as well. By the way, the number of people who are born into English culture and are coloured is significant. So, we have to be consistent, either we base the article on a cultural aspect or we base it on a genetic aspect. What is not acceptable is to base it on a cultural aspect when it suits some people and on a genetic aspect when it does not. HCC.

These articles are based on ethnicity, not race. Anyone who claims that non-white English people should not be considered ethnically English is wrong and probably shouldn't be here. I will consider any racist edits to the article as vandalism and report them to an administrator. Alun 11:23, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Related Ethnic Groups

There is a column on the article titled 'related ethnic groups', which I find to be quite useless as it is so highly controversial and there are so many ways of viewing an ethnic group and defining how they are related, but it's there none the less. The inclusion of Germans as a related ethnic group to the English is not valid as if it is then most of Europe's ethnic groups should also be included. English people have some influence from the Teuton tribes of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes. These people came from the north west of the continent. They spoke a language which is a forerunner to both modern English and German. They were Germanic tribes, but not German. The inclusion of related ethnic groups as Danes, Frisians and Dutch covers the lands whence these people came and also represents the migratory patterns of people between these areas over the centuries. Including Germans implies that the German people whose extent reaches far from Britain and who are a blend of peoples that never came close to Britain would mean that the English and Germans are as related as the English are to the Italians or Spanish, both of which are groups that also shared ancestors with the English (and rest of the British). If it is indeed true, as some scholars have suggested, that areas whence the Angles and Saxons came were completely depopulated as those people moved to Britain, then there is no continuation to link the English with Germans. So include Germans as related people, but also include the French (Normans), Italians (Romans), Icelanders and Swedes (Vikings) and all those groups represented in Britain throughout the centuries: Jews, Russians, Spanish, etc. Enzedbrit 21:22, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok it makes sense to me to say that if the Danes, Frisians and Dutch are included, then these peoples represent the Teutonic contribution to English people. Thanks for your explanation. Alun 05:57, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Cheers Alun, I'm quite pleased actually with my argument there Enzedbrit 11:29, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

The Italians obviously have no link with the English and the Germans are much more related to the English than Italians are. Enzedbrit, you are forgetting that the Angles and Saxons came from areas which remain part of Germany, although it is thought that they would be more related to modern Frisians than to modern people from Schleswig-Holstein. In a cultural and linguistic sense, the English are Germanic and in this sense are more related to Germans and other Germanic peoples more than any other groups. If you are speaking in terms of ancestry and genetics, then the English would obviously also be related to the Celtic peoples of Britain, but would still also remain related to the Germanic peoples, including modern Germans. The Germans of northern Germany share genetic and ancestral ties to the Anglo-Saxons just as the English, Frisians and Danes do. The Romans do not represent modern Italian people and were an agglomeration of different peopels from all over the empire. The Normans were mainly Scandinavians who had assimilated much Gallo/Latin (French) culture and in no way represent modern French. In either case, both groups settled in Britain with very few numbers and did not leave a lasting demographic impact. The French, Italians, Spaniards,etc. obviously have very little or no cultural or ancestral relation to the English and clearly nothing that can be compared to what the English share with the Germans. Epf 16:55, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I would dispute the idea that the English are "culturally" Germanic. What characteristics do the modern English share with the Germans that they do not also share with the French, for example? As far as "culture" is concerned, the English have far more in common with their insular neighbours the Welsh, Scottish, and Irish. TharkunColl 17:08, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

How are the English Germanic in a cultural sense, I do not understand this assertion, the Welsh, Scots, nad Irish have a far closer cultural affinity to the English than the Germans do. Can you enlighten me as to the nature of the cultural ties between the German people and English people? Given that English, Welsh and Scots people have shared the same Island for a millenium and a half, and have been part of the same state (the UK) for several centuries (nearly 500 years in the case of the Welsh and English), this seems like a spurious proposition. As for language, Francis Pryor states All I will note is that language is not necessarily a defining attribute of a particular ethnic group, and that the words and grammar of what was to become the English language were not solely derived from Germanic sources. Alun 17:11, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

As you know Alun, English language is a Germanic language and is based on the old English language of the Anglo-Saxons. Obviously there is much Norman French influence in modern English language but the language retains its original Anglo-Saxon base and further strong Germanic influences from Vikings, speakers of Old Norse. Yes the Scots and Welsh have a cultural affinity with the English but the cultural relation they have is much more from centuries of English cultural dominance and influence in the region. I should mention here that in "Germanic", I dont mean ethnic Germans, but the culture of all Germanic groups (Dutch, Frisians, Scandinavians, etc.). My discourse above was only there to show that the English obviously share more in common culturally with Germans than with other European groups of Southern Europe. English culture IS largely Germanic and its origins are from Anglo-Saxons and Vikings. The French-speaking Normans (descendants of Vikings themselves) brought continental influences (mainly on language) and advances (feudalism, castles, accounting offices, etc.), but the culture of England remained to be predominantly Germanic. As well as its Germanic language (which even today shares more in common with other Germanic languages than any others), the culture of England, although it obviously is different from other Germanic peoples (say just as Danes are different from Dutch), it still remains to be classified as Germanic. I could spend all day listing the majority aspects of English culture and national identity which traces its roots to the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings, from farming, measurements and work ethic to written documentation (e.g. of history), ruling classes, government systems (e.g. shires) and even naval traditions. The Welsh on the other hand have retained many strong aspects of their Celtic culture, not just language, that simply is not found with English culture. Even in Scotland where English influence has massively eroded away the original Gaelic culture and language (once widespread across the whole nation), the Gaelic elements remain that again is not found in English culture. I will end this discourse simply with this: identify to me the small parts of English culture and even national identity which are not Germanic (i.e. can not be traced to the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings) ? Epf 05:08, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

What is Gaelic about all of Scotland? Tartan? Northumbria has a tartan. Gaelic influence? Cumbria was settled by Gaels, as was north Wales and parts of north west England. Original Gaelic culture? The Gaels arrived only two centuries before the Teutons and when they did arrive they supplanted the Brythonic culture. What links all of Scotland together as a culture that is distinct from England other than a Scottish national identity? Nothing. How do Scottish people live daily differently to the rest of the British? They don't. But all the British eat, work, live in houses and drink their tea exceedingly different to how the Germans, French, Spanish or Italians live. How is English culture more largely Germanic than Scotland or Wales? Aside from the fact that you'll hear Welsh in most parts of Wales and Gaelic in the Hebrides and other isolated places, not much. Bagpipes are no more alien to London than they are to Edinburgh, hedgerows and afternoon tea doesn't end at Carlisle and they eat Welsh rarebit in Sussex I can assure you. Enzedbrit 11:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

There are tartans for groups, places, regions and all sorts of things all over the world but the tartan along with the clan system still has its origins with Gaels and Gaelic culture. Cumbria was only very lightly settled by Gaels, as was the few areas of Wales and south-west England. They did not arrive in signficant enough numbers there to obviously leave an imprint anywhere near on the scale that they did in Scotland. The Gaels are largely responsible for the creation of Scottish identity and culture and their impact is still felt all over Scotland in varying degrees. Indeed the Gaelic culture did supplant the native Byrthonic and Pictish cultures, but this just goes to show how much of an impact the culture of the Gaels had there. Bagpipes in London still doesnt exclude the fact that they are from Scottish culture just as a Chinese restaurant in London doesnt exclude the fact that cuisine is from Chinese culture. It is a very ignorant and offensive statement to Scottish people around the world to say there is nothing that links the culture of Scotland that makes it distinct from England. Not that it matters though since its largely false. English culture is obviously more Germanic than that of Wales, since Welsh culture wouldnt be "Welsh" without its strong Brythonic Celtic elements that are not seen with English culture. Just because you can find cultural elements of a group around the world because of globalization doesnt take away the distinctive origin of such cultural elements to certain groups and peoples. Scotland overall is a thorny issue as it has alot of Germanic influence from both the English and the Norse, but its original Gaelic elements remain in varying degrees across the whole country and obviously the culture overall is still distinguished from that of England with anything from music, festivals and food to family traditions, languages, sports and politics/government systems. Although obviously also very much related, the distinctions between Welsh and especially Irish culture with English is even more pronounced than is the case with Scotland (English was only spoke by a minority of people in "Catholic" Ireland until the 18th century). Epf 02:11, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay mate, fess up. WHAT about Wales is Brythonic that England doesn't have? What about England is Germanic that Wales/Scotland doesn't have? C'mon! I can think of the Eisteddford... and that's it. You really don't like the idea of England not being Germanic don't you. You say you're English - may I ask you: are you offended by the linking of England's indigenous heritage to its modern existence? It's not just me noting your obsession with making England out to be this amazing Germanic entity. When did you get this into your head and do you think you will ever change it? Enzedbrit 07:35, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Enzedbrit, your comment here makes no sense whatsoever and I've already argued before about how there are differences in culture between English, Scots and Welsh, even if in your arrogant viewpoint they are not seen as "significant". Wales obviously retains much more Brythonic elements than England (with the possible exception of a few parts of Cornwall) and England indeed is more Germanic culturally than Wales or Scotland in the sense that it does not share the same Brythonic and Gaelic cultural elements. Your accusations towards me here are pointless and have nothing to do with our debate, but being of English heritage on my father's side, I have no qualms about English having a significant ancient British ancestral component and I have never argued against such. I am only discussing the obvious and widely accepted fact that they are largely Germanic in both culture and language, more so than the other peoples of the isles and that they are also descended from Germanic peoples as well as ancient Britons. There is no obsession here and this word may be more synonymous with your own unaccepted views towards ethnicity in Britain. Epf 23:10, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Do we really need to cite references to prove the links of 'all' of these ethnic groups to the English? Is there really any doubt about the other British peoples for example? Enzedbrit 20:59, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe that in order to address the obvious angst of some and prevent the vandalism by those who keep changing the page without consensus, whilst acknowledging that minor useful edits or sensible ones are okay, I think that we should acknowledge the Teuton tribes as they remain on the Scottish people page and replace the Danes and Frisians to represent the Angles, Saxons and Jutes. I am unsure about the Dutch as this still covers a wide area most of which would've been unrelated to the origins of the Anglo-Saxons. Germans must still be definately left out as that is too broad, in mine and others opinions, and as the Normans are commonly held to be Vikings, and didn't come over in large numbers, should be represented well by the Danes. Enzedbrit 08:51, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I have no particular objection to including the Danes and Frisians, though I don't think the Dutch should be included, and nor the Germans. TharkunColl 17:25, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable, I see there's been a lot of heated debate since I was last here. Was there a consensus to only count peoples from the British Isles as ethnically related? Can't see a problem with it myself. Had a request to join the debate, but thought you two seemed to have most of it covered. This talk page needs archiving, but I don't want to archive any ongoing debates, so I might try to archive a few of the older discussions by subject rather than by date finished. Alun 17:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Origins of the English and the British.