Talk:Emma of Normandy

Untitled

I find the first paragraph very confusing and I can't figure out what it is saying. Very convoluted sentences. (guest)

Family Tree

The tree is hard to understand and appears to be wrong. Can anybody who's better with such tables (and has the knowledge) fix it? Srnec 04:56, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

What do you think is wrong with it? --Henrygb 23:28, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

It's just ugly and incomplete. I'd prefer it be removed altogether or spruced up, but I don't want to work with tables. Srnec 16:28, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

One objection that immediately comes to mind is that most Family Trees of this sort make some identification of persons who were recognized as Kings (of England). I realize that this is intended as a bare-bones "links" reference Family Tree, but this could be done as simply as by listing Kings of England in boldface. I may unilaterally do this, absent objection. At the very least, it would help me to make better sense of this too little understood Dark Ages period in English History. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.248.67.211 (talk) 20:50, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

This family tree is wrong. William the Conquerors father was not Richard II, Duke of Normandy but his younger brother, Robert.

The text is incorrect as well. Only Alfred returned in 1036, and as he came with 500 men this could hardly be an attempt to overthrown the king.DeAragon 12:20, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm thinking en.wikipedia should have English text informed by local (albeit foreign) authorities, rather than some bizarre pidgin: "Emma of Normandy might verily have seen herself as one made second to two women, in two marriages. In England, with respect to Ethelred's first wife, Aelfgifu, who possibly died in childbirth, or with a complication after labour[1], she, was known as Aelfgifu[2], a mere replacement. With her marriage to Cnut, set in the shade of his 'handfast' wife, Aelfgifu of Northampton, she, contemporally, was known as Aelfgifu of Normandy. Each of her marriages, then, in some way leaves her as some second Aelfgifu, which she was clearly want to abandon, in preference to her otherwise prominent name, Emma. Her marriages, as a noble, no matter if they were as a secondary wife, were the England and Normandy connection, which was to find its culmination under her great-nephew William the Conqueror, and 1066."

Canute/Cnut

Which one is more common? This article is about 50-50 and I think it should be made consistant. Storeye 06:47, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Me again; if no one objects I shall change them to "Canute" as that is what their Wikipedia pages say. Speak now or forever hold your peace. Storeye 09:06, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Prose style

Long ago this comment was made "I find the first paragraph very confusing and I can't figure out what it is saying. Very convoluted sentences. (guest)" The whole account of her life could be improved: it may not be biased but there it seems rather more like an argument than a statement of the known facts.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 18:53, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Improvements

Two things:

1. Goda of England isn't included on the family tree.
2. Trial by ordeal says:

   One famous instance of the ordeal of ploughshares concerned Emma of Normandy, accused of adultery with the Bishop of Winchester in the mid-eleventh century. If church chroniclers are to be believed, she was so manifestly innocent that she had already walked over the blades when she asked if her trial would soon begin.

   If this can be cited it should be included here too.

Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 18:21, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Ordeal of Ploughshares

There is no mention of this on the page: Trial by ordeal#Ordeal_of_fire CapnZapp (talk) 12:43, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

This is also mentioned in the article on the bishop concerned, Ælfwine of Winchester. It is generally considered legendary, but worth mentioning. The whole article badly needs improving. Dudley Miles (talk) 14:14, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Emma's Psychology re Her Marriages and Names

In the section Psychological Speculation [1] I have corrected the name of Æthelred's first wife, previously given as "Ælfflæd " to Ælfgifu of York together with some associated minor changes to the wording/style. (Ælfflæd was the second wife of Edward the Elder.) — Rkbooth (talk) 13:20, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Clarify who trusts who

In the section called, "Reign of Æthelred" it says, talking of Emma, "She was an ally of her husband's most trusted adviser, the deeply distrusted Eadric Streona, ealdorman of Mercia..." Can I suggest that this be clarified? It is not necessarily the case that he has to be either most trusted or deeply distrusted because he could be trusted by one person or group and deeply distrusted by some other person or group, but this does need explaining because at the moment it reads as unintelligible gibberish. Cottonshirtτ 07:24, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

I have revised. Is this clear now? Dudley Miles (talk) 13:32, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Alfred Aetheling's death - Lack of Citation and Giving of Opinion

Under the section entitled "Sons" the history of Alfred Aethling's death is given. After stating that the Encomium Emmae Reginae says Harold Harefoot was to blame, this follows: "Some scholars suggest that Emma may have had a hand in her own son’s murder."

Who are "some scholars" and where is the citation for this?

The next paragraph reads:

"Our understanding of the story states that the young men had received a letter from their mother asking them to come to England from Normandy. If the letter had originated from Emma, rather than a trap set by their competitors, was she aware of the danger she was placing them in? Was she intending to put them in danger? These are questions which, though they may forever be unanswered, scholars ponder over."

"Our understanding"? Whose? And again, no citation, without which this paragraph is pure speculation. Even with a citation proving that Emma wrote to invite her 2 sons back to England, it proves nothing at all about Emma's possible involvement in a possible conspiracy. It does not belong in an encyclopedia.

If anyone can provide good reason for leaving this in the article, please do. History Lunatic (talk) 23:55, 1 August 2014 (UTC)History Lunatic

Revert of deletion of paragraph

Epinoia has reverted my deletion of a paragraph concerning Emma in Cnut's reign without explanation. This states that she developed a close relationship with Ælfsige of Peterborough after 1020, and that he was her spiritual adviser. Ælfsige links to a bishop who died in 959. Ælfsige, abbot of Peterborough is mentioned in Pauline Stafford's Queen Emma and Queen Edith as an ally accompanied her into exile in 1013, but he is not presented as a significant figure. He is not mentioned in ODNB on Emma and only briefly as a minor figure in Lawson's biography of Cnut. He does not have an article in Wikipedia. The whole paragraph is unreferenced POV and should be deleted. Dudley Miles (talk) 23:35, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

- Assuming good faith, someone must have had a source for the information or it would not have been added. If it is not notable, then it should be removed, but a chance should be given to find a credible citation. The Wikipedia article Abbot of Peterborough lists Ælfsige, Abbot from 1006–1042. There may be some confusion over the spelling of Anglo-Saxon names. In the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle he is called both Elfsy and Elsinus and is mentioned several times as Abbot of Peterborough, as accompanying Emma to Normandy, and for collecting relics, so he seems to have been notable in his time. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle also makes reference to Elfsy, bishop at Winchester, now called Ælfwine of Winchester. In the story of the The Ordeal of Queen Emma by Fire, she is said to have a close relationship with Ælfwine, so it is possible that confusion over the name Elfsy led someone to mistakenly think she was close to Elfsy of Peterborough instead of Elfsy of Winchester. Anyway, let’s see if anyone can come up with a source before deleting it. - cheers - Epinoia (talk) 01:10, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

There is no confusion. Ælfsige, abbot of Peterborough, is being referred to. He accompanied her into exile in 1013 as I wrote above. He is briefly mentioned in the main source about Emma, Stafford's Queen Emma and Queen Edith, but only in passing in or not at all in other sources about the period such as biographies of Æthelred and Cnut. The source is probably O'Brien's biography of Emma, but this is a popular book which is not cited by historians and is therefore not a WP:RS. The paragraph links to the wrong Ælfsige and wrongly dates his association with Emma to after 1020. It says that Emma was not active in the first years of Cnut's reign, which no serious historian would claim to know in view of the very limited information available. It is correct that she was a patroness of the church, but any discussion of this should be from scratch based on examination of reliable sources, not trying to find a source for a paragraph which mixes dubious and correct statements. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:49, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

The close relationship with Ælfsige, Abbot of Peterborough, doesn’t seem to be supported by sources and is not particularly noteworthy, so yes, I agree that sentence should be cut. As for the rest of it, I did read a history that said that Emma was in the background for the first part of her marriage to Cnut because of Ælfgifu and an acrimonious relationship with Godwin, who was favored by Cnut. While Cnut was away in Denmark, Emma was able to consolidate a power base for herself. Cnut’s marriage to Ælfgifu was a Viking hand-clasp marriage, whereas Emma’s was a Christian marriage. She was able to get the Church behind her because of this, along with some generous contributions, and the Church pressured the nobles to support her. The nobles were also anxious to rein in Godwin's power. When Cnut returned to England in 1020, Emma was well established and was able to bring the support of the Church and the English nobility to his reign. Ælfgifu was pushed to the background and Godwin was sidelined. In 1030 Ælfgifu was sent to Norway and after Cnut’s death, Godwin got his revenge by murdering Emma’s son Alfred. I have no idea now of where I read this, it was twenty years ago, but the claim of her greater role after 1020 and that she strengthened her husband's claim to the throne as a Christian king could be factual. However, I have copied the paragraph and if you feel strongly that it should be removed, go ahead. If I find sources for any of the claims I will rewrite the paragraph and reinstate it with citations. Is this acceptable to you? – thanks – Epinoia (talk) 21:39, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

I have deleted the paragraph. Some of what you have read goes against reliable sources such as Ann Williams's ODNB article on Godwin, which says that his rise took place when you say he was sidelined, but her strong relationship with the church is supported in her own ODNB article. Dudley Miles (talk) 22:26, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Dudley Miles, I haven't had a lot of time to research this, but it appears that the information I read about Godwin was incorrect, or I mis-remembered it. Thanks - Epinoia (talk) 17:39, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

Winchester Cathedral

It was said on the BBC Radio 4 programme Sunday on May 19 2019 that Emma's bones had been discovered in Winchester Cathedral. This could be mentioned in the article. Vorbee (talk) 06:37, 19 May 2019 (UTC)