Talk:Electrical wiring/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Electrical wiring. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Redirect

I removed the redirect, since Electrical wiring and Electrical wiring (U.S.) will now be taking different directions, and should therefore have their own talk pages. I have not relocated old talk comments from Talk:Electrical wiring (U.S.) to here. If you previously made comments that belong here, please feel free to relocate them. --Theodore Kloba 19:16, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

Recent edits

My learned co-editor Mr. 64.24.214.168 has made a lot of changes...but I'm not sure I like them all. The organization of the article is less clear, and some key facts have been deleted. I found some text in the "Underground Transmission and Distribution" book that will be useful but I won't likely get back to this article till after Christmas. --Wtshymanski 20:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone have any suggestions on where I might find more infomration on durability of wire insulation? I am looking into an accident that happened at a construction site where a buried conduit was broken along with 4 600' runs of 500 kcmil aluminum wire. I'm tring to find out if the 8 300' runs I'm left with are reuseable or if the stress' from installation and deinstallation could have comprimised the insulation. I checked the NEC book for 2005 but relevant specifications are not addressed and I'm having trouble finding details anywhere else.

freakin' genius.

I love historical bright ideas. Our fine article says:

Other methods of securing wiring that are now obsolete include:

Re-use of existing gas pipes for electric lighting. Insulated conductors were pulled into the pipes feeding gas lamps.

Freakin genius! I can't conceive of any problems of any kind that might have arisen from this practice. User:81.182.171.214

Naturally the gas was disconnected and not restarted--DV8 2XL 19:58, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

There is, nonetheless, a difference between "electrical conduit" and plain old "pipe". To be considered worthy of the name "conduit", the inside of a pipe has to be free of burrs and imperfections that could otherwise damage wire insulation. Important for electrical use, unimportant if that pipe were merely plumbing to feed a water closet. --carlb 04:05, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Mineral insulated cable figure

There have been some edits to the figure showing mineral insulated cable; apparently there is some disagreement about whether information about fireproofing should be included. I am not familiar with the use of this cable, and would like to know if it is intended to provide fire protection, or is it intended for use in and around equipment that is hot when operating normally (or both). --Gerry Ashton 00:50, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

MI cable is used for reasons other than fireproofing; such as the installation in the picture, where it was chosen for long life and stability. I took the photo! All that stuff about fireproofing was only peripherally related and was far too much for a photo caption. --Wtshymanski 18:59, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The caption to an illustration is no place for a long discussion of fire protection methods. The photo depicts an installation of MI cable that has nothing to do with its fire-resistive properties, in a region of the world not under the jurisdiction of the USNRC (whoever *that* might be?). Not vandalism, a sincere edit. More words are not always better. My learned co-editor would be advised to procure a free image of a proper illustration of a fire-resistant installation of MI cable if he feels that would be a useful illustration to the article. --Wtshymanski 18:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Help please!

Hi! I'm doing a project on Concealed Wiring in Buildings, for which I needed information on: 1. When did people switch over to concealed wirings from open wiring? 2. And why? This article has been extremely informative, though I have not understood a couple of things. 1. When exactly (approximate year) did people start concealing the wires inside the walls? Is it when cables came into use or before or after? 2. Why did people decide to switch over to concealed wiring even though there is the danger of a fire breaking out? Is it because of just aesthetics or because of the disadvantages of the older wiring methods? I'd very much appreciate it if somebody can give me all the disadvantages of concealing the wires, as well as their opinion on whether they find concealed or open wiring better. Sridevi KS 06:26, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't have any reliable sources for you, but I can suggest a few thoughts to consider. When electricity first became available, it would have been installed mostly in existing houses. This would favor either using surface wiring, or putting the wires through the gas pipes that were used for illumination up to that time. On the other hand, one of the early wiring methods was knob and tube wiring, and that needed to be concealed in walls for mechanical protection. Knob and tube wiring would have been much easier to install in new construction rather than existing houses. --Gerry Ashton 18:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanx Gerry! Sridevi KS 06:05, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Colour coding?

I've searched high and low looking for information on the colour coding of wires. I know it seems very basic, but shouldn't we have somewhere that the colour red is used to denote negative charge and the colour black is used to denote possitive charge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.45.231.9 (talk) 18:53, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

The color code depends on the country, and whether the wiring is building wiring or inside some electrical device. In United States building wiring for example, white is neutral, green or bare is ground, and other colors are live AC. --Gerry Ashton 19:43, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Copper

The article should stress that copper is the most widespread conductor. John a s (talk) 00:07, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know, copper is not the most widespread conductor. I believe that the usual long distance transmission lines, and shorter distribution lines, are aluminium. I am not so sure how to weight those, compared to inside wiring, but a lot of power travels long distances over alumnium wire. Copper is common for inside wiring, long distance phone and data wiring (except where it is fiber), and such. Since the long distance wiring is at higher voltage, it only needs a smaller diameter. Gah4 (talk) 23:21, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Signal wiring

This article starts with the comment 'This article describes general aspects of electrical wiring as used to provide power'. Should there be a link under 'See also' to an article on signal wiring, ie wiring used to convey electrical signals? John a s (talk) 00:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Electrical wires

What are electrical wires made out of —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.120.135.21 (talk) 13:25, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Small ones used inside buildings are usually copper. Heavy ones used for outdoor power transmission are usually aluminium. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 18:19, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Copper wire

Copper wire redirects to this more general article. As long as that is the case, the article needs much more specific data: AWG wire tables, sizes, resistance, temp coefficients, etc -- such as can be found at www.epanorama.net/documents/wiring/wire_resistance.html -71.174.179.130 (talk) 18:48, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Wire table - practical data

Resistance and Resistivity for Selected Common Metals[1]
  10-ga wire Resistance
               Ohms/ft	    Resistivity (10-6 ohm-cm)
 Silver         0.000944        1.629
 Copper         0.000999        1.724
 Gold	        0.00114  	2.44
 Aluminum	0.00164  	2.828
 Iridium	0.00306  	5.29
 Brass	        0.00406  	7.00
 Nickel         0.00452  	7.8
 Iron	        0.00579  	10.0
 Platinum	0.00579  	10.0
 Steel  	0.00684  	11.8
 Lead	        0.0127    	22

This article would be more useful to the general reader if more practical data like above were added. -71.174.184.42 (talk) 00:15, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

CURRENT CARRYING CAPACITY OF COPPER CONDUCTORS

CURRENT CARRYING CAPACITY OF COPPER CONDUCTORS (Measured in Amperes)[2]
CONDUCTOR    INSULATION MATERIALS AT GIVEN TEMPERATURES
SIZE    80°C    90°C    105°C   125°C   200°C
                        NYLON   Kynar   TEFLON
30 AWG	2	3	3	3	4
28 AWG	3	4	4	5	6
26 AWG	4	5	5	6	7
24 AWG	6	7	7	8	10
22 AWG	8	9	10	11	13
20 AWG	10	12	13	14	17
18 AWG	15	17	18	20	24
16 AWG	19	22	24	26	32
14 AWG	27	30	33	40	45
12 AWG	36	40	45	50	55
10 AWG	47	55	58	70	75
8 AWG	65	70	75	90	100
6 AWG	95	100	105	125	135
4 AWG	125	135	145	170	180
2 AWG	170	180	200	225	240
Single (insulated) Conductor in Free Air 30°C Ambient Temperature

-71.174.184.42 (talk) 02:46, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Wire data

Instead if giving wire data, we should give references to reliable sources. Since this data affects the safety of life, it should not be in an unreliable source such as Wikipedia. --Jc3s5h (talk) 03:00, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Those sources are not reliable too. To get correct data, you should calculate it yourself. If distribution substation is far from the building 100 meters and 2500 meters - results will be various. Better if you use software wich will calculate cable to you to check your calculations.

Also, engineers confuse the people by the wire gauge. In fact, such fat gauges is required for earthing, but not for the load. As for the load, 1.5mm² of copper can conduct even 17...18 Amps without overlimit heating (in short distances), but for ground wire to 15 or 16 Amps it is required 2.5mm² of copper or more. So, those tables we can apply only to earthing. As for load they wouldn't be correct to lot of situations.

For the first, it is need to put in order those reliable sources. 90.191.190.76 (talk) 21:04, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Green & yellow vs. green/yellow, other mysteries

The table of colour codes lists both "green & yellow" and "green/yellow" combinations. This is ambiguous. Does the latter designation mean green and yellow, or green or yellow? The "/" might mean or in "120/208/240V". Other possible interpretations include "green with yellow stripe", or vice versa, or "yellow wire twisted around green wire", or vice versa. Please clarify.

Also, the meaning of alternate color designations in italics (e.g. brass) should be explained.

Lastly, in the footnote to the table, the term "ICI applications" is used. This acronymic term is not explained here, or anywhere else in the article. Please define or remove it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reify-tech (talk • contribs) 15:08, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

What is the problem?

90.191.190.76 (talk) 19:28, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

IEC 60950 not relevant

IEC 60950 is titled "Information technology equipment" and is not relevant to building wiring, even if it does have the surprising equivalence of sizes in copper and alumninum conductors. I'm not about to download all the parts looking for this unless we can get a specific citation. --Wtshymanski (talk) 18:51, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Ambiguous Wire Color Standards

Extended content

Shouldn't we have to designed a new single Universal Electrical Wire Color (UEWC) standard that everyone and every industry should follow and compliant to right now?

There's too many color standards used in the world, and I can't even decide which one should I follow into. For example of some I can see as major wire color sets, there are:

 Red (L), Black (N), Yellow-Green/Green (E)

 Brown (L), Blue (N), Yellow-Green (E)

It's interesting to see/note that majority of 3-wire cables I bought in my country have these color sets:

 Blue (L/N), Black (N/L), Yellow (E)

 Brown (L), Blue (N), Yellow (E)

The Red color seems only exist in 2-wire cables, along with Black color as usual (resembles DC cable wire-coloring counterpart). Some 2-wire cables have Brown/Black & Blue color set which is confusing in correct house-wiring later.

Now you see that there's no Yellow single color used as Earth/Ground in the article (just single Green besides common Yellow-Green stripes), so I just made it up to use the Yellow cable as Earth/GND in the samples above.

When Blue and Black wire came in a cable, then I got really confused of what color to use as Live (L) and Neutral (N), just like everybode else in my country - so you'll see 2 wiring config of this particular 3-wire cable (Black as Live/L & Blue as Neutral/N, and vice versa), which will jeopardizing all internal house-wirings if installed by different people - you definitely ALWAYS need an AC current detector/test pen when dealing in AC wirings in homes of our country since of messy non-standard issue in both wire color-coding and unprofessional technicians/engineers installing the house-wirings.

I guess the Yellow-Green color is missing in some countries because of the associated particular higher cost in producing that 2-color-in-1 wire, thus the industry replace it with just Yellow single color (or single Green in some countries). Thus, I propose these 3-wire cable color sets that may be accepted as single universal standard used in all countries.

PROPOSAL

 Red (L), Black (N), Yellow/Green (E/G)

 Brown (L), Blue (N), Yellow/Green (E/G)

I prefer the 1st color set since you don't need to remember other color sets - the standard Red/Black 2-wire color-coding is already popular in the world that most people (if not all) knew that the Red must be the Positive (+)/Live (L) one, and the Black is the Negative (-)/Neutral (N) one [DC/AC polarity], so the extra cable (Yellow, Green, or any other color, or any dual-color stripes) must be for Ground/Earth (G/E) in the 3-wire cable.

Brown and Blue wires are quite hard to distinguish, especially to those not accustomed to these color set. FYI, at the first time I saw this 'alien' color cable, I thought the Blue one is the Live one and Brown one is the Neutral one since Brown is darker than Blue (by following the Red/Black popular 2-wire color-coding 'dogma') and that after I realized the Yellow wire is usually wired to the Ground/Earth or disconnected entirely since earthing/grounding is not an obligatory here, esp. in houses/buildings of middle-low class segments - before that 'Earth/Ground-wiring discovery' I thought the Yellow one is the Live one (our intuition would tell us that brighter/brightest color should be the Positive/Live polarity one, and darker/darkest one should be the otherwise, esp. with Red[+]/Black[-] 2-wire color-coding has already been 'etched/carved'in our mind).

You can omit the dual-color stripes since it's not obligatory to use/follow and single Yellow color is my preference since it's cheaper to produce than dual-color stripes one, it stands out from other wire colors (to color blind people its near white color compared to Green color), and it's commonly used in my country as Ground/Earth wiring (we never see Green nor Yellow-Green stripe wire here).

So here's my final 3-wire color-coding set proposal:

 Red (L/+), Black (N/-), Yellow (E/G)

For 2-wire color-coding set (for either AC/DC use), just remove the Ground/Earth (Yellow) wire [the Yellow wire can be used as 1-wire cable, which is commonly be used as a single Grounding/Earthing wire too, to distinguish it from the other 2/3-wire cables nearby] - real simple to remember and efficient, isn't it? :-)

Thank You for your attention, especially for IEC or any world standard bodies dealing this particular matter.

==> [Ois1974 @ 2013-12-24 Tue] 114.79.52.217 (talk) 23:40, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

This system would not be satisfactory because of the relatively large number of people who are red-yellow colour blind.

Please note what is written at the top of this page:

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Electrical wiring article.

This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

This section ignores these guidelines and should be discontinued. FF-UK (talk) 23:33, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

no cross-wiring article?

Why does cross-wiring work better? Why is there no cross-wiring article in Wikipedia?• Serviceable†Villain 23:45, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

It is unclear what you are talking about, or if this is just a random troll. If you're serious, you'll have to give more details about your question. Reify-tech (talk) 19:51, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

color code table for U.S.

I am confused by the words for the colors spelled out in parentheses for the U.S. color code table, (brass) (silver) (green). If those are referring to the bare wire color, and not the insulation, then I suggest it be explicitly stated so.Michael9422 (talk) 19:41, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

It is explained in the first note at the bottom of the table. Reify-tech (talk) 19:51, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks.Michael9422 (talk) 02:52, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Non-metallic means what?

Powdered magnesium oxide or something? Or is that metal? The answer may be in there somewhere, but should be foregrounded. When you use the phrase "non-metallic wiring" people will want to know right then and there just exactly what you are talking about. I got here via the stub on "Romex," it would have been good to tell people right there, just exactly what Romex is in two or three or four words, rather than refer information-seekers to this long article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.162.253.101 (talk) 18:17, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

The WP:DAB page for Romex pointed to a non-helpful location; it has been changed to point directly to Thermoplastic-sheathed cable. Reify-tech (talk) 19:51, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Earliest rubber insulated cables

Vulcanized rubber was used as a cable insulating material as early as 1868, and was well established in the 1880s (see John Mellanby's "The History of Electric Wiring" (1957), London: Macdonald.) I think that the historical references in this article need serious revision to be of any value. FF-UK (talk) 18:31, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

AUSTRALIAN WIRE CODE NAMES In Australia I've discovered that they call the basic electricity A = Active .... That's the hot line ..... The other is N = Neutral ..... AND Finally .... E = Earth The color codes may be different from other countries, but the color codes are listed Above — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.224.8.248 (talk) 06:54, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

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1925 Radio Wiring Color Standard

FYI - the April 1925 issue of Radio-Broadcast has an article about radio construction standardization. Article on page 1037 (PDF 35 of 190). Wiring Color Chart on PDF 32 of 190. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 02:51, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

I was wondering not so long ago, where the convention in DC circuits of using red for (+) and black for (-) started. I suspect that this is the place. It seems so obvious by now, but at some point it wasn't obvious. Also not so obvious, the color codes for house wiring, with white neutral, black for line, with red and blue less common, and also used for three phase wiring. That might be unrelated to radio wiring. Gah4 (talk) 19:14, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Despite competition from other materials, copper remains the preferred electrical conductor in nearly all categories of electrical wiring

The article says: Despite competition from other materials, copper remains the preferred electrical conductor in nearly all categories of electrical wiring. I suppose this is true, given the categories listed, but I believe that transmission lines (long distance), and distribution (shorter distance) are commonly aluminium. Inside buildings, power wiring is mostly copper, and that does include a lot of categories, but a lot of wire is in those other categories. Gah4 (talk) 23:25, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Sounds like the Copper Development Association has been at it again; rather purple prose for an encyclopedia. --Wtshymanski (talk) 23:43, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Heat resistant cable

There is no section in this article about heat resistant cable. Eg insulations that can withstand higher temperatures. Can someone with the relevant knowledge fill this gap (or link a more suitable article)? FreeFlow99 (talk) 15:47, 26 April 2021 (UTC)