Talk:Dracula's Castle (Castlevania: Symphony of the Night)

Suggest move to Dracula's castle (Castlevania: Symphony of the Night)

There are some sources that are about the normal castle rather than the inverted one. The article could discuss the entire castle as a level - there doesn't seem to be any particular reason it needs to talk about the Inverted Castle only. [1] [2]. (I'm not sure if it should be Dracula's Castle or Dracula's castle, but I assume the latter.) ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 09:53, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I wonder if Inverted Castle was chosen for WP:NATDAB reasons? Your proposed name is...long. I'm indifferent, just giving some passing thoughts. Sergecross73 msg me 15:44, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind Dracula's Castle (Castlevania) but that would imply it was talking about its appearance in all the games, which the sources don't really talk about too much outside of SotN. Still, perhaps due to its reception with SotN it could support a more primary sourced coverage of how it pops up in each game. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 21:31, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

IDK, like some of the discussion involves the non-inverted castle, but by and large, the reception and significant coverage seems to hinge on the Inverted Castle aspect of the level. It's kind of like how Minus World, by necessity, needs to cover World 1-2 in order for it to make sense. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 19:38, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I'd argue the most substantive discussion, which I posted above, talks about the castle in general. Meanwhile, the only significant one talking about the Inverted Castle is the fairly short Game Informer article with only one observation about it.

The inversion of the castle is obviously a "woah" moment, but there's nothing incredibly special about it in particular besides the realization that the original's level design was impressively more complex since it supported being upside down.

I pretty much think this move is strictly necessary for the article to even be notable, because by itself, the Inverted Castle part isn't. The castle as a whole entity just squeaks by. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 21:30, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I mean, the articles that talk about the castle as the primary topic in the article center the Inverted Castle as the most important detail. The reason why the castle is notable is its inverted counterpart, and all reception deals with that aspect of the area. The legacy section is also exclusively based on the Inverted Castle. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 22:47, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Statements such as: The castle is draped in a strange fabric of baroque mainstays and Roman pomp. This is not a complaint but a compliment to the artists. The art style feels contemporary and holds up great, just as “The Prisons” and its population of miserable inmates remain timeless after 250 years. and ...here is a pervading sense that these structures are too large for any conceivable use. The vaults in “The Prisons” have no ceiling and stretch on seemingly forever. Likewise, Dracula’s castle is immense, even for a castle of decadent scale. and The parapets stand in unnatural arrangements. There are towers where the castle lacks a necessary foundation, floating in midair. The entire architectural body is sitting on top of an underground river. The whole thing is suggestive of an architect gone mad. Have nothing to do with the Inverted Castle at all and are general statements about the Dracula's Castle art and level design. Similarly, Beginning with Symphony of the Night, a castle was much more than just candles and stones. It was a vast maze that embodied an esoteric view of the individual’s journey through consciousness. While many would tread the main paths, only a few adepts would ascend to the highest tiers of completion percentage. is not about the Inverted Castle. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 01:33, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

I didn't argue that the articles were exclusively about Inverted Castle, but the subject of, say, "Symphony of the Night was designed to work upside down" is centered around the Inverted Castle, even if the article also discusses Dracula's Castle. The regular castle is clearly the less notable aspect of this area. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 01:50, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 5 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Little participation, but no doubt a consensus to move. Seems reasonably explained. (non-admin closure) - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 23:28, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

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Inverted Castle → Dracula's Castle (Castlevania: Symphony of the Night) – As discussed above but unable to reach any form of consensus, I don't believe the Inverted Castle alone is independently notable, however, there are various other sources from Kill Screen and GamesRadar+ talking about the castle in general from Symphony of the Night that render it notable when the scope is widened slightly, hence the name change. The disambiguation may be long, but it reflects the fact that only the castle's SOTN incarnation is actually notable as a location and level. I am starting a move discussion to see if a specific consensus can be reached. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 15:18, 5 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 20:42, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

If only the SOTN castle is notable then isn't Dracula's Castle (Castlevania) enough? WPscatter ^t/_c 06:27, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

The castle exists in every Castlevania game, so I figured the disambiguation would specify further so as to avoid people adding facts about every incarnation of the castle in the entire series, which would inevitably happen if it was solely "Castlevania" as the disambiguation. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 11:04, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support original proposal. I agree with the argument in the nomination, and I think the longer disambiguation is a worthwhile protection against scope creep. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 19:44, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 7 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vanderwaalforces (talk) 13:18, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

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Dracula's Castle (Castlevania: Symphony of the Night) → Inverted Castle – The article is almost exclusively a discussion of the Inverted Castle. The entire Reception section is about the Inverted Castle, the Concept and creation section is almost exclusively about the Inverted Castle, and the claim in the previous discussion that it was not independently notable is strange given the fact that almost every source talks more about it than the regular castle. To me, the fact that the regular castle has only two sources that don't talk about the Inverted Castle makes the current title odd, considering that multiple sources identify the Inverted Castle as being responsible for elevating Symphony of a Night as a whole. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 14:19, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Per the previous discussion, the Inverted Castle is still non-notable. Sources generally agree that the overall level design of SOTN is what is good about it, not just the Inverted Castle. (It's literally just flipping the previous levels upside down, so I fail to see how it could really be that much better than what came before). ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 14:26, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
  • I do not remotely agree that the Inverted Castle is non-notable on its own. Identified as one of the greatest moments in gaming, identified by multiple sources as a major aspect of the game that improved it considerably, Game Informer article specifically about Inverted Castle, Jonathan Blow's commentary on it, etc. Also, the notion that the level design in general is what made SotN stand out, that's not supported by the citations. [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], these sources identify the Inverted Castle alone as elevating SotN, and I cannot find any sources in the article that claim the level design or original castle elevated SotN. Also, while you may not be able to appreciate what made it much better, the sources explicitly say why they think it is much better - the fact that the game is designed to be played upside down, the fact that they think it works, the fact that it was a cool secret is why they say it was elevated. It's not really relevant whether we can understand what makes the critics feel the way they do. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 14:47, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

    Yeah, um... I don't agree with that stance at all. If you go to the last one from RPG Fan for example, it does say that "it is the Kojima-worthy opening and inverted castle that transforms my like for this game to outright respect," but then in the very next paragraph it also says "I was obliterating enemies left and right, taking in the sights and sounds of Dracula's Castle" and "it is Symphony of The Night's castle that brings me back, begging to explored again. It is impeccably designed, made magnificent by that beautiful 2D art." This seems to be cherry-picking to support your concept that the Inverted Castle is somehow more notable than the level as a whole. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 15:21, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

    The Inverted Castle is Dracula's Castle though. You can find examples of Dracula's Castle being mentioned, even praised, but it is rarely more than an afterthought. For example, the source I just added praises the normal castle, but only to point out how much more interesting and important the Inverted Castle is. Furthermore, you seem to be treating the quotes as coming from the same person, when it's multiple people commenting. The first example is not talking about Dracula's Castle, it specifically refers to the opening, which is not at all reception for the regular castle. I may have missed some of the quotations in RPGFan, but it's not cherry picking to point out how many sources - a majority of sources touching upon what elevates SotN - attribute it to the Inverted Castle, either primarily or fully. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 15:33, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

    The second quote is also not really of any value, as it seems like you're arguing that Dracula's Castle and Inverted Castle are separate concepts - and while it's possible they used it to refer to only the non-inverted castle, that would be OR on your part. At most, it tells us that the person thought that the first part of the castle was fun too, but it's not commentary comparable to critics arguing Inverted Castle helped elevate SotN as a whole. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 15:38, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

    "Inverted Castle" does not refer to the castle as a whole, only the flipped-upside-down second castle level that is accessible from an optional secret true ending if you free Richter Belmont. See Reverse Castle on FANDOM. This article seems to have misidentified it as the entire castle, but that is not the case. Maybe that is from whence the confusion stems.

    So yes, I am arguing that they're separate concepts, or at least that the inverted one is a subtopic of the entire castle. When you're talking about the Inverted Castle, you aren't talking about the normal one. I don't think it would be considered OR to say as much. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 01:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

    My point is that Dracula's Castle does not exclude the Inverted Castle. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 02:28, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

  • Also this source [8] that talks about Inverted Castle in significant detail. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 15:19, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, see discussion above and previous RM. 162 etc. (talk) 17:34, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Video games has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 19:04, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I feel the overall twist is the most notable aspect, and trying to force it as a discussion about the castle as a whole creates a weird "undue" issue where a smaller element of discussion is tied to the larger reaction.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 02:37, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

  If it were just about the twist, it wouldn't merit an article at all. If the choice is between a twist that isn't notable and a game level that is, I'll pick the one that supports an article. I'd have no problem with this move if I believed Inverted Castle on its own was notable. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 19:57, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

  • I don't see that to be the case at all. Most of the citations are about the twist or provide significant coverage of the twist. Only two sources actually provide significant coverage of the regular castle itself. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 05:03, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.