Talk:Dezo Hoffmann

sources

the external link given in the article doesn't lead to anything.

in case it's useful to someone as a source to cite, i have a book called The Rolling Stones: The Early Years, copyright 1984 by Dezo Hoffmann; McGraw-Hill Paperback edition 1985; first published in Great Britain by Vermilion & Company, an imprint of the Hutchinson Publishing Company, in 1984. ISBN 0-07-029305-8. the introduction states that Dezo Hoffmann worked (in Prague) as the clapper-boy for the Hedy Lamarr film Eroticon; in the mid-1930s he was a newsreel cameraman for 20th-Century-Fox, covering the invasion of Abyssinia and the Olympiad Popular in Barcelona, where he remained to cover the Spanish Civil War; he later joined the Czech army; and in 1940 arrived in England, where "the War Office quickly utilized his experience, sending him as a newsreel cameraman to all major theatres of war. After the war he joined the Crown film unit, but soon found more excitement and creative potential in press photography."

hope that helps some. Sssoul (talk) 12:00, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

pseudonyms

i have a scan of a may 1963 Record Mirror article where one of Hoffmann's photos is captioned "by Bill Williams"; what other pseudonyms did he employ? Sssoul (talk) 12:00, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Dezider Hoffmann, Dezo Hoffmann or Dežo Hoffmann

Simple google search shows that he used the Dezo Hoffmann form, he's called Dezider only in some Slovakian sources. That in itself decides in the question of his ethnicity as Dezső is the Hungarian name, but to avoid further discussions I will attempt to find a source when he talked about that. Anyway, I see no sense in why all the references were removed that he was Hungarian. (In fact, he was a Hungarian brought up in Slovakia as the borders changed in his childhood). Regards --Korovioff 19:23, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Dežo is a familiar name or diminutive of Dezider. The article about Robert de Niro is not titled Bob de Niro although many people call him this way. The fact that he himself used the spelling Dezo can be well explained as follows. Before the computer and unicode era the most of the people from Eastern Europe living abroad, with a diacritic in their names, had simply given up and switched to the plain "English" spelling of their name for an obvious practical reason: It was too hard to struggle with clerks in varyous offices with English typewriters. I can say that since I am one of them. For the respect of the person in question it is proper to keep his original name as the article's title, of course keeping Dezo as a redirect page. Regarding him being Hungarian: for many Hungarians the most of Slovakia is still a part of the Kingdom of Hungary. It may be a pitty, but Kingdom of Hungary ceased to exist in 1918. Hungary and the Kingdom of Hungary are not the same thing. While Hungary is the home of Hungarians (mostly), the Kingdom of Hungary was a big multiethnical state. Unfortunately there are some Hungarians who like to think of all ex KoH heritage as being simply Hungarian. There are many tiring discussions on this topic. However I invite anybody feeling &| wanting to be helpfull, to concentrate their creative energy to something more usefull than changing a person's name. Maybe writting an article that does not exist? Jurohi 00:51, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Dear Jurohi, I am able to make a difference between an ethnic Slovakian living in the Hungarian Kingdom and a Hungarian living in the Hungarian Kingdom. The simplest and only fair way of making the differentiation is by applying facts, rather than emotions. And the facts are the following: "Dezo had a very strong Slovak-Hungarian English accent, but despite this he was accepted into the showbusiness world wherever he went."' The writer of this sentence is Marian Pauer, "the author of the recent and only book" about Hoffmann. The source is Slovakian [1]. You might be aware of in what way you could get to a "Slovakian-Hungarian accent" after 1918, and I hope that based on this you will not deny that Hoffmann had at least "something" to do with Hungarians. Anyway, I'm getting bored with having to play this same game again and again, the last time with Miksa Hell, who also became Slovakian in the Wikipedia article about him before I brought a source in which he confessed being Hungarian. And these are two people born in the one same city. How many other non-Slovakian Slovakians exist? I don't care if you call a Hungarian who came from Slovakia a Slovakian, but please do not eradicate references to his or her Hungarianness. That's not fair. Regards --Korovioff 22:12, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Dear Korovioff (and others). While I appreciate your polite style, it is obvious, that you did not read, what I have written above, or you just completely ignore it. There is no evidence about Hoffmann being Hungarian, except funky article on internet listing (among others) Tony Curtis, Rachel Weiss and Paul Newman as 'famous Hungarians'. BTW Paul Newman is considered 'famous Hungarian', probably because of his mother, who was born in Humene, Slovakia. Plus a little note: there is no such thing like ethnic Slovakian, you probably ment ethnic Slovak. Jurohi 02:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Jurohi, hi again. I recommend that you should focus on the Marian Pauer comment quoted above. Do you have an idea, why Hoffman had a strong Slovakian-Hungarian accent? It would lead a little too far to discuss Tony Curtis, who is the face of adverts broadcast in the U.S. about Hungary, the family visits of former German Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer in Hungary or the strongly different case of France's Nicolas Sarkozy. Can we concentrate on Hoffmann, please? Best regards, --Korovioff 09:23, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

sorry to butt in, but Dezo Hoffmann is the name he used during most of his professional life, so the Ringo Starr article is a much more appropriate parallel than the Robert de Niro one is: use the name the man is best known by, and mention his real name (if it's different) in the body of the article. meanwhile, there are other issues being neglected - for example, the external link provided leads to a blank page. Sssoul (talk) 11:36, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Sssoul, many thanks and sorry, I have found nothing to replace the blank page with. Sadly the original page on Marian Pauer has been removed from the internet. --Korovioff 19:33, 22 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Korovioff (talk • contribs)

Korovioff, you should go to Banská Štiavnica to get relevant information about Dežo Hoffmann. To see the house where he was born and do a real deep study about this issue. You would understand then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jasooon (talk • contribs) 10:23, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Slovak or Hungarian?

Could someone please quote any source that claims he's a Hungarian? Because there are more arguments to support that he was Slovak. First of all, he was born in Banska Stiavnica, which was within the Slovak majority area in the time of his birth. Second - he used his name as Dezo, not Dezso, another indicator, that he was not Hungarian after all. He joined the Czechoslovak wing in the Battle of Britain, those pilots were mainly czechs or Slovaks. His accent has no trace of Hungarian in it, moreover, he pronounces them or the as "ďem" and "ď" - slovak phonetic transcript of Them is 'dem', which is pronounced the exact same way Dezo says it in the central Slovak dialect. All of these point to his Slovak origin, therefore any claim about him being Hungarian must be pretty well sourced to rebut it. Wladthemlat (talk) 14:08, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Here's a snippet of a text written by Dezo himself. [2]. He mentions that Capa and his girlfriend were Hungarian whilst he only could speak the language - he did not identify himself as being a Hungarian as well. Case closed I say. Wladthemlat (talk) 17:44, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

You removed 2 sources from the article it seems, now your edits were reverted and the sources are back, seems the problem is solved. It seems that in all your arguments you seem to have missed that he was born in Hungary as well. Hobartimus (talk) 11:48, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

So? He did NOT identify himself as a Hungarian, I have a source for that. Therefore the article as it is today is simply false. The fact that he was born in the late Kingdom of Hungary does not make him a Hungarian, he was 8 when Czechoslovakia was created, he was definitely more Czechoslovak or Slovak than Hungarian. I also stated that I would like to see the exact quotes from those books, what is the basis for such a claim as it is clearly false in Dezo's own words. Wladthemlat (talk) 12:29, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

You should ask the original person who introduced the books into the article, in the meantime I read your source and "I met Capa because he and his girlfriend were Hungarian, I could speak the language so we could converse". Does not seem to support your views as I read it. Speaking Hungarian is a rare attribute for a Slovak a much more common attribute for a Hungarian. And at the very least you need to consider these facts: 1. Speaking Hungarian 2. Born in Hungary. 3. Sources added by someone else that say he is Hungarian. As far as see it's your turn to bring out some reliable sources that say he was Slovak and even then we don't remove we use the "some sources say x, some sources say Y" formula. Hobartimus (talk) 12:46, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Look, had he been a Hungarian, he would have stated "he was a Hungarian as well". As he started to attend the school in the times of the most fierce Magyarization, it is natural, that he was able to speak Hungarian. But he was NOT Hungarian. Those two sources are dubious and cannot be verified. It is unclear what exactly they state about his Hungarianity.Wladthemlat (talk) 13:02, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Moreover, it is a matter of simple use of Occam's razor. If he did not identify himself as a Hungarian and was born in the area with documented Slovak majority, the most plausible explanation is, that he was Slovak. Wladthemlat (talk) 13:20, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

After the sources confirming he was a Slovak have been found, I move, that the Hungarian reference is removed. It is dubious and after seeing the text by Dezo, it is clear, that he did not identify himself as a Hungarian. The book probable makes a mistake due to his ability to speak Hungarian, or maybe references only his place of birth (at the time). Dezo's own words should be preferred in determining his nationality. Wladthemlat (talk) 09:51, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

What is more, the one source citing his Hungrian origin is actually the only one that can be found claiming such a thing. The majority of sources calls him either Slovak, Czech or Czech-born (please note that Czech is an often used abbrev. of Czechoslovak and the English authors were not used to distinguishing between the two nationalities). Ergo the Hungarian origin can be labeled as WP:FRINGE and should be removed. Wladthemlat (talk) 12:10, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

This sounds like speculation. What about this source which mentions him alongside "fellow-Hungarian Robert Capa"? http://fifthbeatle.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=othercharacters&action=display&thread=169&page=3 Also listen to Dezo Hoffmann on the videos on yootube, please. That doesn't sound to me a Slovak English accent.--Korovioff 22:44, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

The source you are citing obviously cites Wikipedia, you are trying to prove Wiki content by the very same Wiki content. Other than that, there are more reliable sources referring to him as Slovak or Czechoslovak than Hungarian. And to the accent - to me, it sounds EXACTLY like slovak english accent. Wladthemlat (talk) 00:22, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, Wladthemlat, but neither things look so obvious to me. And which source said that he was Slovak or Czech by ethnicity, rather than refering to where he came from? Even the quote about Capa seems to prove the opposite of what you are saying. He spoke Hungarian, we know that as a fact. Of course, born in that particular city, he could have been bi- or tri-lingual. But why you see it proved that he was Slovak and not Hungarian, I cannot grasp. And please, please change his birth date back from 1918. --Korovioff 09:16, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I won't change his birthdate as this one is sourced, the previous one was someone's wild guess. And why I see it is proven that he was Slovak? Because majority of sources say so, one of the two I provided explicitly states that he was "a Slovak by birth", the sources claiming he was Hungarian rely solely on indirect evidence (he could speak the language etc.). The Capa quote proves exactly what I am saying - Dezo did not perceive himself being a Hungarian. Wladthemlat (talk) 09:35, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

"Slovak by birth" "American by birth" these all mean that the birth took place in a particular area. An "American by birth" can still be ethnic German ethnic Japanese etc etc, but I'm sure you knew that already as your English seems good enough to know the difference. Considering the claims that he is a Slovak it seems odd that he does not even have an article on the Slovak wikipedia... It would seem that slovaks themselves would not consider him a "famous Slovak" and important enough for an article there. And let us remember that around this time, when Dezo was born the % of Slovaks was less than 50% in this area, (this was before the time of mass Slovakization), so being born in the area is not a proof that he was Slovak. And Pozsony itself was occupied by the invading Czech troops only in 1919 so in 1918 the birthplace of Hoffman was probably not under Czech control neither de facto nor de jure. Hobartimus (talk) 11:23, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your compliments on my English and yes, I know the difference.

birth - the kinship relation of an offspring to the parents [3]

What Slovak Wiki does or doesn't have, that's something i couldn't care less about in this debate, as it is utterly irrelevant.

and let us remember that around this time, when Dezo was born the % of Slovaks was less than 50% in this area, oh really? Would you mind giving us some hard numbers?Wladthemlat (talk) 00:23, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

"Wild guess" - actually 1918 is the wild guess. Let's move this issue into the chapter opened below. The above link, which you said is Wikipedia-based (it isn't) has the 1912 date, and the source linked below (dated years before the Wikipedia article) also has the day and the month. Which you have removed, to replace it with a guess in a forum.--Korovioff 12:38, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Story published in The Age in 2005, well before first version of this article: "MOST of the photos in the Images of the Beatles exhibition are by Dezo Hoffmann, a Hungarian photographer..." http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:hC3rHp6qwTsJ:www.hungarian.com.au/hungarian-articles/2005/6/2/the-dezo-factor/+Michael+Dwyer+Dezo&hl=en&gl=uk&strip=1 --Korovioff 17:15, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Photographer Alan Messer who worked in Hoffmann's studio, says in linked interview that Hoffmann was "Hungarian/Czech". (The guy obviously knows little about the region, but he remembers that that his master was Hungarian in a certain way and Czech in a certain way.) http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:s-dQquBPq5EJ:www.alanmesser.com/PRESS/NOVI_LIST_press_17.8.08.html+Dezo+Hoffmann+Czech+accent&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk Pls don't disregard. --Korovioff 11:51, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

once more about his accent: listening to the videos again, I simply can't decide. a friend says it's probably closer to Czech or Slovak, while some vowels, consonants and the rhythm sound Hungarian. a really trained expert could perhaps tell us, though in case of someone who was bilingual it may be extremely difficult. one thing in which looks more certain is that it is not a German accent, but again, if he had three languages from his birthplace (and the town had mixed population), that can "confuse" the English accent. after extensive google search, I'm no longer sure that the available sources can provide clarification - clearly he did not attribute much importance to make clear to his acquaintances which ethnicity he originally belonged to, while being a foreigner - an outsider - helped him in his work. I suspect that the only thing to decide would be if we knew more about his parents. until then it makes no sense fighting over his ethnicity like lions, we should simply say either Slovak or Hungarian according to the sources. we can rule out Czech (but we cannot completely rule out German either). does it make sense?--Korovioff 15:20, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Dezo was ever Slovakian on paper, and for a short time only. He was born in Hungary in 1912, was 8 years old when Czechoslovakia was created. He himself talked about being Hungarian in fluent Hungarian during the eighties when he contacted the Hungarian state and wanted to sell his archives. Being under communist regime it did not happen, but he could publish his book in 1982 in Budapest. He used his name Dezo which comes from the Hungarian name Dezső in all his life. He was the one who took the Beatles to Budapest Restaurant to get them a taste of Hungarian food. And he was the one who took them to a Hungarian tailor to measure them and make some new shirts. He was a friend of Robert Capa (another Hungarian photographer). In fact you can find pictures of him at the tailor in his book "With The Beatles" (ISBN 0711901112) on page 42 and he himself testifies his nationality in his book on John Lennon (ISBN 780862871970)where he states: Paul began to tutor me in English - which is rather funny - a Livepudlian teaching a Hungarian English. If the french would have taken Stratford-upon-Avon would that make Shakespeare a french? He studied in Prague and left the country for good when he was 23. The first mention of him being Slovakian-Hungarian was in Paulaer's book in 2001 long after Dezo's death. Now he became Slovakian (Hungarian even deleted from wikipedia???). Taking the land and then when the people are dead taking their nationality is disgraceful thing. Why not just believe the man himself? -Peterdi 08:13, 16 December 2016(UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Beatlesmuzeum (talk • contribs)

Date of birth

His date of birth was changed to 1918 from 1912 based on a quote from a forum. That's obviously crap. Was he sent to Abyssinia and then the Spanish civil war at the age of 18? And before that he already had jobs and spent military service (as this link shows: http://books.google.com/books?id=cszcdLpm24YC&dq=With+the+Beatles:+the+historic+photographs+of+Dezo+Hoffmann&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=NYPzBecQuG&sig=JMiXyKOWRvSx3U2WKq7iiil4EKI&hl=en&ei=uHTnSrudD87Fsgaev7XvBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false )?--Korovioff 22:35, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Please stop embarrassing yourself - the 'forum' you are bashing is an expert journal. That means it is pretty high in the hierarchy of RS. Why would his mission to Abyssinia be impossible at the age of 18? The link you provided doesn't specify a date. Until you find a reliable source with one, 1918 stays. Wladthemlat (talk) 09:42, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not an expert of the recruiting history of Czechoslovakia, but I'm pretty sure that noone under 18 spent military service there (let alone all else what Hoffmann did before going to Abyssinia). I'm not bashing the forum, I'm sure that very good photographers show up there, but the 1918 date is clearly nonsense. Yep, Czeshoslovakia was born in that year.--Korovioff 10:11, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

http://www.hhrf.org/ujszo/2000/270/kultura.htm This source, which contains the May 24, 1912 birth date, is much older than the Wikipedia article. It's about a Hoffmann exhibition in Bratislava in 2000, see last paragraph of article about the exhibition.--Korovioff 10:34, 28 October 2009 (UTC) Or look at this English-language quiz site which says Hoffmann died in 1986 at the age of 74 in London. Source is the Slovak radio.--Korovioff 13:10, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

1) According to this slovak site, which is based on Beatles po návrate z USA na londýnskom letisku v roku 1964. he was born in 1912.

2) From fotofo.sk DEŽO HOFFMANN (1912 - 1986). Retrospektíva tvorby reportéra Dezidera Hoffmanna Restrospective View of the Reporter´s Dezider Hoffmann´s Work ... (born in 1912)

3) According to the slovak wikipedia, he was born in 1912.--B@xter⁹ 17:20, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

First of all, he did not go to Abyssinia as a soldier and even a 10-year-old could be a clapper boy. Second - as per wiki policy english language journal takes higher priority than other media. Yes, an exposition about him wouldn't have been titled without a reason. However, the date cannot be changed without reliable sources.Wladthemlat (talk) 00:07, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Dear Wladthemlat, frankly, I don't see the point why you assign higher priority to chatroom comment on birth year than to Hungarian and Slovak sources which agree on the birth year, month and day. Anyway, please don't disregard the English language sources linked above, I would hate putting them down again and again. As repetition, let me call your attention again only to the following authentic text: "After national service in the army he joined Twentieth Century Fox in Paris and was sent to cover Mussolini's invasion of Abyssinia." (Link repeat: http://books.google.com/books?id=cszcdLpm24YC&dq=With+the+Beatles:+the+historic+photographs+of+Dezo+Hoffmann&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=NYPzBecQuG&sig=JMiXyKOWRvSx3U2WKq7iiil4EKI&hl=en&ei=uHTnSrudD87Fsgaev7XvBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=fals) I say noone under 18 spent military service in Czechoslovakia in the 1930s, I hope you will not deny that. Could we remove the obviously wrong birth year of 1918 based on chatroom comment, from the article, please? --Korovioff 11:41, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

"as per wiki policy english language journal takes higher priority than other media." And exactly where can I find this information? So a book written by a Noble laureate is les recognised than an article from a journalist ("has higher priority")?--B@xter⁹ 11:51, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Baxter9, it's even worse than that, the 1918 birth year is from a comment in photographer chatroom. This overwrites all the other sources which have the birth date correctly and disambiguously.

I found an external link on the French edition of this article: yellow-sub.net. "Dezo Hoffmann est décédé à Londres en 1986, à l’âge de 74 ans. Il y est enterré" which means he died in London, 1986 when he was 74 (so he was born in 1912). I dont know this site, and my french knowledge is 0.0 so I am not sure about its reliability (but it is linked from the wiki, so it could be that it is not a crap :)--B@xter⁹ 12:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

What chatroom? Is using Google that difficult? see: http://pfmagazine.com/index.aspx Wladthemlat (talk) 23:26, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Fine, thank you and sorry Wladhemlat, that's a quarterly, the original link was slightly misleading. Their 1918 birth date is still obviously wrong, please see above.--Korovioff 12:02, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

And Marian Pauer again, who wrote book about Hoffmann: "Born in Banská Štiavnica, Dežo Hoffmann moved to Žilina with his mother after the death of his father at the age of three.Here he attended primary school, learned to be a typographer at Mr. Biel, and after returning from military service in 1930 he opened a news-stand by the park where he also sold books among other things." I presume he did not have military service at the age of 12, did he? See p. 5 http://www.gallery.sk/images/katalog_LC.pdf

It is interesting to see all the comments above. I am Dezo Hoffmann's daughter. He always considered himself as Czech and used his name of Dezo. He was never in the Royal Air Force but in the Chech Army in UK. Facts: He was born on May 24, 1912 at Banska Stiavnica. I have his birth certificate. His name on the certificate is Dezider. His father's name on the birth certificate is Ludovit Hoffmann aged 30 and his mother is Kornelia Scheinova aged 21. The parents citizenship is not stated. My father died on March 29, 1986. I believe Banska Stiavnica was originally called Selmecbanya and was in Hungary. I would like to obtain a copy of Marian Pauer's book if somebody could tell me where and if there is an English version.Rochester41 (talk) 00:59, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Concede me to be an Incredulous Thomas. Why should anybody believe that your father was Dezo Hoffmann when no one knows who you are? Is it true what you are saying on the grounds that your user name is Rochester41?--Nmate (talk) 17:45, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

How do you wish me to prove this. For privacy purposes I am not giving out my married name or e-mail address on open forums. My maiden name was Dolores Nelly Hoffmann, born at Leamington Spa, Warwickshire. We lived in Leicester during WW2 and my brother is 9 years younger than me.Rochester41 (talk) 18:32, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Why do not you upload some photos about your father into

wikimedia commons legally? [4].

--Nmate (talk) 15:32, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Dethroned!

Why did the Beatles stop using Hoffman?

The 1982 book and its quotes from Hoffman suggests that he quarrelled with Lennon, who thought Hoffman was ripping them off. But any photographer of celebrities might be accused of the same thing.

Another Beatles book ('Love me Do: the Beatles' Progress', Michael Braun, 1964, p. 63) hints that Hoffman's work became a little too 'middle of the road' for the band. This is where the quote about 'Greatest photographer in the world' comes from; McCartney was explaining that their attitude to Hoffman as a photographer had changed since they first started using him, when they were new to celebrity and publicity, and thought he was the best. But they had learned a lot since then.

In time, the Fab Four pushed even George Martin aside and produced their own recordings. 2001:44B8:3102:BB00:8EB:459C:C5EA:1CB (talk) 23:01, 16 August 2019 (UTC)