Talk:Deus Ex (video game)/Archive 7

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Thoughts on the article

The article is in good shape, but it has a few issues that will keep it from attaining FA. For example, the article states that Deus Ex is a FPS/RPG, while Warren Spector had this to say in the game's Game Developer Magazine post-mortem:

"Conceptually, Deus Ex is a genre-busting game (which really endeared us to the marketing guys) -- part immersive simulation, part role-playing game, part first-person shooter, part adventure game."

He then breaks it down with the following:

"It's an immersive simulation game in that you are made to feel you're actually in the game world with as little as possible getting in the way of the experience of "being there." Ideally, nothing reminds you that you're just playing a game -- not interface, not your character's back-story or capabilities, not game systems, nothing. It's all about how you interact with a relatively complex environment in ways that you find interesting (rather than in ways the developers think are interesting), and in ways that move you closer to accomplishing your goals (not the developers' goals).


It's a role-playing game in that you play a role and make character development choices that ensure that you end up with a unique alter ego. You make your way through a variety of minute-to-minute gameplay experiences (which add up to a story) in a manner that grows naturally out of the unique aspects of your character. Every game system is designed to differentiate one player-character from another, and to allow players to make decisions that reflect their own biases and express character differences in obvious ways in the game world.


It's a first-person shooter because the action unfolds in real time, seen through the virtual eyes of your alter ego in the game world. Your reflexes and skill play an important part in determining your success in combat. However, unlike the typical FPS, Deus Ex doesn't force you to shoot every virtual thing that moves. Also unlike the average FPS, in which gameplay is limited to pulling a virtual trigger, finding blue keys to open blue doors and jumping to reach seemingly inaccessible locations, Deus Ex offers players a wide range of gameplay options.


And finally, Deus Ex is like adventure games in that it's story-driven, linear in narrative structure, and involves character interaction and item accumulation to advance the plot. However, unlike most adventure games (in which you spend the bulk of your time solving clever puzzles in a search for the next static, but very pretty, screen), Deus Ex asks players to determine how they will solve game problems and forces them to deal with the consequences of their choices."

I've worked on articles with this problem before (System Shock, Deus Ex: Invisible War), and what I did to avoid the issue was to simply call them "first-person" games. In the case of Invisible War, I set one of the genres as "multiple", with a link to the article's Gameplay section, which broke down the elements. I think that could work here, but I won't make any edits regarding it until we can come to an agreement.

Another issue is the abundance of iffy material, like this:

"When the player engages in combat the game tends to reward a tactical approach. As the player will often encounter enemies in groups, the use of cover, strafing, and "hit-and-run" tactics becomes important.

Stuff like this also runs the risk of being original research, unless there's a source out there to back this up. The gameplay section, in particular, has problems with this. Another problem is the sheer size of it--it's possibly the biggest I've ever seen, which will not go over well in FAC. A good way to eliminate these issues is to find source material--like a manual, for example--, and only type down what is covered in it. It's how I wrote the gameplay sections for System Shock and Invisible War. The reference point to use for a gameplay section is easily The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind. It is, simply put, the best I've ever seen. I tried to model Invisible War's after it, with little success.

Moving on, I'm going to put this as simply as possible: the plot section is far, far too big to make it through FAC. In fact, it's around 500 words longer than the titanic Final Fantasy VII plot section, which [[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Final Fantasy VII |barely survived FAC]], despite being incredibly well done (at the time; the article seems to have aged poorly). It needs to be trimmed down until it covers only the most important points, or we're never going to get this article to FA. The setting section is pretty good, but it needs citations and a more out-of-universe perspective. Morrowind, again, is the best place to look when trying to find inspiration.

The the Fiction subheading in the Allusions section is a bit much. Going against Wikipedia rules, it's basically an indiscriminate collection of information, in the style of a trivia section. We could probably lose Fiction entirely, and keep the other two subheadings as they are, or incorporate them both into a Development section, which we can't get to FA without.

The Reception is good, but lacking in magazine material. Where are the scores and quotations from Edge, PC Gamer, Computer Gaming World, Next Generation and Computer and Video Games? Several common FAC denizens, particularly User:hahnchen, are going to eat this article alive unless it covers a broad scope of sources. Too much is made of the GameSpot review, as well.

After these issues are taken care of, the article is going to need a copyedit from multiple users. This is typical, and it's happened to me on every single one of my FAs.

Overall, the article is pretty good, and we could probably get it to FAC within the next two weeks if we work at it. The biggest problem will be finding reference material, as the game is getting on in years, but it shouldn't be as bad as what happened to me with the System Shock article. Enough talk, though. I'm going to go put my nose to the grindstone. JimmyBlackwing 14:44, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Not an easy list of things to do, but a worthwhile one. I can set in on getting the reception section up to par. I'll probably start tackling that tonight when I can dedicate a large block of time. Someone else will have to take on the plot synopsis, as I'm a bit too close to the text. I added the bulk (pun?) of it into the article, and I'm horrible when it comes to trimming my business now. There are sources that might help with the setting section, especially in regards to pulling it into a more out-of-universe perspective.

All that said, I'm going to go ahead and edit the To-Do list up top so we have a new set of goals in mind. Consequentially 18:35, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good. I'm going to busy myself with condensing and referencing the gameplay section, once I find the sources with which to do so. I need to find my old Deus Ex manual, and see if there's anything usable in there. JimmyBlackwing 19:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Sweet, I knew you would be a big help on this JimmyBlackwing. In regard to print reviews of the game, I actually have the clippings of the PC Gamer, Computer Gaming World, and Computer Games magazine reviews which came with my copy of Deus Ex with me if you feel they would be preferable.

The "Popular culture" section is essentially the old trivia section rewritten in prose form, so I understand your feelings about it. The thing is since Deus Ex is so rife with outside references, and since they are so widely commented upon in discussion of the game, I think they at least deserve a cursory mention, even if incorporated into other sections.

I agree with you about the length of the story section, it is longer then I would like. The problem is since Deus Ex has such a long and (dare I say) convoluted plot, I think it will be quite difficult to trim it much more than it is now without it being impossible to follow. I was wondering though, If it is as unlikely to pass as you seem to suggest, why this didn't seem to have stopped Chrono Trigger when it was brought up for FAC when its plot section is actually longer.

Thanks again for your help. -- Grandpafootsoldier 04:47, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

We could remove parts of sentences that aren't essential... for example: "Using a computer beneath the DuClare Château, JC makes contact with the Illuminati leader." that sentence could easily be changed to: "In the DuClare Chateau, JC contacts the Illuminati leader." Sure, it's not much, but if there's tons of sentences like that, it could make a difference. -ZFGokuSSJ1 12:37, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

• Exactly. I have no idea how Chrono Trigger made it through with a plot section of that size, but it's an exception to the rule from what I've seen, as reading the Final Fantasy VII nomination page will tell you. I agree that Deus Ex has an extremely long and complicated plot, but as ZFGoku said, crufty little details like that will add up. With the plot sections of Halo and System Shock, I read the games' scripts until I found the most critical moments. Not every game has the luxury of an easy-to-access script, but we're in luck: someone typed down Deus Ex's. As for the reviews and pop culture references, that would be great. Those three reviews are definitely necessary, and a cursory mention of the references should be fine, particularly if we can find an interview where the developers talked about it. JimmyBlackwing 16:21, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Ethical gameplay reference

I found a couple different articles by the same person that argue for the importance of ethics in Deus Ex. I plan on incorporating one of them into the article, which do you think is the strongest? Consequentially 05:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

• Example One.
• Example Two. This is in the article right now.
  • The one currently in the article deals with the subject it is citing, while the other one deals with some of Deus Ex's other ethical systems. I would recommend that you keep using the second one for the thing it cites, while using the other for something else, when it becomes necessary. For example, the first describes how being kind or cruel can change the way NPCs respond to you, which should definitely be somewhere in the article. JimmyBlackwing 15:47, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Synopsis

Took one look through the Synopsis and managed to take it down from 1930 to 1708 words. I'm going to print it out tonight and play the red pen game. Maybe that'll get me another 200 words. Started with 1930, down to 1548. 1378 Side note on the synopsis section: how much of this needs to be referenced? I can do as much citing from the original script as you want thanks to the link at GameFAQs, but I don't know how much is usual for an article like this. Thoughts? Consequentially 22:36, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there's any standard for how many to use. When writing the Halo: Combat Evolved and System Shock synopses, I largely just followed my gut, but I used Final Fantasy VII as a general guide. That article has fallen into disrepair as of late, however, so I can't really suggest that you use it. All I can recommend is citing what you think is most important, and considering removing what doesn't fall into that category. I've found in the past that it helps in streamlining plot sections. Not everything falls under this, but it's been a good general guideline for me thus far. JimmyBlackwing 02:40, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Best Game of All Time award by PC Zone

ZFGokuSSJ1, why did you revert this addition? You said it was an unnecessary addition, but I completely fail to see how its unnecessary. Its one sentence which briefly alludes to the fact that it has received a Best Game of All Time award...something which is VERY MUCH appropriate to the first few paragraphs. Articles are intended to be tailored mostly towards people who have no clue about the subject matter, and the fact that Deus Ex got the Best Game of All Time award from PC Zone (a not-insignificant achievement) is something that a newbie to Deus Ex would find very relevant. I won't revert it yet, I'll wait to see what you have to say. If you don't reply within a day or so, I'll revert it, I believe the fact's inclusion is warranted. Dhalphir 11:34, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

If you can somehow incorporate it into the first paragraph to make it run smoother rather than just adding a whole new sentence with "Deus Ex was named the best PC game ever by PC Zone..." blah blah blah, then it would be a good addition.-ZFGokuSSJ1 16:11, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

How's this?

Deus Ex (abbreviated DX and pronounced as IPA: /ˌdeɪəsʔˈɛks/, day-uss ex) is a cyberpunk-themed first-person shooter/computer role-playing game developed by Ion Storm Inc. and published by Eidos Interactive. Released on June 22, 2000, the game received almost universal critical and industry acclaim, including being crowned Best Game of All Time in a poll carried out by UK gaming magazine PC Zone. [1], and was a frequent candidate for and winner of Game of the Year awards.[2][3][4][5] Dhalphir 01:06, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I edited it a bit to make it better, that's a lot better than the first revision you did. :)-ZFGokuSSJ1 15:31, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Hm, personally it sounds better to me keeping the Game of the Year mentions in the same sentence as the Best Game of All Time, but it sounds good in that revision too. A good compromise Dhalphir 02:31, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Audio sample

Hey everyone, I've been thinking of adding an audio sample from the theme song for the Soundtrack section. Would it be a good addition? -ZFGokuSSJ1 19:35, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

A short segment would be appropriate, especially given that the main theme was only included because one of the devs found it catchy. -- Y|yukichigai (_ramble argue ^check) 02:47, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Excessive fair use images

Just noting that someone will prolly come by and whack half the images; I suggest removing the plot section ones and they are the least essential. David Fuchs ^(talk) 00:54, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Gametap

Should it be mentioned that this game is now available free through gametap? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.169.112.254 (talk) 17:37, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Nuclear missile?

(Apologies if that has already been discussed - this page has quite a history.) Is the missile that JCD redirects at Area 51 really nuclear as stated in the article? I don't have the game installed at the moment so I can't check all the dialogues referring to it, but it seems unlikely to me that the missile is nuclear given that a) the site is very damaged but far from flattened; there is even still a tower standing, and b) JC picks up no radiations when he goes there straight after the impact. Thermaland 10:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

It was probably a conventional IRBM. I've edited the article to just say "missile". - KingRaptor 10:44, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

It definitely wasn't nuclear, and considering most of the buildings were still standing, albeit badly damaged, and there were surviving troops on the surface after the detonation, the yield was likely also very low. I'd say it was a conventional cruise missile. It's a little strange actually. I'd be inclined to agree that it's an IRBM, although IRBM's are usually small enough to be housed in/on assorted portable launching systems. The missile looks more to the scale of a Peacekeeper MX, but with said rocket having a blast yield enough to level a city, the surface of Area 51 would've been little more than a smoking smudge. It could have been a Jupiter or a Redstone, but they've been obsolete for decades already let alone still active however many decades Deus Ex is set in the future. In any case, it wasn't nuclear. Gamer Junkie 11:14, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Come to think of it. I think I remember reading a file containing something about a Minuteman missile. The fact that it's supposed to stay active until at least 2025 and that its conventional warhead breaks up into smaller clusters before impact would fit the type of superficial damage caused to Area 51. People could even survive, provided they were lucky enough to be standing in the right place when it hit. Does anybody else remember reading something about this, or am I completely off the mark? Gamer Junkie 11:29, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it definitely is a nuclear missile. That is why I changed it to read that in the first place. As for evidence, first, as can be seen in this satellite pic you get in game at the start of the mission, most of Area 51 has been destroyed, and the only buildings left standing are on the very periphery of the base and/or are reinforced bunkers. There is no way a conventional warhead could do that much damage. Secondly, and most conclusively, it says here (scroll down a bit) that it is nuclear, and this is an approved "Continuity Bible" by the developers of the game. I'm changing the sentence back to read nuclear. -- Grandpafootsoldier 19:27, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Very well, we'll go with that, but now I know the developers messed up. As a former Air Force member, I can assure you that they don't make nuclear weapons that do as little damage as shown in that photo. The Peacemaker MX I was talking about earlier has twenty-five times the destructive power of the "Little Boy" model dropped on Hiroshima, and the Peacemaker isn't even in service anymore. Actually, I believe the "Little Boy" is the weakest nuclear weapon ever created, and that thing levelled an entire city. Besides, anybody that close to the blast who wasn't immediately vapourised would have melted to puddles of meaty pulp that close to a detonation. Since the soldier you find on the surface said that groups of them survived the blast and were actually alert and focused enough to launch a counterattack against Majestic 12's troopers, that's not very realistic. Not only that, but the power is still working on the surface, whereas all electronic equipment would have been completely destroyed following a nuclear detonation. Also, conventional ICBM's and IRBM's could do that much damage, and would actually do much more damage than that if it were a modern day rocket. The old-skool Redstone, Jupiter and Thor models would probably do that level of damage, but they'd be long gone by Deus Ex's time. Anyway, if that's what the developers said, I suppose we have to go with it. Gamer Junkie 00:04, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

What you say is probably true, but remember that Deus Ex is both fictional and is supposed to take place in the future, so there are a number of other factors you have take in to account. Since it is supposed to take place 50 odd years in the future, it could be some sort of very small yield nuclear device which hasn't yet been developed (I seem to recall hearing somewhere that the military was planning on developing such a missile to deal with the underground bunkers used by the Taliban in Afghanistan). Also, as I said before, the game map and that photo are of the very edge of a much larger base (remember that according to Jock and others there had been a lot of building going on over the past few years). As for the surviving soldiers, perhaps most of them had been underground when the blast occurred and had only come out a while before you arrived. Power could also possibly have been hooked back up from the main underground bunker. But this isn't really the place to be speculating on this kind of thing anyway. The developers said "nuclear" so we just have to go with that on the page. -- Grandpafootsoldier 05:04, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

The "bunker busters" you mentioned are actually conventional warheads, tipped with depleted uranium, I believe. But in that photo, you can see the blackened central impact of the blast crater. Also, the soldier you speak with says that he was on the surface, because he mentions that he saw the "guys in black" come pouring out of the bunker doors and start shooting at the surviving soldiers. You also couldn't restore power, because an E.M.P. blast overloads and melts down the devices themselves, not just the object providing the power. You'd have to literally replace all electronic devices as well as the generator to have it function properly again. I'd say the developers are simply unfamiliar with information of a military nature. I guess that's why it's always a smart idea to contract a military advisor for such things. Gamer Junkie 06:13, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Just for all your informations, there is currently a warhead called the W54 whose yield can be dialed as low as 10 tons of TNT. Look it up, it's on Wikipedia. The idea of low-yield tactical nukes isn't new at all. The W54 was designed in 1962. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.248.137.205 (talk) 23:05, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Hate to rain on all of your nuclear-jargon debates -very impressed btw- but JC was planning on going into Area 51. For that to be possible there would have to be an Area 51 in EXISTENCE. The most probable explanation is that JC directed the missile just outside of Area 51 so that he could infiltrate the base under the cover of the fallout, thus the surface compound was screwed but it still existed so he could actually infiltrate it. -smac4494 02:10, 23 August 2011 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.100.14 (talk)

Aren't so-called "FPS/RPGs" just Action RPGs?

The article states that Deus Ex is an "FPS/RPG"...or it did until I changed it. The fact is that FPS is not a really genre unto itself. FPS is a type of game in the Shooter genre, which is itself a type of game in the Action genre. As such, "FPS/RPG" are really just "Action RPGs". Action RPGs are defined as RPG games where the combat system is in real time, often focusing on skills in reflex action. In essence, a game that combines RPG focus on character building with action gameplay. Deus Ex does just that. FPS is a type of action game focusing on shooting combat (like all shooters). RPGs are games that focus on character creation/building through stats, lvls, etc. (in Deus Ex these are skill points and mods).

Deus Ex is, by and large, an Action RPG. "FPS/RPG" is simply focusing on the type of action gameplay it employs, but the genre it falls under is already an established one: Action RPG. Therealspiffyone (talk) 15:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Well I'd hardly compare games like Deus Ex and System Shock 2 to the likes of Diablo and The Elder Scrolls. The former place much more emphasis on action and combat, with elements of RPG styles to make the game more involving and give the player a less straightforward shooter. This is not action RPG, but whatever. I guess we'll see what everybody else thinks. Gamer Junkie ^{T / C} 07:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

But why compare them only to Western-style action/RPGs like Diablo and The Elder Scrolls? Compare Deus Ex and System Shock to Japanese developed action RPGs and you'll see that the latter have as much emphasis on combat than you think. Also..."action AND combat"? Combat IS an action. Therealspiffyone (talk) 00:38, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

You're splitting hairs. Ask one thousand gamers to compare two games of a single genre and I'd bet my life you wouldn't get a single response with Diablo and Deus Ex in the same sentence. As for the Japanese games, name a few. Gamer Junkie ^{T / C} 05:15, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The term "action RPG" refers to a specific type of Japanese game involving frequent combat at close range with multiple enemies, using mixed melee and ranged attacks, in third person, plus bunches of numerical character development. Go check out Devil May Cry 4 for a real example. Action RPG != and RPG with action. They're actually closer to beat em up games. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.248.137.205 (talk) 23:07, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The game is primarily an FPS. That's the whole point of the name FPSRPG. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.92.236.229 (talk) 19:36, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Deus Ex sales figures

There's a cite tag at the top of the article requesting reference to a sentence suggesting that Deus Ex was one of the top-selling games of 2000. I went searching for it, but everything I've found suggests that Deus Ex tanked commercially, but was more successful on the PlayStation 2 following the critical acclaim it received. I think the sentence is inaccurate and should probably be removed. The Cake is a Lie ^{T / C} 11:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Jaime Reyes

There's a significant character in Deus Ex named Jaime Reyes. I noticed there's a comic book character, the Blue Beetle, that has the same name (his "real" name). This character was created after Deus Ex came out. http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Blue_Beetle_(Jaime_Reyes) Don't know if this is a coincidence or not or whether this belongs in this wiki article or that. I'm still learning wiki stuff so don't yell at me if I posted anything wrong.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.227.126.67 (talk • contribs)

In all likelihood, it is just a coincidence. It should only be noted in the article proper if there is concrete evidence that the comic book character is named after the game character, and even then it only warrants a sentence.--Drat (Talk) 06:48, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Soundtrack

Are composers of Deus Ex credited as Straylight Productions or by their individual names as the article states? --Aeternus ^(talk) 15:51, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I believe the latter is true because I don't remember the name "Straylight Productions" and I couldn't find it in the credits (audio section at 1:00). —LOL ^T/_C 17:45, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Blah Blah Blah

The name of the AI Helios and the merging of JC with it may also be a reference to Euripedes' Medea, Medea appearing at the end of the play in the sun god Helios' chariot (a machine from the gods). Continuing the seam of literature references "O" and "René" from Histoire d'O can be found in conversation in Flat 12 in Paris.

See wikinot "rumor"

If you have to use "may" then it is unsubstantiatable and thus non-encyclopaedic. 12.198.69.132 (talk) 18:04, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Non-free content

The use of non-free content in this article seems fairly excessive. Are all the files needed? Additionally, the rationales on the image pages are a little weak. This template would be helpful for a start, but a specific explanation of what the images show and why they need to be shown would be nice. J Milburn (talk) 13:17, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Reference material

While digging through the online print archive, I located the following print preview material for this game:

• Computer Games Magazine Preview
• Computer Games Magazine Preview
• Computer Games Magazine Preview
• Computer Games Magazine Feature, Part 1
• Computer Games Magazine Feature, Part 2
• Games Master UK Preview/Interview (PS2)

One or more print reviews for this game may also be found in the archive. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 16:13, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

And another source here. ZeaLitY [ Talk - Activity ] 16:07, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

• Found this, too. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 08:52, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Tjung, 5 May 2011

Deus ex machina is "God out of the machine". It isn't used in literature to describe an unsatisfying ending. It is when an author writes themselves and their characters into a corner and using the laws of their universe they created there is no way out or no way to resolve the problem realistically. So authors then use "Deus ex machina" the literary equivalent of God, some majorly powerful person/thing, impossible event or a violation of their universe rules to get the characters out the situation to allow the story to continue to the next plot point. Here is a quote from your link to "deus ex machina".

"A "deus ex machina" (Latin for "god out of the machine") is a plot device whereby a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object."

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy uses it at the end about the destruction of earth. The Life of Brian uses it to save the main character from a fall to his death. The McGuyver TV series used it all the time, the main character always had just the right stuff available to get him out of a jam. Most writers and critics say it is a sign of a poor writer to have to use/resort to such methods.

Here is how that section should read.

=== Name etymology ===
The title "Deus Ex" is derived from the Latin expression deus ex machina, literally meaning "god out of the machine". It is used in drama and literature to describe an outside force that suddenly solves the seemingly unsolvable problem(s) the characters face in an extremely unlikely or impossible way. Warren Spector, executive producer for Deus Ex, has stated the name was both meant as a reference to the various factions in the game who aspire to god-like powers, as well as a dig at the typical video game plot, which tends to be laden with "deus ex machina" artifices and other poor script writing techniques.

Tjung (talk) 04:38, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Done — Bility (talk) 05:12, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

weapons in deus ex

who removed the weapons in deus ex section.? it took ages to create that, not to mention all the other wikipedia users who spent time perfecting it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.43.91.89 (talk) 10:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

It's unneeded detail. Wikipedia is not a game guide.--Drat (Talk) 10:13, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

But it was all ready there the game guide thing is so people will add info on main things not that you should delete whats there.--Blood sliver 21:06, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Stuff like that tends not to last very long on Wikipedia, Blood Sliver. If you'd like to create an article regarding things such as weapons without it being virtually assured of deletion, I'd suggest writing it for a Deus Ex fan site of some kind. Gamer Junkie 22:25, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

fansites generally don't allow you to add such detail yourself, and apperently neither does Wikipedia anymore. Seriously, what harm is it causing? You can't say it's unrelated, it's a huge part of the game. Sometimes I think this site would be much better without people deleting stuff because they don't think it's "necessary" to the site. This site itself is not necessary. It's made to let people spread information as long as they can prove it. If someone makes a weapon section with good citations, what's the big deal? I'll tell you what the big deal is, people wanting to be internet cops. Don't have control over their own lives so they have to enforce sites like wikipedia. It's about people spreading information, and all we do is censors each other. People blame the government for that kind of stuff, but it's just humanity. that's just the way we act. Sick. 64.119.57.59 (talk) 05:18, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Emergent gameplay

This article may want to mention the emergent gameplay in the game. The Emergent gameplay article mentions:

Creative solutions

In games with complex physics and flexible object interaction it may be possible to complete in-game problems using solutions that the game designers did not foresee. Deus Ex is often cited as a game responsible for promoting the idea of emergent gameplay, with players developing interesting solutions such as using wall-mounted mines as pitons for climbing walls.

Mathiastck (talk) 19:52, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, that trick is from Half-Life. I've seen speedruns made long before DX where they used tripmines to climb barriers.

72.92.236.229 (talk) 19:30, 27 October 2008 (UTC) DE was made before half life 2 and I'm pretty sure before the first also. It would be like crediting Halo for making a stylized FPS even though Doom came out first.Also half life one didn't have a physics system like that, 2 did it to mimic (and improve upon) the one in DE. 64.119.57.59 (talk) 05:30, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Really immersive simulation?

So I know Warren Spector himself said that this game is an "immersive simulation game" beacause "Ideally, nothing reminds you that you're just playing a game -- not interface, not your character's back-story or capabilities, not game systems, nothing," but does anyone else think the game itself blatantly contradicts that?

Dialog boxes pop up to inform you that you have been awarded skill points for completing certain tasks. The skill points have no effect until you spend them to upgrade various abilities in a discrete, three-level system. A log message is shown every time you interact with something. You manage inventory all of the time, etc.

Deus Ex is one of my top 3 favorite games, but it is very game-ish. Calling an immersive simulation game, even in December of 2000, seems like a stretch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.107.0.73 (talk) 21:54, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

What does this have to do with non-free content and the article? —LOL ^T/_C 22:20, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I fixed the heading. It was a copy-paste error. olanmills (talk) 06:39, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree. I love DE, I'm still playing it but it is only imersive in a few parts. It's one of those games that always has that clunky Hud and even picking up things in the world is fun but somehow feels like using a weak "grabber gun" all in all. Maybe something as simple as no hud and simply seeing your hands picking up and holding items would change this. As much as people complain about third person style for number 3, I think it may make the game completely imersive if done right. I would love to see JC Denton or whoever actually pick up a box and drop it to climb up whatever to get to wherever...you see my point.64.119.57.59 (talk) 05:34, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

A great source for making a proper Development section, instead of the current abortion

http://www.next-gen.biz/features/making-deus-ex - I couldn't do it myself, because some genius locked the article. So someone else has to do it now. --194.145.185.229 (talk) 13:33, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

It's a good interview and can surely be used. There is no need to resort to personal ("some genius") remarks though. Nothing is stopping you from posting your proposed changes here.—  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 14:55, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Cut the section on Mods?

It might be fine to mention that there are mods released for the game (as this speaks to the game's longevity and popularity) but I don't think it's appropriate to use the main article to advertise individual mods nor do I necessarily think that we need an entire separate section devoted to mods (yes this game is modded, but it's not exactly a phenomenon in the modding community enough to warrant mention. In other words it has never produced any mods that reached DOTA or Team fortress levels of popularity). The mod section of the article, for example, just seems to be a two paragraph long plug for the Nameless Mod. I don't think we need a separate section on Mods for this game--just mention the fact that it's modded elsewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.232.42.74 (talk) 04:11, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid you will not find consensus for this. Modding of Deus Ex is notable, and even the standalone Deus Ex mods article was kept (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Deus Ex mods). —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 08:06, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Area 51 not the original final level

Area 51 was not going to be the final level. Should we add this to the article? [1]

I and others here would like to have this and other production-related stuff in the article, but at this point the length is going to make it difficult. That's one of the main issues at this time actually. -- Grandpafootsoldier 05:13, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

The level I think you are refering to is the "moon" mission which was literally just a concept. It was mentioned in The Nameless Mod but all official material has either been lost or forgotten. I couldn't find any information about it other than that mentioned on TNM. If you're interested, the mission involved another AI based on the Moon, which JC has to access. I may be mistaken. TNM said this was a replacement mission for the underwater lab mission. (need to consult the Continuity Bible) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.100.14 (talk) 01:21, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Lebedev Plot Inaccuracy

If I'm not mistaken, besides being able to choose between killing Lebedev and interrogating him, you can also kill Anna Navarre. Alex Jackson (I'm not sure that's his name, the hacker) then erases that event from the archives so don't get caught, but still Gunther Herman will suspect you of her murder. I played the game some time ago, but I'm pretty sure this was an option. 78.96.206.254 (talk) 23:37, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

You are correct. This is indeed a solution.98.226.136.46 (talk) 22:06, 9 October 2008 (UTC) The first thing I did. Call me a nerd, but I was really into creating a narrative. I thought killing any terrorist I saw (honestly disgusted by the horrible things they did to innocent people, and still feeling the same way every time I play through again) but once you are at that point where a person wants to kill another, helpless person, there is only one "right" thing to do. It's just a video game, but a book is also just a book, doesn't mean I can't enjoy the good guy doing evil things to the obvious bad person. Sorry, just my favorite part of the game. I always label it "turning point" when I save upon entering the plane. 64.119.57.59 (talk) 05:28, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

And its Alex Jacobson btw — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.220.100.14 (talk) 01:25, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Inappropriate reference to Steam on platforms

Steam is only one digital platform Deus Ex is available digitally (a mere Google search brings up at least one). It is not Wikipedia's place to recommend a commercial outlet. It would like be telling you to buy a record on iTunes when it can be bought at Amazon/equivalent. I suggest it be changed to "Digital distribution", but in my experience of changing articles on Wikipedia some retard comes along and removes the edit saying it's wrong, incorrect or against his or her personal agenda. So I'll leave it to you people. - Spence Dan 11/04

Is this still an issue or was this resolved? If it isn't done, point me in the right direction and I will make sure it gets rectified. Sephiroth⁸⁷⁸ | Talk 21:51, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

He probably means the "Steam download" line in the infobox. As long as at least one other digital outlet can be established, changing it to Online distribution shouln't pose a problem. --illythr (talk) 00:49, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

I know the post is old as hell, I just wanted to make sure. And yeah youre right, it shouldnt matter =D Sephiroth⁸⁷⁸ | Talk 01:03, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

•  Done for the record lol Sephiroth⁸⁷⁸ | Talk 01:04, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Meaning for Deus Ex?

Can we put the real meaning for "deus ex", which means "from God"? It has a meaning apart from "Deus Ex Machina". Lacon432 (talk) 12:47, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

If you can show that there is any official confirmation that that meaning is related to the name of the series, but otherwise that implies some sort of religious connection that is not there. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 14:08, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Mention of other Eidos titles...

Is it relevant to mention the other Eidos games being offered on Steam? It seems out of place. Also, the reference just goes to the Steam news page which seems like a poor reference if that was what was intended:

On March 29, 2007, Valve announced Deus Ex and its sequel would be available for purchase from their Steam service. Among the games announced are several other Eidos franchise titles, including Thief: Deadly Shadows and Tomb Raider.[54] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lifesaglitch (talk • contribs) 07:56, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

File:Methods.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Methods.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: Wikipedia files with no non-free use rationale as of 3 December 2011 What should I do? Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to provide a fair use rationale If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale, then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Deletion Review This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 12:21, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Source: Warren Spector Replay

Warren Spector has recently done a commentary on the game. It is 45 minutes long and can Link. --Harizotoh9 (talk) 19:22, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Ref. No. 27

Broken link. Was already in an archive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.71.73.46 (talk) 16:24, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Fix'd, along with several others. --illythr (talk) 18:26, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Inappropriate link removed

A link was added that seems well in excess of WP:ELNO guidelines:

• Deus Ex (video game)/Archive 7 at MobyGames

The linked page is a simple description of the game, and really adds nothing to the WP article. There are a bunch of Amazon affiliate ad links, though, which isn't really a valid use of WP, and comes perilously close to being spam. I removed it. — UncleBubba ^{( T @ C )} 22:05, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Illustrations

The two current fair use images aren't doing anything for me (one of the multiple "choices" for dealing with a situation, one illustrating in-game text). I don't see how the article is bettered by having these visualized. Even a single shot of the actual gameplay with the HUD and whatnot would be better, in my book. As for possible free use, I'm going to contact Eidos with fingers very crossed—any ideas on how to contact Warren Spector or the other high-profile devs on the project? (The primary intent would be photos of the dev team.) I'm happy to do the emailing—just not sure on how and whom to contact czar ♔ 04:55, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the fair use image is bad. It should be replaced ASAP. As for free photos, I would recommend just grabbing photos of the two key people involved in the game: Warren Spector and Harvey Smith. Commons has a wealth of photos of Spector, and one of Smith. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 05:49, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Source removal discussion

Instead of creating separate headings, I'm going to drop all source-related discussions here where they can be discussed (or not)

• I removed the Adrenaline Vault review and mentions since it's listed as situational reliability at WP:VG/RS and there are better sources available, unless someone wanted to make a case for it, particularly for use in sourcing sections of gameplay. (It doesn't help that the main hits for the author and site title are this WP article and other mentions of the Deus Ex review.) The site was down for me, but the archive worked. czar ♔ 05:19, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

• VG/RS states that Adrenaline Vault's reliability should be demonstrated when citing its post-comeback articles. It clearly points out that AVault was a "premier" site during its original run in the '90s. The links could be replaced with higher quality ones, but AVault is a strong source in general. Which is again good, because they probably have a lot of good material on Deus Ex. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 05:49, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

The VGRS description is a bit more vague than that, I think. Was it actually a premier site? Because it was only called that once in the discussions and it wasn't clear when that editor thought the heyday was over or when it switched hands. When I looked up the review author, I couldn't find next to anything. I restored the content, but with reservations. I'd feel better if we sourced it to an Internet Archive version when the site had a reliable editorial policy czar ♔ 06:17, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

AVault was a pretty big deal in the '90s and early '00s. I'm not sure how I could demonstrate that conclusively, but, if a reliability issue arises at some point, I'll give it my best shot. However, I don't think we actually need the AVault review specifically, given that we have access to a wealth of hyper-notable magazine and newspaper reviews. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 06:33, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

• Removed this one since it was a forums page but it did mention an IGN article that I am currently unsure whether it is already in use or not. The link seems to have been replaced by another list so might want to check its archive. GamerPro64 05:27, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Archives

I found the old archives, if you were curious why the history cut off at 2007. For some reason they were hidden under the series talk page. I also set up auto-archiving czar ♔ 06:41, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

deusex-machina.com

[2] Has this site been discussed as reliable elsewhere? I didn't spend too long on it, but I couldn't find an editorial policy or anything that would otherwise qualify the site's reliability as more than a usual fansite or blog. czar ♔ 04:46, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

The site is run by the Through the Looking Glass fan community. Articles hosted on TTLG have been in many of my FAs, and almost all of my GAs. The source you removed could certainly be replaced with a better one, but a TTLG link should not be removed simply on the grounds that it's a fansite. Which is good, because deusex-machina.com hosts a ton of exclusive interviews. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 05:49, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

How has the source been classified as reliable instead of a fansite? Does it have an editorial policy or is it run by some transparent standards of quality? Has there been discussion of the site on one of your FA/GAs such that there is consensus for its reliability? czar ♔ 06:25, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

TTLG's reliability is largely situational, but articles on it have been cited by journalists and academic writers. I've also seen them used in a book or two. That's why they were considered okay in my FAs. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 18:16, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Axing pop culture allusions section

Seems like a prettier version of a Trivia section. I say cut it. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 05:52, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Archived it below, for posterity, or if there's anything worth saving czar ♔ 06:04, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

The article needs a shorter version of this, under a Trivia or any other relevant heading. It is an important and charming aspect of the gameplay, that the game references novels that are in turn related to the story or setting. I have looked up the game's page, just to check again which novels the game had referenced, and was surprised the whole section was just cut. This section is indeed relevant probably even beyond trivia. 80.254.158.124 (talk) 14:45, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

We don't do trivia, unless other sources have noted that aspect. It is, to some extent, original research, and content better suited for something like TV Tropes. --MASEM (t) 14:47, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

or Wikia, most likely czar ♔ 15:21, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

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