Talk:Deftones

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October 7, 2016	Peer review	Reviewed
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Proposed genre change

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

SpaceHelmetX1 has questioned the presence of experimental rock in the genre parameter of the infobox. I have reverted them twice, hopefully directing them to discuss the topic here. Their main reasoning is relatively sound here, in my opinion; they contend that the genre uses a single source in the article, and, though only tangentially, that the article ought to conform to Template:Infobox musical artist, which recommends the use of two to four genres. My response to the latter reasoning is that is not always possible, and my understanding of the documentation is that is not policy, but a guideline, not necessarily needing to fall within those confines if four is insufficient to convey an accurate array of information on the band's sound.

The other reason that led me to be concerned was that this label has been present in the infobox pretty much the entirety of my editing career of 11 years, before I ever took it to GA. Not that that matters a whole lot in the grand scheme of things, but I figured that such a change should be talked about to confirm that we're doing the right thing here. One person should not do that suddenly without notifying the community.

In the past, the genre parameter for Deftones has been a point of relatively hot contention, so I want to ask for thoughts from the community on this change before one user makes a decision on content that is, in fact sourced, though maybe overshadowed by others. Personally, I have no attachment to the label and would be fine with removing it, as honestly I think the other four genres present do a good job already, but again, the potential for objections is simply too great. mftp dan ^oops 14:19, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Another note: I expressed this same sentiment, favoring removing the label, under my previous username above. mftp dan ^oops 14:23, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The five genres listed seem like they have everything covered without being excessive. There are so many genres listed in the body of the article and the ones in the infobox are the primary ones. I do agree with SpaceHelmetX1 that experimental rock needs more sources. If no more sources can be found may I suggest: Alternative metal, art rock, shoegaze, post-hardcore, and, nu metal (early). They have more than one album that is described as post hardcore and it's supported by three sources. These genres provide coverage without being excessive. Bowling is life (talk) 15:09, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That should be a separate discussion. But, if I'm interpreting you correctly, you would be in favor of removing experimental rock? mftp dan ^oops 15:14, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

What the Template:Infobox musical artist recommends is the use of two to four genres. I understand that the documentation is not a policy, but a recommendation. Ideally, any artist's infobox should have a max. of four genres, but it may have five, six, seven... genres. First of all, I have nothing for or against the "experimental rock" label, but comparing with the others in the infobox, all genres have at least three refs, only "experimental" has a single source, for that reason I think it should be removed for now. The other four: alt-metal, art rock, shoegaze and nu metal (early) describe the band's sound in a nutshell. SpaceHelmetX1 (talk) 15:42, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Please be sure to follow WP:BRD in the future, especially on things like this, which are neither unsourced nor urgent to take care of. Sergecross73 msg me 16:14, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think those do a good job too with what we have now. To present the other side of the historical argument, I believe the reason the label had such rapport in the past is because it was a relatively neutral, encompassing term of the other labels, but I'm not really a fan of that line of thinking when it's dwarfed in source quantity. I think "art rock" does the same job "experimental rock" does to paint Deftones' picture, but with greater sourcing support. mftp dan ^oops 16:21, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that genres like post-hardcore are ahead of experimental rock in this case due to the number of sources that mention the band as post-hardcore.

In fact, I think "experimental" should be removed from infobox due to the low number of refs (1) that associate the band with the label when compared to other genres that are also in infobox like nu metal, art rock, and shoegaze, which appear more frequently. SpaceHelmetX1 (talk) 17:31, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. One source might not end up cutting it. With low references, while every other genre has more sources (aside from a few that have a single source), I support the removal of "experimental rock" from the genres in the infobox. However, it is mentioned in "musical style", so it can remain in that section. HorrorLover555 (talk) 17:39, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Although my status of adding better supported genres like post-hardcore is neutral, I support removing experimental rock from the genre listing per the nom. and the above. —Sparkle and Fade (talk • contributions) 23:04, 23 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

As I noted once above, the post-hardcore thing should be a different discussion. Experimental rock was my only intended talking point. In any case, I'm seeing a rough consensus forming here. I'll give it until tomorrow to see if I can get other opinions, for or against, but if nothing dissenting comes tomorrow I'll proceed with the change. No need to wait so long on an issue like this one, the engagement has been very good here. mftp dan ^oops 00:15, 24 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

As usual, I want to point out that the infobox template instructions tell us to list two to four genres. I think we should keep experimental but lose nu metal because it is noted to be "early" in the band's career. Losing nu metal leaves us with four genres. Binksternet (talk) 00:31, 24 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Experimental rock does not have enough support to be included in the infobox. However, nu metal is heavily sourced so removing it makes no sense. Also, I'm pretty sure that two to four genre thing is just a guideline. Many articles have more than four genres like Michael Jackson which has nine genres and it's a featured article. Maybe: Alternative metal, art rock, shoegaze, and nu metal (early). That provides enough coverage. Bowling is life (talk) 01:00, 24 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Due to the huge number of refs that mention the band as nu metal, I think the genre should stay in the infobox. I believe that removing nu metal or any other genre from the infobox should be discussed in a new topic and not here now. In this topic we are discussing exclusively whether or not "experimental" should stay in the infobox. As I said above, I believe it should be removed because of the low number of sources (1) that classify the band as "experimental rock" when compared to the others in the infobox that have at least three refs, nu metal for example appears five times. I do agree with Bowling is life, maybe alt-metal, art rock, shoegaze, and nu metal (early) is a good summary of Deftones' sound. But I also think it's important to point out that they're cited as post-hardcore more than once. SpaceHelmetX1 (talk) 14:23, 24 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Nu metal shouldn't be removed, as there are sufficient amount of sources that support it, so yes, that should be a future discussion. In regards to the genre of "experimental rock", I concur on it being removed as I had stated above. There is a previous discussion that covered on a lot of the genre(s) that were noted from this archived discussion here. HorrorLover555 (talk) 17:11, 24 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Bink, as I noted above, that should not be treated as a policy, but a guideline. It also is not the priority at the moment (although if it results in removal, it would be in line with the template recommendations), rather, we're assessing the merits of including one genre, rather than adding another in its place or removing a different one. In regards to removing nu metal, that would mean removing something associated with what the band is best known for - although they have long moved past it, some in this very article stating starting with White Pony - their albums continued to be associated with that label up through their self-titled 2003 album (that's all of their certified albums), never mind how many we have sourcing the band itself. It's too important to remove. mftp dan ^oops 16:12, 24 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'm seeing a reasonable consensus here, and I have gone ahead and implemented the community's decision. Thank you for the feedback. Any further discussions of other genres can be in another section/discussion. mftp dan ^oops 19:16, 27 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.