Talk:Dawaro

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Article keeps being changed

The article keeps being altered to say that it was an Oromo sultanate which is false. This was a 10th century Somali Muslim state that was allied to Ifat and I have even included a source that mentions the Oromo migrations into Dawaro during the 16th century. Jarso is a clan that was absorbed by Oromo, but it doesn't mean they were originally Oromo. Oromo migrations began in the 16th century, Dawaro could not have been Oromo. Please stop altering the article with unsubstantiated claims Lostglowlight982 User talk:Limegreencoral (talk) 14:30, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Jarso are Oromo the Jarso don't claim to be Somali, and i personally believe that this is just a made up theory. According to Oromos the Jarso were always oromo and was the son of Dagga Nevertheless Arab faqih along with Mohammed Hassen record Oromos in Dawaro that is why I have reverted your edits. Lostglowlight982 (talk) 16:03, 22 December 2022 (UTC) @Limegreencoral:[reply]

We should use Wikipedias dispute resolution and get a third party opinion if we cannot find a resolution. As it stands now the article keeps being reverted back and forth between us two editors. I am looking at old versions of this article and it was always labelled as a Somali sultanate. So since you as a user are the one who is changing it from what it usually was, leave the article the way it is for now and I will go through the Wikipedia channels and request a third opinion so we can resolve this. Limegreencoral (talk) 21:25, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Alright seems civil but I think we should also discuss on here about 0ur opinions. @Limegreencoral: talk) Limegreencoral (talk · contribs) its taking to long I think we should resolve our selfs

The Dawaro Sultanate and the Dawaro Region

Why has this been changed? Declare your points here of why this has been the cause. Replayerr (talk) 15:51, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Replayerr There is very little evidence of a "Sultanate of Dawaro" existing. None of the sources that were referenced here in the old version[1] state the existence of such an entity. Dawaro was a region that was briefly independent at times, this violated the WP:N so I changed the title and added more sources/content to reflect that. محرر البوق (talk) 20:59, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Replayerr Ok I looked at your edits and now I have a problem with them. First of all al-Umari's report on Dawaro has already been provided so there was no reason to add them again. Secondly, J. Spencer Trimmingham clearly says that the independence of Dawaro ended after Amda Seyon's conquest (assuming you have full access to that book), by the reign of Zara Yaqob Dawaro became a firmly Christian Ethiopian province with little to no autonomy. [2](pg 303)[3](pg 133) This is problematic because the only time in history where Dawaro was described as being independent was during Amda Seyon's conquests, we have very little information about this region before it's incorporation into the Ethiopian Empire. So your insistence that Dawaro was a "kingdom" when in reality it was almost certainty a province is perplexing. محرر البوق (talk) 21:33, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Multiple academic sources state that there was a kingdom? What is better? That you claimed it was apart of "Ifat Sultanate" before Amda Seyon's conquest? It seems like you also disregarded Al-Maqrizi who vividly states it to be a kingdom itself with their own monarch. This was prior to its "incorporation".

It was a kingdom just like Bale and Hadiya. Replayerr (talk) 21:46, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This was also quoted from Al-Maqrizi's book "Historia Regum Islamiticorum in Abyssinia" not Al-Umari. Replayerr (talk) 21:49, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So your insistence that Dawaro was a "kingdom" when in reality it was almost certainty a province is perplexing.

It does seem perplexing to a person who doesn't read his sources properly.

In Historia Regum Islamiticorum in Abyssinia by Al-Maqrizi

Refer to Page 82.

Regnum Dauaru

"Ceterum hoc regnum regno Aufat adiacet."

He explicitly states that it is a kingdom that borders Ifat. I am not here to play games with someone who doesn't even have basic knowledge on this topic. Replayerr (talk) 22:00, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Replayerr Al Maqrizi was most likely quoting Al Umari report, which is he known to do[4]. Both of those quotes literally say the exact same things about Dawaro so it should not be repeated nevertheless, I didn't disregarded it, your literally just refusing to read the article properly because I already included that it. I never denied that Dawaro was independent at times, but for the vast majority of it's documented history it was not independent. The only thing we know about this so called kingdom was that it was ruled by a Muslim named Hadyara and was conquered by Amda Seyon in the 14th century, that's it. This violates Wikipedia's notability requirements so I expanded it to include the entire history of Dawaro. Please read some of Wikipedia's rules before you make comments like that WP:GNG محرر البوق (talk) 22:17, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"so called kingdom". The kingdom existed and always has. You are going against the academic consensus here. Even the books you use from Pankhurst, Trimingham and others state it was such. Replayerr (talk) 22:34, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

FYI according to Taddesse Tamrat Dawaro was nomially apart of the Ifat Sultanate [5] so yes it is better, also proving that the existence of this so called "kingdom of Dawaro" is questionable at best. محرر البوق (talk) 22:25, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You see how you use the word "nominally". Ifat/Adal was known as the sultanate that claimed to be the Muslim hegemony over all Muslim states after Showa's defeat.

Al-Maqrizi's report practically refutes this claim by declaring they were two different kingdoms that were adjacent to each other.

Stated here.

"Ceterum hoc regnum regno Aufat adiacet."

"Moreover, this kingdom is adjacent to the kingdom of Aufat."

A nominal claim doesn't even mean it is apart of Ifat to begin with. Replayerr (talk) 22:32, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Replayerr You keep quoting Al Maqrizi book like its the bible and debunks everything, first of all on Wikipedia we prefer secondary sources over primary sources WP:PRIMARYCARE. We do NOT use primary sources to establish general notability like what your currently doing, we exclusively use secondary sources. I already acknowledged that Dawaro was at one point it's own independent polity, however the information about this kingdom is not enough to justify it's own article, another article about the "Kingdom of Adal" was deleted for similar reasons[6]. Hence, I expanded it to include the entire history of Dawaro. Pankhurst does not describe it as a kingdom, that is false, he describe it as a province situated south of Fatager on pg 67 of Ethiopian Borderlands, he even gives calls the ruler of Dawaro a "governor" obviously suggesting that they weren't even independent at the time of Amda Seyon. Trimmingham describes Dawaro as being a Muslim state that was situated around modern day Arsi province, the only thing he mentions about this principality was that it fought against Amda Seyon alongside several other Muslim states, most of whom don't even have their own articles. محرر البوق (talk) 23:11, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Trimingham’s book includes Al-Umari’s account that it as one of seven Muslim kingdoms in Abyssinia. Isn’t Whiteway’s translation of Castanhoso a “primary source” like the Latin translation of Al-Maqrizi? Replayerr (talk) 08:21, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It says I can use a primary source in conjunction with a secondary source which I have. Replayerr (talk) 08:23, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

“The Muslim kingdoms in Abyssinia were seven in number: Awfat, Dawaro, Arababni, Hadya, Sharkha, Bali and Dara” Replayerr (talk) 08:34, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Your logic assuming it as a "province" thus means you declare that the Hadiyya Sultanate, Bale kingdom and others don't exist? What makes Dawaro different? It became a Christian frontier province very later on and the sources I've read from your article edits are full of errors. Replayerr (talk) 09:57, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Replayerr I’m getting signals that you still don’t understand what my main point is. My point is not whenever a “kingdom of Dawaro” existed or not, what I’ve been telling you over and over again is that the information about this Dawaro polity is not sufficient enough to justify its own article. This violates Wikipedia’s guidelines WP:GNG so I expanded this article to include information about the entire history of Dawaro, you can add information about the kingdom of Dawaro here but this article includes the full history of Dawaro aswell so the header should be kept to “Dawaro” to reflect that. Hadiya and Bali were also provinces aswell although Hadiya is one of the best documented regions in southern/eastern Ethiopia so it has enough sources for it to have its own article. Whiteway’s translation of Castanhoso is a primary source however Whiteways book also adds in his own work into it aswell and it isn’t just Castanhoso’s translation, so I guess generally speaking that source is secondary محرر البوق (talk) 17:21, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Do you want to split the article with headers that differentiate the periods of when it was an Ethiopian province and a principality/state? I have no problem with the history within the Ethiopian kingdom. Just the erasure of its history prior to that. Replayerr (talk) 18:15, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to. I don’t see a problem with that محرر البوق (talk) 00:54, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have seen that you altered the article surrounding the size of Dawaro. It may seem that your comprehension surrounding the source attached to the statement is poor. I will help make it easier for you to understand.

The quote is from the book The Portuguese Expedition to Abyssinia in 1541–1543 by Miguel de Castanhoso, translated by R. S. Whiteway.

In page 230, it states that

In fact, he had lost three large kingdoms, two of them, Bale and Doaro, as large as Castille and Portugal and Hadia alone as large as all France.

So your error which I boldened for you is referring to the Hadia kingdom not Dawaro. Please refrain from using original research.

It also compares Bale to Castille and Dawaro to Portugal. Replayerr (talk) 12:59, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]