Talk:David Hein

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Notability and scope

Thanks Hungarian Phrasebook for starting this article. I was getting things together to write Irene Sankoff and noticed that she's notable for mostly the same things as Hein. Is Hein independently notable of Sankoff, in which case I should create the separate article, or does it make more sense to cover them as a writing duo, say, Irene Sankoff and David Hein? Ibadibam (talk) 20:47, 1 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing no discussion, I'm going to start up a move request below. Ibadibam (talk) 20:39, 26 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 26 February 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 17:36, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

David Hein → Irene Sankoff and David Hein – Sankoff and Hein do not appear to be independently notable of each other. There doesn't seem to be any reason to have separate articles, nor is there a reason to have one on Hein and not Sankoff (as is the case now). The contents of Category:Writing duos indicate a strong precedent for articles of this nature. Ibadibam (talk) 23:12, 26 February 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. —usernamekiran(talk) 08:44, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I'm not sure we handle such cases at all consistently, but see no reason to doubt that Hein is notable. The category quoted shows some duos treated as proposed, some not. Andrewa (talk) 07:16, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Hein is absolutely notable. But what is he notable for, that Sankoff is not? Ibadibam (talk) 01:23, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - See #Discussion. Andrewa (talk) 01:56, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

This raises a valid point. The members of most notable duos (say Peter and Gordon, Flanders and Swann, Sonny and Cher) are both themselves notable. But how do we measure this notability, particularly in cases such as this one, when both appear in many reliable sources but mainly or exclusively in the context of the duo? This needs to be carefully thought out. It has the potential for unintended implications for many other duos. Andrewa (talk) 07:28, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's an interesting idea, but the examples you've given are in the minority. Of the 49 duos represented in the top level of Category:Writing duos, 33 have no articles on the individual members; 14 have articles on both; 2 have articles on one but not the other. And what implications might it have? I go to WP:GNG on this one. A notable topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources. In this case, what topic or topics have received significant coverage in reliable sources? Has Hein received coverage alone? Has Sankoff? Ibadibam (talk) 01:23, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Then if Hein is absolutely notable, there should be an article on him. If Sankoff is not but the duo is (as you seem to believe), then ideally we should have an article on the duo too (but not on Sankoff). Until this second article is written, the current name with a redirect seems perfectly acceptable.

The fact that these examples are in a minority is irrelevant. As you have pointed out, there are three possible scenarios for notable duos: Both individually notable, one individually notable and not the other, and neither individually notable. The question is, which of these three does this duo represent? And you seem to have answered yourself that it's the second: One is individually notable but not the other.

But I do stand corrected on my assumption that The members of most notable duos... are both themselves notable. That is, as you say, not supported by the evidence. I confess surprise, but not astonishment.

Anyway, my main point remains how do we measure this notability, particularly in cases such as this one, when both appear in many reliable sources but mainly or exclusively in the context of the duo. Perhaps my examples weren't the best, but the point is not so much whether we do have separate articles as whether we should. Take Peter and Gordon, we have separate articles on both, although Gordon Waller might not even pass GNG without the Peter and Gordon fame. But now Google Peter Asher, who is also highly notable as a manager and record producer, and of my first few pages of ghits all but one highlight Peter and Gordon as his main or even only claim to fame. Andrewa (talk) 06:33, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.