Talk:Collard Greens & Gravy

Possible conflict of interest

During March 2018, @Ian.Collard10:provided about 12 edits to this article, some of which were reverted (see Revision history). The user name implies a connection to one of the members of the trio and hence may constitute a conflict of interest. I ask the editor to reply on this talkpage.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 00:56, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Hi please reveal your connection to the band and your real name. I believe you are related to one of the band members Ian.Collard10 (talk) 02:04, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Please check your facts. The band did not cease in 2011. Ian.Collard10 (talk) 11:26, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Reversion of edits in September 2018

@Ian.Collard10::I have reverted your recent edits (see here). The content you removed was verified by reliable source(s), you also removed reference tabs, which show the source being used.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 05:30, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

@Ian.Collard10::I have reverted your recent edits. Once again, the content you removed was verified by reliable source(s). You also added new material which was not supported by any suitable references.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:44, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

please refrain from adding false information to this page. Can you please reveal your identity, your relationship to the band and your “reliable sources”? Ian.Collard10 (talk) 02:08, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

I have no relationship to the band. The reliable sources I have used are all shown in the article. Please do not continue your disruptive edits: do not change content, which has been verified and replace it with content with no reliable sources.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 08:36, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Shaidar Cuebier you are clearly associated with the band. Can you please get your facts right if you insist on continuous disruptive edits. Can you please stop this horrible troll behaviour and reveal your real identity Ian.Collard10 (talk) 09:59, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Could you please discuss which "facts" you consider to be incorrect? Can you please provide reliable sources for your disruptive editing? Please do not add contentious material without provided such sources.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 10:18, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

It is incorrect that the band broke up in 2011

Comments on this page about the band breaking up in 2011 are incorrect. The band continued and celebrated there 20 years together at performance att the Spotted Mallard in 2015. Ian.Collard10 (talk) 12:10, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Ian McFarlane in his second edition of Encyclopedia of Australian Rock and Pop (2017) on page 105 states, "Collard Greens & Gravy broke up in 2011 and the singer formed Three Kings..." Do you have a reliable source for your claim?

shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 13:38, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Here is an article written about the bands 20 th anniversary concert

http://www.beat.com.au/music/collard-greens-gravy Ian.Collard10 (talk) 23:27, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

The reference is already in the article per <ref name="Bylok-Collard">{{cite news | last = Bylok-Collard | first = Avrille | date = | title = Collard Greens and Gravy | work = Beat Magazine | publisher = Furst Media | url = http://www.beat.com.au/music/collard-greens-gravy | accessdate = 1 September 2018 }}</ref>. It is used to support the original line-up and confirm a quote by Collard on the meaning of the group's name.

It mentions a 20th anniversary concert, however there are three problems in verifying the claim that the band were an ongoing concern from 2011 to 2016:

1. I can't find any date for the article: when was it published?
2. Was the Spotted Mallard gig a one-off performance for an otherwise disbanded/retired group?
3. The author's name is Avrille Bylok-Collard, given that last name, is this person related to the band's lead singer? If so, this could be a conflict of interest.

Given these concerns, I believe McFarlane to be more reliable of the two sources. This is insufficient to change his contention that they disbanded in 2011.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 04:51, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

The writer is not related to the singer t

This was not a one off performance. Here is anadd for a 2014 gig

http://www.thepostofficehotel.com.au/gigs/2014/10/17/collard-greens-gravy Ian.Collard10 (talk) 07:32, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Video dated from 2015 talking about the 20th anniversary performance Ian.Collard10 (talk) 11:27, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Video from 2013 Ian.Collard10 (talk) 11:31, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Neither the ad nor the two videos are independent or reliable sources. We need to find a better source than these.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:56, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

I have refactored this section to thread it and avoid list gaps, in both cases to improve readability and accessibility. The changes can be seen here. What follows is lengthy, but it basically comprises two parts: (1) a report of my research and (2) advice for Ian.Collard10 regarding what they may be able to do to address these problems.

Now, on the matter of Collard Greens & Gravy (CG&G)'s apparent 2011 break up and 2017 reformation, I am having trouble verifying this myself. I do not have access to the McFarlane encyclopedia source above, so I cannot verify the claims it supports. I have found no evidence anywhere else that CG&G broke up in 2011 (or ever), either. I have found evidence that the band was active from 2011 to 2017, though, with multiple fan-recorded performances from that timespan being available on YouTube and elsewere, performance schedules listing them in the lineup at various points in those six years, and other similar evidence. I have also seen the band described with regularity as consistently performing since 1995 with no mention of a lapse, which at least implies ignorance of any such breakup by those sources.

If CG&G were privately anticipating a breakup in 2011, then it's interesting that they were listed in the final lineup to perform at Bluesfest 2011, as reported in March 2011 and documented in the April 2011 edition (PDF, p. 24) of The Tweed Shire Echo, a short-lived independent environmentalist paper that regularly published between 2008 and 2012. CG&G's April 2011 performances were also documented at Concert Archives. They also performed multiple times in May 2014 at Broadbeach, Queensland for its 2014 music festival (also mentioned at The Setlist Wiki, yes I know wikis are unreliable). If the band split up in 2011 and Ian Collard went his own way, then why is the ghost of this band—Ian included—haunting music venues the entire time it was supposedly dead? Yes, it appears Collard did form a supergroup called Three Kings in 2011 (as the band's own site claims), but this seems to be more a case of Collard being a member of multiple bands at once than of him removing the greens from the gravy. Collard also apparently released a solo album in 2014, yet there is no evidence that he abandoned Three Kings (or CG&G) to pursue a solo career.

With all this said, I am honestly doubting whether McFarlane was correct even if his encyclopedia claims as much. Perhaps he mistook Collard's forming the Three Kings as indication that CG&G was over—a reasonable interpretation, after all, given that is how these situations usually transpire among musicians. Whatever the case, the biggest problem now is the fact that almost everything I said above counts as original research, so it cannot be included in the article as a challenge to what McFarlane apparently asserted. We can qualify the claim of the breakup with "According to Ian McFarlane in Encyclopedia of Australian Rock and Pop (2nd edition, 2017)..." and expand the information about CG&G's activities during that 2011–16 period so long as we can reliably source it, however, and then let the readers decide for themselves. That seems to be the best that can be done here, at least as far as us editors can do. I'll get to work on expanding the article to include that information, but there is not much I can include because the reliable sourcing just doesn't seem to be there.

Ian.Collard10, if you are indeed the Ian Collard of CG&G, I recommend you (or your agent) contact McFarlane about this issue and inform him of this alleged error in his work. Perhaps a new edition will be published with a correction. Regardless, it may be useful to specify on the record at some point during an upcoming interview, or otherwise get published in some reputable source that has an editorial board which factchecks its content, your assertion that CG&G never split up. If you clarify the history of the band in a way that we can cite to a reliable source, preferably a secondary one that is independent of your groups and activities, then we can probably add it in the article as such.

We cannot do that simply because you say so here, though, even if you were to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you are indeed the Ian Collard of CG&G—that is, unless we don't mind jeopardizing our accounts here for gross incompetence. This is because of our editorial restrictions as defined by Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Wikipedia is not a reliable source, so our purpose as an encyclopedia is to be a summary of all the world's knowledge according to reliable sources. This sourcing is crucial because it allows our readers to verify the claims in the articles and read further to make up their own minds. Sometimes, those reliable sources are wrong or factually inaccurate, but without other reliable sources to counter them, we are stuck in our duty to ensure verifiability, not truth. Yes, this may seem odd (and likely very frustrating for article subjects), but this is a consequence of the constraints we have to handle as editors.

The best way you can help improve this article, beyond the fact that you are effectively a subject-matter expert who probably knows where we can find sources (please tell us!), is to get out there and create some reliable sources for us to cite. Websites associated with you and bands you're in, user-generated sites like wikis (including Wikipedia), and fan blogs at Blogger or wherever are all generally unreliable and questionable sources that we are unable to use with few exceptions. Local newspapers and music magazines are generally acceptable, though. If nothing else, you can at least leverage your identity to push for corrections in the sources we do cite which make inaccurate claims about you and CG&G, such as by contacting Ian McFarlane himself (or his agent) or the publishers of his work, Allen & Unwin for the first edition and Third Stone Press for the second. Without good sourcing, though, our hands are tied here, even if the "good sourcing" we are already citing is being used to support claims that are actually incorrect. I hope you understand. —Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 15:53, 4 September 2018 (UTC); slightly edited at 16:00, 4 September 2018 (UTC); correction at 20:57, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

I have added the information I stated above about the Byron Bay Bluesfest 2011 and Blues on Broadbeach 2014 performances and attributing the 2011 breakup claim, Ian.Collard10 and Shaidar cuebiyar. I'm not sure about what to do with the 2011 breakup claim at the top, both in the lead and in the infobox, though. Would removing it in the lead paragraph be an undue removal? Would specifying the years active as "1995–present" be problematic due to the McFarlane source, even though other sourcing in the article clearly demonstrates activity between 2011 and 2017? If it would be, what about a note at the "1995–2011" part providing some explanation? Since you're the regular here, Shaidar cuebiyar, what do you think? Might this be worth bringing to a noticeboard? —Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 20:01, 4 September 2018 (UTC);

Also, Ian.Collard10, minor correction: the second edition of McFarlane's work was published by Third Stone Press; the first edition was Allen & Unwin. —Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 20:57, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Nøkkenbuer, I am willing to remove any reference to disbandment in 2011, I am also looking for a reliable source for their continuation. Like you I've found unreliable sources for their performances during the time indicated. However, Ian.Collard10 has indicated, in other edits, that they the group did disband in 2016 at about the time of Bridges' death in September. According to Ian.Collard10 Shortte did not continue with the group. I will undertake to change this in the article and thank you for your timely intercessions.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 22:22, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

References