Talk:Chokutō

Photo?

Ken double-edged straight sword, Kofun period, 5th century. This is the earliest type of Japanese sword. It was derived from Chinese prototypes, and was in use from the 3rd to the 6th century, until the single-edge straight sword started to prevail. Excavated in Eda Funayama Kofun, Kyushu.

Japanese straight swords, 6-7th century, Kofun period.

Hilts of Japanese straight swords, Kofun period, 6-7th century.

Top: Two Chinese swords of the Sui Dynasty. The second one has a P-shaped scabbard mount that is said to be derived from the swords of the Sarmatians and Sassanians, and served as a prototype for the Japanese slung sword (Tachi). Bottom: Japanese sword with scabbard, Kofun period, 6th century.

Thanks, excellent article. Is it possible to get a photo? --lk 01:32, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

There is an obvious problem in the last paragraph of this article, fundamentally here:

"....However, being primarily a combat weapon, battlefield conditions would seem to render the subtle advantages or disadvantages of either to almost nil. Of far more relevance would be the general size and quality of the blade, strategy, armor, and tactics employed; i. e., in any sort of combat engagement, the weapons being roughly equal, the curvature of the blade is about as immaterial as the clothing styles of the fencers...... I will latter explain why.--114.153.192.74 (talk) 23:09, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Here are some photographs. Feel free to insert them in the article. Per Honor et Gloria ✍ 12:50, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

References

Same as tachi (大刀)?

Are these the same as tachi (大刀) (not 太刀!)? If yes, it should be mentioned in the article. bamse (talk) 18:03, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes! Oda Mari (talk) 07:45, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Hm, but the article states: Chokutō is a type of Japanese sword that dates back to pre-Heian times. Chokutō were made in later periods, but usually as temple offering swords., which would include pre-Heian swords as far as I understand. bamse (talk) 10:48, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Tachi(大刀) are pre-Heian or ancient japanese swords" developed from Han Dynasty models. By rule of thumb Tachi(大刀) are straight, literally Chokutō, in Japanese. Ancient Chokutō were strictly worn hanging with their cutting edge facing down. Thus by the way they had to be drawn and their intrinsic design Chokutō are functionally defined as hacking swords.

Tachi (太刀)　are Heian and post-Heian swords which, contrary to the Chokutō, developed an outer curvature, away from the cutting edge. Tachi (太刀) swords were worn, not hanging, but rather stashed through the obi (帯) or sash of male kimonos, cutting edge facing always up. This allowed tachi (太刀) swords to deliver a deadly strike from above along with the very first drawing of the blade, unlike the case of the Chokutō. This curvature eventually reached mature development in the classic Katana (刀), the epitome of Japanese swords or Nihonto (日本刀).--Luxgratia (talk) 12:04, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

I am aware of the difference between 大刀 and 太刀. Just wonder if 大刀 is synonymous with Chokutō or not? Asked differently, are there any Chokutō which are not 大刀 ? If they are different, there should be a 大刀 article, maybe as Pre-Heian Tachi or something like it. bamse (talk) 18:43, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

I called Bunkacho. But the expert on katana was not available today. Please wait a while. But it seems the classification is not so clear-cut. BTW, bamse, the Ino-related jyuyobunkazai designated as national treasure on June 29. Go here and click "page" in the second paragraph. You can see the gazette page. Oda Mari (talk) 06:35, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. No need to rush. Also thanks for letting me know about the designation. I updated National Treasures of Japan#Historical materials with Inō Tadataka's treasure and List of National Treasures of Japan (ancient documents) with the Naruto rice field map (越中国射水郡鳴戸村墾田図). Also updated some numbers (like counts of total number of treasures) in National Treasures of Japan, List of National Treasures of Japan (ancient documents) and National Treasures of Japan (statistics). Hope I did not miss anything. Seems that we are more up-to-date than even bunkacho or their database (don't tell them when you call them ;-) ). bamse (talk) 19:08, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

I called them. Chokuto/straight blade is same as tachi/大刀. It is also called jōkotō/上古刀. As for NT, 越中国射水郡鳴門村墾田図 and 伊能忠敬関係資料 are the only two designation this time. The pedestal 黒漆八角二重壇 of 乾漆不空羂索観音立像/かんしつふくうけんさくかんのんりゅうぞう/Fukū Kensaku Kannon, and the zushi/case 漆塗厨子 of 塑造執金剛神立像/そぞうしゅこんごうしんりゅうぞう were designated too. But they are thought as additional designation. Because both statures were already designated as national treasure and the pedestal and the case were attachment. I inclined to tell them to update the database, but I refrained. Oda Mari (talk) 08:52, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. Actually their database is quite good and recently got a cool map feature. bamse (talk) 10:13, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Interestingly there seems to be at least one more spelling for tachi besides 大刀 and 太刀. According to this book, pages 28, 29, there are two spellings for pre-Heian straight swords: 大刀 and another spelling that translates as "horizontal sword" (not sure about the kanji). The author refers to the Todaiji kenmotsucho (register of objects deposited by the emperor at the Shōsōin). 大刀 are swords >60cm and "horizontal swords" are <60cm. bamse (talk) 15:16, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

I called Shosoin and talked with a curator and she said she thought "horizontal sword" might be chokuto. She also said they didn't classify blades by length. There are three kinds of blades in Shosoin. Tachi, hoko/pike, and tōsu/knife. As for the Todaiji kenmotsucho, here is the link and the description on swards and the related items like sword rack are on page 15 to 22. Oda Mari (talk) 08:10, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

On page 20 of the Todaiji kenmotsucho, there are 横刀 (horizontal sword). Can this be read as "tachi"? I guess if the Shosoin people don't care about the distinction, we should not either. bamse (talk) 10:52, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry. I didn't thought that was a tachi because it was not long. But you are right. 横刀 is tachi. [1] [2] According to this page, the word 横刀 was used in Tang Dynasty.　The word 熹刀 in Kojiki is translated as 横刀. although this page reads 横刀 as ōtō, it says tachi means blades longer than 60.6cm and blades shorter than 60.6cm are called 横刀. This page also says the shorter blades are 横刀. See the 2005-12-19 entry. I'll call Shosoin or Bunkacho again and make things clear. Are there anything you want me to ask them? Oda Mari (talk) 17:04, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

My innocent first question turned into quite a discussion... I am still learning about these things, so don't really have anything intelligent to ask besides clarifying the meaning of 横刀. Thanks for your efforts in this (and other) questions. bamse (talk) 17:42, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

I called them both. Shosoin has their own classification and they do not use 横刀 for shorter blades but the blades' shape. They read the character oto and classify it as a kind of tachi. The names of Shosoin treasures are based on the Todaiji kenmotsucho or other old documents. Any of the Shosoin treasures are not designated as national treasure because Shosoin belongs to Imperial Household Agency and the treasures are already protected by them. I talked a lot with a Bunkacho woman and she said tachi and chokuto are not 100% equal. Not only for katana, but there are always exception on other treasures. But they don't have any treasure with a 横刀 name. There is no systematic naming rules. No matter how they tried, actually it is impossible to classify and name treasures clear-cut. Especially the old ones. Naming itself differs. Some have the name hundreds years ago and some are named in Meiji. So you can not always know what's what only from the names of the treasures. Forgetting about Shosoin, it is not incorrect that some people classify shorter blades as 横刀/tachi/oto. Well, it's so complicated and I'm too mixed up to say anything. Oda Mari (talk) 17:06, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks again for calling them. I did not expect it to be that complicated. As for the Imperial Household Agency and national treasures, indeed the only imperial national treasure is the Shosoin building itself. The reason for being a NT is, that it is part of the Nara World Heritage Site, and in Japan all structures which are nominated as world heritage site need to be at least important cultural properties or better (i.e. NT). This book suggests, that the Imperial Household Agency refuses to get their properties protected as NT because they'd have to cede certain rights (e.g. they'd have to allow regular access to the properties). bamse (talk) 08:25, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Differential tempering

"It was created before development of differential tempering in Japanese swordsmithing" Differential tempering was not used in Japanese swordsmithing only differential hardening... --47.64.241.165 (talk) 19:02, 11 May 2014 (UTC)