Talk:Chaos Control (video game)

Thunder Arrow

Unless I missed something, Thunder Arrow is not a Chaos Control ability. It was first used by Knuckles in Sonic Adventure 2; it was his 40 Ring attack in battle mode, and what he used against you when you fought against him using Rouge. There's also no indication whatsoever that Knuckles was using Chaos powers in order to use this attack, not to mention that all Chaos Control abilites (at this time) have the word "chaos" in it, in some way, shape, or form. For all we know, Thunder Arrow could be a Knuckles-exclusive ability.

I just wanted to get that straight and let the people decide whether it qualifies as Chaos power (and if so, why and/or how), instead of just nixing it out of the article and raising quite a few eyebrows. Eternalslumber (talk) 13:58, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Funpedia

imho it is absolutely irrelevant, annoying and to some physicists downright disgusting to have one tiny fragment from the world of silly fiction more or less conceal a well-defined concept in the exact sciences. i vote for renaming, appending some qualifier in parenthesis -- Kku 10:22, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Silly? Sonic the Hedgehog is a major video game series, and Chaos Control is an important part of quite a few games. The Wikipedia article "Control of chaos" refers to the concept as "control of chaos" throughout the whole thing, thus it ain't anyone here's problem if somebody gets lazy and types in "Chaos Control" instead of "Control of chaos". It's not like typing in the word "of" and watching how you order your words is gonna kill ya. Besides, there's a link to control of chaos, so I say leave it. Besides, why are physicists gonna be looking on Wikipedia anyway? MegaWhatt 00:56, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Chaos Arrows?

Good question. I have never seen those energy blasts be referred to as Chaos Arrows before. -anon

Fake Emerald

Tails does not state that the Fake Emerald explodes when simply used, instead stating that it only explodes when it replaces the corresponding real Emerald and is used together with the six remaining real Emeralds - it absorbs the other Emeralds' energy, overloads, and explodes. Thus, since it otherwise posesses the same qualities as a conventional Emerald, Sonic can Chaos Control without suffering harm.

Also, why is Sonic's use of Chaos Control in SA2's Dark Story final battle not considered canon? He still posesses the Fake Emerald, after all, showing it off to Shadow in the Hero Story version of the cutscene leading up to it.

I dunno but it's probbaly because Sonic almost fainted when using Chaos Control the 1st time with a fake emerald, so unless he got the hang of using chaos control without it exhausting him, Shadow would have easily beaten him the 2nd time. It was probably used to balance the fight (i.e. both character use chaos control when you're too far ahead, both use ranged attacks when you're too far behind, et cetera). BlackEDGE MkII 01:34, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I remember that fight... After the other guy used his ranged attack, you had to nail him with a Homing Attack or Spin Dash while he [foolishly] stood still By the way, you could also nail him anytime by using a Light Dash. No, really, you can damage enemies by Light Dashing into them. The same trick works in Sonic Heroes, but it's not nearly as effective, only doing 1 HP of damage. I'm not sure if they kept it in Shadow the Hedgehog, though. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Luigifan (talk • contribs) 12:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Yeah, good times, good times. The final battle with Sonic and Shad was a piece of cake compared to the Biolizard. DeathGodDragon EDGE 00:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Just want to mention that Sonic used Chaos control for a long distance, through walls, and through an explosion the first time. He only warps a hundred feet or so in the boss fight. Jon166 04:34, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Regardless, it should only be considered canonical if there is a minimum number of times it is used... Sonic's could be any number depending on how many times he fell behind. Depending on how it goes, he may not use it at all.

At this point I would like to point out that we never say "Shadow used Chaos Control in the Glyphic Canyon level in the Shadow the Hedgehog game" just because it happened to us personally, since it may not apply to everyone's run through Glyphic Canyon. The only canonical gameplay use of Chaos Control in Shadow the Hedgehog was in The Last Way, because it was a required move.MegaWhatt 01:08, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Chaos Powers

I doubt the special attacks Chaos 0 used in SA2/SA2:B were actual chaos powers. They were probably attacks used by Chaos that had his name at the front. BlackEDGE MkII 00:22, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh Come On!

Is everyone in the entire Sonic Universe gonna wake up and find out that they have the ability to use Chaos Control? Now Silver can use it! Jeez!!! Who's next? Amy? Cream? Eggman? BlackEDGE MkII 01:15, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the innate capacity for Chaos Control is going to be reserved for the main characters (e.g. Sonic, Shadow, Silver...) and the newer villains (e.g. Black Doom, Mephiles...) However, Eggman has designed machines to use Chaos Control, and I'm quite sure that Tails would be able to do the same thing. I mean, he did manage to create a false Emerald, after all, and the guy's long been recognized as being on par with Dr. Eggman in terms of machinery. --Luigifan 12:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm just saying that every main character/villian doesn't need to have the abiltiy to use Chaos Control. In SA2, it was fresh because Shad was the only one (until Sonic just happened to discover that he could do it too) who could use it. Now, with with each passing game, 1 more character is shown to be able to use it, and Chaos Control loses it's freshness. I can understand Metal and Doom being able to use the abiltiy as well, but still, Silver?! The only way that I could see him being able to use it is if is he's either Sonic or Shad's descendant. DeathGodDragon EDGE 23:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

This is a breakdown of every character that can use Chaos Control (excluding those who can possibly attain it with the help of a machine):

Shadow: The Ultimate Life Form (blood of Black Doom); had it since his creation
Sonic: his super form was fortold in Echidna legend; stumbled onto it before the capsule he was in exploded in space
Biolizard: protype of the Ultimate Life Form; possibly had Black Doom's blood (unconfirmed)
Metal Sonic: copied it from Shadow; nuff said
Black Doom: Shad's biological father; most likely had the ability before any other character that has appeared in the series
Silver: psychokinetic who lives in the future; also happens to stumble upon the ability (this time during a battle with Shad); could be a descendant of a Chaos Control user (most likely Shad or Sonic)

I'm not including Mephiles because I don't believe he used Chaos Control (he didn't say anthing when he teleported Shad and Rouge into the future). My theory is that he retained some of Solaris' abiltily to control time and space, even though he was separted from Ilbis. Either that or he gained the ability from using Shad's shadow to reform. DeathGodDragon EDGE 00:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

by the way blaze and jet is one of the newer main caracters but they cant use chaos control, and eggman nega is a newer villans and he cant eihter

Wait, Blaze uses Chaos Control at the end? From what I've seen (haven't played the actual game, only seen videos), she just says "goodbye" and disappears. She doesn't actually say "Chaos Control" or anything, which is what every Chaos Control-user so far (who can talk) have done... Doesn't look much like Chaos Control either. Someone provide some proof. 83.255.67.167 14:47, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

She doesn't. And I took that part out. ChromeWulf ZX 21:46, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Wait, someone added in Blaze, and the theory has a good reason, but... ChromeWulf ZX 04:10, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Almost half the list now consists of possibilities and assumptions. ...Is that bad? Gurko 12:02, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Probably. I say that we remove every user that isn't confirmed. If anyone has a problem, then we'll explain why we took em out. ChromeWulf ZX 03:18, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Just a note or two on this. First, I'm figuring that Chaos Control is used by those who have great power, and know how to use the emeralds. Super Forms obviously show that they can use the emeralds.

Chaos Controllers:

Sonic, Shadow, Silver, Black Doom, Metal Sonic, Biolizard?, Blaze?

Super Forms:

Sonic, Shadow, Silver, Blaze, Tails, Knuckles, Metal Sonic?, Biolizard?, Black Doom?

Also, not sure if this means anything, but Blaze (the iffy one), Tails, and Knuckles just happened to share ring counts with Sonic in the final boss fights, while the others were independant... Jon166 05:43, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm still skeptical about Blaze (I'm taking out any character game-wise who has a ? next to em). Also, the Finalhazard, Devil Doom, and Metal Madness/Overlord aren't super transformations. ChromeWulf ZX 22:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, that would support my theory even more, as she shares a ring count with Sonic, just like Knuckles and Tails. So Sonic, Silver, and Shadow are all of the ones who were Super in final boss fights with their own ring counts, and they are the only ones who can do Chaos Control. Also, Doom and the Biolizard enhanced their forms with the Emeralds. Metal didn't, but he copied Chaos Control from Shadow, just like Emerl does to use C. Teleport and C. Burst. Jon166 04:12, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I think Emerl counts... I mean, if you give him Shadow's Air Dash, it states "Shadow's air action. He teleports using Chaos Control.". Gurko 12:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that Emerl and Metal are in the same boat, as they can copy Chaos Control, but can't copy usage of the Chaos Emeralds for Super Forms. They can copy Super forms, however, as Metal copied Chaos's Perfect form, and Mecha Sonic copied Super Sonic. However, neither use the Chaos Emeralds, just a fleet of ships or the Master Emerald's stored energy as a source.

Conclusion: Living forms who do Chaos Control can use independant Super Forms in final boss fights, and vice versa. Machines can copy the use of Chaos Control, and copy Super Forms to enter enchanced forms using a power source, but they don't have to specifically use the Chaos Emeralds. Jon166 04:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Someone re-added Mephiles. I could remove him again due to speculation, but I haven't even played the game so I could be wrong. Can anyone with Sonic 2006 confirm that Mephy uses Chaos abilities? Gurko 18:50, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

He uses the Chaos Emerald to bond with Iblis, and he travels through time. I don't think he uses an emerald for time travel, though. Otherwise, I don't know.Jon166 19:56, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't Black Doom say the chaos emeralds enhance a person's innate ability to use the chaos control? If that's the case, then it's plausible that everyone in the sonic multiverse can perform a chaos control, but only when wielding a chaos emerald 76.20.190.158 03:14, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, he says, and I quote "The Chaos Emeralds amplify the space time control powers of Chaos Control". Nothing was said to suggest that everyone has the innate ability to use Chaos Control, although given that Sonic and Silver were able to use it for seemingly no reason other than they had seen it before, it makes sense. As for Mephiles, Shadow said in Sonic the Hedgehog that "His power feels very similar to my own Chaos Control", but then again, that doesn't necessarily mean it is Chaos Control. Since Blaze has not been seen using Chaos Control, the theory that those with independent Super Forms can use Chaos Control is not fact. However, this conclusion may make sense. Possible Conclusion; Only certain anthropomorphic characters and machines who have copied the abilities of said characters possess the ability to use Chaos Control. Given that Sonic was tired from using a fake Chaos emerald to Chaos Control, it is possible that only the more powerful beings can use Chaos Control without putting massive strain on their bodies, and only inherent users (or machines who have copied their abilities) are capable of using other Chaos abilities, or using Chaos powers without an emerald. To demonstrate this theory, let's look at all confirmed users of Chaos Control. Shadow; The first seen user of Chaos Control, Shadow uses this ability many times and can also use other Chaos abilities. Shadow is obviously a powerful being (Ultimate Life Form much?) Sonic; Used this ability with a fake Chaos Emerald, which obviously would have taken a toll on him given that it is less powerful than a real Chaos Emerald, despite having the same wavelength and properties (thus why Sonic was able to use Chaos Control with it at all). Sonic is one of the most powerful characters in the series, thus later in the series he is seen using it more proficiently (although this may be attributed to using a real Emerald in Sonic the Hedgehog). Biolizard; This ugly lizard has to be very powerful. Fighting it took a lot out of its own successor for Pete's sake. While the Biolizard's Chaos Control was used for merging, this is most likely because it was surrounded by all seven Chaos Emeralds and the Master Emerald. Metal Sonic; Copied Shadow's abilities, and being able to match or exceed Sonic's speed in addition to other's abilities make Metalhead a powerful threat indeed. Black Doom; He's Shadow's daddy, and has also been seen using Chaos Control (presumably) without an Emerald, as seen after Westopolis. He appears to be very proficient in its use. Emerl; Since all of Shadow's Chaos abilities are Chaos Control shaped into one form or another, and Emerl can copy these abilities, Emerl is technically using Chaos Control. He's a robot, so he doesn't have any problems with it. Silver; This guy's almost killed Sonic twice... aka... he's one bad psychokinesis using hedgey-hog. He used Chaos Control with an emerald with no problem. Egghead's machine in Sonic Advance 3; Again, it's a machine... no problems with the ability. At this point I would like to bring up the method in which the Biolizard used Chaos Control. It merged with the ARK while in the vicinity of the Chaos Emeralds and Master Emerald. Even with all Chaos Emeralds, the user has only been seen using massive teleportation. Thus, it may be that the Master Emerald can allow for Chaos Control as well, meaning that Knuckles, being able to use the abilities of the Master Emerald, may be able to Chaos Control as well.MegaWhatt 21:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Picture

Honestly, the picture we have now stinks. So what tails Knux and Amy are watching an energy blast. Why don't we get a in game photo of someone using it, like in the ShadSon finalie in SA2 or when Shadow uses it in the Cutscene after you fight Bigfoot. Mabey even an in CHAOS CONTROL picture from Shadow the Hedgehog (game) to Show people the official Canon, what it looks like, not what Sonic X showed it as in episode 1!

I suggest you help find one. Gurko 22:33, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Chaos Control without a Chaos Emerald

Saying that any of the characters can use Chaos Control without a Chaos Emerald seems to be speculation.

A list of times Emeralds were nearby when Chaos Control may have been used

1) the first time Shadow used it in SA2 in front of Sonic, he had an Emerald; 2) when Shadow used it again saving Rouge, there were 3 Emeralds in the immediate vicinity but he was not in direct possession of them yet; 3) the final time he used it, he was in Super form and thus powered by Emeralds, the same goes for Sonic as Super Sonic in a super-double team Chaos Control; 4) Sonic used it on a fake Emerald and Shadow made a big deal over it; 5) Sonic and Shadow both used it in their final battle, with Sonic in direct possession of the fake Emerald and Shadow only with the fake Emerald in the immediate vicinity; 6) Biolizard used it with the Emeralds in the immediate vicinity; 7) in Sonic Heroes, the design team went through the trouble of giving Shadow an extra Emerald to pull out during the Chaos Inferno Team Blast so that Chaos Control could be used; 8) when Metal Sonic used Chaos Control as Metal Overlord, the Chaos Emeralds were in the immediate vicinity being used by Team Super Sonic; 9) after Shadow gave his Emerald to Emerl in Sonic Battle, he happened to only battle when Emerl was near-by, thus the Emeralds were still in the vicinity; 10) in Shadow the Hedgehog, it is nearly impossible to use Chaos Control before you get an Emerald (without cheating), also Sonic said "With that Emerald you could unleash awesome powers"; 11) Black Doom tossed Shadow around the globe with what may have been Chaos Control a few times, and since Shadow had the Emeralds they were still in the immediate vicinity (although he never said "Chaos Control"- so it could have been a transporter technology, similar to what some Black Arm troops, and Eggman's ships and robots used in that game, or what Rouge and Eggman used in SA2); 12) Black Doom used the Chaos Emeralds to warp the Black Comet down to the surface; 13) Super Shadow used the Emeralds powering him to warp the comet back into space; 14) in Sonic the Hedgehog 06, Sonic and Shadow used Chaos Control with seperate Emeralds to open a time warp to get back to the present; 15) Shadow used Chaos Control while holding an Emerald in his battle with Silver, and also says "with a Chaos Emerald's power, I control time and space"; 16) then a few minutes later they both used it on seperate Emeralds in opposition to each other, and open a time warp into the past; 17) Shadow uses it with an Emerald again in the past to hold Mephiles and seal him; 18) Shadow and Silver repeat that Chaos Control with seperate Emeralds some time later to get back to the present; 19) Sonic and Silver used Chaos Control on seperate Emeralds to open a time warp to save Elise and send Silver & Blaze home.

List of times Emeralds may not have been nearby when Chaos Control may have been used

1) In Shadow the Hedgehog's Last Story, after Doom ran (floated) away from Shadow with all of the Emeralds, Shadow used Chaos Control in Last Way during gameplay with no Emeralds visible; 2) in the opening of Shadow's story in Sonic the Hedgehog 06, Shadow dissappeared in a flash of light to save Rouge, but didn't have an Emerald and never said "Chaos Control"; 3) Shadow used Chaos powers in-game without an Emerald, but he never used Chaos Control itself in-game with these other powers; 4) Mephiles has the abilty to time travel using something what, according to Shadow, feels like Chaos Control—but doesn't need an Emerald or to say "Chaos Control."

These no-Emerald uses of Chaos Control can be easily explained, but it may involve seperating the other Chaos powers, such as Chaos Spear and Chaos Boost, from it, and also realizing the Emeralds do not need to be in direct possession of the user—just close enough for them to tap into their power. When Black Doom fled from Shadow he didn't teleport, he floated away, is he fast enough to outrace Shadow? Nothing was ever hinted at Black Doom possessing super speed. The possiblity exists, and may even be suggested by the game doing it this way, that he did not get far enough away from Shadow's range of being able to draw power from the Emeralds—thus allowing Shadow to use Chaos Control from the Emeralds' power. Shadow's disappearance in a flash of light in Sonic06 may not have been Chaos Control since he never vocally invoked it, it could have been Chaos Snap instead. And Chaos Snap could be more like what Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Metal Sonic often did in the Sonic OVA anime movie; where they suddenly dissappeared into black outlines - extremely fast movements that we the viewer did not catch - I think the Dragon Ball anime series does something similar (and Shadow's skates emit light which would account for the light)(that stuff was far to speculative, just ignore it, but there has been a distinction made between Chaos Control and Chaos Snap so they are not the same). Mephiles is half of Solaris, a creature that can control time, so this power is likely not Chaos Control.

So, why would Shadow make a big deal over Sonic using a fake Emerald to use Chaos Control if Emeralds are not needed? Why was Sonic thinking about the fake Emerald's similarites to the real thing and if he could even use Chaos Control with it if Emeralds are not needed? Why would Sonic suggest that Shadow needed the Chaos Emerald to unleash "awesome powers" if Emeralds...(you get the idea)? What does Black Doom mean when he said: "The Chaos Emeralds amplify the space-time control powers of Chaos Control"? Why are the majority of uses of Chaos Control done with direct possession of an Emerald, or with one in the immediate vicinity - and this is especially true in cutscenes?

Many of these facts seem to indicate that an Emerald or more is needed to be at least close by to invoke Chaos Control. Black Doom's quote is kind of ambigous, but it is not a stretch to say it suggests that 1 Emerald is required to use Chaos Control, it's just that more Emeralds must be added for an amplified Chaos Control (with enough power to move something the size of the Black Comet). Although some of this, like the explaination of the Shadow's use of Chaos Control in Last Way, is speculation, it still valid enough to expose the current theory as merely a theory using doubt, proving that saying that the characters do not need an Emerald at all is speculation. Cigraphix 01:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Alright, now you're just trying to downsize Shadow's abilities. Shadow used Chaos Control before WITHOUT speaking the name in Sonic Adventure 2. After using it for the first time, he used it to get away from Sonic. He said, and I quote, "There's no time for games... farewell!" and CHAOS CONTROLS away without saying it. It can't be Chaos Snap because first off, it looks exactly like Chaos Control, and second, Shadow needs to use Chaos Boost in order to use Chaos Snap. This rules out your explanation for the beginning of Sonic 06; No Chaos Boost, no Chaos Snap. Also, although not really canonical, Shadow uses Chaos Control in his final fight with Sonic, and all he says is "This is the ultimate power!". Your "tap into the power of the Emeralds" explanation is most definitely speculation, as if that were true, there would be no logical explanation for the slots in the Eclipse Cannon (and it wouldn't make sense that they were only there to transfer the Emeralds to the Cannon's Core, because if that were the case, someone with a knowledge of the energy of the Chaos Emeralds, like Eggman would have questioned why the slots were there.) And the ability to use Chaos Control cannot merely exist with sentient machines, as Eggman's machine in Sonic Advance 3 split the world with a Chaos Emerald in the machine, something that wouldn't be neccessary if you theory is correct. Your explanation about Shadow making a big deal over Sonic using the fake Chaos Emerald can easily be explained; either Shadow didn't know that Chaos Control could be used with a fake Emerald or none at all at the time, or he didn't think Sonic could. This latter one is supported by in-game dialogue. "It was a Chaos Emerald wasn't it? But there's no way you could have activated the Chaos Control using an Emerald that's fake!" then he says "So, there's more to you than just looking like me." This suggests that Shadow can use Chaos Control with a fake Emerald, but didn't expect Sonic to be able to. Remember, Shadow was very egocentric in this game, referring to himself multiple times as the Ultimate Life Form. He wouldn't believe a "fake" hedgehog like Sonic could have the same abilities as him. The Sonic Heroes thing where Shadow has an Emerald can be explained by Shadow's amnesia. It's obvious that the game was just a buildup for Shadow the Hedgehog, so it only makes sense that they would wait until Shadow's own game before revealing that Shadow's signature ability can be used without an Emerald. I don't have much more time for now, so I'll close up with the Last Way thing. You're right, Black Doom couldn't outrun Shadow. So how could he be so far away? The answer is obvious... he teleported away while offscreen. Black Doom isn't stupid... if your theory is correct, he would have known that Shadow could use Chaos Control while in the vicinity of the Emeralds, but attempted to slow him down by taking them far enough away so that he'd have to put what is most likely a bigger strain on himself by using Chaos Control without an Emerald. As for his quote that "The Chaos Emerald amplify the space-time control powers of Chaos Control." he also says "We need them to charge to full power.". Not ALL SEVEN (which is what he would say if at least one was required to use Chaos Control), but THEM.MegaWhatt 19:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey, saying that I'm trying to downsize Shadow's abilities implies that I have an anti-Shadow or pro-some-other-character agenda. I can assure I do not, as I have protected the Shadow article from vandals and speculation, and have rewritten parts to make it more accurate and professional. I also have alot of respect for the work put into designing Shadow, he is not just some cookie-cutter anti-Sonic, and did you ever notice his similarities to a tenrec? [1] What you said also implies that Shadow has had these abilities all along and that I, a lowly fan, can take them from him. I dispute that he even had these abilities to begin with, and that it is a misinterpretation of the fans that 'gives' him an ability that he doesn't have. Such misunderstandings from the fan community have happened before: not long after the release of SA2, many people took Rouge's allegation that Shadow isn't the real Shadow, along with 'Rouge's Report' (which is translated on Sonic HQ), to mean that there was another Shadow the Hedgehog, and that the current Shadow the Hedgehog was never on ARK and never met Maria, that all of those memories were false and he merely created a delusion at the end that changed his programmed memories to Maria begging to make humanity happy. I always thought that the "other Shadow" was the Biolizard and Shadow was the real deal, so I personally emailed sites like Sonic HQ in attempts to correct this, and then Shadow's game vindicated this. Bottom line: I have a problem with incorrect-ness. Next, you seem to believe that I am arguing that the current theory about not needing an Emerald is wrong and my need an Emerald theory is right, when I am actually argueing that the current theory is highly speculative and this one deserves mentioning just as much as that one. I realize there are weaknesses in this theory, but still want the community to recognize the glaring weaknesses in the current one as well and compromise for correct-ness's sake.

Now on to your stated problems. Well sorry I forgot a couple of Chaos Control uses, they weren't intentionally left out, but listing every use of Chaos Control off the top of your head is difficult. Now I never said that if "Chaos Control" is not said out loud, it isn't Chaos Control; I only indicated that if it is not said, doubt may be cast (and casting doubt is what this arguement is made of). You also neglect thinking about Chaos Blast between the Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic the Hedgehog games. In Shadow, Chaos Blast did not require Chaos Boost, yet in Sonic it does. This leaves holes in the arguement that Chaos Snap is impossible without Chaos Boost. Next for your arguement about needing to be in direct contact with the Emeralds to use them, I point you toward Perfect Chaos. In the scene where Perfect Chaos drains all of the Emeralds' power, they are not in direct contact with him, but rather are circling his head. Not having to be in direct contact with the Emeralds also explains how there can be more than one character in Super form. As for those slots in machines, well you have to store the physical body of the Emeralds somewhere within range of where the machine could draw from their power, right? In the end of SA2, the Emeralds were moved to the mock Shrine, where they floated on top of what looked like stone pillars (can't say anything about them not being stone without being speculation, because they looked like stone), not inside a machine's slots. And I never said only sentient machines could use it, I'm not sure what you were getting at there. But, like I said, Eggman's machine would require the Emerald to be within range (it could also be because the machine was not designed to draw from the Emerald without a direct connection - but that is totally speculative). Both of your re-interpretations of the convo between Shadow and Sonic before their last fight of SA2 do not rule out the possiblity of the one I described. The latter one seems unlikely given what Sonic (who is so knowledgeable on the Chaos Emeralds, Knuckles was going to ask his advice about them in SA) said when he first saw Chaos Control: "He must be using the Chaos Emerald to warp," not to mention all of the other evidence in SA2, Heroes, and the beginning of Shadow pointing at needing an Emerald. The first one, the one about not knowing yet that an Emerald is not needed, requires that there is a "revelation moment" - a moment in which Shadow finally realizes that he doesn't need a Chaos Emerald to use Chaos Control. Where is this moment? Is it when Doom does his Chaos Control speech (which is the only place it could be)? Shadow never showed some sort of clarity when Doom said it, he only showed clarity when he decided to stop being everyone's errand boy and fight back. I've already cast a great deal of doubt on Doom's speech being about not needing Emeralds, to the point where it cannot be proven. And I'm not fully certain I understand your addition of his next line, a line which I've always understood as: having only one Emerald means having only a fraction of the full power of the Chaos Emeralds, if one collects all seven then they charge to full power. So 0 Emeralds = 0 power for Chaos Control; 1 Emerald = 1/7 of full power; 4 Emeralds = 4/7 of full power; 7 Emeralds = full power. So I always thought he was refering to the Emeralds, you think he is refering to the Chaos Control ability, and they need these powers at their fullest. How does your understanding rule out not being able to use Chaos Control without an Emerald? Also how are you so sure "them" refers to the inherent power and not the Emeralds themselves? The statement is quite vague on that.

Now I should address the possiblity of a retcon, even though it hasn't been brought up: the only possible place for a retcon is in Sonic the Hedgehog 06, the opening scene for Shadow is where the pro-need-Emerald arguement is weakest. The flash does bear resemblance to the opening promo movie of Shadow's game, before Chaos Snap was introduced. During this movie, Shadow uses this ability in a similar way as Chaos Snap (popping up behind and attacking one Black Arm, then flashing out to pop up next to another to smash). However the introduction of Chaos Snap in StH06 game seems to be more than a coincidence. Later in 06, when Shadow tells Silver that "with a Chaos Emerald's power, I control time and space," it is highly suggestive that he needs an Emerald to use Chaos Control - which is defined as the control of time and space. This possibly differentiates it from Chaos Snap which does some sort of "teleport," but has not been described as warping time and space. This can be taken to be somewhat contradictory, that is why I am arguing that both theories, despite being completely contradictory to each other, be held at the same weight. One cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt over the other until further evidence in a future game is introduced. Cigraphix 02:36, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Somehow I knew that no one would understand the next line that Black Doom said.

And of course "full power" would mean Chaos Control, because that's what they were aiming for. The fact that he referred to the Chaos Emeralds as "them" suggests that he merely sees them as a way to amplify Chaos Control, because he does not refer to the Chaos Emeralds as actual individual emeralds, only a collective set. If he referred to them as "all seven", he would be acknowledging that at least one emerald is needed to perform Chaos Control, and the others are only there to serve as an amplifier... gah, you know what? Forget I said anything. This is too hard to explain over a computer. I choose to disregard anything in Sonic 06... it's a moot point, the entire game was erased. I don't think of it as canonical for one main reason... that issue with the blue Chaos Emerald. Besides, Super Forms are more like a different catergory than Chaos Powers, because they requires all seven emeralds, plus it's more a powerup than an attack like Chaos. I personally do not think that Sonic knew diddly about Chaos Control, because it would have been obvious that he was using the Chaos Emerald. Chaos Emerald, Chaos Control... I think even Big the Cat could have made the connection, much less someone with Sonic's (although QUITE limited if you ask me) intelligence.MegaWhatt 16:09, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually I didn't understand why you were dwelling on the Black Doom lines if you could not prove a concrete interpretation that rules out my interpretation. What you presented wasn't something that dispelled the ambiguity that I said existed in these lines, allowing them to be interpreted both ways. Also I'm a little nervous about where you're going on the speculation on Sonic's intelligence and knowledge of the Emeralds — it has been suggested (by Knuckles thinking he'll go for Sonic's advise on the Emeralds in SA, and Sonic's quick realizations in SA2 about the prominant role of Emeralds in different situations: Shadow's Chaos Emerald to warp, Chaos Emeralds' power to blow up moon, Shrine-like Cannon Core to harness Emerald energy, and any that I missed) that Sonic is quite smart and knowledgeable about them. You might soon realize you're downsizing the cognitive capabilities of multiple staple characters with this speculation. (sorry I like my Thesaurus lol) Maybe this should get moved to the already cluttered Talk:Shadow the Hedgehog page to include more people. Cigraphix 03:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

About SA2, ARK, and time travel...

I just wanted to make a small point. The article says that Sonic and Shadow conflicted the "if two hedgehogs warp space in the same room, reality falls apart" thing. Well, if you didn't notice, ARK was burning up. Pieces of the mustache fall off of it. After Chaos Control, ARK goes back to it's original state. Not a burn mark or anything. I don't think you could pick all the metal and ozone particles that you can't even see apart. -Jon166 (no tilde on the Wii keyboard) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jon166 (talk • contribs) 05:10, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

maybe because

Maybe it went back together because sonic and shadow used chaos control and sent time back witch restored the ARK but thats just a theory --Shadow rocks101 12:55, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Eggman?

I dont think Eggman should be put down as one of the users. His machines can do it but he cant and has never showed the ability to do so without some kind of emerald powered device. Fwooshlewooshle (talk) 20:24, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Redirect

Are you sure there wasn't any information we could've salvaged? Will discuss this at WikiProject Sega, not here. Red Phoenix (Talk) 19:40, 9 April 2008 (UTC)