Talk:Cedar Point/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

refunds law suit please add that info into article also thank you

and an other thing why dont the article even mention the classes action law suit from all the many ones who wanted covid 19 refunds but Cedar Point want better to be in a law suit in stead of just give refunds to any ones who want that. so why dont the article mention nothing bout that becuz its a very currently important a think for a lot of people who want to know about that dont you think so please add that two thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:C:5110:0:0:0:46 (talk) 23:36, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia is first and foremost an encyclopedia. Current news and tidbits are sometimes inappropriate, see WP:NOTNEWS and WP:RECENT. We try not to cover controversy as it happens or unfolds, and instead, we prefer to wait for the dust to settle before determining whether it has long-term significance. Right now, that's hard to judge. Should every amusement park or venue that has an article on Wikipedia have this kind of information added? I think that would be counter-productive, especially in articles that are already getting long in the tooth. When there's a lot of information to sift through, we should retain only the subject's most significant aspects. --GoneIn60 (talk) 09:33, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

First year of Cedar Point commercial tourism was not 1870

I was going to edit the Article page directly but I have never posted to this website before so I wasn't sure of the protocol for doing that. But the statement that 1870 was the first year of commercial tourism is incorrect. The Sandusky Daily Commercial Register of Aug.11, 1862 states a long news article about Capt. Frank Povansha was operating a ferry service for patrons to Cedar Point on his tugboat named Captain Lyon. So in the very least there was definitely commercial tourism already going on there as early as the year 1862. Maybe earlier than that. Should I remove the statement which is not correct and replace it with this information? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:C:5110:0:0:0:9 (talk) 21:13, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

It's possible if you dig harder, you'll find occurrences dating back even earlier. None of that changes anything, however. Sources widely recognize 1870 as the year Cedar Point was founded, despite activity on the peninsula prior. Read the discussion above on this page. After doing so, feel free to bring anything new to the table here for further discussion. Keep in mind that it's not our job to research and provide our findings (see WP:NOR). Instead, we rely on secondary sources to do that for us, and the content of the article represents the consensus among those sources. --GoneIn60 (talk) 04:04, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

THat ain't what I am talking about. The statement on the artcicle stated that the first commercial transportaton to the Cedar Point was in 1870. But that ain't true because exactly what you just just now above stated in your statement here. SO I removed that statement from the article So please don't miss interpet my articiel corrections to mean something which obliviously ain't true thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:C:5110:0:0:0:46 (talk) 17:08, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

and btw I aint doing no personally researched WP:NOR fyi. becuz all of these fact already are from a book called CEDAR POINT ITS RACIST PAST AND OTHER HIDING HISTORY. So fyi some one else did already this research not me. So if u dont think their research is rely able then u need to proove that there sources are not true but i already checked the originated source in the old news paper and it was true so thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:C:5110:0:0:0:46 (talk) 17:43, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

So you specifically have a problem with stating, "This marked the beginning of commercial tourism"? Sources typically state that prior to 1870, the peninsula was primarily used for hunting and fishing. It wasn't until 1870 when a beer garden, bathhouse, and dance floor were constructed by Zistel did all that begin to change. I think it's fair to summarize that this is when commercial tourism in the modern sense of the word began. The 1862 source said Povansha ferried people to the peninsula, but tourism typically refers to "the business of providing hotels, restaurants, entertainment, etc., for people who are traveling". Zistel helped take it to that level. Povansha and others like him before 1870 only provided transportation. Clearly there's a difference. --GoneIn60 (talk) 09:03, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

So you saying that people who go to a beach to enjoy just to being on a beach that aint tourism I think your wrong dude people go to the beaches everywhere just for tourism look it up dude so why u try to stop me from tell fact on wikipedia becuz wikipedia say it is for every body but w t h dude? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:C:5110:0:0:0:39 (talk) 14:42, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

What did I just say? The area was used primarily for hunting and fishing according to sources. Did anyone go there to lounge on the beach? Sure, very likely, but without a centralized, concerted effort to manage that as a business prior to 1870. Click the archived link I added for source #14 in the article. It pulls up an older copy of CP's page which states there was an 1867 local newspaper article calling for "some enterprising person" to utilize CP's "magnificient beach". That would be an odd article if it was already being tapped as a business. --GoneIn60 (talk) 16:53, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

dude that news papers say capt provansha give boat rides to Cedar point BEACH not nothing about hunt or fish so dont that meant the people goes to the beach there for to just enjoy it there just rite there on the BEACH? so and of coarse they must paid money for the boat rides so aint that commercial tourist becuz nothing say they nobody live there on the Cedar Point so that mean they must be tourist not reside. OMG dude so i know if may be my Inglesh aint good ok but i under stand what that news paper say. so why u dont? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:C:5110:0:0:0:1 (talk) 00:45, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

any way if u dont still dont under stand what i just sayed about commercial tourist but it dont even matter if those people go there for hunt or fish or just to da beach because they dont live there so they must be tourist and of course they pay that capt dude money to get there so it must be commercial right? so ur still wrong dude sorry so ok — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:C:5110:0:0:0:1 (talk) 01:26, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Not sure I'm understanding anything you're saying at this point. You may want to get someone to help you with your responses moving forward. Also, it would be helpful if you provided the sources you keep talking about (Newspaper, exact date, page number, title of section, and author if there is one). As for the book, please provide the ISBN. --GoneIn60 (talk) 05:58, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

dude this what my aunt helped me write for the first massage hear in case u dont know how to start read from da top of the massage ok thank you?

The Sandusky Daily Commercial Register of Aug.11, 1862 states a long news article about Capt. Frank Povansha was operating a ferry service for patrons to Cedar Point on his tugboat named Captain Lyon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:C:5110:0:0:0:52 (talk) 14:02, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

and dude i guss u dont know how to use google either so here is web page linked so ok

https://newspaperarchive.com/sandusky-daily-commercial-register-aug-11-1862-p-3/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:C:5110:0:0:0:52 (talk) 14:10, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

and ok so now ur say that people who dont not travels far aint tourist so ok but was people was travelling farther for just only to partying at that 1870 dude but they wasnt not travelling farther to just to enjoy the beach in 1862? something smell fishy about ur explainations dude and i dont meant cedar point beach lol — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:C:5110:0:0:0:52 (talk) 14:33, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

And what about the book you mentioned? Need the ISBN. Also, a warning to keep this conversation WP:CIVIL. Editors should refrain from remarks like "i guss u dont know how to use google", otherwise the conversation ends. You are expected to look up and provide sources for claims you are making. --GoneIn60 (talk) 17:06, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

sorry dude it was a tipo it shoulda sayed I guess you dont. sorry ok so thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:c:5110::12 (talk) 21:17, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

dude if u wants a copied of dat book CEDAR POINTS RACIST PAST. gonna be works at CP some body from Black Lives Matters groups she send it attachted to my email so if u want it two so then just gives me ur email dress so i can attatch it in a .pdf in email to u or u can justs go to black lives matters web sites and asks them wheres u may be can buys one printeds at da expanse of dead trees ok so thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:C:5110:0:0:0:7 (talk) 14:09, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

dude FYI ur explation smell fishy becuz da only kind of tourism is commercial tourism so it dont matters if its modern or old days toursim its all da same its commercial toursim PLEASURE SEEKERS dude if u reads the 1862 news paper dats exactamente it says so ok. so kindilly pleas stop wastin time playin words games and kindilly pleas put da Artcle back axactly da way i fix it or u not gonna be da king of Wikpedia no more becuz u gonna be justs a Court Joker solomente lol — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:C:5110:0:0:0:7 (talk) 14:13, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

well king dude i dont not know what mores u wants me to do so ok thank you good by  :-(

I went ahead and removed that statement for now, not because it was necessarily incorrect, but because it really needs better sourcing and/or to be rephrased. In the end, it isn't really necessary anyway. More cleanup of the entire history section is needed. I've fixed a few items over the years, but I wasn't the editor who compiled most of that info. There's a lot more work to do. --GoneIn60 (talk) 22:33, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Disruptive/Uncivil Remarks

i dunno whats u meaned about it need rephrase because it just aint true dude. obliviously the Cedar Point beaches was poplar locols vacactions spot for long times be for dat 1870 dude guy. so i think what u tryna wanna actual say is about whens the first HOTEL was built. becuz that would be the real true turnpoint for peoples from vary a way long distences to be abled to enjoy da beach and all so they cans stay OVER NITES two. right dude? otherwise it aints no diffrence to be partyin at the beach or just swimmin at da beach because ITS WAS ALWAYS STILL ALL BOUT THAT HUGED BEACH until they bilded the roller costers of coarse then thats is another turnings point right dude?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:C:5110:0:0:0:54 (talk) 22:14, 3 April 2021 (UTC) so if u real true wanna make progress dude u gotta take a way all every thing about dat 1870 dude because he aint nothin especial just becuz he let peoples partyin on his beach instead of justs swimmin on da beach or picnick or whats ever elses becuz all theys peoples befor 1870 still be goes there FOR DA BEACH becuz their was lot of place 4 partyin right in the city Sandusky if all of them peoples wanteds to do was only partyin. but when da hotel was bilded then at lest theys can stays over nites at da beach in sted of only justs goin for one day only. right dude? any way i dont thinks any body wanna make progresses on this Cedar Point article becuz i just now try to added some more stuffs from dat book and now their aint no way to add edit nuthin now so i startin to thinks dis hole websites racist if it wont lets me adds any stuffs from dat book. so whatever dudes You had a problem with the "commercial tourism" statement. After discussion, it was removed like you wanted. If there are other changes you'd like to see, then write exactly what you want to say, and we can further discuss it if necessary. But I strongly suggest you get someone to help you, so that we can properly understand what it is you want to include or change. --GoneIn60 (talk) 14:16, 4 April 2021 (UTC) dudes u musts thinks dat i justs sum dum stupids PR blatino if u thinks i dont not knows what it meaned when u sayed REVERTED IN TO LAST STABLE VERSON. or un less u justs tryna playin more words games if u tryna sayed meaned a casa 4 caballos dat kinda STABLE becuz other wise what u sayed sound look vary racist king dude. and dat edjohnton dude he musts thinks dat i justs sum dum PR blatino two if he think i dont not knows what it meaned when he shutted off da add edits rite afters u ask me dat name of dat book and i tells u it cedar point its racist past dudes. and he sayed becuz it dat it becuz edits waring but they aint no edits waring dude. no body was edits nuthin their when he shuts off da adds edits 4 da CP artical. and now u tryna sayin dat it alls dont look and sound vary racist dude? whatever so good by dudes — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:C:5110:0:0:0:54 (talk) 22:51, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

all of the names of the amusement park not just Cedar Point

and btw why doesnt the article tell about the other old names of the amusement park like the CEDAR POINT PLEASURE RESORT was it's first name just like it tells in a old book called SANDUSKY OF TODAY it was publish in 1888 and u can even read it on the ohio history website thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:C:5110:0:0:0:46 (talk) 17:56, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Articles on Wikipedia are always a work in progress. If you want to add missing information, feel free to do so, but be sure to provide the source. If you need help citing references, see WP:REFB or ask for help at WP:TEA. You can also do nothing, and hopefully someone watching this talk page will get around to the request. --GoneIn60 (talk) 09:22, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

so hear on talkpages u telling me to add my fact to the articles page but their on the articles page u telling me to wait for consensual so w t h dude make up ur mind ok thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:C:5110:0:0:0:39 (talk) 14:54, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Earlier, you tried to remove a statement and I disagreed. That's a separate discussion and has nothing to do with adding to the article. --GoneIn60 (talk) 16:41, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

dude it aint a works in progress if u go back wards every time i tried to deleted a lie from that articles. that aint progress dude but it sound like u must be da king on wikipedia so tell me what u wants me do king i will do it if u wants me to writes more stuff there. but even if u gonna leaf the lie their too then it will all be vary stupid becuz all ready it says too differents things it says 1870 commercial tourist but and few later sentence after that it say 1888 is first efforts to make a pubic resort so dont that means same thing as first commercial toursim i think its do. so then and if now so if i add more about that commercial toursim in 1864 add of what all ready there so the hole history story gonna sound real stupid right? well any way so whats ever u wants me do will be wait for when my Ant can help again me to writes better Inglesh for the articles ok so thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:C:5110:0:0:0:1 (talk) 00:54, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Would a dedicated paragraph in the lead or even a specific section for nicknames of Cedar Point work? I'm indifferent on the issue, but it might help. InvadingInvader (talk) 20:48, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

InvadingInvader: are you perhaps confusing the nickname of the amusement-park, with its various official names throughout its ownership? In case you weren't aware, but the official name of simply "Cedar Point" is a comparatively recent assigning. Official CP business documents and local-gov. documents prior to about 1956, do not indicate that simply "Cedar Point" was its name, but instead some other variations. For instance, in 1888, the business site itself was officially named Cedar Point Pleasure Resort, operated by the Cedar Point Pleasure Resort Company. Presumably the business site retained that full name for a short time even after the company was reorganized by 1898 as the "Cedar Point Pleasure Resort Company of Indiana". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FB91:1003:2696:D89B:E5AF:589:A31F (talk) 04:14, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

to the anonymous contributor who began this thread: In another thread you mentioned a book titled 'Cedar Point and Its Racist Past'. Can you, or someone, tell me the author of that publication? I just attempted a search for it, but nothing comes up under that title. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FB91:1003:2696:D89B:E5AF:589:A31F (talk) 12:55, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Gatekeeper

InvadingInvader: Let's discuss the change you're trying to make here instead of going back and forth in the article. I don't see a reason to modify the language, like you're trying to do in this edit and this edit. All the other coaster entries in this list have similar language, talking about records they held at the time of opening. Each coaster's article can explore this in more depth, such as when each record was surpassed. Here in the Cedar Point article, we should keep this very brief and avoid paragraphs of coverage for each coaster, which is what this would turn into if we allow this change for Gatekeeper. --GoneIn60 (talk) 18:44, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

GoneIn60 Thanks for reaching out, and I'm sorry I wasn't able to respond quickly. I think that notable stats (tallest, longest, fastest, highest inversion, firsts) should have a time frame. I'll use Top Thrill Dragster as an example: as of writing, the description says "A steel strata accelerator roller coaster. It was the tallest and fastest roller coaster in the world when it opened." It was surpassed by Kingda Ka in 2005, but to your point, these descriptions should be brief. It's not worth mentioning Kingda Ka surpassed it here, but it's important to tell when the Dragster lost the record, so I would rewrite it to "A steel strata accelerator roller coaster. From its opening in 2003 to 2005, it was the tallest and fastest roller coaster in the world." While I can understand the phrasing of "when it opened", not everyone who reads Wikipedia reads it thoroughly and skims information (I've done it first hand a few times when I was 7 years old), so I think that's important to mention time frames, partly due to that reason. I look forward to hearing your response. InvadingInvader (talk) 20:46, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

The chart already has a dedicated column for when it opened. Repeating that in the description column would be redundant. So when we say "when it opened" or "at the time of opening", it should be clear what time frame we're referring to. Since this is not an article about records or even about the coaster itself, I don't think making the descriptions more complex by adding when it lost the record is necessary in this article. There's plenty to cover regarding the park's extensive history, and when it was surpassed doesn't really belong here. The charts should be remain very brief as they are today. --GoneIn60 (talk) 21:34, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Record timeframes are absolutely necessary. World records are as notable as one can get. I understand a brief article is necessary, but if an article is too brief, it can leave out notable information, such as record timeframes. I can understand the repetitiveness of stating the year when it opened twice, but the year the record was surpassed, especially for coasters like the Magnum, Millennium Force, and the Dragster's height and speed records, not only give absolutely necessary information but also highlight innovations. Cedar Point is a park defined coasters and the records each coaster held. Why not just state (again using Top Thrill Dragster): A steel strata accelerator roller coaster that was the tallest and fastest roller coaster in the world until 2005. This solution avoids repetitiveness and also keeps it brief while allowing the mention of essential information. If a coaster has too many records and/or sub-type-specific records (like Valravn's dive coaster records or Steel Vengeance's records for hyper hybrid coasters), only include the most important one or two records. InvadingInvader (talk) 02:27, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

"...but if an article is too brief, it can leave out notable information"

That's why we have an article covering each coaster in more detail. A simple click to the respective article reveals more detailed information, including records held and lost. The problem you're going to run into if you start down this path here in this table is that with some entries – Gemini, Raptor, Corkscrew, etc – the year their records were broken is not exactly known or well-sourced. So this is going to create inconsistent coverage in the chart. Some will reveal when the record was broken while others won't. Sometimes it's best to keep it simple and not try to do too much. Any reader who wants to learn more about Top Thrill Dragster (or any other coaster) needs to visit that coaster's article. --GoneIn60 (talk) 04:10, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

I still think that the most notable one or two records should be at least mentioned upon expiration. Especially for the tallest coaster and fastest coaster records.InvadingInvader (talk) 16:35, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

And I still favor simple introductions and consistency within the table. Take another look at each description here. These seem like good introductions to me, similar to what you'd find in the lead section of an article. I recently cleaned them up removing the junk that entered the chart over the last couple years that shouldn't have been inserted. I've also dropped a note at WT:WikiProject Amusement Parks to see if we can get a few more opinions on the matter. --GoneIn60 (talk) 22:53, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

All of these record-breaking coasters have their own wiki page. That is where records should be mentioned, not on the Cedar Point page. Despite your earlier comments, Cedar Point is not just about coasters. It is a family destination resort with hotels, a campground, a water park, multiple flat rides, show venues, food venues — and also roller coasters. They should not be the primary focus.—JlACEer (talk) 00:54, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Multiple concerns regarding article content

Is someone being paid to control this topic?

After having read all of the talk page entries for this topic including the archived entries, it seems very likely that there are paid contributors who are controlling some of the content of this topic. Has this issue been investigated? And if so then what was the outcome of that investigation. Thank you. 2607:FB91:1003:2696:D89B:E5AF:589:A31F (talk) 01:26, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Note that the purpose of my inquiry is that I would like to perform a major needed overhaul of the Cedar Point page, because much of its content is superfluous and is not conducive with encyclopedic intent. But obviously an overhaul will not be possible if it has already been established that multiple persons are potentially being paid to maintain a status quo on this subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FB91:1003:2696:D89B:E5AF:589:A31F (talk) 12:24, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

I am not aware of any paid editors contributing here, but if there are, they should be made aware of Wikipedia's behavioral guideline concerning conflicts of interest, specifically WP:COIPAYDISCLOSE. --GoneIn60 (talk) 09:57, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Improperly placed images

I presume that Wikipedia abides by the encyclopedic general rule that images should appear adjacent to text being within a section of an article whereby the displayed image best illustrates that section of text. Is that indeed the usual procedure, here? If so, then several additional images within this article should be moved to their appropriate sections. Or simply removed if the image is superfluous. 2607:FB91:1003:2696:D89B:E5AF:589:A31F (talk) 17:10, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Incidentally, one of the images is even wrongly identified as being a Cedar Point logo in 1979. Well that's not precisely accurate. Notice in that image, there is a trademark icon. But Cedar Point did not utilize a trademark icon in that specific logo until circa 1984. Reason: Cedar Point did not even acquire a trademark on the name "Cedar Point" until circa 1984, and they seem to have had some difficulty in claiming a trademark. I haven't accessed the full legal documents to determine exactly what that difficulty was. But presumably the trademark was denied due to the longtime established name of the peninsula itself being Cedar Point. Apparently geographic names cannot be trademarked in that manner. But somehow the CP company seems to have subsequently accomplished it anyway.

Conspiracy theories prior comments

An online web archive service indicates that a thread previously posted here has been removed from active status, so therefore instead I will add my own personal comment here, concerning that prior thread. It is in reference to someone's statement here which seems to discount the possibility of a conspiracy of publicly promoted false information. Apparently that contributor was unaware that large corporations hire web influencers. In fact, the official Cedar Point webpages have previously mentioned an offer of exactly that. I could probably find that web page, or an archived copy of it, if need be. Additionally, nearly every book about CP's history, specifically credits the CP company with providing some of the information presented in those publications. So it would seem that all of those same publications could easily contain biased information, and even the possibility that the authors of those publications were regulated directly by the CP company, regarding what information the authors were allowed to include in those books, in order for those authors to gain access to the CP company's archives. This is simply standard business good-sense, and certainly not exclusively practiced by the CP company. 2607:FB91:1003:2696:D89B:E5AF:589:A31F (talk) 19:56, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

You are free to discuss concerns about any source at WP:RSN, where uninvolved editors can help weigh in on the reliability of such sources. Discussions there do not always reach a solid consensus, but it's a good place to start if you want outside feedback. Just keep in mind that the possibility of being biased or regulated needs a strong connection before one can reasonably draw that conclusion. Simply floating the possibility won't hold much weight in those discussions. --GoneIn60 (talk) 10:02, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Excessive redundant data

I agree completely with InvadingInvader who posted "...but if an article is too brief, it can leave out notable information. That's why we have an article covering each coaster in more detail. A simple click to the respective article reveals more detailed information, including records held and lost." In fact, because every coaster has its own separate article, it is therefore unnecessarily redundant within this main CP article, to include any specifics about those same coasters. A plain listing of their names linked to their respective articles, would clean up a lot of the superfluous data here. Likewise, these coasters are all represented in images in their own respective articles. The redundant images of them within the main CP article are unnecessary and taking up far too much space here. Please keep in mind the encyclopedic intent of Wikipedia. Currently this main CP article resembles a verbose novella, not a well-composed encyclopedic article. 2607:FB91:1003:2696:D89B:E5AF:589:A31F (talk) 22:46, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

I think you should re-read that discussion. I'm actually the one that made the statement, "That's why we have an article covering each coaster in more detail. A simple click to the respective article reveals more detailed information, including records held and lost." InvadingInvader wanted to add more information to this article about coaster records, not less. I held the position that there is plenty here already, and trying to do what they were proposing would only add more clutter. --GoneIn60 (talk) 09:52, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Venues recently edited

To Drmies: My initial reaction was somewhat negative to your removal of the entire Venues section within the CP article. But after reflecting upon the amount of strictly promotional data which has been included overall here, I now concur that you did the best thing. I only hope that other contributors will accept the necessity of reducing the debris within that main article. 2607:FB91:1003:2696:D89B:E5AF:589:A31F (talk) 23:16, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

CP History section

The History section is an overly wordy mess. The first several paragraphs have no direct purpose in specific regard to the topic of the article. Note that this article is about a business entity. If the name Cedar Point also is a geographic location, then that would certainly be notable for Wikipedia standards, and that geographic location should have its own separate article. Likewise, if Louis Zistel himself has notable qualities, a separate article should have been created for him long before now. Both of those suggestions might be a good project for contributors who indeed seem to feel that those two subject are notable. Regardless, the CP History section goes far off topic about the CP amusement park by including so much incidental information which would apparently be much more suitable in separate articles of their own. 2607:FB91:1003:2696:D89B:E5AF:589:A31F (talk) 12:30, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

I understand the concern, but keep in mind that "notability", as defined at WP:N, relates to the creation of articles. It is the litmus test used to determine if an article should exist on Wikipedia. When judging article content, we go by significance as reported in reliable sources, in accordance with Verifiability. The standards surrounding the inclusion of content within an article is different than the standards involving article creation.

With that said, I think a brief description of the peninsula immediately before and during the amusement park's formation, as described in many publications covering the park's early history, is relevant to this article. --GoneIn60 (talk) 10:12, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Good Article status

Is there a way to view the article as it was at the time of nomination for Good Article status? I suspect that it was in a considerably more condensed form at the time it was accepted as a Good Article. It certainly seems to have been allowed to devolve into rambling disarray. 2607:FB91:1003:2696:D89B:E5AF:589:A31F (talk) 17:02, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Absolutely. On the talk page of Good Articles and Featured Articles, you will see dates listed at the top under Article milestones. The dates represent both failed and successful status promotions. For example in this article, click the July 4, 2012 date to see the version of the article when it was promoted to GA status. --GoneIn60 (talk) 09:45, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Cedar Point peninsula

As per my latest edit which is obviously not intended to be permanent but was just a first attempt of a much smoother and far less cluttered approach: but if anyone wishes a Wikipedia presence for the Cedar Point peninsula then they should create a separate geographical article for that subject. Because this article is clearly about the Cedar Point business enterprise. In contrast, geographic topics all have their own separate Wikipedia articles, and there is no reason to try to cram additional information about the peninsula, crammed into this article about the current business enterprise. They are two separate topics and not suitably crammed into this article about the current business enterprise. Likewise about any incidental trivia for Capt. Louis Zistel. Please consider creating a separate article for Zistel if his notability is as important as the prior edits have implied. And please try to stay on topic as much as possible, for this Cedar Point business enterprise article, rather than going off on tangents with events that had little or nothing to do with the original establishment of the current Cedar Point business enterprise. Thank you. 2607:FB91:1003:2696:D89B:E5AF:589:A31F (talk) 22:09, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

You seem to be repeating what you said in the CP History section above. --GoneIn60 (talk) 10:14, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

"Cedar Point, Inc."

Another greatly needed reassessment is for the Cedar Fair article. It contains an egregious amount of misinformation, at least in regard to the prior various companies which subsequently became Cedar Fair. It even mentions some company named "Cedar Point Pleasure Company". I assume that the contributor instead meant the circa 1888 "Cedar Point Pleasure Resort Company", which subsequently became the "Cedar Point Pleasure Resort Company of Indiana" for a few years beginning circa 1898, but was again reorganized by a different name by the early 1900s, and then went through a couple of other transitions and name changes, none of which seem to be mentioned in the History section of the Cedar Fair article. I only mention this because a considerable amount of information from this Cedar Point article would be far more suitable in the History section of the Cedar Fair article. Meaning that the business operations ideally could be, and certainly ought to be, each kept separated within their proper articles, wherever appropriate. Unfortunately I don't have the time to separate out the business company data here, which really instead belongs in the Cedar Fair article. But this Cedar Point article would be a lot more concise if this CP article concentrated mostly on the physical business, and instead relegated the predeccessor company affairs mainly to the Cedar Fair company article, where that specific information belongs. That project would of course require someone with business experience who comprehends the difference between a physical business versus the company which operates that business. But perhaps not even the prior Cedar Point historians comprehended the significance of that difference. In which case, there will be no published sources to use as a reference for that project anyway. So unfortunately this CP article may never really be as good as it could be. 2607:FB91:1003:2696:D89B:E5AF:589:A31F (talk) 02:20, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

The Cedar Fair article is the appropriate place to cover this information in detail, and in fact, it should be expanded with this information. However, there's nothing wrong with briefly touching upon the business operations aspect as it relates specifically to Cedar Point, here in this article. If I were researching Cedar Point, I would expect to see some information mentioned about who and/or what business entity managed the park throughout the course of its history, especially of those that made a significant impact on the park's development. For more details about business dealings, company acquisitions, and company foundings, I would not expect to find much of that here. Instead, I would expect to see that in the Cedar Fair article, which is devoted to the company profile. --GoneIn60 (talk) 10:21, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Comments

This is a WP:Wall of text, and you are unlikely to get responses for each concern you raise when you do it in this fashion. Wikipedia operates on consensus, and following the revert I just made to the last stable version, it should be clear that you don't have that. The history of the land that the resort sits on is relevant to the scope of the article. I disagree with your assessment that how the land was used prior to Zistel is irrelevant. Instead of rambling on for 10+ paragraphs, let's get very specific and address the concerns one at a time. Where would you like to start? --GoneIn60 (talk) 05:23, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Well let's begin with the Wikipedia rule about not reverting multiple contributors edits in one single revert. Including edits by @Drmies which I agreed 100% with, and therefore is currently a 2-against-1 consensus for their edit which you just single-handedly killed with no consensus. Then afterward let's ask you why you personally have continually impeded multiple contributors efforts to improve this article. Then let's discuss what Wikipedia rule gives you the sole privileges to control the appearance of these Talk page threads. And that's just the tip of the issues of your personal activities and your violations of other procedures on this website that need some explaining. Including, that you yourself are the one who just now created this "wall of text". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FB91:1003:2696:D89B:E5AF:589:A31F (talk) 15:13, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Before you jump to conclusions, let me clarify that restoring the live entertainment section was not intentional. I went back and removed it. I think we're all on the same page there. Now, let's focus on content here. Nothing is set in stone, including anything in this article. There's always room for improvement. Let's move this discussion forward in a positive way and get some work done. I'm not going to respond to your accusations above; that's not going to be productive. Anyone that follows my activity in this realm knows I'm willing to work with anyone and DO NOT perform reverts for the sake of protecting an article. My goal is to avoid hasty, unnecessary changes and edits that have a detrimental impact to the overall quality of the article. --GoneIn60 (talk) 17:03, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Exactly what conclusions did I "jump" to? You carelessly and purposely disregarded the Wikipedia revert rules, thereby deleting @Drmies good edits. And then falsely accused me of creating a "wall of text", when in fact there was, by Wikipedia definition, no such "wall of text" until you crammed every one of my separate multiple- threaded individual suggestions into this single thread. But I already stated my suggestions clearly and concisely. I am not going to rehash them, and especially not with someone who makes false accusations after they themselves simultaneously violated 3 Wikipedia policies in the process of their own hypocrital actions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FB91:1003:2696:D89B:E5AF:589:A31F (talk) 21:39, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

The intentions were not malicious. That's the conclusion you seem to be stuck on. Also, Drmies' good faith edits were restored. Focusing on the contributor is not the way forward at this point. If you decide you want to turn this into a productive conversation, I'm all ears, but I'm not going to read through your wall of text, which is exactly what that is. Maybe someone else will. If that's what you're banking on, good luck with that. --GoneIn60 (talk) 22:03, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Also the reason given for your edit here doesn't make any sense. Lead sections are a brief summary of an article's most important aspects. Obviously as a summary, it's going to repeat information down in the body. In fact, a general rule of thumb is that the info must be in the body before it can be emphasized in the lead (see WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY). Removing it from the body but leaving in the lead runs counter to this logic. --GoneIn60 (talk) 22:24, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Collapsed WP:PA

Are you that dense that you don't see that what you did by cramming all of my suggestions into this single thread is the only cause of this "wall of text". YOU created this "wall of text". But if you really want to see a wall of text, try reading the whole Cedar Point article- That article that you think you are preventing "hasty, unnecessary changes and edits that have a detrimental impact to the overall quality of the article." Seriously? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FB91:1003:2696:D89B:E5AF:589:A31F (talk) 22:19, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Just gave you an example of an unconstructive edit you performed. As for this talk page, it doesn't matter if you divide your wall up into separate sections or put it under one section, it's still a wall. The main reason why I put it in one section has to do with the way this page archives automatically. With that many level 2 sections, older threads are forced to archive prematurely. Eventually, your series of posts would have been split up as well. I was doing you and other editors a favor. --GoneIn60 (talk) 22:27, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Well, in that regard and when that time comes, I will be very capable of salvaging any or all of my archived texts on my own. So you see, there was never any need at all, for you to violate that "wall of text" rule on my behalf. But thanks so very much for your compassionate concerns for my, or should I now say "your", long, long, long list of suggestions, sweetie. And I'll have a few more suggestions for you etc. when I return with a new user account here. Kisses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FB91:1003:2696:D89B:E5AF:589:A31F (talk) 02:55, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

@gonein60

So far, so good, with your progress on cleaning up this Article! And hopefully when I return here with a new user account in the near future, there will be a lot less work to do here. And if you would please leave this specific thread as it is, for purposes of my future discussions with you about how best to proceed on some of my many other current suggestions. One of which, was the proper placement of images within the proper section of an article. I recall seeing a Wikipedia procedure about that, if perhaps it is one of the procedures here with which you are not familiar. At any rate, and in that regard, you seem to have now restored images in improper sections, which I had previously removed from those sections. But I don't wish to get overly critical with you about these things. Including the fact that the Cedar Point signage shown in the one image, is not technically located anywhere near the CP parkinglot. I notice from other contributors' discussions with you, in these same threads etc., that you are a stickler for technicalities, which is fine, and I am certain thar you will continue to apply that same standard to each and every one of your edits. Anyway, I hope that you don't object that this was an overly wordy Thankyou. But thanks. I will presumably have more suggestions, and surely more praise, to include here in the near future. 2607:FB91:1003:2696:D89B:E5AF:589:A31F (talk) 18:09, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

I compared the previous version of the page with the current, and it looks like you only made two changes in regard to images. The historical marker, you moved from left to right, and you removed the Cedar Point beach image. I think it makes sense to keep the marker where it's at now, which is to the left of the paragraph that mentions 1870. And while I agree an updated image of Cedar Point beach would be preferable, I'm not seeing a reason to remove that prior to getting one. What's the issue? Am I missing something? As for the Cedar Point logo you mentioned above, did anything change between 1979 and 1984 other than the trademark? I'm not sure that's a deal-breaker if that's the only change. --GoneIn60 (talk) 19:02, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

This is exactly why Wikipedia has established a proper procedure of reassessing each edit individually, rather than simply doing a mass revert.

Therefore, for the time being, I will refrain from engaging in any discussions about my edits or my suggestions. Honestly, I had hoped that I wouldn't need to return at all. I thought that I was very concise about my reasons for my edits, and the reasoning behind my additional suggestions. And I believe that Wikipedia policies in regard to the nature of these encyclopedic articles, are fully in agreement with my actions. However, it has now become clear to me that the only way to improve this Article, is for me to become fully engaged as a registered member. In that regard, I will have more time for that in the near future. And at which time, I will also fully familiarize myself with the specific Wikipedia policies which support my positions, so that I can refer you directly to those policies.

I presume there is no real urgency. Anyway, in the meanwhile, be sure to double-check your own and others' edits by viewing them on a smartphone. For instance, the 'tables' in this Article look like a giant mess on a smartphone. I assume that Wikipedia is not just merely intended for NON-smartphone users? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FB91:1006:544C:41AD:44C5:8D35:BA09 (talk) 02:03, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

By the way, when I mentioned about that CP trademarked logo, my point was that in addition to being labeled wrongly, it also serves no real purpose of enhancing this Article. Perhaps it would serve a better purpose in the Cedar Fair article. It's difficult to say without reassessing and revamping the entire Cedar Fair article also, but at the moment, that is outside of my range of interest here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FB91:1006:544C:41AD:44C5:8D35:BA09 (talk) 02:25, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

"I will refrain from engaging in any discussions about my edits"

For someone who is concerned about being reverted, this is not the attitude or right approach to have. You are expected to discuss concerns about your edits, and if you are unwilling, then there's no point in dropping complaints on the talk page. Improvement is subjective in some cases. Just make sure you are keeping good faith toward other editors who want the same.

As for image placement, staggering images left and right is permitted. The downside of doing that, however, is that text can sometimes be squeezed into an unreadable format on mobile devices (or any device with a low screen resolution). Typically, you want a lot of text separating images to avoid that issue. Let me investigate that and reconsider having the landmark plaque image on the left. If a left image is placed too high in the article and runs into the infobox, it can cause issues like you've described.

when I mentioned about that CP trademarked logo...Perhaps it would serve a better purpose in the Cedar Fair article.

Well, it is a "Cedar Point" logo and this is the "Cedar Point" article. I don't see how it's inappropriate to have it here, considering this is also common in other amusement park articles that have a lot of content. --GoneIn60 (talk) 17:08, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) As an update to image placement, I have no issues viewing the page in Chrome on my phone. Chrome centers the image between paragraphs and ignores left and right placement. As for charts, they require you to scroll the page left and right to see the entire chart. It's not pretty, but it's intact. That doesn't mean we abolish the charts altogether, however. --GoneIn60 (talk) 17:49, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Off-topic discussion about behavior, not about the article Cedar Point

I was very succinct when I stated that I will return to discuss any editing issues you wish, at a later time and as a registered user and after I have had sufficient time to familiarize myself with specific Wikipedia policies so that I can refer you directly to those policies. So I have to wonder why you are already criticizing my decision about that. Unless perhaps you have already decided that you are above and exempt from any Wikipedia policy which I might quote? Anyway, in regard to any image repositioning, I did no such thing. So I suggest you revert your entire reversion back to my most recent edit, and then you can properly critique my edits one at a time, as per proper Wikipedia procedure. And also note that there does not seem to be any appearance of left/right positioning on a smartphone. So why you seem obsessed with such positioning, is even more curious. My objections to the images were that, on a smartphone, they appear in article sections of which they have absolutely no connection. I am sure you yourself are very capable of accessing and perusing the Wikipedia rule about image suitability, without my having to direct you directly to that rule. If not, I will be glad to direct you to it, et al, when time permits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FB91:1006:544C:41AD:44C5:8D35:BA09 (talk) 17:37, 15 November 2021 (UTC) See my last comment above on image placement. I had that typed before your response, but didn't submit it right away. Images look fine in the Chrome browser on my phone. You also keep saying policies are being violated, but there's no such thing happening here. I did the courtesy of correcting some of the valid edits that were accidentally reverted. Mistakes happen, but it's not the end of the world. That doesn't exempt the fact that some of the edits I reverted had good reason to be, and your explanation of why you performed them is missing. You're stuck on the mistake (which has been corrected) instead of focusing on the rest of the revert (which is valid). You do not need to be a registered user to have this discussion. --GoneIn60 (talk) 17:53, 15 November 2021 (UTC) My explanations for each of my individual edits, are exactly where Wikipedia provided the space for those explanations. However, your individual reasons for disputing my edits, are not in the proper space provided, because you did a mass revert. The only way for you to properly approach your oversight, is to undo your mass revert, and then place any comments upon each individual revert which you perform. But you have refused to do that, so, yes, Wikipedia procedures indeed continue to be violated, until those prior violations are properly rectified. Your present piecemeal approach is not in sync with Wikipedia policy, and certainly doesn't rectify your initial oversight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FB91:1006:544C:41AD:44C5:8D35:BA09 (talk) 19:59, 15 November 2021 (UTC) What has happened is that you tried a change, it was partially reverted (because some of your changes have been reinstated), and now we are discussing on the talk page...EXCEPT, you have stated that you prefer a one-sided discussion where you provide reasons and expect changes to happen, but you don't care to discuss them any further with editors that may have a problem with those edits. The ball is in your court. I have already explained why the revert was done on some edits, and even dug further into the minor concerns about images and charts. As of this post, you still have not addressed the fact that the images display fine on the mobile Chrome browser, which is contradicting your claim that there is a problem. --GoneIn60 (talk) 20:57, 15 November 2021 (UTC) Also as an FYI, you may want to start with looking over WP:BRD. This is not a policy or guideline per se, but it is accepted etiquette here on Wikipedia. You shouldn't take a reversion personally. Instead, it is an opportunity to discuss in more detail on the talk page while we stick with the status quo in the meantime. Everything moving forward should be based on consensus. Hopefully that helps. --GoneIn60 (talk) 20:59, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

In the spirit of trying to move the discussion forward, I went back and took a closer look at the various points you made.

• Let's start with this one:

"My objections to the images were that, on a smartphone, they appear in article sections of which they have absolutely no connection."

Regarding images, here are the edits you made: diff1.

You removed the entrance sign image from the lead section without placing it anywhere else in the article. I disagree with blanket removal, but I'm willing to compromise on placing it elsewhere in the article. Open to suggestions, but being the entrance sign to the park, I don't think it's necessarily out of place in the lead. Your proposed removal seems unrelated to your reasoning above, since its presence in the lead introductory section is where one might expect to see the park's logo or entrance sign.

Also in that series of edits, you removed the Cedar Point Beach image. I won't repeat the reason I gave earlier for retaining it, but I'll clarify that I'm not strongly opposed to its removal. It shows an area outside of the park, and the article section it resides in does cover off-site amenities, but the beach is not specifically mentioned in this section. We could either expand the section to mention the beach area right outside of the park's perimeter, or we could simply remove the image as you originally proposed. I'm willing to concede that either decision is an acceptable path forward at this point. I'll leave that up to you.

• Now let's look at the rest of your edits: diff2

1. From the lead section, you removed two statements. The one regarding Steel Vengeance was retained (I disagreed), while the other was not (I agreed). Perhaps you would care to explain why you removed the statement about Steel Vengeance. I don't see that you've addressed that anywhere on this talk page.
2. Further down, you removed several statements from the top of the History section that covers some of the history leading up to Cedar Point's formation. I think I've already addressed why I disagreed with that removal, and if you'd like to discuss further, I'm all ears.
3. In the roller coasters section, you removed a statement about Cedar Point's coaster ranking and the number of coasters. I already addressed this above as well. You called this redundant, but I think that was an educational issue on your part, not realizing that the lead section contains information that is mentioned in the body.

The other remaining changes you made were reverted initially, but they have all since been restored. So the above three examples, as well as your proposed image removal, are the only remaining differences left to discuss. --GoneIn60 (talk) 09:31, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Off-topic discussion about behavior, not about the article Cedar Point

And once again you completely ignore the problem you created by doing a mass revert. All of your above objections belong attached to each individual revert on the article page. That is the proper Wikipedia procedure, and for obvious good reasons. One reason being that the objections will remain forever attached to each revert, so that future contributors can also see your reasoning. Because, and exactly as you already stated, these talk-page discussions rapidly dissappear from easy access. But what I still don't understand is why someone who broke multiple rules in their very first interaction with me, why does that same person think that they would have any credibility whatsoever with me, by them disputing my reasoning? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FB91:1006:544C:41AD:44C5:8D35:BA09 (talk) 18:10, 16 November 2021 (UTC) And by the way: no, technically I did not remove the image of the entrance sign to the park, because technically that signage is not at the entrance to the park, technically. And as to your other disputes with my edits and suggestions: all in due time, my friend. All in due time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FB91:1006:544C:41AD:44C5:8D35:BA09 (talk) 19:33, 16 November 2021 (UTC) "All of your above objections belong attached to each individual revert on the article page. That is the proper Wikipedia procedure..." Not quite, amigo. Edit summaries are a good starting point, but they are not a substitute for talk page discussion – the preferred method to address disputes. Per WP:BRD: Don't assume that an edit summary can constitute "discussion". There is no way for others to respond. You can use the article's talk page (preferred) or the editor's user talk page, or invite the editor to the talk page if they insist on using only edit summaries, but one or the other is the proper forum for the discussion... As for talk page threads getting archived, even you've admitted they're easy to locate. It's a simple process using the provided links at the top of the talk page. Also when I said, "archive prematurely", this is no way meant rapid disappearance. In fact, the archive settings on this page won't archive a thread until it's at least 6 months old. Some stick around even longer depending on the number of new threads generated over time (again, why I collapsed yours into one to reduce that number). Archiving serves a purpose, primarily to reduce clutter, and it can always be disabled or have its frequency modified. You keep harping on "multiple rules" getting broken along with other silly accusations instead of focusing on the task at hand. For someone who claims to be new here, it's pretty naive to lob such allegations with confidence, unless of course your goal is to kill the conversation. A path forward is staring you right in the face; don't waste your time choosing a path that leads backward. --GoneIn60 (talk) 20:39, 16 November 2021 (UTC) @gonein60: you spoke volumes with your comment about "silly accusations". It seems very clear now that you feel that you personally can pick and choose which Wikipedia rules are valid rules, and which ones that you personally are exempt. And instead of you doing the only acceptable method of rectifying your improper mass revert, you have instead decided to create an entirely new process to justify that mass revert. But sorry, there is only one approved method to get beyond your mass revert. Which becomes more and more difficult to rectify, as time passes. But in the meanwhile, and while you are still merely making excuses for your actions rather than properly rectifying them, however, I am currently instead utilizing this same time to study all the Wikipedia rules. And it turns out that you are in violation of a lot more of those "silly" rules, than was even first apparent. So, therefore, when I finally feel that I have made myself fully aware of which of the Wikipedia rules you have completely ignored, or which you have simply misrepresented, I will be glad to point them all out to you, here, at my first convenience after becoming a registered user also at my first convenience. By the way, and if you wish, that list will also include your interactions with other contributors, not just with me. Because I see now that this was not the first mass revert that you have performed. Nor do I notice among accepted Wikipedia procedures, that the phrase "reverted to last stable version" is anywhere mentioned as a reason for any good-faith edits, and certainly not as a valid reason for a totally prohibited mass revert. Yet, curiously, you seem to have a penchant for repeatedly utilizing that phrase. Please let me know if you wish me to include other such examples, to you here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FB91:100B:6017:F4FF:50E5:88FA:F8B7 (talk) 15:58, 20 November 2021 (UTC) You're free to do as you wish. I will also see if we can get a third party to look this over and add some uninvolved, outside perspective. I've tried to push this forward by focusing the discussion on content, but those efforts have been unsuccessful. This talk page doesn't need to filled with discussion about behavior. That's not what article talk pages are for; there are better venues for that. Also, if it helps, the relevant policies regarding editing content and discussion can be found at WP:EPTALK and WP:AVOIDEDITWAR. Other concepts about editing in general are at EPTALK further up on the page. If you have further concerns you'd like to discuss with me unrelated to article content, then they should be addressed in another venue, either on one of our talk pages or at an administrator noticeboard. --GoneIn60 (talk) 17:32, 20 November 2021 (UTC) And just a heads up...I went ahead and opened an ANI discussion: WP:ANI#Stalled content dispute gets consumed by editing behavior concerns --GoneIn60 (talk) 19:01, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Good Article status

In my opinion, and in the present condition of this article, its Good Article status could easily be challenged. Besides the current issues with its general composition, but there are several additional topics being crammed into this topic. As a result, there is no reasonable space here for other important aspects, such as the fact that independent companies and Concessionaires operated the resort's amusement section etc.. prior to the 1960s. So until the incidental individual topics are separated into their own appropriate Articles, then this CP article should not be considered to be a Good Article. Especially, the fact that the topic of the Cedar Point peninsula seems to be solely integrated into this Article, when in fact the CP peninsula is approximately still 6 miles long, but the resort only occupies a mile or so, of it. The remainder of this geographic area is residential. Clearly the geographic aspect requires a separate Article. And of course the present integration of many things which instead belong in the Cedar Fair company Article, need moved into that Cedar Fair article. That won't be quite as easy a task, due to an obvious overlap between the predecessor Cedar Fair companies, versus the topic of the actual physical resort, of which this CP article encompasses. But that task also still needs accomplished regardless, to make room here for a lot of missing but important additional information. Therefore, my first task as a future registered user, will be to determine if the Good Article status needs to be officially challenged. 2607:FB91:1006:544C:41AD:44C5:8D35:BA09 (talk) 15:03, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Updated comment: there certainly seems to be a sudden attempt to clean up this Article. Unfortunately, some portions of that attempt seem to be setting it back even further from being a Good Article. So here's a hint: unless a person was a sole owner of the business, it would not seem reasonable to solely credit that person's accomplishments. Meaning that each and all of the companies, who operated the physical business, would typically deserve more prominent mention and by precise company-name, for encyclopedic purposes within this specific Article, than any particular individual person who was perhaps merely a stockholder or merely a company executive. In contrast, each individual person who was co-involved as such in each company, would typically instead perhaps warrant prominent mention in the predecessor companies of Cedar Fair, and within that specific Article about Cedar Fair. However, in the recent edits here, it seems that the complete opposite approach is occurring here. I wish I had time to elaborate, but unfortunately this will have to be my last suggestion until after the holidays. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FB91:100B:6017:F4FF:50E5:88FA:F8B7 (talk) 19:05, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

p.s., another contributor to this Article, had already attempted to create a Draft for the Cedar Point Pensinsula. It looks like it needs a little cleanup, but essentially it looks adequate. That contributor also mentions some worthwhile potential additions, on that Draft's talk page, including some sort of apparently significant connection to a former OSU laboratory somewhere on the 7 mile long peninsula. Anyway if anyone who truly wishes to improve this CP business-enterprise Article was actually willing to take a look at that Draft and evaluate why it was previously rejected for Article status, that would save a lot of time, because that geographic CP Peninsula article is essential, so that this CP business-enterprise Article can be put in Good Article shape again. Here is that Draft:https://en.m.wiki.x.io/wiki/Draft:Cedar_Point_(Lake_Erie) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FB91:100B:2D6C:84D3:617C:5031:C149 (talk) 19:35, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Are you asking us to wait to make any edits until the Good Article status is removed? How do we go about removing the Good Article status? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:0:902:0:0:0:17 (talk) 20:04, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

If you think this article is no longer up to good article standards, then you may follow the instructions listed at WP:GAR. Note, however, that this process can only be initiated by registered users. Furthermore, the good article reassessment must undergo a check against the good article criteria; a delisting almost never happens immediately.

In the meantime, you may put the template {{GAR request}} at the top of the article if you think the good article criteria are no longer being fulfilled and that it would necessitate major cleanup. – Epicgenius (talk) 23:52, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

The editor you are addressing has been blocked for personal attacks and won't be responding anytime soon. If you are affiliated with that editor in any way, you should disclose that. --GoneIn60 (talk) 01:19, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Gonein60, aren't you the one who directed us here from the dispute board? now are you casting aspersions because some of us disagree with your viewpoint? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:0:902:0:0:0:12 (talk) 17:44, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

SFMM 20 Roller Coasters Instead Of 19

I know this is a really small detail but with the opening of Wonder Woman: Flight Of Courage on the 16th of July, Six Flags Magic Mountain now has 20 operating roller coasters instead of 19 2605:B100:E006:65F6:9D3E:E796:807B:20ED (talk) 00:00, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Updated, thanks. --GoneIn60 (talk) 04:55, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Coaster total.

The new Wild Mouse coaster will open on 2023 Opening Day. Is it too soon to change CP's coaster total from 15 to 16? I'll wait to see if I hear back from any other editors. I don't wanna cause a fuss by prematurely changing it. Thanks. SummeRStorM79 (talk) 17:16, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for checking. Please wait until the coaster actually opens. Let's not forget what happened with Maverick.—JlACEer (talk) 17:50, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Well, I kind of knew twas gonna happen. Someone couldn't wait & went ahead & changed the coaster total. Does it need to be re-edited back? I'm not gonna mess with it, but did wanna get your feedback? SummeRStorM79 (talk) 14:46, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Top thrill removed

Top thrill needs removed as it has been retired by CP 98.28.176.97 (talk) 16:27, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Top Thrill Dragster's status is SBNO (Standing, but not operating). The 420-foot tall hill is still very much at the park, but everything else is about removed, demolished and gone. It's not 100% removed/retired as of May 2023. 72.240.14.59 (talk) 01:36, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Top Thrill is being modified in some way but will reopen in 2024 according to the park. We have it marked as "Closed" until it reopens. We no longer recognize SBNO as a status, since it has been deemed a jargon enthusiast term. -- GoneIn60 (talk) 14:43, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Shouldn't the page be updated to reflect the news Cedar Point just released about Top Thrill 2?

https://news.yahoo.com/cedar-point-debut-world-tallest-155950142.html Fishnet37222 (talk) 17:00, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

The news was just released today, so it took some to get it into the article, but it's there now. More details are still needed on ride specifications. --GoneIn60 (talk) 17:06, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Correction: It has been added to the main Top Thrill 2 article. This article still needs work. Will begin soon. --GoneIn60 (talk) 17:07, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

It's ineffective to merge the Top Thrill Dragster information into the new Top Thrill 2. They are essentially two different subjects. The percentage of former and remaining Top Thrill Dragster components, is such a minor percentage, that Top Thrill 2 is technically not the same as Top Thrill Dragster. The mere fact that Cedar Fair opted to also re-utilize part of that former name, is not sufficient reason to simply and solely merge the information for Top Thrill 2, with Top Thrill Dragster's information. 2607:FB91:174F:9AEB:1544:BB1:BA38:FB0E (talk) 07:28, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

The same was done for Steel Vengeance (formerly Mean Streak), Twisted Colossus (formerly Colossus), and Iron Gwazi (formerly Gwazi), the latter of which has even been promoted to a Featured Article. It's actually ineffective to split a medium-sized article into two short articles, forcing editors to navigate to two different pages to learn the entire history of an attraction. If the modifications, redesign, name changes, etc., are all considered an evolution of the ride, then it makes sense for that evolution to be described in one place. If you still disagree, consider beginning a new discussion at Talk:Top Thrill 2 where the discussion belongs. --GoneIn60 (talk) 08:27, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion also belongs HERE. The coaster in question is not some independent attraction in the middle of nowhere. It is obviously an integral part of the Cedar Point article. And the fact that you now dispute that, is highly disturbing, and also the fact that you are equating coasters that were indeed "modified", with this one that has been almost totally removed for the, almost entirely, new construction. 2607:FB91:174F:9AEB:1544:BB1:BA38:FB0E (talk) 15:48, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

These examples are similar. Not one original track element remains on any of them. Some of the original support structure was retained in each case, but the track layout is completely different, producing a completely different experience. I mean, they were all wooden coasters that were transformed into steel coasters! That's a big transformation, probably even more so than Top Thrill 2. Yet, in each situation, the article was simply renamed. Your argument that we should treat those differently than Top Thrill 2 doesn't make any sense. --GoneIn60 (talk) 16:47, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Cedar Fair currently seems to be promoting Top Thrill 2 as a new coaster. Not a modified one. Perhaps if you, etc., are patient, instead of jumping forward with assumptions, the several articles which will be affected by the new coaster, will be better comprehended by the people for whom these articles are intended. Need I point out that these articles are NOT intended as a sole expression of your, etc., personal opinion, or an extension of your personal domain? 2607:FB91:174F:9AEB:1544:BB1:BA38:FB0E (talk) 17:00, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Do you think any of those examples were promoted as the same coaster? Curious to hear your explanation, because that still isn't making any sense. --GoneIn60 (talk) 17:03, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

It depends upon your definition of "same coaster". i.e. Steel Vengeance is the same CONFIGURATION as Mean Streak in its overall course. It merely no longer shakes the brains out of its riders. 2607:FB91:174F:9AEB:1544:BB1:BA38:FB0E (talk) 17:19, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

In just one example, the LA Times wrote, "...a rehab project such as Twisted Colossus allows a park to renovate an aging ride at a reduced cost while marketing the makeover as a "new" ride" (article link). So despite your claim, Twisted Colossus was marketed as a new coaster, and like the others, it should have been. --GoneIn60 (talk) 17:19, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

I challenge you to make a list of the technical changes, and the similarities, from Dragster to TT2. If, after you compile that list, and you still are confident that the former one has simply been merged into the latter one, then feel free to continue your current apples-or-oranges reasoning. 2607:FB91:174F:9AEB:1544:BB1:BA38:FB0E (talk) 17:26, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

No, that's quite alright. On Wikipedia, we replicate what the sources are saying and avoid original research. If you feel a change is needed, then the WP:ONUS is on you to seek consensus for the changes you want to make. You can begin the process by opening a new discussion at Talk:Top Thrill 2 to discuss your concerns. You, of course, are free to continue the discussion here, but for splitting the article in two, that discussion really belongs on that article's talk page. --GoneIn60 (talk) 17:33, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

"Splitting the article in two" is exactly what YOU are ultimately achieving. My recommendation is instead to restore the Dragster article, and create a separate article for this almost entirely new TT2. So much easier. And so much more easily comprehended by the readers, that way. 2607:FB91:174F:9AEB:1544:BB1:BA38:FB0E (talk) 17:49, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

"so much more easily comprehended by the readers" – If you say so, but I'm not convinced for the same reasons the other examples listed above have just one article. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. This will likely be my last comment here about it. --GoneIn60 (talk) 18:01, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Ultimately, the examples you provided, may be "oranges" instead of this potentially new "apple". Only time will tell, based upon the sources that appear in the meanwhile. But also in the meanwhile, you personally have introduced confusion into the Cedar Point article, about a coaster that doesn't yet exist. Which is extremely perplexing, considering the amount of past criticism which has emminated from you, towards other contributors who are over-anxious to edit without first consulting the appropriate sources. 2607:FB91:174F:9AEB:1544:BB1:BA38:FB0E (talk) 18:19, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

I have no issue with removing Top Thrill 2 that's listed in the Cedar Point ride chart. In fact, that is probably a good idea, since as you stated the ride hasn't opened yet. Coverage of Top Thrill 2 could remain in prose only in the History section or some other section. Is that what you are proposing? -- GoneIn60 (talk) 18:29, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

You seem to be misinterpreting the initial complaint. Which was the fact that you yourself are intent on describing this as a "modified" coaster, but self-admittedly without you accessing reliable sources which support your personal viewpoint. 2607:FB91:177A:433B:38B8:60B9:EBF0:2F3B (talk) 08:55, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

p.s. I see that, in one particular instance, you had quoted a news source which made speculations about TT2. So I guess that you are of the opinion that Wikipedia is not merely encyclopedic, but also omniscient about events that haven't yet occurred. Hopefully some future editor of your contributions will be less reliant upon speculation. 2607:FB91:177A:433B:38B8:60B9:EBF0:2F3B (talk) 01:21, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Verifiable speculation is acceptable. Read WP:CRYSTAL. I have no idea what exactly you are referring to since you didn't provide any examples. Also, check the page history to verify I was the one that added something before hurling accusations about my actions. -- GoneIn60 (talk) 02:59, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Zistel

In the event that anyone else has the opportunity to actually edit this Article, and without being forced into a lengthy discussion, or a purposeful edit-war causing a lock-down of the Article: note that despite assertions in a recent edit to the Cedar Fair article, however, there was no known business operating at this location in 1872-1877, and even Zistel's 1870 attempt could hardly be classified as successful, because there is no actual evidence that his transport service operated for more than a few weeks during that year, while he was simultaneously transporting patrons separately to other Lake Erie destinations. And by 1873 he had sold his steamboat 'Young Reindeer' to a Toledo company, and afterward there were no known transports to Cedar Point, nor was Zistel involved with his prior business, because he was instead busy operating his own new resort, Atlantic Gardens, within Sandusky City. And several sources state that there still was no dedicated transport in 1878 when James West built a bathouse on the CP peninsula, and the only actual contemporaneous mention of West's operation, indicates that West was reducing the rates of his bathingsuit rentals, which would seem to indicate a lull in patronage. But any modern sources which indicate that there were "resort seasons" here between 1872-1877, are simply mistaken or else intentionally misleading. 2607:FB91:100B:2D6C:84D3:617C:5031:C149 (talk) 02:06, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Go ahead and make changes. Editors are encouraged to be bold and fix articles themselves. The article doesn't say anything specific about Zistel's success, nor does it say there were resort seasons between 1872-1877, so it's unclear what you're arguing against. --GoneIn60 (talk) 02:19, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

I don't think they were arguing about anything. Maybe it was just meant as helpful information for any of us interested in working to improve this article so the general public has access to information that isn't being told on other websites? Isn't that the whole purpose of Wikipedia to be the place to find information which other websites don't have? Not just being a website where editors copy information which is already available on a lot of other websites anyway? What would be the point of only doing that? People could just go to the other websites for that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:387:0:902:0:0:0:17 (talk) 19:51, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

the whole purpose of Wikipedia to be the place to find information which other websites don't have - To comment on this quickly. The "point" of Wikipedia, as you say, is to reflect the important details as reported in reliable sources, not to host information that isn't available on other websites. If the source is in print, fine, but Wikipedia should not be reflecting anything that isn't in any reliable sources. However, may I also note that Wikipedia is also licensed under the Creative Commons, while other sites may be copyrighted so, in fact, reflecting information from sources is not the only "point" of Wikipedia. – Epicgenius (talk) 23:46, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Improvement is welcome. Just be prepared to cite reliable sources for any new claims you add to the article. --GoneIn60 (talk) 01:23, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

The above statement is interesting, it is nothing more than speculation. The nameless IP debater has offered no proof or links to back up these theories. While we do know that Zistel sold his steamship in 1873, that alone does not mean that people stopped coming to the resort. We know there was a dock, we know there were facilities. We know that the beach was a popular picnic area. Maybe he sold his steamboat because people didn't need transportation and that particular enterprise proved nonlucrative. There are other sources that indicate people used sailboats and private boats to get to the beach. We know that Zistel had other enterprises but does this prove that he abandoned the facilities that he built at Cedar Point? Who's to say he didn't hire a manager to oversee the operation at the point? Maybe he sold it. Do we know for certain that the bathhouse or beer garden did not open? If people were visiting the beach, using the facilities and having a good time, how is that not a season? The fact is we do not know what was happening between 1870 and 1877 because there is not enough documentation. The park celebrated the 150th anniversary of the first known commercial enterprise, which most historians agree was in 1870. It may be a stretch to claim 150 continuous seasons, but until someone can offer more proof, I wouldn't call it mistaken or intentionally misleading.—JlACEer (talk) 00:26, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Well said! --GoneIn60 (talk) 00:43, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm personally still perplexed by the above statement that "we know there was a dock" beginning in 1870. Source, please? 2607:FB91:177A:433B:38B8:60B9:EBF0:2F3B (talk) 01:31, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

p.s. according to the CP p.r. guy's own CP history published in Inland Seas, it was Capt.Dwelle who built the first steamboat dock in the 1880s. 2607:FB91:177A:433B:38B8:60B9:EBF0:2F3B (talk) 01:36, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

You are cherry-picking what you want to respond to by focusing on the dock. Regardless if one existed, we know there were facilities present and that Cedar Point was a popular picnic area at the time. We also know that historians agree that 1870 was the beginning. It isn't logical for them to settle on this year if it really didn't start until 1878. And regardless of what happened with Zistel between 1870 and 1877, there aren't sources that say the facilities were abandoned and that people stopped coming during that time. It's one thing to speculate and complain, but it's another to back it with reliable sources, which this IP editor has yet to do. Until that changes, this discussion is settled. Wikipedia is not the place to flesh out theories and log complaints. Take that to reddit or some other forum. --GoneIn60 (talk) 18:13, 22 August 2023 (UTC)