Talk:British Jews/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Renaming

I am renaming this article as British Jewry. If you disagree please discuss.

My intention is to organise all article on internationally Jewish communities in such a way that they interlink categorical. Presently, someone linking from say this article to 'history of french Jewry' is hopping in between diverse articles, as apposed to understanding world Jewish demographics

Chavatshimshon 19:25, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Scotland

Much is made of the fact England banned jews on this page. But there is no reference to Scotland not banning jews. If this page is about British jews, we should point out that jews were not banned from all of Britain during any period. As Scotland was independent from English law, so the expulsion had no impact on Scottish jews. Many jews lived in Scotland freely in the period of expulsion of jews from England. It is deeply annoying to read an artcile which seems to think England and Britain are the same thing. Jews were not banned from Britain as there was no British government. http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Scottish_Jews —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wooaso (talk • contribs) 23:56, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

British Jews → British Jewry {this is a none demographic term Chavatshimshon 19:34, 15 November 2006 (UTC)}

• I'm inclined to oppose, though not as strongly as for France. For starters, the term "Jewry" usually refers only to the Orthodox. For another, if this is "British" rather than English: I'm honestly unsure of this, but are there formal ties of (say) the few Jews in Scotland and Northern Ireland to the Chief Rabbi in London? - Jmabel | Talk 17:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

oppose Dor Myers the Great

Second largest in Europe

"Second largest in Europe" seems a dubious claim. What about Russia? - Jmabel | Talk 17:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Anglocentrism

This article is highly anglocentric, particularly the History section. England's government may have expelled Jews, but this did not occur in Scotland. --MacRusgail 16:19, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Current Political Issues

I'm not sure, but would this be an appropriate place to talk about the struggles (and vandalism) relating to the eruv, the legal challenges in England against Kosher meat etc?

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Disraeli...Jewish?

Some sources, including the Brittanica, state that Disraeli senior had some sort of dispute with a local Rabbi and had Benjamin baptised a christian. Aparently without Disraeli being a christian it is supposed to be unlikely that he could have entered politics.

If this is correct Disraeli comes from a distinguished Italian Jewish family but wasn't Jewish hmself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.93.199.154 (talk) 11:40, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Disraeli converted to Christianity as a teenager. The question hinges on how we define "Jew". The book "What is a Jew", by Rabbi Morris N. Kertzer and Rabbi Lawrence A. Hofman, addresses the question posed in its title in its opening chapter.

• Noting that it is hard to find a single definition of a Jew, it begins by describing the religious definition -- someone who accepts the faith of Judaism.
• It follows this up with a spiritual definition -- someone who looks to Jewish wisdom for answers to the big questions in life.
• It then gives a cultural definition: someone who without formal religious affiliation regards the "teachings of Judaism – its ethics, its folkways, its literature – as his or her own".
• Lastly, it gives the ethnic definition, saying that people used to be born as Jews; but noting the increasing number of converts to Judaism, as well as the increasing number of Jews who are "raised with no ethnic identity whatsoever", it concludes the ethnic definition "is going the way of the dinosaur", and that "in a sense all Jews are Jews by choice today":

  "A Jew is therefore a member of a people, by birth or by conversion, who chooses to share a common cultural heritage, a religious perspective, and a spiritual horizon derived uniquely from Jewish experience and Jewish wisdom."

If we were to accept that definition, Disraeli would not meet it. This also relates to the (unsourced) definition we give in our lead, which has recently been fact-tagged. --JN466 12:47, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

His biographer, Richard Aldous, says: 'Disraeli came to understand and define himself as Jewish'. Quoted in The Lion and the Unicorn (London: Pimlico, 2007), p. 17. Lachrie (talk) 17:44, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Nigella Lawson

She should not count in the head image. Fat guts' daughter only found herself to have Iberian-Sephardic ancestry when taking part in the Who Do You Think You Are? caper; that in itself does not mean she identifies as Jewish nor does it make her close enough to her past to know anything of the people, culture or tradition. Evlekis (Евлекис) 22:48, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Exactly the opposite. She thought she had Iberian-Sephardic ancestry, but discovered it was pure Ashkenazi. Both her parents were Jewish. And please don't use distasteful "nicknames" again. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:18, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Then it was my mistake, I didn't realise he (her father) was Jewish. As for "distasteful" nicknames, you need not fear, I don't use them in articles. Evlekis (Евлекис) 11:15, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Daniel Radcliffe

With regard to the inclusion of Daniel Radcliffe's photo here (which I support), I offer the following: the name of this article is British Jews, not British Judaism, and that the lede of the article explicitly notes that secular Jews are a growing part of the community. From my point of view, the point of those pictures is to show diverse examples of the subject, and in context, Radcliffe, who the sources indicate to be a non-believing child of a mixed marriage who nevertheless is "proud" to self-identify as a Jew[1], makes an excellent representative. --Arxiloxos (talk) 02:01, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps we should have a detail that explains the Jewish status of the people in the infobox - as in , mother Jewish, father catholic, subject is atheist and that such is the scope of the definition British Jew at wikipedia. I am British and as I understand it, (not how a Jew understands it, or how the many different branches of Jewish groups understand it) A British Jew is an immigrant or convert or a child of immigrants of Jewish parentage. People of mixed heritage are just that and do not belong in the infobox of this article unless you explain why they are there in the lede. Is there a shortage of British people with two Jewish parents to add their picture to the infobox, you only need nine ? - Radcliffe is not a British Jew, in Britain he's a British person with a Jewish mother and an Irish father and nothing (including wikipedia) will change that reality. Off2riorob (talk) 02:17, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Despite your extremely distasteful insistence that Radcliffe is not a "full jew" and that we need a "better jew",[2] Wikipedia actually goes by what reliable sources say, not the prejudices of editors. The fact that he says he's "very proud of being Jewish" is more than enough, and Wikipedia does need to "explain why" he's Jewish to anyone, no matter what their personal opinions are about who is or isn't as a Jew. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:45, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Off2riorob—I would think we would go by reliable sources. Do reliable sources say he's British? Do reliable sources say he's Jewish? Bus stop (talk) 03:51, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't think I've seen any reliable sources described him as "half Jew", as Off2riorob has done. I didn't know people were still applying the Mischling Test. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:09, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

I think his picture should be replace with that of Labour Leader Ed Milliband as the leader of the opposition is more important than an actor I made this change myself but it was reverted. Dont want to start an edit war so I want your opinions on whether Ed Milliband deserves to be on there and who he should replace. I would have replaced Amy Winehouse, she's a mere musician, but she died and now she's a martyr or something. Eopsid (talk) 21:51, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Miliband is reasonably well known in England, but he's never even been Prime Minister. On the other hand, Radcliffe is internationally famous, far more so than Miliband - I daresay he's better known even in England than Miliband. I have no objection to having both, but given that the montage already has a politician (one much more famous and accomplished than Miliband), Miliband shouldn't be substituted for Radcliffe. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:36, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Some sources to take into account

http://www.politicshome.com/uk/story/9880/

Quote: The Jewish Telegraph in Manchester has reported that reaction to Ed Miliband's election as Labour leader was greeted by "stunned faces", noting concern over whether he may become the "first prime minister in recent history who could not be described as a friend of Israel".

http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2010/10/01/miliband-not-a-friend-of-israel

Quote: The Jewish community have reportedly offered a mixed reaction to the election of Ed Miliband to the Labour leadership.

The Jewish Telegraph, based in the North of England, expressed a lukewarm image of Mr Miliband, who is from a Jewish background.

Its leading article argued that he had "nailed his colours to the Palestinian mast" during a fringe event at the Labour party conference.

It also claimed that he "has rarely publicly associated himself with... the Jewish community".

'http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/sep/30/ed-miliband-north-jewish-reaction

Quote: There is also recognition that for all the fame of his family's name he has "never identified with the British Jewish community". [...]

"It's an aspect of the Miliband brothers which hasn't really come up in all the many discussions we've had with friends during the election. There have been plenty of opinions one way or the other, and I think quite a few people wonder if Labour has made the right choice. But their Jewishness hasn't really figured."

One reason, suggests Neil Roland, an artist and photographer related to the Laski family, one of Manchester's great Jewish dynasties, could be that "Ed has very pointedly dismissed the Jewish side of things. He and David would not be where they are today without their Jewish background, but it is often the case that the ones from the community who make good in England, which really means making good in the secular world, are those who have given up the religious aspect."

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband-reveals-agenda-for-power-with-labour-and-a-personal-insight-6508358.html

Quote: "Obviously I'm Jewish, it is part of my identity, but not in a religious sense. I don't wish I had had a more religious upbringing but I have Jewish friends who were part of the Jewish community growing up, going to Jewish youth clubs and other things. I think I felt slightly jealous. My parents' community was the Left community."

He does not think Britons mind whether politicians are religious or not, in contrast with America: "I think that's rather a good thing and it speaks well for us as a country."

He does not regret having no faith to draw strength from. "No, because my belief comes from a set of values about the kind of society I believe in. It's a very strong part of who I am. Different people come to their politics from different vantage points. I think you can have equally strong politics." JN466 21:53, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

None of those sources amount to a hill of beans when it comes to Jewishness. The points about views on Israel are particularly irrelevant -- all sorts of Jews are rather less than keen to be thought of as "friends of Israel". It doesn't even matter that he might not see eye to eye with the organizations representing British Jewry -- as with views on Israel, there is a great deal of diversity of opinion among people who are unquestionably Jewish. As for faith -- have a look at Secular Jew. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:17, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

The only question is how Miliband self-identifies, and there are strong indications above that he has rejected self-identifying culturally and religiously as a Jew, or at least only considers that a part (and perhaps not the major part) of his identity. That's his freedom—ours to respect, and not yours to take. Period. --JN466 22:29, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

There is no such "indication" at all, and continuing attempts to "interpret" the sources to say what they don't mean is indicative of POV pushing. Viriditas (talk) 01:58, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

If that's the only question, then perhaps you could stop muddying the waters with questions you consider irrelevant (particularly when adding misleading implications). I've made plain my disagreement with your interpretation the sources regarding how he self-identifies. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:31, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

As for faith -- have a look at Secular Jew. Why when this article links to Secular Jews in the lede, and your link isn't about Secularism at all? John lilburne (talk) 00:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

JN seems to be saying that because Miliband speaks of having no faith he can't be considered Jewish. That's a misguided argument, because many Jews -- secular ones -- do not embrace a faith, something the article I linked to makes clear. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 01:34, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

The real question that needs to be asked is where are these disputes coming from? We don't create disputes in our heads and then argue about them on Wikipedia. The primary disputant,Youreallycan, appears to imply (and I'm liberally paraphrasing here) that he had "remote viewed" the BLP subject and personally determined based on his "psychic" link to Miliband, that not only could we not claim that Miliband was Jewish, but there was no such thing as a "British Jew". Are we really going to keep entertaining this kind of delusional thinking? Viriditas (talk) 01:57, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Jayen—you say that the "…only question is how Miliband self-identifies…"[3] He "self-identifies" as a Jew:

"There was no religion at home and Mr Miliband confirmed for the first time that he is an atheist. "Obviously I'm Jewish, it is part of my identity, but not in a religious sense. I don't wish I had had a more religious upbringing but I have Jewish friends who were part of the Jewish community growing up, going to Jewish youth clubs and other things. I think I felt slightly jealous."[4]

The above is an intact, whole paragraph from a reliable source. It contains, from Miliband, a clear statement. Miliband is saying that he is a nonobservant Jew. I think we need to take care not to misconstrue a phrase such as "I'm Jewish." It is a phrase which means "I'm Jewish." Bus stop (talk) 03:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't know what JN 'seems' to be say but I'll reiterate that for a start Ed Miliband is not an Israeli citizen, in fact I don't think that any of the people you have pictures of in the infobox are/were, which is what the links in the lede imply. Secondly the link you provided as an explanation is about Atheism not secularism. John lilburne (talk) 19:03, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I suspect the intended link is Jewish culture. Yworo (talk) 01:26, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

As discussed at ANI, a few weeks ago, Miliband wrote at some length about his complex relationship with his Jewishness: [5] To me, that article is a clincher and shifts the balance in favour of inclusion. So I for one would no longer object to it. The article is quite detailed and really essential reading for anyone wishing to contribute to this discussion. --JN466 18:35, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

I read it when it came out and I agree its essential reading. I am less sure its conclusive. It shows the complex relationship that many people have with a religious/ethnic background of which (as the article clearly states) they were never a part. The self-identification in that article is heavily qualified. There are however two issues here. The first, is the non-practicing issue on Jewishness in general, and there is a stronger argument there for self-identification, although I think it would have to be unqualified. The second is the criterial for inclusion in this article - its not automatic that someone who . If the article was about British people from a jewish background I would be in favour, but its about British Jews. Editors have to reach some form of agreement there about who qualifies to represent the community as a whole by being chosen for one of the pictures. I think that requires something more than the New Statesman article. Personally I think given the title of the argument it requires practice, or at the least a very strong and clear identity not a very mixed one. ----Snowded ^TALK 22:47, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

The problem here is that the article itself fails to make clear what its subject is. Is it about British people who consider themselves ethnically Jewish - in which case Miliband is a clear candidate for inclusion, given the recent NS article - or is it about something else. As I've said in the discussion at AN/I, Miliband should be included here. And then the article must make clear that it is about people who are Jewish by ethnicity (self-defined for those who are living, per WP:BLP policy), and not restricted to those of the Judaic faith. If the article isn't about this group, I fail to see how it can comply with policy. I suggest that discussions of how to make clear what the scope of the article is are continued in the thread below. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:26, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

'Most' in lede

From the lede: "Most British Jews adhere to Judaism, although there are an increasing number of secular Jews". Would it perhaps be possible to be a little more precise? The article later states that "it is estimated that 74 percent of the country's Jews are affiliated with [a synagogue]", which is a start, though being 'affiliated to a synagogue' doesn't necessarily imply 'adhering to Judaism' (or vice versa?) Then again, if by 'British Jews' one means persons who are Jewish by ethnicity, 'adhering to Judaism' and 'secular' aren't the only possibilities either. Expanding on problems with the lede a little, as I've pointed out elsewhere, [6] I think that some of the more heated debates over this article might have been avoided were it a little more obvious what its subject is - people who are both British by nationality and ethnically Jewish, regardless of faith. Making this clear in the lede is the obvious place to start. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:58, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree. At the moment the lede (and much of the article) reads more like a lede for Judaism in the United Kingdom, except that we include people in the infobox who are definitely not followers of Judaism. --JN466 18:39, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

That is the crux of the problem. As I pointed out above the lede is atrocious, I've seen stupid rows about whether Jews have divided loyalty to their country of birth/adoption and Israel, and in the lede here we have links to Israeli society. Otherwise the lede is casting British Jews mainly in the context of Judaism with a passing reference to Jewish culture. There is no allowance in the lede for inclusion based on ethnicity. Which is the problem with Miliband, we all know that he has a Jewish background via his parents, but he does not have a Jewish religious background, and neither, apparently, does he have a Jewish cultural background either. Thus including him in an article as a representative figure within British Jewry is misleading. John lilburne (talk) 22:46, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

I suspect that in a sense, Miliband is a very good example of a 'representative figure within British Jewry', in that he 'represents' a significant proportion of them in recognising his ethnicity, acknowledging his 'roots', and then actually living his life without considering the issue very often. As for the link to Israel -or more precisely, to our Hiloni article - I can only respond with a resounding WTF! Truly deranged. Or was it vandalism? It sure as hell shouldn't be there. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:42, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Note: I've replaced the misdirected link to Hiloni with one to our Secularity article for now, as though it is less than ideal (see my first post in this thread), it is less misleading. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:49, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

So we change the title to make clear its about ethnicity? That is fine with me. In those circumstances there is no objection to his inclusion----Snowded ^TALK 07:47, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't think you can do that. The problem being that "British Jews" is a synonym of "British Jewry" and whilst that may encompass people that are Jewish only on ethnic grounds, that is not normally how the term is used. If one looks at say the Board of Deputies who say that they represent British Jewry but I'm not seeing anything there that is about people that might be ethnically Jewish but not part of the religious or cultural community. It is very hard to find any such acknowledgements within the mainstream organisations, although it does appear to be an issue within the community at large. Miliband may represent that trend, but the article, as written, does not elucidate those issues within British Jewry. John lilburne (talk) 09:42, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Originally the article pointed secular to Reformed Judaism (which is some POV in itself), later Bus Stop removed that along with the links to other denominations, and edited the lede to downplay culture and ethnicity. Later 'secular jews was added with a link pointing to Secular Jewish culture which has since redirected to Jewish culture, later Secular Jews was redirected to Jewish atheism (which Nomoskedasticity linked to here) and then later redirected to the Hiloni article. Whilst this is a major problem where redirects end up pointing to things that the original editors did NOT originally intend, it is clear that a number of editors here are, despite protestations, referencing Jewry in relationship to the religion rather than to a shared culture or ethnicity. John lilburne (talk) 12:31, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Given that the present definition, "Jews who live in, or are citizens of, the United Kingdom" is absurd (to take an obvious example, Daniel Taub lives in Britain, but nobody would call him a 'British Jew', given that he is the Israeli Ambassedor) and that the text previous to Bus stop's ridiculous edit for 'crispness' seems a perfectly adequate summary of what the article is about, I'll restore it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:30, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

I've now reordered and tweaked the lede for clarity and flow, per WP:BRD. It probably needs more work, but it seems to me to be a starting point. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:44, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Population 'decline', and how not to write about it...

From the article:

From 1990 to 2006, the Jewish population showed a decrease from 340,000 Jews to 270,000. According to the 1996 Jewish Policy Review, nearly one in two are marrying people who do not share their faith.[7] From 2005 to 2008, the Jewish population increased from 275,000 to 280,000, attributed largely to the high birth rates of Haredi (or ultra-Orthodox) Jews.[8] Research by the University of Manchester in 2007 showed that 75 percent of British Jewish births were to the Haredi community.[9] Ultra orthodox women have an average of 6.9 children, and secular Jewish women 1.65.[10]

We can do better than this. A lot better. Multiple sources giving overlapping and sometimes contradictory figures for population, interspersed with material on marrying out, and on differing birth rates. I fully understand that this raises contentious issues amongst British (and other) Jews, but that is no reason for clarity of prose to suffer. I think that we need to (a) either pick a single source for population figures, or (b) make clear that data from differing sources may not be consistent. We also need to point out the obvious here - that the 'decline in population' is almost certainly down to a 'decline in identification as Jewish' - this is elementary demographics. We then need to separate the demographics from the explanations - and think about the relevance of the explanations given to the subject of the article, which may not always be obvious to a casual reader. Given that the article is about 'British Jews' regardless of whether they are followers of the Judaic faith or not, how is 'marrying people who do not share their faith' an issue here? I know the answer, or at least I hope I do (having somehow acquired a Bsc in anthropology, which should equip me to understand such issues), but it needs proper sourcing - from a source that is actually directly discussing the subject matter at hand. The Telegraph article is clearly written as an explanation for a decline of Judaism in Britain. It is unquestionably relevant - but its relevance needs to be explained. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:28, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

British people of Asian descent

As Jews are an ethnoreligious group of whom the vast majority trace their origins back to Israel (as genetic studies and other evidence has demonstrated), I included them in the British people of Asian descent.Evildoer187 (talk) 10:40, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

The genetic studies don't actually demonstrate that - they show that the majority of Jews have a genotype suggesting a significant proportion of Middle-Eastern ancestry - there are no genes specific to 'ethnoreligious groups', for obvious reasons. However, Jews of the diaspora may also show evidence in their genotype indicating some ancestry from elsewhere, as a result of intermarriage with other populations - though exogamy rates may have been relatively low, the genetic evidence for it is there. All this is rather beside the point for this article though. Geographically, the Middle East is part of Asia Minor, but it certainly isn't the norm to describe people with Middle Eastern ancestry as 'Asian'. If you want to add the category 'British people of Asian descent' to the article, I suggest that you provide a reliable source which indicates that this is a description normally used regarding Anglo-Jewry. Alternately, it may be that a category 'British people of Middle Eastern descent' might be more appropriate here - though frankly I can see no particular logic to including that either, and of course it would also require a source. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:13, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

I understand your point. There is more than just genetic evidence for a Middle Eastern origin, though. Historical and archaeological consensus also agrees that modern Jewry traces its roots back to the Hebrews of the Fertile Crescent. You are right that there is also a non-Semitic Mediterranean component in Jewish ancestry, which is mostly attributed to proselytism during the early Roman period. However, the same studies have found that the various Jewish ethnic divisions are much more closely related to each other, and to other Levantines, than they are to anyone else.

Theoretically, if there is a 'British people of Middle Eastern descent' category, I would be more than happy to supply some sources. The reason I added 'British people of Asian descent' was because I saw that British Arabs and Levantine people were included there as well. I removed it earlier because it was inaccurate, as many Arabs actually come from North Africa.Evildoer187 (talk) 21:22, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

It would appear that there is no 'British people of Middle Eastern descent' category. There is only an Asian one. In light of this discovery, it would seem that the most appropriate thing to do would be to include all of these groups under the Asian bracket. The Arab category would be placed under both the Asian and North African categories. I am also thinking of doing the same for the category pages themselves. I will provide some sources if need be, but I am not entirely certain how I can attach them to the category listings themselves. Let me know what you think.Evildoer187 (talk) 21:33, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

The last thing we need is another bunch of useless ethnic categories for tagging crap with. John lilburne (talk) 23:41, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Me and Evildoer had long discussion on my talkpage regarding similiar edits of his about who's Asian and who's European and who's Middle Eastern etc and why such edits are problematic. He seems to not fully understand the difference between Israeli and Jewish. Evildoer there's an article here called Israelis in the United Kingdom, maybe you need to check it out instead. Yuvn86 (talk) 22:33, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

I never said Israelis and diaspora Jews were categorically the same. Related? Definitely, but not the same. However, Jews are by definition an ethnic group with roots in the Middle East. That is fact. Whether or not this means they should be classified as "Asian" is a matter of dispute, depending on how you define Asian.Evildoer187 (talk) 23:40, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Jews are generally considered an ethnoreliguous rather than ethnic group, if for no other reason than that converts to Judaism of non-Jewish ethnicity are accepted as part of the Jewish community. As with all such things though, there are few 'definitely's involved. Anyway, this isn't yet another forum for 'who is a Jew' debates. Getting back to the subject, if whether Jews should be considered Asian is a 'matter of dispute', and you can't provide a source that states that this is the norm for Anglo-Jewry (or for that matter, that it is applied at all), I'd say that the case is pretty well closed here: we can't include a disputed category without a source that suggests that it is applicable. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:19, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

What defines the scope of a Wikipedia article?

User AndytheGrump justifies a revert by asserting that Halachic law does not, in the context of this article, define who is a Jew. That is, in itself, debatable; in any case it is not the sole relevant definition. Self-identification, however, certainly does come into play when deciding if an individual fits into the relevant Wiki category, and that self-identification need not involve active participation in community institutions. On that basis, the opening phrase is overly restrictive. It excludes many who can justify their claim to a Jewish identity on the basis of their heritage and their sense of cultural continuity. If the article were about British Jewry as a religious community, user Andy's revert might pass, but like all Wikipedia articles, this one should not artificially or unnecessarily restrict the scope of an article to select a particular POV on a subject area, even if it is the most popular POV, and should aim for the most general scope possible, according to http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Wikipedia:Scope. The onus of showing that the narrower definition is NOT overly restrictive therefore falls on those proposing that definition, and they should hold off reverting until that case has been made. VEBott (talk) 18:04, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Andy, given no response, I have reverted to the broader scope.

I'm curious as to which recognized authorities you would argue define a British Jew as being necessarily someone who participates in organized Jewish community life.

As you know, adherents of Halachic law do not impose any such requirement, even recognizing converts to other faiths as Jews. The Board of Deputies does not envisage any narrow definition either. Their 2010 report on Jewish community statistics pointed out that their figures, although ' indicative of actual demographic trends, only represent those Jews who have chosen, or whose families have chosen, to associate themselves with the Jewish community through a formal Jewish act, ie circumcision, marriage in a synagogue, dissolution of marriage by a beth din, or Jewish burial or cremation. Consequently, Jews who have not chosen to identify in these ways do not appear in this report.' The import is that there are no specific narrow criteria of religious involvement for those who would self-identify as Jews. Identity and active, explicit membership of a community are not logically equivalent propositions.

Your own opinion is one thing, but if you're going to narrow the scope of a Wikipedia article on an historically enduring community , I feel you ought to cite relevant authorities representative of the views of the community in question --- although you were perhaps just seeking to establish some semblance of common sense here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VEBott (talk • contribs) 23:09, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

I think we may have got at cross-purposes to some extent here. As I read the existing text, it certainly implied self-identification - "cultural and historical affiliation" - and my objection to your edit was that it appeared to remove the need for such self-identification. Your references to Halachic law (both here and in your edit summary) seem to imply that self-identification is not necessary. Perhaps you could clarify what you think the scope of this article should be. Are you saying that it is 'all British persons who self-identify as Jewish', are you saying that it is 'all British persons who are of Jewish descent', or are you saying that it is 'all British persons recognised as Jewish under Halachic law'? The last two definitions are not always compatible, and it is certainly not Wikipedia's job to define an individual's ethno-religious identity according to laws not recognised by all within the relevant ethno-religious community - which is what applying the 'Halachic law' definition would seem to imply. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:48, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Scope, which is an essay, says the scope of articles should be the topic as defined in reliable sources. (The actual guideline is Wikipedia:Disambiguation.) The means academic texts rather than religious writings. TFD (talk) 00:04, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Yep, I seem to have been a bit confused about your intent too, Andy, not having read your contributions to the talk thread properly. I'm saying that Jews are all persons who self-identify as Jewish on grounds recognisable to if not necessarily endorsed by the major Jewish communities. That includes those who are of Jewish descent without being particularly concerned about the fact as well as all those who identify as heirs of a Jewish cultural experience - including members of multi-generational atheistic families who are aware that they would be treated as Jews by others in certain circumstances. Disraeli ( a Jew and a Christian) or Miliband come to mind. The genealogical component is pretty essential except in the specific case of conversion to Judaism. VEBott (talk) 00:35, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

TFD I'm sure you're right, but no reputable academic source would tackle an issue of this kind without invoking the definitions adopted by relevant communities, be they the narrow ones of the more orthodox religious groups or the very broad one adopted by the State of Israel. In all of these, genealogy plays a major role.VEBott (talk) 00:53, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Obviously they would take into account various definitions, and form a judgment. But that is something we ourselves cannot do, because it would be original research. So we need academic sources. TFD (talk) 05:02, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree. We could hardly do better than to refer to Ben-Gurion's famous and very extensive consultation with Jewish scholars of all sorts, orthodox, liberal and secular, on this very subject. It is well covered in pages 50-60 of Jewish Survival: The Identity Problem at the Close of the Twentieth Century edited by Krausz and Tulea. The phrase I have proposed seeks to preserve the necessary ambiguity on matters of intermarriage which is where the main differences arise. If somebody can come up with a more precise alternative that does justice to the huge variety of possible responses and yet doesn't run to several paragraphs, good for them. As Professor Eliezer Ben Rafael says "For all respondents (to Ben-Gurion's question as to who is a Jew), individuals born of a Jewish mother or who have converted to Judaism according to halacha are Jews. These individuals make up the large majority of Jews even according to the most liberal formulations". VEBott (talk) 09:50, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

That is just one definition and we need academic sources, i.e., books and articles written by social scientists. All Ben Gurion tells us is who the state of Israel would consider Jewish. TFD (talk) 10:24, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I disagree. Ben_Gurion's request for responses sought to cover the whole spectrum of Jewish intellectual thought. Texts about Jewish identity were invited, in 1958, by Ben-Gurion from 50 intellectuals - rabbis, writers, scientists and lawyers -, from the Diaspora and Israel, representative of the principal streams of contemporary Jewish thought. See here . Professor Ben Rafael has sought to draw together what they had in common, not to express Ben Gurion's own conclusion. See extracts here VEBott (talk) 13:17, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Nomo, I accept the need to try to reach some kind of consensus on the basis of Wikipedia guidelines. I cannot, however, see that an article on British Jews has to be restricted to those who "maintain a connection to the Jewish community" or who are of Jewish descent - but perhaps we can compromise. First, can you cite authorities that would exclude converts to Judaism from being Jewish, as your reversion does? Secondly, can you cite any authority that demands that a person born Jewish needs to maintain anything at all in order to remain Jewish? The authorities I would cite to the contrary include the laws of the State of Israel, most scholarly interpretations of the halachic tradition, and the usual description in scholarly literature of non-practicing individuals, even converts to other religions such as Disraeli or the philosopher Simone Weil, as Jewish. VEBott (talk) 11:24, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

So if a pagan Roman woman had converted to Judaism minutes before giving birth, then returned to paganism minutes after, a child born 100 generations later through matrilineal descent would be Jewish, although they would be unaware. Certainly God would be aware, but I doubt any social scientist would consider them to be. TFD (talk) 10:51, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

A social scientist would have to know that this was the case to have an opinion about it. How, in your example, would he be aware that there was anything to consider? That's the trouble with counterfactuals and purely hypothetical arguments. They're either meaningless or of entirely formal interest. They certainly have little or no bearing on social science issues. You're assuming that 'being Jewish' is some kind of essence. Few social scientists would be so Aristotelian these days. In practice, descent implies recent documented forbears. Maintaining a record of the judaicity of a distant forbear, especially a matrilineal one, would be a deliberate act, and one would have to ask why it had been chosen. The sense in which such a descendant was Jewish would depend on that context, but in any case has little bearing on the more general question of who is a Jew today, in practice and as a social or demographic issue. VEBott (talk) 11:24, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't think there is any point to the first sentence. That sentence should be completely eliminated. I think the lead should begin with what is now the second sentence. Bus stop (talk) 11:42, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Excellent suggestion, I'll second that, since this whole discussion more properly belongs to Who is a Jew? . VEBott (talk) 12:09, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

The religious view is that it is a form of essence, which is why we should use academic sources. With mitochondrial DNA testing, it is possible to determine if someone is a matrilineal descendant of a Jewish woman, even if she lived thousands of years ago. TFD (talk) 21:01, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Really? Mitochondrial DNA can determine the ethno-religious affiliation of someone who has been dead that long? I doubt it very much. It may be possible to state e.g. that this woman was probably from the middle east, but there is no way that it could be that specific - DNA doesn't respect cultural divisions... AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:06, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

DNA testing of someone long dead cannot determine their religion, but it may be possible to determine their religion from records or the method of their burial. If a mitrochondrial sample is taken from an individual it is possible to trace direct matrilinear descendants. 40% of Askenazi Jews are matrilinear descendants of just four women, who while unknown were presumably Jewish.[11] Some people have been proven to share mitochondrial DNA with Cheddar Man, who lived 9,000 years ago. TFD (talk) 21:59, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Anyway, since Zionism was a secular movement, Ben-Gurion developed a form of jus sanguinis nationality law. All it tells us is who is Jewish according to Israeli nationality law. TFD (talk) 23:51, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Jews are ethno religious group, which means someone can be ethnically Jewish and be an atheist (based on origin/ancestry), or even consider themselves an ethnic Jew and be a Christian (converting doesn't change your origin and make you Anglo-Saxon). Jews are also a religion and someone can consider themselves Jewish after converting to Judaism regardless of ethnicity. I think the definition is wide and largely based on self definition! 94.7.154.72 (talk) 08:46, 6 January 2014 (UTC)