Talk:Berryessa/North San José station

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On 12 June 2020, it was proposed that this article be moved from Berryessa/North San Jose station to Berryessa/North San José station. The result of the discussion was page moved.

Requested move 1 December 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Calidum 03:12, 17 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Berryessa/North San José station → Berryessa/North San Jose station – Consensus on various past requested move discussions is that the diacritical mark on the "e" on "Jose" should not be included on the titles of San Jose, California and its related articles. These past discussions include Talk:San Jose, California#Requested move 23 July 2016, Talk:San Jose International Airport#Requested move 12 February 2017 and Talk:San Jose Public Library#Requested move 5 November 2018. The rationale is that the "e" without the mark is the common name, regardless if the spelling with the mark is the official name. Zzyzx11 (talk) 06:22, 1 December 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 04:15, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose San José should never have been moved to an e-removed spelling in the first place. It is still pronounced San José, not San-Johz. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:46, 1 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm refraining from voting until we see what actual BART signage says. Mjdestroyerofworlds (talk) 19:48, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - As of March 2018, signage was simply "Berryessa" (see this photo for example). Pi.1415926535 (talk) 22:12, 3 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    - referring more to maps and timetables and i suppose operator announcements (convention in addition to signage), but yes, that is very convenient labeling on the building itself in big letters. Mjdestroyerofworlds (talk) 00:44, 4 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:CONSISTENCY with the other San Jose articles, along with WP:ENGLISH in which we don't use diacritics. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:22, 5 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

WP:ENGLISH says "The use of modified letters (such as accents or other diacritics) in article titles is neither encouraged nor discouraged; when deciding between versions of a word which differ in the use or non-use of modified letters, follow the general usage in reliable sources that are written in the English language (including other encyclopedias and reference works)." Dekimasuよ! 18:01, 16 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Opening delayed numerous times; updates are needed

The line should be renamed, from Orange2019 to Orange2020.

The official VTA website has not been updated, to reflect the latest project delay. The SJ Mercury has reported it was pushed back from late 2019 to 2020. BART and VTA are being coy about the actual project schedule, "trains probably won’t start taking passengers to those stations until sometime in 2020." ( www.mercurynews.com/2019/10/01/san-jose-bart-delay-milpitas-berryessa-stations-likely-to-miss-2019-opening/) 166.107.163.254 (talk) 23:11, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Be careful. The Mercury News article says "likely". A delay to 2020 may yet happen but that isn't an adequate source for it by WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. The BART Board of Directors presentation slides from October 10 (see attachment 6-B) sheds more light on it. We should find out in the coming week if VTA has actually missed the deadline. It says as of a BART/VTA meeting on Oct 1, VTA had 52 high priority issues to fix by Oct 20 in order to support opening the Berryessa extension by Dec 28. It also says BART will incur financial penalties, but does not say from which contract those come, if the extension doesn't open by Dec 28. So it appears both agencies are currently determined to make that date. I live near the BART line between the 2 new stations and see workers there every day and evening. A friend spotted a BART train at Berryessa Station last Wednesday as part of the testing. Ikluft (talk) 23:58, 13 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Official station name

This article has seen some back and forth about whether "North San José" is part of the BART station name and whether it's spelled with an accent mark. I'm not interested in wading into a broader discussion about diacritics and common names, but just to be clear, the official station name is indeed "Berryessa/North San José", double-barreled and with an accent mark. The full station name is being used in at least the following locations:

The BART system map effective June 2020 labels the station "Berryessa/North San José" and refers to "Berryessa/North San José–Richmond" and "Berryessa/North San José–Daly City" lines.
Station identification signs above the platforms alternate between "Berryessa" and "North San José". [1] This is common practice for double-barrelled station names.
Each station identification sign on the outer side of the tracks says "Berryessa" in large type and "North San José" below in smaller type. [2]
The sign above the main entrance says "BERRYESSA" in large type and "NORTH SAN JOSE" below in smaller type.

Part of the confusion is that the official station name was adopted fairly late in the process, so even the main entrance signage didn't include the smaller "NORTH SAN JOSE" until recently (compare with March 2018) and some earlier terminus signs said only "Berryessa". [3] Another source of confusion is that, like the City of San José, BART is adhering to the typographical convention of omitting a diacritical mark from any capital letter, including when "San José" is printed in all caps. [4]

Fortunately, at least everyone's on the same page about it being spelled "Berryessa". Or is it Berreyesa?

– Minh Nguyễn ^💬 23:33, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 1 June 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: page moved by admin DragonflySixtyseven (talk · contribs) at 04:22, June 12, 2020‎ (UTC). Mz7 (talk) 04:38, 12 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Berryessa/North San Jose station → Berryessa/North San José station per below consensus. Jasper Deng (talk) 23:13, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In response to #Official station name:

@Mxn: I'd use the accent as in the official name. Officially, San Jose, California is spelled with the diacritics but COMMONNAME dictates we don't use it. For the station, let us use the official spelling with the accent until enough sources arise to establish a COMMONNAME. On opening day, I plan to also see how it is spelled on train destination signs, with the caveat that I think those signs are too ancient and/or do not have enough resolution (DPI) to correctly display the accent, particularly for the small indications used to show the next train's time rather than the large one used when a train with that destination is arriving.--Jasper Deng (talk) 23:41, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Jasper Deng: I think the Daktronics overhead displays are programmed to always show destinations in all caps, which makes it unlikely that they'll add the accent mark even on the newer displays that have the resolution for it. But there's a chance the non-electronic, white-on-black destination signs or the 511-branded departure screens might show the full name with the accent mark, since they're all set in title case. – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 05:14, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging @Pi.1415926535: who I think would like to have a word on this too.--Jasper Deng (talk) 07:32, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a particularly strong opinion yet, but leaning in favor of the double barrel (despite how much I hate the ridiculously long station names) and accent. Probably the best is to see what comes out over the next two weeks, particularly from BART. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 08:31, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I support use of the accent mark, especially as commonname has yet to be established. Cristiano Tomás (talk) 22:43, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Making this a full-fleged requested move as clear consensus has developed in favor of the accent.--Jasper Deng (talk) 23:13, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. WP:COMMONAME can still be established by recent news articles and media within the past year on the construction and preparation of said station.[5][6][7][8] Just because it has not opened yet does not necessarily mean a common name has not been established by reliable sources. And many of these sources still do not use the accent mark.[9] So unless these same sources start using the accent after it opens, I do not support adding it here. Zzyzx11 (talk) 01:41, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- @Zzyx11: And that seems likely to change once the new map and signage come into play. There will be substantial media coverage that day as well for sure.--Jasper Deng (talk) 03:05, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yes, so there is no reason to move the page now until we get closer to June 13 and find out whether sfgate.com, NBC Bay Area and the others I previously cited start using the accent (which I highly doubt seeing how Bay Area media like the The Mercury News treat San Jose State University without the accent for example[10]), still use "Berryessa/North San Jose" without the accent, use the shorten "Berryessa", or start to prefer VTA's "Berryessa Transit Center". Until then, this is premature. Zzyzx11 (talk) 04:40, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Aside from news sources, we'll want to keep an eye on other published media, such as guidebooks and maps, for WP:WIAN. I wouldn't be surprised if the accent mark takes hold among these media before print and TV news outlets. – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 10:02, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I think the accent mark would be more accurate, though I'm not in a particular hurry to rename the article. (It's been years of delays; what's a couple extra weeks, right?) My comments above were in response to recent edits that removed every occurrence of the accent mark throughout the article, which I felt was an overcorrection even considering WP:COMMONNAME. I would encourage editors to avoid information loss in any quest for consistency. There's no prohibition against mentioning official or stylized names in article leads. BART even considered the inclusion of accent marks on its map to be notable enough to comment on it publicly. The worst that could happen with the status quo is that a reader perceives the article to be a bit inconsistent or sloppy, but at least they'll come away aware of the two spellings in use. – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 09:23, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes restore the accent, which is plenty common, more correct, and helpful to the reader. Dicklyon (talk) 17:33, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support accent, per reasons stated before and by other users above. Cristiano Tomás (talk) 03:55, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support, because it's almost certain that the official spelling will get used more and more based on the recent official documentation.—Naddruf (talk ~ contribs) 02:22, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support: it's very clear that the accent is official, and it is consistently used by BART. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 02:32, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support, common sense move. Cards84664 00:51, 9 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

FYI, I've proposed renaming Downtown San Jose station to Downtown San José station for consistency with this article's title. – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 18:21, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]