Jump to content

Talk:Atari 8-bit computers/Archive 3

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3Archive 4

Edit warring

Ok, I'm not fully aware of the details that led to this—the posts are a rather lengthy and go off on tangents at times—but I feel that the discussion has progressed to a point that it has become unproductive. If things continue like this, I suggest the involved parties let this sit for a week before continuing.

Waskoma- You are entitled to have your opinion about Collins' newsletter feature. However, that does not change the fact that it is a reliable, third-party, published source describing this article's topic. Wikipedia:Verifiability allows editors to add content based on the source to this article. Collins' source is an comparison of the different aspects of computers. I'd call that an analysis, and I think most would too. The source may not provide or be as exhaustive of an analysis as you'd like, but mentioning "analysis" is well within Wikipedia's policies.

Badger Drink- I understand that this situation might be frustrating, but please do not bite the newcomers. I'm sure Waskoma is well meaning and wants the article to be accurate and of high quality. Wikipedia has numerous policies and guidelines, many of which can be complicated to interpret even for experienced editors. Keep your cool and stay focused on a common goal.

The one policy which hasn't really been touched on is Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Rather than argue about a single source, I suggest more sources be sought out to balance the statement. I'm sure others have done similar comparisons about the different computers. Those sources can be used to either support Collins' view point or provide an alternative view point. That will ensure the article content is as neutral as possible.

That being said, I suggest both sides of the argument dig up more sources. Post them back here to we'll determine which satisfy Wikipedia:Reliable sources, and we'll integrate the content into the article as necessary. Sound reasonable? (Guyinblack25 talk 15:11, 30 October 2009 (UTC))

You're welcome to do whatever you wish, but I'm not going on a tedious scavenger hunt to appease Randy in Hungary here. Sorry. Badger Drink (talk) 17:18, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Badger- That's your call and are welcome to not do anything. However, if that's how you feel, I suggest you disengage from the the above discussion. Waskoma and you were only antagonizing each other by going in circles, which doesn't benefit anything. (Guyinblack25 talk 19:24, 30 October 2009 (UTC))
What an absolutely nonsensical position to take. If you don't feel the project is benefitted by keeping it free of misinformation and contributions from people fundamentally unable to comprehend the given sources, then I don't know what to say to you. It's a shame that we can't be touchy-feely ultra-compassionate - really, it is - but at the end of the day, this is an encyclopedia, not a social hall. Waskoma is only antagonizing himself by insisting on getting involved with a task he is unsuited for - just as I would blame myself if I went on the Hungarian Wikipedia and got into an edit-war over sources I could barely comprehend. Badger Drink (talk) 20:10, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Badger- Perhaps some further explanation is needed. That was not request to let Waskoma edit and act without restraint. If Waskoma does not listen to reason and edits disruptively, then appropriate action should be taken. Talk page warnings, admin intervention, and blocks are all part of the process meant to deal with situations like this.
Whatever the outcome with Waskoma, I suggest you disengage for bit as some of your comments (even the ones towards me) can easily been seen as uncivil. It's very clear you want what is best for the article and Wikipedia. My suggestions are meant for the involved parties to avoid admin actions against them. I've seen several cases where both involved parties get reprimanded for continued antagonistic editing, even when one was acting in good faith. (Guyinblack25 talk 21:23, 30 October 2009 (UTC))
Thanks for the very helpful wikilink to WP:CIVIL. I had no clue what the word "uncivil" meant, it's very helpful of you to provide that link. Badger Drink (talk) 03:42, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Badger- I was quite certain you knew what the word "uncivil" meant. I linked the policy page to show examples of what Wikipedia considers incivility to be. If you took offense to that, I apologize.
Regardless, that is no reason to be rude. Marty felt another point of view would help resolve this dispute. After reading this talk page and seeing the edit history, I agree. Let's stay on point and discuss the issue relevant to the edit war so we can reach a solution. (Guyinblack25 talk 17:02, 31 October 2009 (UTC))

There are no other papers on this so this direction wont help sadly. But I found something interesting: Collins says: Rather than attempt a complete review of all the machines available at the time, I'll concentrate on what I know best Thus adding words into his mouth that according to his analysys Atari is the best of any 8 computers of their time is simply wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.0.151.27 (talk) 21:04, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I assume this IP address (84.0.151.27) is Waskoma. If not then please let me know.
I'm sorry, but I find that hard to believe. Surely someone else has done some analysis of topic. I suggest doing search of Google Books and the various sources listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Sources#List. Arguing semantics of a single source will not reach a resolution for this article or any article on Wikipedia.
The source is fine how they've used it, and your arguments do not discredit the source. If you believe contrary to Collins' analysis, then you should present sources to support that view point. (Guyinblack25 talk 21:23, 30 October 2009 (UTC))
Yes it was me. Thanks for the tips, I have found a very early review of the c64: http://www.atarimagazines.com/creative/v9n1/21_A_best_buy_for_83_Commo.php The graphics capabilities of the 64 are exciting. Commodore-64 graphics are more powerful than those of the Atari, IBM PC, Apple, TI 99 4A, or Radio Shack Color Computer. (The 64 also has far stronger graphics than its cheaper cousin, the Vic-20.) whats your next suggestion? Also dont forget that Collins says he's reviewing only the computers he knows best: c64, spectrum, atari. and sp he does. so basically he's saying atari is the best out of atari & c64 & spectrum and not out of ANY 8 bit home computers. cheers, --Waskoma (talk) 22:19, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
No he states rather than review all the systems (as in write reviews for every system analyzed in the limited space) he'd stick to three of the reviews i.e. summaries. It once again in no way states a limited analysis on his part, as you're suggesting. Once again, there's this context issue. Additionally, the reference you provided goes against your own qualification claims about Collins' article - it provides a one liner about the author's opinion against a listing of computers but no explination or comparison on why. Likewise, the entire article is a review on the Commodore 64 not a general comparative of 8-bit computers. Interestingly, as you left out, the author also goes on to talk about the video problems: "In my opinion, the quality of the video image produced by the 64 is poor. So far, I have seen the displays of six 64 computers, and have yet to find one that is as crisp and shart as the Atari 800 or 400 models, for example." As was stated, a comparative analysis of 8-bit computers is what's needed and being requested. Here is an example of an article from the time period in question. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 22:26, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Second: http://gamesmuseum.pixesthesia.com/texts/compbest.txt According to Mark Turmell, author of Fast Eddie, Sneakers and Turmoil, "The Commodore 64 has the potential to display the most arcade-like games. It's leaps and bounds ahead of the Atari 800. The music and sound are incredible."--Waskoma (talk) 07:47, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
"As was stated, a comparative analysis of 8-bit computers is what's needed and being requested." Can you bring some proof & quote from Collins where he comparatively analyses bitmap /character /sprite graphics, nr of displayable colors, resolutions, screen sizes? What's there is an incomplete & incorrect listing of features: Collins' article has _no_ information on Atari's character & bitmap modes! How on earth anyone may think a comparative analysis could have taken place is above me. We get no mention of Atari's multicolor sprites either, he falsely claim's that c64's all multicolor modes works as its multicolor character mode. On how many colors Atari could display in its various modes this is all we get: Depending on the mode, a number of colors could be displayed. Conclusion: we either agree that a comparative analysis is needed & then based on WP:OR reject both the pro & con artciles, or we accept both.--80.154.98.131 (talk) 12:03, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
We keep going around in circles on this because it seems you just don't get what's being stated here and refuse to follow what's being requested. A) You were told already, continuing to try and argue about Collins not being an analysis is not discrediting the source for it's current use. Just because it does not present things in it's analysis you'd like to see does not discount it. As Guyinblack already stated, "The source may not provide or be as exhaustive of an analysis as you'd like, but mentioning "analysis" is well within Wikipedia's policies." Likewise with your claimed inaccuracies, which so far have always been proven to be simply you lacking understanding of the context of what's being talked about or stated. Continuing to try and filibuster on the Collins article is simply weakening any credit you may think you have here. Move on, it's off the table. B) That is not what WP:OR is about, once again you're trying to take a policy and missuse it. WP:OR has to do with people's own writing on here (such as your own), trying to draw unupported, unreferenced conclusions based on personal opinion and lack of supportive references. It is not used for review of references. Notability and reliability is, and we've already established for you that Collins and SIGGRAPH are considered as such here. Again, move on. C)The C64 article is simply that - a review of the C64. It does not try and present itself as a compartive analysis article in it's intent, presentation, or conclusions - because it's not! It does not in any way, shape, or form satisfy what you've been asked to try and find. And then using it to further argue against the Collins article given points a and b is again wasted effort. D) Judging by your recent edit attempt to try and promote the C64 over the Atari 8-bits (and in a very non-neutral maner), and your editing history (this article and your reverts and edits on it being 99.9% of your contrbutions here), it appears you have a very specific agenda here. Such agendas lack the good faith editing we normally attribute to new editors, and will once again paint you as a disruptive editor. So can dictating how you think Wikipedia is supposed to work, against editors who have been involved in it's process on a constructive level far longer than you. I asked guyinblack to come here and moderate because he is a very neutral party and one of the most experienced people here in taking articles to Good Article and Featured Article status, which is the actual goal of Wikipedia articles. As such, his ability to rationalize content, evaluate references, and follow established interpertations of policy is more than established and recognized. But why do I feel all of this will just be wasted and you'll just keep doing what you want how you want when you want? It's getting to the point of having an admin get involved and bring the hammer down on the decision as the final solution. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 16:45, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Waskoma- A few things.
  • Thank you for finding some sources. However, please keep them on this talk page until the matter is settled. Such continued edits can easily be interpreted as disruptive, which would led to your account being temporarily blocked.
  • I agree with Marty that you're incorrectly citing WP:OR, as original research is adding content without a source. If we had an editor here adding the "Atari 800 had the best graphics" without a source, then that would be their own personal opinion and be considered original research. That is not what's happening here.
  • I believe you're correctly citing WP:NPOV. Statements such as "the best [INSERT TOPIC]" are difficult to verify. Given the sporadic releases of the competing computers, it is hard to nail down relevant time frames to properly compare systems. That being said, I doubt any comparison could adequately meet Wikipedia's standards for neutrality. That being said, statements about the quality of should be given proper context and weight to ensure neutrality.
  • Trying to discredit Collins' analysis does not really serve your end goal. For reasons described in above threads, Collins' meets WP:RS the most out of all the sources presented. To discredit it would indirectly discredit the other sources you presented.
To All- In light of all this, I suggest creating a "Reception" section. Other hardware articles that are Featured articles like PlayStation 3 and Wii have similar sections. This will allow the content from sources to remain in the article and should provide a better context for their statements (attributing the author). Proper weight should be determined byt the recurrence of similar statements. If most people praise the graphics and negative comments are in the minority, then the article should reflect that and vice versa. Content in the "Design" section should stick to describing the topic's design. A comparison to other systems is not necessary to convey this system's design to a layman. Any thoughts? (Guyinblack25 talk 17:02, 31 October 2009 (UTC))
The reception section sounds like a very good idea, and I did find a lot of sources from the time reviewing them as the platform that should be purchased if you're interested in games, praising graphics, sound, picture quality, etc. So what are you stating should be done with the Collins analysis under the suggested scheme? It should be move to more of a "quality of" context? --Marty Goldberg (talk) 17:27, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
I think that's for the best. Despite Waskoma's discussion methods, they brought up a valid point of neutrality. Collins' source can be used for specific details about the 800's design like the CPU type and amount of RAM/ROM. But anything about comparisons and analysis (from Collins or anybody else) should go in reception. (Guyinblack25 talk 17:36, 31 October 2009 (UTC))
That's what I'm asking though, how would you see the current analysis statement fitting in the Reception area? --Marty Goldberg (talk) 17:49, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Marty, A) Its not about discrediting, it's about calling the article an analysis is imho misleading. Collins does not do a comparative analysis as this wording implies. (hence, he does not even describe Atari's graphic modes) So I'd like to change the word analysis here to article/review. Guidelines generally suggests to avoid drumming up facts/opinions etc. B) I see. WP:OR only applies to the article section. Point taken. C) It's not about promoting the c64, it was simply easier to find sources comparing the atari with the c64, than some more rare machine. I tried to look even for the CPC. Also Guyinblack25 suggested to find such sources to balance the statement, so I just did that. What will we do with them? Finaly, your answer coud have been much shorter if you omit all your personal notices.
Guyinblack25, you said That being said, statements about the quality of should be given proper context and weight to ensure neutrality. this meets exactly my struggle to get the word "analysis" out of here. see above.--Waskoma (talk) 18:33, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
Marty- I think how it's in the article now is pretty good. I'd tweak the attribution though. "In an analysis of 8-bit computers in the 1980s, Dr. Steven Collins stated that the system's custom graphics chips give it the most powerful graphics of any 8 bit computers of the Atari machine's time." Since it's a "Reception" section, you can go into even more depth too, for Collins' article and any other reliable source.
Waskoma- I'm sorry, but I disagree with your assertions about the use of "analysis" here. I think it's a suitable word to describe the article. However, I feel it's fair to say that other descriptions could get the job done too. If you can come up with an equivalent wording, I see no reason to stick with "analysis" So long as the wording is accurate, it's all personal preference at that point. (Guyinblack25 talk 03:48, 1 November 2009 (UTC))

I propose the use of the words 'article' or 'review' instead of 'analysis'. Just like the text refers to itself: "This article will explore...", "Rather than attempt a complete review","will also have a brief look", "I'll outline the architecture". The wording "according to an analysis", "custom chips give it", IMHO breaches this verifiability guideline: "Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article" Hence, if an analysis wasnt done, and the article doesnt refers to itself & the process it goes trough, as an analysis, then the WP article referring to it should keep to that. The current wording implies, that Collins has made analytic comparisons of the systems, but the article presents no information of Atari's text/bitmap modes, or nr of colors possible in them, thus an analysis and conclusion that it is the most powerful graphically based on the information presented in the article by scientific means is impossible and in fact not present. Another guideline from the NPOV page: "When we discuss an opinion, we attribute the opinion to _someone_ and discuss the fact that they have this opinion.". Opposing to this what happens here is that you attribute the opinion to the analysis ("according to an analysis") and not to Collins. My references shows there are different views on the matter by seasoned programmers thus there's a dispute and this is a matter of opinion. What happens here is the painting of Collins' opinion to a fact by attributing it to a nonexisting analysis, instead of following NPOV and attributing it correctly to him. So, here's my version of how the sentence should be: "According to Steven Collins, Atari had the most powerful graphics system of the time". --Waskoma (talk) 09:41, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

And around in circles we go. 98% of what you just repeated again has no bearing. As you've been told over and over again by *everyone*, whether or not it includes info you'd specifically want to see does not disqualify it from being an "analysis", nor does it disqualify it from being verifiable (which once again you're misussing a guideline), nor do your requotes of NPOV have anything to do with a non-attribution - the current wording was specifically crafted in response to NPOV and attribution as clearly laid out in the previous lengthy discussions, nor does your wording present an "alternative to the word analysis" as was requested you attempt - it's the same wording you've been pushing for since you began the latest reverting war that titled this section! To spell it out again as to what was being requested: As was requested, an alternative to the word "analysis" - something that conveys the same message but is a different word - would be any one of the many synonmous words avaialable: breakdown, dissection, dissolution, division, inquiry, investigation, partition, reasoning, resolution, scrutiny, search, separation, study, subdivision, etc. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 16:37, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Collins calls the text himself an article and what he is doing: a review,a brief look, outlining, etcm but never an analysis. Based on this I guess it should be you convincing me why shouldn't we use the words he is using to describe his own text. Instead of forcing me to look for synonyms maybe you should look for synonyms of article,review, and so on. Let's play with open cards: I think you are trying to present his opinion as a fact - as a result of an analysis - "Proof by deduction from known truths"- as most of us understands it. According to Collins, and not according to a conclusion of his analysis -as the wording implies-, IS the Atari the most powerful graphically. As you probably think, I do strongly disagree with the statement. Just like my references show others would. These are my cards. Its your turn to explain me why do you think it is important to claim it is an analys, and attribute the claim to the analysis, and not directly to Collins. --Waskoma (talk) 19:22, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
Waskoma, we've explained over and over why the current wording was chosen and why consensus was given towards it, why the article is considered valid and reliable, etc. There's an entire page here on it. Arguing that because the word "article" is used to describe the medium of presentation of the content is once again a demonstration of lack of understanding of context - something you've been playing games with the entire time. It is no more demonstrative of content type than stating "This speech", "This paper", "This whatever..". One has nothing to do with the other. Nor does he call it a review, rather he states "rather than attempt a complete review" as in rather than elaborate and provide summaries for every single computer in his analysis. Again, a complete warping of context, which at this point is looking more like it's being done on purpose. Nobody is presenting this as anything other than an attribution to Collins - that's why the wording was changed to it's current format via an entire page of dialogue above. Whether or not you agree with it or suddenly demand policy work in reverse and suddenly it's our job to repeat ourselves rather than yours to change consensus, is irrelevant. This is not Waskoma's Wikipedia. Likewise, nobody "forced" you to look up anything, you were given the opportunity out of courtesy to provide an alternative wording to convey Collins' analysis, in an effort to promote good faith editing participation. Instead, you wasted it on once again trying to discredit the already established reliable source, rehashing the same material over and over. You have failed to change consensus on what the content is about. That is a fact. No matter how many discussion "tricks" you try and employ to try and swing the current topic back in to you're continued attempt to discredit the article. Time for you to move on as the rest of us have, rather than continuing to attempt to clutter this page with the same rheotic and arguments in an attempt to stonewall. Otherwise, once again you keep pushing towards disruptive editor status. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 20:53, 1 November 2009 (UTC)e f
I have asked why it is important to use the word analysis - you have failed to give an explanation. Previously you have demanded that my sources of opposing views should contain comparative analisys just like the Collins article does (according to you)- and then failed to proove the Collins article reaches the statement based on one. No suprise here though, for the dozenth time: it doesnt even describes Atari's screen modes or nr of colors possible. Your actions make me more and more condifent that 1. you are an Atari fanboy and 2. with the current wording you want to mislead the readers so they'll think Collins have gone trough a scientific process - an analysis - to reach the disputed statement - which he havent done and you have continually failed to proove otherwise (you havent even tried). So, to avoid misleading the reader I'll change the text to Article, hence Collins calls the text an Article himself and as WP:OR is strictly forbidden, and other guidelines say the information should directly supported by the sources - in this case the information being Collins' text is an article or analysis - the source supports here "Article". Period. --Waskoma (talk) 17:00, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I was asked to come by and comment on this discussion, so here goes:

Waskoma: The use of the word "analysis" is appropriate in cases where the person has written an in-depth technical essay on the subject in question - in this case, the various computers of that period. I personally don't see how you can read through an article that goes into detail on technical aspects of the machine and not call it an analysis, except insofar as you disagree with its findings. The article was written by a member of SIGGRAPH, a respected and widely acknowledged authority on the state of the art in computer graphics research and development. Calling it an "analysis" and using it as a reliable reference is completely appropriate, in my opinion.

Also, you should be aware that regardless of your personal viewpoints, and regardless of how you feel a Wikipedia article should read, ALL editors are expected to follow the rules here. WP:BRD allows you to make a bold edit, but if you are reverted, you are then expected to discuss the issue. I see that you did make an attempt to discuss the issue here, but all that's come of it so far is that you've basically ended up in a shouting match with several other editors, and I'm afraid the sources are on the side of the current consensus. If you have another reliable source that contradicts the SIGGRAPH article's claims about the Atari 800's capabilities and stance in the market, you can add it as an opposing viewpoint in order to satisfy Wikipedia's guidelines on giving equal weight to all valid viewpoints.

Finally, Wikipedia works by consensus, and the burden is on you if you wish to change it. You are certainly welcome to challenge consensus, but edit warring, doing the text equivalent of screaming and shouting at everyone, calling them all wrong, and otherwise insisting you get your way are not the way to go about it. Instead, if you feel that Collins's article is wrong or misleading, then show us why it's misleading with verifiable facts, other articles and analyses that prove that it's wrong. Otherwise, in this case, you're asking us to take your word over that of a well-known expert in the field, and that's just not going to fly.

Are you willing to work constructively with us on this?

Marty: This argument is getting out of hand, and I'm afraid you're probably a little too close to it right now. I think you need to step back and cool down a bit. I agree with your assessment, and I'll try to see if there's a middle ground that will satisfy all parties in this dispute. But you and Waskoma are both perilously close to 3RR. I'll respond to you privately about my other concerns on this.

Badger Drink: As requested above, please don't bite the newcomers. It's never a good idea to tell someone they're wrong in the manner you have several times, and insulting their use or knowledge of the English language is a personal attack and can get you blocked. Keep your cool and back off if you find yourself wanting to insult someone - remember, attack the content, not the editor.

I hope this helps. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 00:47, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break

KieferSkunk: I wonder if you've read much of my comments so far and the article, because of your comment that you dont understand why I insist its not an analysis. If you havent, please do so now, as I have explained it dozens of times in various ways, see above. Secondly, I have already looked up different sources, but nobody said they're ok or not, and when I've added them to the article it got simply reverted. here they are, and a new one:
http://gamesmuseum.pixesthesia.com/texts/compbest.txt
According to Mark Turmell, author of Fast Eddie, Sneakers and Turmoil, "The Commodore 64 has the potential to display the most arcade-like games. It's leaps and bounds ahead of the Atari 800. The music and sound are incredible."
http://www.atarimagazines.com/creative/v9n1/21_A_best_buy_for_83_Commo.php
"The graphics capabilities of the 64 are exciting. Commodore-64 graphics are more powerful than those of the Atari, IBM PC, Apple, TI 99 4A, or Radio Shack Color Computer. (The 64 also has far stronger graphics than its cheaper cousin, the Vic-20.)"
http://www.armory.com/~spectre/tech.html
this is what I'd call an analysis:
"While the ANTIC has many, many more colours than the VIC-II's sixteen colour palette, the ANTIC modes are extremely limited on how many you can have on screen at once. At the highest resolution possible on the ANTIC (320x192) which is still smaller than Commodore standard hi-res (320x200), you get two colours only (one hue with two luminances according to my technical documentation), while the Commodore can still display all sixteen. Possibly a fairer comparison is Commodore multicolour (160x200) versus GRAPHICS 15 (160x192) but the ANTIC can still only keep four colours on the screen. In fact, to get sixteen colours from ANTIC onscreen requires you drop all the way to GRAPHICS 11 and 80x192; while the VIC-II does have an 8x8 colour limitation (2 colours per 8x8 cell at 320x200, 4 colours per cell at 160x200 -- but all cell colours are largely independent except for the background in 160x200, so there are no palette registers per se), all sixteen colours available to it can still be displayed simultaneously on screen in any graphics mode the chip can generate. Furthermore, interlaced graphics modes are possible on the VIC-II that completely do away with that 8x8 cell restriction and expand the palette to over 128 colours with some added CPU work.
In addition, player/missile graphics, while certainly powerful, lack the flexibility of VIC-II sprites. There are only five players (vs. eight VIC-II sprites) and to get the missiles, you lose one player. Players can be 128 or 256 scanlines tall, which is definitely an improvement on the VIC-II (max size 21 scanlines or 42 in double-Y mode), but only eight wide (VIC: 24 pixels wide or 48 in double-X). The collision detection systems are roughly on par between the two systems, but Commodore sprites can also be hardware-resized (1x or 2x in X, Y or both), have flexible object priority (sprites can dynamically go behind or in front of the background independent of others), and can be either monochrome or be painted in three colours with a 2:1 reduction in horizontal resolution. And again, raster work is possible that can give you eight new sprites on every subsequent scan line -- potentially over 1600 in total, although they would be only one scan line tall, but 32-sprite effects are quite common and easy to manage with very little performance loss..."
"... With this all in mind, the VIC-II is by no means the winner by a mile, but I think it is the more powerful graphics chip feature vs. feature. The ANTIC is a very powerful chip as well -- make no mistake -- but the VIC-II does almost all of its features and with greater flexibility in general besides."
Unlike Mr. Phd Siggraph Respected and Verifiable Collins who doesnt even tells us about Atari's graphic modes this one explains how do c64 and Atari graphic modes and sprites, nr of colors possible in them, and other features directly compare. Marty demanded that I should bring such a source, so here it is. And before I get accused again by promoting the c64: my search string was: 'most powerful "8 bit system"'.
So, can we conclude that there are various views on this matter, and to fulfill NPOV we should present the other side aswell?--Waskoma (talk) 12:13, 3 November 2009 (UTC)


By the way, Collins also writes : "A special mention must go to Andrew Braybrook who possibly is still the most famous of Commodore 64 programmers.". Now would it be valid at the Andrew Braybrook page to insert this text: "According to an analysis of Peter Collins, Andrew Braybrook is the most famous Commodore 64 programmer" ? No you say? why not? he made no analysis? well, where is the analysis in Atari's case when he havent even touched it's graphic modes & nr of colors possible in them ? What analysis says there, its any better than a ZX81 ? :) --Waskoma (talk) 12:28, 3 November 2009 (UTC)


Yes, I had read the entire article, though I concede that I had not read other articles that were not cited as references in this WP article. And it appears that your sources indeed contradict Collins as well, though the way the first one you pointed out is written, I would question its neutrality. But it does stand to reason that there is room for improvement in that section - the bar is verifiability, not truth. It may not be completely verifiable that the Atari series was the most powerful set of computers of its time (and to say such is an assertion of truth), but it IS at least verifiable that opinions differ, and that each platform had its own strengths and limitations.
I'll see what I can do to find a way to incorporate your sources in a way that satisfies everyone. Before you revert the article again, though, you should give people a chance to see if there's some middle ground between your version and the existing version. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 19:23, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
On further review of the discussion above, I do find myself agreeing with some of Waskoma's points. He is right to cite WP:NPOV in relation to the Collins article - we are currently only using that one article as the sole source of information for the claim that Atari computers were the most powerful of their time. I think the portions of the discussion that fixated on whether to call it an "analysis" or not were blown totally out of proportion - the exact terminology used is less important than the intent. But he is right that it's not necessarily providing a complete picture, the context of the article is somewhat difficult to discern without other complementary or competing articles, and we're really not making very much progress in this issue as a result. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 19:46, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm perfectly happy with the inclusion of the statement even without adding opposing views, as long as it is directly attributed to Collins, as it should be the case with opinions. I've found a 4th source: http://www.commodore.ca/gallery/magazines/c64_design/9.jpg "This machine has the best graphics-display capabilities of anything that has yet been done for a TV screen" (top left under the picture's text)
My main problem with that source (and the first one you listed further up) is that it's just a review of the C64, and frankly it's not much different than a review of, say, Pac-Man Championship Edition in terms of its scope. It would be a good item to put into a/the reception section for the C64 article, and/or a more general article about this generation of computers. But it doesn't seem like a good source for this article specifically, since it doesn't address the Atari series at all. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 20:29, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
Btw, you hit the nail on the head there: each platfrom had its own strengths and limitations. Exactly! For example Amstrad was the best at 160x200 resolution out of all, with 16 totally freely placable colors (vs 4 at atari) out of a bigger palette, but moving anything around in a pleasing speed for a game it had lacked the power. --Waskoma (talk) 20:12, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
Again, we need to make sure we keep the use of sources in scope. I understand your point about the strengths and weaknesses, but the section in question deals specifically with the design of the Atari computers and really should be limited to that. Discussion about the machines' strengths and weaknesses in relation to their competition should be reserved for the Reception section that Guyinblack proposed. In fact, the more I think about this, the more I think that we should do away with the Collins reference altogether in this section, and move it further down to Reception when that section is written. "Most powerful graphics of its time" is a difficult statement to prove or verify, but it's actually not even relevant to the section, which just discusses what capabilities the machines had to begin with. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 20:29, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Alternative wordings

I propose an alternate wording (paraphrase/prototype): "The custom chips in the Atari 8-bit computers enabled them to perform many graphics functions in hardware that often required programming tricks in other computers of the time. These enhanced capabilities made the Atari series highly competitive in the marketplace, according to Steven Collins of ACM SIGGRAPH.(cite Collins) However, the hardware also had limitations that some of its competitors did not, leading some reviewers to claim that the Commodore 64 was a more powerful machine overall.(cite C64-related articles)"

This wording is by no means final, but I do hope it'll lend a more balanced view to the issue. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 19:46, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

how about this? "Due to the many display modes,the display list, exhaustive support for scrolling and configurable screen layout the graphics chips in the Atari 8-bit computers gave high flexibility and enabled them to perform many graphics functions in hardware that had to be done in software in other computers of the time. These enhanced capabilities made the Atari series the most powerful graphically in its class, according to Steven Collins of ACM SIGGRAPH.(cite Collins)" --Waskoma (talk) 20:12, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
Too lengthy, I think. We don't need an exhaustive list of capabilities in this paragraph, especially since some of them are described in more detail further down. Also, at this point, I'm not convinced that this section should be a qualitative statement about the machine's power in comparison to other machines at all. I think instead, we should focus on what the new hardware sought to improve (namely, that you could now do stuff in hardware that previously required software to do).
Let's try this: Remove the entire second paragraph and add the following to the first paragraph, either at the end or somewhere in the middle: "These features enable the computer to perform many functions directly in hardware, such as smooth background scrolling, that would need to be done in software in most other computers of the time." This isn't much different than what you'd written, but it no longer makes a claim that this necessarily made the computer any more powerful than other computers - just that it provided a technical advantage. That statement is more easily backed up by multiple sources and avoids NPOV issues. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 20:45, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
I agree that Collins' or any other person's commentary about the system's performance (comparative or not) should be excluded from the "Design" section. The "Reception" section is the best place for that. Kiefer's draft of the design content seems suitable to me. (Guyinblack25 talk 16:18, 4 November 2009 (UTC))
All fine with me until Collins' opinion wont be presented as a fact. Which have happened and is the reason for this talk page to grow this huge. See: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/NPOV By value or opinion,[2] on the other hand, we mean "a matter which is subject to dispute." ... When we discuss an opinion, we attribute the opinion to someone and discuss the fact that they have this opinion.--Waskoma (talk) 11:59, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
I believe the assertion was that the article represented fact in concrete terms, so that it wasn't just an opinion, but an interpretation of fact. However, the verifiability of the claim (that the Atari graphics system was the most powerful of its time) has been called into question, such that the source makes more sense to use in the Reception section. And when we do use it there, we will ensure that it's represented as a review, following the guidelines for such.
So you and I are on the same page now. Are you okay with that? — KieferSkunk (talk) — 21:00, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
Yeps, I'm with you :) --Waskoma (talk) 09:27, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

This is a cool article

Great job all you people who wrote this article! I used to have an Atari 800 eons ago, and wrote market research programs in Atari BASIC, as well as played great intergalactical games. What a great computer! My hats off to all of you excellent people who wrote this excellent article!--Tomwsulcer (talk) 13:25, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Please read WP:NOTFORUM which states "bear in mind that talk pages exist for the purpose of discussing how to improve articles" and "Wikipedians who wish to hold casual discussions with fellow Wikipedians can use the IRC channels, such as #wikipedia".
What you posted is forum material and not accepted on talk pages. With your Wikipedia experience, you should know that. -- Lyverbe (talk) 23:13, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I know that technically you're right, but the rule isn't a hard-and-fast rule, but could be tempered with judgment perhaps? And I think there's a higher purpose here. Perhaps you've seen articles in WSJ and NY Times about declining Wikipedia volunteering? More editors are "logging off" than joining to contribute. And one way to keep people working is to offer positive feedback, praise, which is what I've done mostly here. This isn't a "forum" where I'm discussing something totally irrelevant; rather, I'm saying this is a great article and I liked it and thank you. These kind of comments motivate people to contribute more so I think they're especially apropos. That is, I think the purpose of motivating contributors outweighs the "stick to how to improve the article" stuff and is consistent with Wikipedia's "break all rules". --Tomwsulcer (talk) 23:26, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Proposed split at Atari BASIC

I'm proposing, at Atari BASIC, to split to a new article Atari 8-bit operating system, since a good half of the article covers (if briefly) the CIO and graphcis subsystems of the OS at a fairly "overview" level, and I can see myself adding others on e.g. the floating point implementation. I realise this has been proposed before (to split stuff out of this main article) but that was before this was all added to the Atari BASIC article. It would probably entail a move of a few bits from this article too if that made sense, and also perhaps afterwards a proposed merger of Turbo BASIC XL and Atari BASIC and other BASICs etc if it made sense (though I've no strong view on that, especially not right now). I should appreciate your views at Talk:Atari BASIC. Si Trew (talk) 10:49, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Simon I respect your commitment to these articles and I trust your judgment to know what is best.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 17:16, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. I think the best thing, first, is to copy the graphics discussion out of both this article and Atari BASIC and make a new article, Atari 8-bit graphics, and try to add sources etc etc to that. It can sit in my sandbox while I'm doing it. Once people are happy with it, the relevant sections can then be removed, or vastly condensed, in these articles and redirected to those with {{main}}. Because of the necessary interaction between the OS and the hardware it may not be appropriate to have this as a stand-alone article (i.e. kinda a "vertical" split down the architecture instead of a "horizontal" one), but we can decide that once we have that, whether to then merge the CIO in (and I guess POKEY later) and move it to Atari 8-bit operating system or "operating system and hardware" or whatever is the best nomenclature. Si Trew (talk) 07:59, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Simon I was wondering if you still had your Atari, and does it still work? I have no idea what happened to my Atari 800 which I had in graduate school. Wondering if there's a place where Ataris still run, where they can be used, and if so, should this be mentioned in the article? Also, somewhat off the track, if editors want some FUN, check out my article Presidential prevarications before it gets deleted -- it's up for deletion and will probably get axed -- but for fun, go to the article and click on links for presidents fibbing and watch with a bowl of crackers. One of Wikipedia's greatest joys! My favorite is: Clinton!!!--Tomwsulcer (talk) 17:08, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Are there any sprites?

The article on Atari BASIC includes a comment that, if I interpreted it correctly, implies the Atari had sprites (because it mentions the lack of Atari BASIC having any commands for manipulating sprites) but then, when I come to this article, the slightest I get to sprites appears to be a discussion of the ANTIC chip. (Heck, if you can control every raster individually, what do you need sprites for?) I have never had an Atari 800, nor any 8 bit Atari, for that matter. One of these two articles should be fixed so that total strangers to the Atari don't suddenly jump to the conclusion that there are or aren't sprites. And if there are sprites on an Atari 800, where do you find them? Dexter Nextnumber (talk) 07:32, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

The Atari 8 bit systems had sprites, but these were referred to as "players" and "missiles" and collectively the system was called "player-missile graphics". See also Sprite (computer graphics) and other articles listed in this search.--LarryMac | Talk 15:10, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
To answer the "why" part: the machine was originally intended to be a games machine, an updated version of their original 2600. That machine had no raster graphics. Instead, it had several sprites, and then a single background color register. The programmer rapidly changed the register and sprite information as the screen was drawn in order to produce a complete image (it was not easy!) When the new machines were being designed they worked along the same principle, and the raster/character graphics were not added until later. So that's one "why".
The other "why" is that it was expensive to draw and redraw graphics on any of these machines, as memory access was quite slow. In order to simulate sprites by direct drawing into the bitmaps could be complex and would eat performance. By having a small number of objects isolated in memory and combined only on the screen by the video hardware, movement could be handled without with some timers and without any redrawing. This was both faster, and generally easier. Note that the C64 had the same setup, for the same reasons. However, some systems did use redrawing for sprites, notably the Astrocade which had a clever solution to improve performance. Maury Markowitz (talk) 00:20, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Talk:Atari_8-bit_computers/Archive_3&oldid=1268207312"