Talk:Aphrodite

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Aphrodite/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Iazyges (talk · contribs) 18:33, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Will start soon. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 18:33, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Criteria

GA Criteria
GA Criteria: 1 1.a Y 1.b Y 2 2.a Y 2.b Y 2.c Y 2.d Y (Highest is 13%, due mostly to incidental similarities between phrases and clauses. 3 3.a Y 3.b Y 4 4.a Y 5 5.a Y 6 6.a Y (See below) 6.b Y

• No DAB links Y (2 exist, but both are intentional)
• No Dead links Y

*Images appropriately licensed N.

• File:Anquises y Afrodita - Afrodisias.jpg requires you to add "Carlos Delgado; CC-BY-SA" to the caption.

  I have modified the tags of File:Ares e Afrodite.JPG, File:Judgement Paris Antioch Louvre Ma3443.jpg, File:Pygmalion (Raoux).jpg, File:Genrich Ippolitovich Semiradsky - Roma, 1889.jpg, File:Aphrodite Anadyomene from Pompeii cropped.jpg, File:Aphrodite Heyl (2).jpg, File:Othea's Epistle (Queen's Manuscript) 07.jpg, File:TITIAN - Venus Anadyomene (National Galleries of Scotland, c. 1520. Oil on canvas, 75.8 x 57.6 cm).jpg, File:Tiziano - Venere di Urbino - Google Art Project.jpg, File:Angelo Bronzino - Venus, Cupid, Folly and Time - National Gallery, London.jpg, File:The Birth of Venus by William-Adolphe Bouguereau (1879).jpg, File:1848 Jean-Auguste-Dominique Ingres - Venus Anadyomène.jpg, File:Venus and Adonis. Francois Lemoyne.jpg, File:1863 Alexandre Cabanel - The Birth of Venus.jpg, File:Cornelis Holsteyn - Venus de dood van Adonis bewenend 1638-58.jpg, File:RokebyVenus.jpg, File:Peter Paul Rubens, The Death of Adonis, ca. 1614. The Israel Museum, Jerusalem.jpg, File:Peter Paul Rubens - The toilet of Venus.jpg, File:Venus, Adonis y Cupido (Carracci).jpg, File:Venus and Adonis by Titian.jpg. None of these edits were substantial, mostly I simply added "-1923" to the "PD-old-100".

I have added the words "Carlos Delgado; CC-BY-SA" to the caption as you have requested. --Katolophyromai (talk) 15:50, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

Prose Suggestions

• myrtle, roses, doves, sparrows, and swans. Is myrtle plural?
• an idea which is now generally seen as erroneous. suggest changing idea to theory.
• both of which claimed to be her place of birth. suggest due to the fact that both locations claimed to be the place of her birth.
• Early classical scholars attempted to argue that Aphrodite's name was of Greek does this mean early modern scholars who talk about the classical period, or scholars of the early classical time period? If the first, suggest
• Early scholars of classical mythology attempted to argue that Aphrodite's name was of Greek
• See also: Category:Epithets of Aphrodite Suggest you add |Epithets of Aphrodite]] to Category:Epithets of Aphrodite on the see also.

That does not work because it is part of a "See also" template and I do not know how to pipe a link in one of those; the usual method does not work. --Katolophyromai (talk) 15:48, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

• part of the Arrhephoria festival. suggest change to part of their Arrhephoria feast, as article indicates that it was best called a feast rather than a festival.

If you read the rest of the article, it later describes the Arrephoria as a "festival" and several my sources describe it as a "festival" also, if I remember correctly. The words "feast" and "festival" are sometimes used interchangeably. Besides, the Arrephoria definitely involved celebrations other than just feasting. --Katolophyromai (talk) 15:48, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

• Pseudo-Apollodorus later mentions "Metharme, daughter of Pygmalion, king of Cyprus". link Pseudo-Apollodorus.
• Consorts and children section suggest you add citations to all the people here.

I will take care of this last one later today when I have more time. --Katolophyromai (talk) 15:48, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

I have now taken care of this. --Katolophyromai (talk) 21:47, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

• which was probably originally part of a massive altar that was originally double usage of originally, suggest you switch the first originally to once.

I removed the redundant word. --Katolophyromai (talk) 19:01, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

• That is all my comments, happy to pass when they have been addressed. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 18:51, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

@Iazyges: I believe I have now fully addressed all of your criticisms that you have offered here. --Katolophyromai (talk) 21:48, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

NSFW Content

I have detected some NSFW content. Should I delete them, or leave it?

Lomrjyo (talk) 00:52, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

You are clearly new here. Per WP:UNCENSORED, the images can and should be kept. They are absolutely vital for a complete understanding of Aphrodite and to remove them would severely diminish the encyclopedic usefulness of the article. In any case, classical paintings and sculptures by renowned artists are hardly what a person would typically call pornography. In any case, the images used in this article are certainly nowhere close to being the most obscene images we have in our articles; the articles vulva and human penis both have up-close photographs of their respective genitalia used as their main images. --Katolophyromai (talk) 01:07, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Discrepancies (parentage and epithets)

I found a couple of discrepancies on Aphrodite's parentage and epithets.

1. Aphrodite was the daughter of Zeus and Dione according to Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 1.3.1). Homer (Iliad, book V, line 370) does not specifically mention Zeus as the father. The link should be corrected.

2. The article says that Aphrodite "was also known as Cytherea (Lady of Cythera) and Cypris (Lady of Cyprus)". I don't know where "Cypris" is coming from. I suspect it comes from Homer (Iliad, book V, line 330) which is where I see the first reference to Aphrodite with such name in the Iliad.

Hesiod (Theogony, lines 196-199) says that Gods and men call her Aphrodite (foam-arisen), Cytherea (“because she reached Cythera”) as well as Cyprogeneses (“because she was born in billowy Cyprus”). This source and the additional epithet should be added to the article.

ICE77 (talk) 21:14, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

@ICE77: Please read my response to your comment above. The Iliad does identify Zeus as Aphrodite's father in Book Twenty, line 105. The passage from Pseudo-Apollodorus that you keep referring to is relying on the Iliad. --Katolophyromai (talk) 21:28, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

1. In line with the comments I wrote above for the Parentage entry from MelancholyPanda, I guess we now have the missing line that state Zeus is the father of Aphrodite (not available until I pointed it out).

ICE77 (talk) 22:14, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Intro: un-cited statements contradicted by linked wikipedia entry

"She was also the patron goddess of prostitutes, an association which led early scholars to propose the concept of "sacred prostitution", an idea which is now generally seen as erroneous."

No source given, wikipedia article about "sacred prostitution" seems to indicate that scholars still agree that sacred prostitution was a real practice... does this sentence indicate that the link between the cult of Aphrodite and sacred prostitution was erroneous, or that the general historical practice of sacred prostitution did not exist? Also, citation needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.19.187.217 (talk) 17:09, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

@216.19.187.217: Per the usual interpretation of WP:CITELEAD implemented in recent Featured Articles, the lead is supposed to be an uncited summary of the rest of the article. All statements in the lead are supported by more in-depth passages in the body of the article itself, which are supported by reliable sources. The statement you are describing is, in fact, cited, but the citations are in the main paragraph about sacred prostitution, which is the last paragraph of the subsection "Classical period" under "Worship." The article about sacred prostitution is outdated and needs to be updated. A large number of popular sources still, unfortunately, lend credence to the sacred prostitution myth, but the only evidence to support it is a single, ambiguous skolion by Pindar, which most scholars now believe to have been egregiously misinterpreted. --Katolophyromai (talk) 19:59, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

There is only one sentence at sacred prostitution that's relevant both to Aphrodite and to Greece, but there is a bit more at prostitution in ancient Greece, where Pindar is cited and Strabo is quoted at length (see also the talk page). There is other evidence about ancient sacred prostitution generally, at various places from Mesopotamia in the east to Sicily in the west. I guess a question here at Aphrodite is whether the relevance to Aphrodite of apparent sacred prostitution at Corinth, given the limited evidence, is sufficient to justify mentioning sacred prostitution in the lead. On the other hand, there's lots of evidence for the other half of the lead sentence, that Aphrodite was a patron goddess for prostitutes. Andrew Dalby 10:08, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

It is a current attempt of certain Cypriot "historians" to change the status of their Goddess to one that conforms more to the current social "norms". Unfortunately for them, there are tens if not hundreds of peer-reviewed articles providing evidence for sexual prostitution as being part of Aphrodite worshiping; and there are none that provide evidence for the contrary. As a researcher on the cult of Aphrodite I could provide many citations but I see there are already many on this wikipedia page. Thus that sentence in the intro seems greatly out of place. I can't edit it out but I hope someone else does. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.207.112.64 (talk) 16:20, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

The additions on Aphrodite and Homosexuality

I'm concerned that some of the additions about Aphrodite and homosexuality represent original research and are improperly sourced to articles that don't support them. For instance:

According to the Symposium, Aphrodite Ourania is the inspiration of male homosexual desire, specifically the ephebic eros. Aphrodite Pandemos, by contrast, is the younger of the two goddesses: the common Aphrodite, born from the union of Zeus and Dione, and the inspiration of heterosexual desire, the "lesser" of the two loves.

This claim is sourced to Plato's Symposium itself and to Richard Hunter's book on the Symposium. When I checked Hunter, he says nothing of the sort.

Similiarly, this section, recently added:

Aphrodite and gods in her retinue, such as the Erotes: Eros, Himeros and Pothos are sometimes considered patrons of homosexual love between males. In the poetry of Sappho, Aphrodite is identified as the patron of lesbians.

The first claim is sourced to Cassell's Encyclopedia of Queer Myth, which, again, says nothing of the sort - the same reference is then used to say that Aphrodite is the patron of Lesbians, and again, it is not in the citation given. The only properly sourced claim here seems to be about Eros, not Aphrodite.

Unless an actual reliable source can be found saying "Aphrodite is the patron of Lesbains" (which assuredly does not exist), we need to remove these additions.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:22, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

The latter addition was copypasted across from LGBT themes in mythology, so that page would have to be corrected as well. —VeryRarelyStable (talk) 23:28, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

References

Listing as a "homosexuality and bisexuality goddess"

@VeryRarelyStable:, I don't think this category is warrented. All we have is a single reference in Plato to the idea that one of two Aphrodites is supposedly the goddess of pederasty. None of the rest of the article supports this notion, and scholars are fairly clear that this is Plato's own invention. Furthermore, the nature of the category suggests that Aphrodite is the goddess of homosexuality and bisexuality, which is quite obviously not true.--Ermenrich (talk) 22:25, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

@Ermenrich: If Aphrodite was not a goddess of same-gender attraction, then either

• some other god was
• this aspect of life was not considered to be under the jurisdiction of the gods

or

• this aspect of life was not known to the Greeks

—none of which, I put it to you, is the case. Unless we suggest that the Erotes were the other gods under the first possibility; but they clearly answer to Aphrodite.

While Sappho's appeal to Aphrodite may not establish the latter as a "patron" of lesbianism, or whatever language you might use, it does clearly demonstrate that, when you felt attraction to a person of your own gender, it was Aphrodite you prayed to for help. (I don't recall whether Sappho is mentioned on the page after the most recent edits, but she should be.)

If that's not what's meant by "goddess of homosexuality and bisexuality" – why the emphasis on "of"? – then I confess myself ignorant as to what is meant.

—VeryRarelyStable (talk) 04:20, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

You prayed to Aphrodite for help if you felt opposite-sex attraction too. She was the goddess of love, not of some particular type of love.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:29, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

@VeryRarelyStable: your argument for inclusion, however reasonable, constitutes of course original research. Paul August ☎ 18:11, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Ermenrich, the category is unwarrented. What we would need here are reliable secondary sources. Paul August ☎ 18:11, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

@VeryRarelyStable: I think you may be misunderstanding a few things a bit here. First of all, the relationship between a deity and their domain was not one-to-one. There were areas of human life that, at least as far as we know, had no specific deities to govern them. For instance, as far as I currently can recall, there were no Greek gods whose domain specifically included wild grasses and ferns, but grass is a pretty common element in most people's lives. Furthermore, multiple deities could be associated with the same thing. For instance, Aphrodite is associated with sexual desire, but so is Eros; their domains overlap.

Second of all, as I have already mentioned in this edit summary, there has been a widespread consensus among scholars for at least several decades that the ancient Greeks had no concepts of people being "heterosexual," "bisexual," or "homosexual"; they only recognized there being heterosexual and homosexual acts—not heterosexual or homosexual people. Usually when we say "homosexuality" or "bisexuality" in English, we are talking about people being one or the other of those things. Therefore, labelling any Greek deity as a "god/goddess of bisexuality/homosexuality" would be an egregious mischaracterization. I hope this explanation is helpful. —Katolophyromai (talk) 04:17, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

@Katolophyromai: I think I understand both of these points pretty well. Paul August's point about original research, I must admit, is well-made.

Starting with the second point, yes, I am well aware that the concept of sexual orientation is a modern one. However, the category in question does not refer to "homosexual and bisexual orientation", but more broadly to "homosexuality and bisexuality" – both words that can refer to acts as well as people.

On the first point, I'm under no illusion that Greek deities had exclusive claims over their domains, as if they were something out of a role-playing game. But we wouldn't baulk at – for instance – categorizing Zeus as a "god of thunder" merely because he was, more broadly, a "god of weather". Sexual desire was Aphrodite's specialty; sexual desire included desire for one's own gender; ergo, Aphrodite was the god you would turn to, as Sappho instantiates, if you wanted divine help with your desire for a person of your own gender. Maybe second after Eros for some people, but she was closely linked, mythologically, to Eros.

The reason I'm picking nits over this is that certain users, to judge by their contribs pages, appear to have taken it as their mission to systematically remove as many references to LGBT sexualities in historical pages as they can get away with. The relative acceptance of same-gender desire at least between men is a notable feature of ancient Greek culture, and I am concerned that it should not be under-represented, obviously while remaining within Wikipedia guidelines.

—VeryRarelyStable (talk) 05:34, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

@VeryRarelyStable: Well, this issue is actually very complicated and it is important to note that the "relative acceptance" you speak of was actually highly conditional. This issue of ancient Greek views on homosexuality gets really complicated and I do not want to go into a full explanation here; I am currently writing an article about ancient Greek attitudes towards homosexuality on my website in which I plan to explain this issue in great depth. I do not know when I will finish that article, though, and it may be a while. In the meantime, I highly recommend the third and most recent edition of the book Greek Homosexuality by Kenneth Dover, published by Harvard University Press, which delves into the ways in which Greek acceptance of homosexual activity was actually somewhat limited. —Katolophyromai (talk) 06:31, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Unless you can find reliable sources stating that Aphrodite is a goddess of homosexuality, the category is WP:OR and needs to be removed. As Katolophyromai explains, it is completely anachronistic to even describe homosexuality in ancient Greece. Aphrodite (and Eros, for that matter) were both simply love gods, not gods of homosexual love specifically. Sappho calls on her, but so does every other Greek poet in love. Is Cupid the god of heterosexuality because Ovid calls on him in the Amores? You're forcing a modern category on them.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:41, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

@Ermenrich: How do you suggest we correct the error without leaving the false impression, to readers from modern societies in which heterosexuality is the default, that Aphrodite was a goddess only of heterosexual love? —VeryRarelyStable (talk) 01:38, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure why anyone would think that, but listing her as a goddess of homosexuality makes as little sense as listing her as a goddess of heterosexuality. Perhaps @Katolophyromai: has some ideas for how to approach that particular issue, but in the meantime there is a clear consensus against including this category and I'm removing it.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:29, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

There should be a hyperlinked reference about the sanctuary that marks her birthplace

Under the "Birth" section, after this sentence:

> Aphrodite is usually said to have been born near her chief center of worship, Paphos, on the island of Cyprus, which is why she is sometimes called "Cyprian", especially in the poetic works of Sappho.

I think it would be highly relevant to say this–and the sanctuary is not mentioned anywhere else in article:

> The Sanctuary of Aphrodite Paphia, marking her birthplace, and was a place of pilgrimages in the ancient world for centuries, and the ruins thereof can still be visited to this day.

And then start the next sentence without "However" and just say:

> Other versions of her myth ...

http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Aphrodite#Birth

InternetUser25 (talk) 02:12, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Done, minus unencyclopaedic language about "ruins thereof" (that information is available at the wikilink).—VeryRarelyStable (talk) 02:40, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Identification with the planet Venus

Is this something that should be removed, or should it be expanded upon somewhere in the main body? As shown on the planet's page, the Greeks initially assumed Venus was two different stars; Phosphorus (the morning star), and Hesperus (the evening star). However, either Pythagoras or Parmenides had realized by the 500s BC that both were actually one object. I'm guessing that when the Romans colonized Greece, eventually they also must have realized that Venus was one object rather than two and gave it that name. And given the heavy syncretization between the Roman and Greek gods, the Romans must have called the planet Venus because the Greeks did too; calling it Aphrodite. Lastly, in Greek, we do refer to the planet as Aphrodite. In general, the whole things seems somehwat complicated. PanagiotisZois (talk) 16:20, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Aphrodite in the Iliad

Is there more information on the portrayal of Aphrodite in the Iliad.GOC2020 (talk) 21:06, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Removed paragraph

Someone added this paragraph to the "Anger myths" section. It has some good information in it, but it is really poorly written and would take ages for me to clean up, which I don't have time for right now. It is written entirely in a sort of pseudo-archaic language and it has tons of grammar mistakes and words that are apparently missing. It is absurdly long and should really be broken in multiple paragraphs. For some reason half of it is randomly in italics. It had an "end blockquote" tag in it at one point (which I have removed here) but no "begin blockquote" tag. Part of it is apparently quoted from some source, but it is entirely unclear which source is being quoted. Here is the paragraph that I have removed:

Aphrodite who cursed goddess Eos to be perpetually in love and have an insatiable sexual desire because once had Eos lain with Aphrodite's sweetheart Ares, the god of war. Propoetides had dared to deny Venus' [Aphrodite's] divinity. For that the goddess' rage, it's said, made them the first strumpets to prostitute their bodies' charms. As shame retreated and their cheeks grew hard, they turned with little change to stones of flint. Cinyras's daughters Braesia, Laogora, Orsedice by reason of the wrath of Aphrodite cohabited with foreigners, and ended their life in Egypt. Halia, a nymph who lived on an island that would later be named Rhodes after her only daughter, Rhodos (or Rhode). Halia was the daughter of Thalassa, sister of the Telchines, and mother of Rhodos and six sons by Poseidon. Shortly after Aphrodite’s birth, the goddess was traveling the oceans. When Halia’s young sons arrogantly refused to let Aphrodite land upon their shore, the goddess cursed them with insanity. In their madness, they raped Halia. As punishment, Poseidon buried them in the island’s sea-caverns. Xanthius was a descendant of Bellerophon, and father of Leucippus and an unnamed daughter. Through the wrath of Aphrodite, Leucippus fell in love with his own sister. The passion turned out too strong for him to suppress, so he addressed his mother, imploring her to help him and threatening that he would kill himself if she didn't. She united the girl to Leucippus, and they consorted for a while. But the girl was already betrothed to another man, to whom someone reported the matter. The groom went on to inform Xanthius, without telling him the name of the seducer. Xanthius went straight to his daughter's chamber, where she was together with Leucippus right at the moment. On hearing him enter, she tried to escape, but Xanthius hit her with a dagger, thinking that he was slaying the seducer, and killed her. Leucippus, failing to recognize his father at first, slew him. When the truth was revealed, he had to leave the country and took part in colonization of Crete and the lands in Asia Minor. Later, he was loved by Leucophrye. Adonis was the son of Myrrha, who was cursed by Aphrodite with insatiable lust for her own father, King Cinyras of Cyprus, after Myrrha's mother bragged that her daughter was more beautiful than the goddess. Driven out after becoming pregnant, Myrrha was changed into a myrrh tree, but still gave birth to Adonis. Clio fell in love with Pierus, son of Magnes, in consequence of the wrath of Aphrodite, whom she had twitted with her love of Adonis; and having met him she bore him a son Hyacinth. Despite Diomedes's noble treatment of her son Aeneas, Aphrodite never managed to forget about the Argive spear that had once pierced her flesh in the fields of Troy. She helped his wife Aegialia to obtain not one, but many lovers. (According to different traditions, Aegialeia was living in adultery with Hippolytus, Cometes or Cyllabarus.) Aegialia, being helped by the Argives, prevented Diomedes from entering the city. Or else, if he ever entered Argos, he had to take sanctuary at the altar of Hera, and thence flee with his companions by night. Cometes was shortly the king of Argos, in Diomedes' absence, but was quickly replaced by the rightful heir, Cyanippus, who was the son of Aegialeus.

I'm leaving this here just for future reference so it will be easy to find in case someone is willing to clean this up to make it readable and restore it to the article. —Katolophyromai (talk) 06:28, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2020

change "Myrtles" to "myrtles" in the introductory paragraph (capitalization) Ayuskoto (talk) 23:00, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 02:01, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Afër-dita have a specific meaning in Albanian

Aphrodite translated in Albanian is Afrodite(come closer day) In the Albanian version "Afërdita" mean "near day" because Venus the star with which it was associated in ancient times, anticipated the sun and therefore the day was near. The word "aphrodisiac" comes from the root "afro" with the meaning of what brings, attracts or generates attraction. FrankoGjeli (talk) 01:33, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Infobox image

Hello, I think this image is more suitable for the Infobox. What are your views. .💠245CMR💠.•^👥📜 06:30, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

I don’t agree. There is no info attached to this image about its provenance except its location at a house museum in Amsterdam. I could find little more online except that it is part of a set of three sculptures depicting the Judgment of Paris. It appears to be a European Baroque sculpture although I haven’t found any mention of the artist’s name. It does not seem to be historically significant. An Ancient Greek depiction of this Greek goddess seems more appropriate than an early modern depiction like this one. — ℜob C. alias ALAROB 15:58, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Amsterdam - Museum Willet-Holthuysen 18.JPG

Lovers and Children table

Anchises with his son Aeneas (by Aphrodite) is missing. --95.116.186.201 (talk) 21:07, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

In the Orphic tradition, Dionysus and Aphrodite are the parents of Chthonic Hermes. (talk) 21:53 , 9 October 2021 (ATC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Titian - Venus with a Mirror - Google Art Project.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 11:08, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Aphrodite Had More Consorts Than Only Hephaestus

Hera was/is known as the Goddess of Legal Marriage. Venus was/is known as the Goddess of Love/Pleasure Marriage. Hephaestus, Mars, and Mercury are all prophesied as husbands of Venus. Mars and Mercury deserve to be added to the list of Aphrodite's consorts.

• You're mixing your Olympians with your Dii Consentes; they're equivalent but not the same, and should not be confused. I don't know what you mean when you claim that "Hephaestus, Mars, and Mercury are all prophesised as husbands of Venus" ?? If you want to add something to the article, please make sure it's well-sourced. And please don't forget to sign your posts. Haploidavey (talk) 04:43, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

"Kypris" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Kypris and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 January 2#Kypris until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion.  — Mr. Guye (talk) (contribs)  02:39, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 August 2022

I would like to add an image of the Greek Goddess Aphrodite, as she is seen in contemporary art.

Aphrodite is known as the Greek Goddess of heavenly love, beauty and passion. Aphrodite is reimagined here, in contemporary art by Andrea LaHue.

Randomactofflower (talk) 05:50, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: Randomactofflower, welcome to Wikipedia! I'm afraid that when discussing the addition of images to an article the current practice is that consensus is required and that an edit request isn't the right venue.

To work on getting consensus, you would simply create a new section (the button New section next to the edit button will help you with this) on this page and explain why you believe the image should be included, and interested editors will in due time participate. If you have any questions regarding Wikipedia at all, I encourage you to head over to the Teahouse - a venue designed specifically to help new editors. You can also always come to my talk page, though I may not be as helpful as the Teahouse hosts. Happy editing! —Sirdog (talk) 09:01, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

quality of article

there are numerous spelling, grammatical, and typographical errors throughout. there are many unnecessary links, and many unlinked but important words and phrases. lots of the writing is convoluted and difficult to read. Henriio (talk) 10:56, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Infobox image

The Aphrodite of Fréjus statue on display

I beleave this image is a better image to be used as the main image at the top featured in the infobox. This image is a more popular image of Aphrodite, which has it's own Wikipedia page and is also used by Encyclopedia Britannica. For now the image will be used as a regular image in this articles page. Let me know your thoughts. RileyXeon (talk) 21:03, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Wrong Paris linked

In the "Anger myths" section, an internal link to Paris (city) should be changed to the Trojan prince, http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/Paris_(mythology). Tartopohm (talk) 04:42, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for noticing the error. Dimadick (talk) 05:07, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Image/Artist discrepancy

Under the "Art" subheading, there is an incorrectly identified painting. Alexandre Cabanel's 1863 "Birth of Venus" is pictured, but it is subtitled "The Birth of Venus (c. 1485) by Sandro Botticelli". 2601:197:B7F:B7C0:1B0E:A186:FD70:A2B3 (talk) 23:24, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Illyrian etymology

There is nothing extraordinary about it, @Khirurg. It may be extraordinary to you. Unless you can prove that Illyrians and Ancient Greeks were not living literally next to each other for a very very long time and were living 20.000 miles away from each other (which you can't) this will stay. I attempted to remain as neutral as I could, using "has been proposed", "according to", "suggested by", etc. There is even no consensus on the origin of the name. I wonder why nobody else intervened me in the last 12 hours but it was you, again. Additionally, can you disprove one of several arguments that the author has explained well in his work and cited top-linguists like J. Matzinger? And about WP:CIVIL this [1] [2] [3] explains everything what needs to be said. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:26, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

The claim is indeed extraordinary. The worship of Aphrodite (and therefore her name as well), is attested as early as the 8th century BC, and probably goes back much further. The origin of the cult appears to be semitic rather than proto-Indo-Europeaan. Virtually nothing is known of Illyrian, especially by the 8th century BC, let alone Albanian, this far back in time. It's not even certain that Albanian derives from Illyrian. So to claim an Albanian etymology for a name that goes back to deep antiquity is definitely extraordinary, not to mention bordering into WP:FRINGE territory. The source itself, the author appears to be a graduate student, and the publication is some kind of conference proceedings (i.e. not a peer-reviewed journal, not even certain if it's peer-reviewed at all). Not the kind of source that's needed for a claim of this magnitude. This is a high visibility article, watched by many people. The standard for inclusion is very high. Khirurg (talk) 19:34, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

And that's just to address the first sentence you added. The second sentence is even worse. This is not very unlikely... That it's nor very unlikely is just your own conjecture . Athanassakis doesn't mention Aphrodite in his work. You literally just made it up that it's "not very unlikely". The third sentence is literal folk etymology that no one connects to Aphrodite. Khirurg (talk) 19:49, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Many points are very weak. Just because we do not know many things about Illyrian does not mean we can not lay foundation on etymology. The point if Albanian is even Illyrian is irrelevant to this case. Albanian is a Paleo-Balkanic language that relates to Illyrian (literally no modern scholar disagrees to that) and the author compares the reconstructed Proto-Albanian term to a possible Paleo-Balkanic term. The origin of the cult may be Semitic, Hittite or Korean, the etymology can still be Indo-European. I agree with the second part of the sentence while the third is just what the reconstuced PALB term means today. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:35, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

I would be fine with "A more vague theory argues of an Illyrian origin" and at the end of the sentence "This has to be seen with caution since very little is known about Illyrian"AlexBachmann (talk) 20:55, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't think you appreciate just how incredibly...bold the claim is. Not only is he implying that it is a dead certainty that Albanian is the same as Illyrian, but he is claiming that the Greek name originates from the Albanian name. This despite the fact that Greek is first attested in ~1500 BC, and Albanian not for another ~3000 years later. He's not saying that the etymologies are related or somehow connected (somewhat plausible due to proximity, perhaps), but that the Greek name derives from the Albanian name. That is an incredibly strong claim. The conference proceedings was published literally yesterday, and we don't know what the response of the academic community will be. My guess is it will be strongly criticized, or even worse, totally ignored. If on the other hand the claim is accepted, we could revisit it at some point in the future. Khirurg (talk) 21:09, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

You need to accept that the attestation of a language does not say anything about the age of a language. Even though because Albanian was attested in the 15th century it is still Paleo-Balkanic. Alright, let's wait for a response. AlexBachmann (talk) 21:18, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

There is no doubt that Aphrodite's early cult and name begun as hellenized versions of older Eastern deities, and attempts to derive them from Indo-European tradition & language have long been abandoned in modern scholarship. Its earliest attestation in Greek is from around 8th century BC. This, combined with its multiple attestations in the syllabary of Cyprus –the south-eastern most of the Bronze Age Greek world, a mixing pot of early Greek / Phoenecian (and other Eastern) cultures, and Aphrodite's origin-island in classical mythology– leaves little (if any) room for doubt.

Folk etymologies that seemingly make some sense have always existed. Various ancient Greek names (many of which of pre-Greek origin) have long been subjected to folk etymologies in neighbouring languages, mainly originating from laymen's circles or with little or no attention outside of their own ethnic group. @Khirurg already made points about the huge attestation gaps and the extraodinary nature of such claims. (Sagan standard) A similar issue appears to be in the Prende article with the same suggested etymology of Afrodita (which seems reated to Aphrodite and most likely a derivative).Piccco (talk) 12:34, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

The name Afrodita/Afërdita is the Albanian native name for the planet Venus, and it is a compound of afro dita 'come forth the day/dawn', two native Albanian words that have been reconstructed by linguists as *apro and *dītā. The name Aprodita is attested in Messapic language, regarded today as the closest language to Albanian. So I would not consider unlikely the theory provided by Dedvukaj (2023), which is based on extensive linguistic analysis. If you want to exclude his theory from this article I would not oppose it, but you can't exclude it from articles like Prende or Messapic language, because the reconstructed forms provided by Dedvukaj actually coincide with attested forms in those languages, hence they can hardly be considered extraordinary conjectures. Linguistic scholarly analysis should be provided to label them as such, not editors' opinions. – Βατο (talk) 12:54, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Dedvukaj's theory can be added to the article, since many other theories are there. I am not against that. However, as Dedvukaj himself notes, there is a general consensus in scholarship that the name "Aphrodite" is of Semitic origin. This should be made clear in the article, especially given the fact that it seems to be backed by high-quality RS speciliazing in Greek mythology etymologies (West, Beekes). On the Messapic Aprodite and Albanian Afrodita, there is no proof that they were not borrowed from the Greek Aphrodite. There is clear evidence that old Albanian (better said, Proto-Albanian) had Prema/Prenda, but there is no evidence whatsoever that Afrodita is not a recent creation in Albanian based on the similarity of "Aphrodite" with "afër ditë". A few ancient Greek mythology figures have been reliably linked with Albanian words, especially Balios. It was a white worse, and "balë" means "white horse". That link has been made by multiple well-known academics. On the other hand, if "Apero dita"-> "Aphrodita" were a reliable derivation, it would have been supported by some well-known scholars long before Dedvukaj. Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:00, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Ktrimi991, "there is no evidence whatsoever that Afrodita is not a recent creation in Albanian based on the similarity of "Aphrodite" with "afër ditë" how could this have happened? The Albanian name Afrodita/Afërdita is the native name for Venus, the morning and evening star, and in Albanian it is a phrase that makes complete sense. The ancient association with the planet Venus actually strengthens the semantic explanation provided by Dedvukaj (2023). As for the evidence, the name Prende is not attested in antiquity, on the other hand apro-dita, the exact Proto-Albanian form of modern Albanian afro dita, is attested in Messapic, the closest language to Albanian and either a sister or daughter language of Illyrian. – Βατο (talk) 14:34, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Prema gave the name to Friday in Albanian. Days are named after pagan gods in Albanian, in line with the Roman naming tradition. It also gave the name to "mbrëmje". The existence and etymology of Prema are supported by multiple high-quality RS like Joseph&Hyllestad, Orel and Mallory&Adams etc. On the other hand, Aprodita->Aphrodite does not even remotely have that degree of support among high-quality RS. Afërdita being a native name in Albanian does not have any kind of evidence. It has been first attested in Albanian in the 19th or 20th century, and as such could have been borrowed by Albanians very late. The similarity of Afërdita with "afër ditë" does not serve as evidence, it could be a coincidance. Messapic Aprodita too could have been borrowed from ancient Greek Aphrodite, which itself was borrowed from a Semitic culture. In any case, the important thing is that, as Dedvukaj himself notes, there is a general consensus in scholarship that Aphrodite comes from a Semitic tradition, and that Dedvukaj's claim has not been supported by any other high-quality RS. One can't treat as equals Dedvukaj's claim and a view that has widespread support. As I said, I am not against adding Dedvukaj's view, but the article should make it clear that there is a general consensus that Aphrodite comes from Semitic. Btw, Dedvukaj claims that there is "archaeological" evidence that Illyrians had important interactions with Phoenicians. Can you cite me a single archaelogical paper talking about this "archaeological" evidence? Bato, you have done a great work on ancient topics. Keep the good work up, and do not waste time with such dubious stuff. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:16, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Dedvukaj really sounded convincing at first, we can't blame anybody for using him as a source (especially not Bato). AlexBachmann (talk) 20:04, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Dedvukaj's paper is a reliable source published in a peer reviewed journal, and his extensive linguistic analysis and proposed reconstructions are based on other linguists' scholarly achievements. Nobody can blame editors for using a reliable source. Ktrimi991, Dedvukaj explicitly cites Stipčević, The Illyrians, p.41, which says: "As tangible proof of the presence of the Phoenicians among the Encheleae and the southern Illyrians one must take into account numerous bronze axes of the so-called Albano-Dalmation (or Skadar) type which, by their similar-ity, could only be related to axes from the near East.". Have you actually read the paper? I think Dedvukaj's theory is the one that makes more sense in terms of historical linguistics and semantics. But if consensus is emerging for its exclusion from this article until more scholars discuss it, I'm ok with that. – Βατο (talk) 20:44, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Βατο, there is really no meaningful evidence of Phoenician-Illyrian contacts, at least not as much as to give credence to the idea that Illyrians got an important deity from the Phoenicians, gave her a name and then transfered that to ancient Greeks. Now, Dedvukaj thanks Brian Joseph for his help and feedback. So Dedvukaj's reconstructions of Proto-Albanian phonetic changes are OK. Time will tell if this claim made by Dedvukaj on Aphrodite's etymology will gain currency among scholars. Personally I doubt it, but I am not a linguist anyway. If Dedvukaj gets support from other scholars, then ofc it should be given much weight in the article. Until then you either might want to mention it in the article and note that there is a general consensus for a Semitic origin, or wait until some scholars discuss Dedvukaj's claim. Up to you, at least from me there is no opposition either way. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:46, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: Dedvukaj's paper is WP:RS but being RS doesn't make a source by default not WP:FRINGE or worthy of inclusion (WP:UNDUE). In the example about Shkodran axes, Dedvukaj is wrong without any possibility of ever being somewhat close to a plausible theory with such a statement. Dedvukaj copied this opinion from Garašanin almost verbatim: the Scutari type to the Bronze Age and finds the ultimate origin of the Scutari and Albano – Dalmatian types of axe in the Far East. (cited in Hammond 1967). This opinion found no acceptance in archaeology outside Yugoslavia - just like many other theories of Garašanin, it was not supported in research by other schools of archaeology, died out and has been laid to rest for eternity by the Lazaridis-Reich (2022) study even from the perspective of genetic anthropology. Albano-Dalmatian axes derived from Cetina culture, Glasinac-Mati culture and similar Balkan Bronze Age cultures, but they have nothing to do with any population movement related to Anatolia or the Levante. From a genetic perspective, LBA Montenegro, IA Albania and specifically the Ohrid area share the same distinct Paleo-Balkan profile which doesn't have any links to Anatolia or the Levante. In general, as I read the paper I found many red flags which truly made me wonder about the peer review process in this journal. I wouldn't necessarily oppose its use to the extent that it's compared and contrasted with other sources, which in itself would probably lead to deciding to not use the source. It is interesting that Dedvukaj does acknowledge that there is a consensus Importantly, Aphrodite's name is not attested in Mycenaean Greek. Boedeker (3) points out that this may indicate that the writers of Linear B did not know of Aphrodite during the Bronze Age but reminds us that knowledge of Mycenaean Greek is limited. For this reason, the present consensus is that Aphrodite may be derived from the Semitic name of the goddess Atoret/ Atarte (see Beekes 2016: 179). The association with the sky appears to signify the oldest tradition and hence its association with Phoenician Atarte but in proposing his own thesis (which is self-contradictory, but I won't go there), he never addresses the view which the author himself recognizes as the consensus.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:56, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

  He says that a Semitic etymology is consensus. He does not explicitly agree thought. AlexBachmann (talk) 00:25, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

Name in Ancient Greek

I was curious about the spelling of her name in Ancient Greek. According to several search results it is Αφροδίτη, from Αφρός (foam), and really ‘Daughter of foam’, or ‘Foam-daughter’.

Should I edit the page, or are there standards someone will defend? I’d like to introduce this information like the page for Dionysius is at the moment. It would be my template.

I would be editing the first line of text and information further down. Is there a standard for one or more of these things? 8.46.93.108 (talk) 09:20, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

The etymology of Aphrodite's name is discussed in the first section of the body of the article (Etymology). —VeryRarelyStable 12:03, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Aphrodite in Pop Culture?

There’s a page for Ares In Pop Culture, yet since there isn’t one for Aphrodite, should there instead be a section on this page? 67.8.168.231 (talk) 21:59, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 April 2024

Under the subheading "Art", in the first paragraph under the gallery, remove The Birth of Venus (1863) by Alexandre Cabanel 95.88.156.116 (talk) 14:30, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: Why? - FlightTime (open channel) 14:35, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Marking edit request as answered, as the request is awaiting user input. Courtesy ping to @FlightTime: if you might have left it open for a reason. --Ferien (talk) 15:57, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

@Ferien: I marked the request as {{ndfn}}, the template script left it open. - FlightTime (open channel) 16:27, 23 April 2024 (UTC)