Help talk:Userspace draft

Example of user draft in Draft: namespace

I cannot understand the intent of Draft:Example/Username. I see 'Example' is the example username. If there is a draft article that has identical name as 'Example' username, they collide. Shouldn't it be Draft:Username/Example/Lipsum or something? AkiGoto (talk) 05:23, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

This information page is not about stuff in Draft namespace. It is about stuff on a user subpage. As volunteers, editors have the freedom to create articles and potential content in the Draft namespace or on a personal subpage. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:23, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Harassment of editors who are creating content on subpages

We need to say something that forbids stalking and harassment of editors who are working on legitimate content on their subpages. While nothing is truly and fully "personal" here (even though the editor does initially own the copyright of what they create), and any editor who is obsessed enough about another editor's actions can observe what they are doing, they should not disturb that editor's content creation activities, ridicule them, or broadcast what they are doing on their subpage if what is being done there does not violate any rules. Such harassment is uncollegial and disruptive.

If there is any legitimate concern about such a subpage, the editor should be approached on their talk page in a civil manner and the issues discussed there and only there. (Note that using the talk page of a subpage does not ping the editor, so use their regular talk page.) They should AGF and be civil, not try to get another editor in trouble. Bad-faith editors who obsessively stalk other editors and ridicule what they are doing are detrimental to the project. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:40, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Changes reverted

I made four careful changes, with edit summaries, and, because I was aware of previous issues here, I was very careful to not change the policy by introducing anything new that wasn't already there.

They were all reverted by @Just Step Sideways: with this edit summary:

"Pretty much the last person on earth who should be altering policy on user space drafts."

My changes were restored by @Blueboar: with this edit summary:

"I think these changes were improvements."

Then PME reverted back to the status quo version, so we are here. Let's discuss this.

I can understand why JSS didn't like me making any changes here (we have history!), but, being very conscious of that, I was careful to not "alter" the policy.

I only made (1) some totally innocent improvements of grammar (which were all reverted unnecessarily) and (2) made explicit what was already implicit in the next sentence. That is not an "alteration" of the policy, but more accurately is a "clarification" of the policy. We like clarifications as they prevent misunderstandings.

Before:

Articles in the Wikipedia:Draft namespace can be edited and moved into the main encyclopedia by anyone. So you can create the draft in your personal userspace, move to the draft namespace to be edited by anyone, and later moved to the main encyclopedia.

After:

Unlike userspace drafts, draft articles in the Wikipedia:Draft namespace can be edited and moved into the main encyclopedia by anyone. So you can create the draft in your personal userspace, move it to the draft namespace to be edited by anyone, and later move it to the main encyclopedia. (bold added to clarify the parallelism)

So there was no "altering" of the meaning of the policy. We have two different policy pages because draftspace and userspace are different. This difference in the "right to edit" is one difference. It is not absolute, but it exists under normal conditions. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 03:01, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I don’t know the history between the various editors here, but the edits struck me as minor improvements to grammar, and not significant changes to the meaning of the policy. Am I missing something? Blueboar (talk) 13:48, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

The actual edits are what's important. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 14:18, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, I'll grant that I misspoke as this is a help page, not a policy page. However, this is not the first time you have altered WP-space pages at the exact same time that you were engagened in a proloned dispute about the exact issue elsewhere, creating the impression that you are altering the page to support your own views. It seems fairly clear that you are trying to draw a distinction that suggests user space drafts are akin to private property, you've said you believe this elsewhere, so this just looks bad for you to be doing this, especially right now. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 20:40, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Ah… in that case… it is wise to avoid “seeming impropriety”… while I still support the edit, I would suggest that we wait to implement it until the dispute elsewhere is settled. In my opinion, the edit is only a minor grammar improvement, and so does not need to be implemented right this second. It can wait. Blueboar (talk) 21:06, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

@Blueboar: I think we can continue the discussion because there is no "alteration" of meaning. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:28, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

No, I do not believe that "drafts are akin to private property", and if I have given that impression, then I have spoken awkwardly. Sorry about that. Below I have elaborated more fully my understanding of the topic. I'm sure it's imperfect, but I am trying here.

Since my proposed change here does not really "alter" the meaning, but "clarifies" it, I don't see a problem. Others do not see an "alteration" either. I only made "explicit" what was already "implicit" in the next sentence and in longstanding practice.

We have these two spaces because we recognize some differences between them, and the right to edit them is one of them. Drafts in draftspace can "be edited by anyone", unlike drafts in personal userspace. This is similar to essays. Essays in projectspace can "be edited by anyone", unlike essays in personal userspace. There the author has more rights than others.

We treat the spaces differently. Things that are "implied" are easily misunderstood, hence the need for "clarification". There is no need to "alter" the "meaning" of the policy, just make the meaning plainer. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:26, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

By the addition of the text Unlike userspace drafts, the After: version implies that userspace drafts can not be edited by anyone. The Before: version does not. This is a change in meaning. Rotary Engine ^talk 21:15, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

@Rotary Engine: excuse me for outdenting your comment, per WP:Refactor, but I don't think it will disturb the meaning. It will just make it easier to start from the left edge for what is a new angle to this topic. Feel free to change the indent if it makes a difference.

I hadn't thought of that possible interpretation, so thanks for mentioning that angle of the topic. Let's look at this again and parse this angle you mention.

Unlike userspace drafts, draft articles in the Wikipedia:Draft namespace can be edited and moved into the main encyclopedia by anyone. So you can create the draft in your personal userspace, move it to the draft namespace to be edited by anyone, and later move it to the main encyclopedia. (bold added to clarify the parallelism)

What I mean is "Unlike userspace drafts, which are usually edited only by the original author in that space". That is normal practice, and that is the explicit meaning of what is implied (and thus easily misunderstood) in the next sentence's statement that content in draftspace can "be edited by anyone". That is not said about personal userspace, and if it was, then what's the point of having userspace drafts? What's the point of good faith editors even creating articles if one can never have some peace to write without disruption from busybodies who stalk and hound them and the content they are working on? -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:16, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

"Be edited by anyone" is stated for a reason, which is that it is not normally (and there are exceptions to every rule!) the case with personal userspace drafts for others to edit them (user talk pages are a slightly different matter). The "rights" are slightly different.

OWN is not a zero-sum game. It's not 100% one way or the other. No editor has 100% control of what they write at Wikipedia, but policy, tradition, and courtesy do treat different spaces, and rights in those spaces, quite differently. Editors may not "own" their content, but they do, within limits, have certain rights over it UNTIL they put it into mainspace as an article. That changes everything.

OWN does not mention drafts at all, and for good reason. Drafts are the one place that we approach closest to ownership rights over the content, but I don't like to write that as it will be misunderstood by those who don't want to understand and stop before reading this next sentence. It's never total, but closer than anywhere else. The other end is published content, where those rights are completely lost. (You cannot "lose" rights you never had.) That content now belongs to the community and is common property.

OWN does not mean that editors have zero rights. They do have some rights, and they can lose them, most notably when they publish an article (promote a draft to article space), they lose all rights to it, yet there is more. Don't stop after "lose all rights". Our rules explicitly recognize a difference between unpublished and published content. A draft is "unpublished" until it is "published" in article/project space.

There is a parallel to essays. Drafts in draftspace can "be edited by anyone", unlike drafts in personal userspace, and essays in projectspace can "be edited by anyone", unlike essays in personal userspace. There the author has more rights than others.

OWN instructs other editors to treat that article and its author with respect. It uses a lot of words to instruct other editors to respect the original author's efforts and their intentions when they wrote the article. They should be respected and consulted when some types of changes are made. It's just a matter of courtesy and common sense. The original author has no veto power, but has a right to be treated respectfully. (A consensus can easily overrule them.)

Readers here should read OWN again with that in mind. It's amazing how much deference for the original author it promotes, and that applies even more so to a userpace draft. Be fair and be cognizant of the context. A draft is not an article. Without this, editors lose their incentive to contribute new articles. We want them to feel safe when creating articles in their userspace. Other editors will get their chance to edit that content when it is moved into draftspace, where it can "be edited by anyone", or published as an article where it is obvious that anyone can edit it.

What I said above does not lessen or reinterpret the OWN policy. It is still valid, and I support it. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:16, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

• Rotary Engine is right. The addition of Unlike userspace drafts changes the meaning in a way that is not supported by currently policy or standard community practices. PackMecEng (talk) 16:18, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

  But it is supported by Valjean's extremist views which, despite his attempted denials, have been plainly stated elsewhere. He has, for quite some time, been using user space drafts to collect his own personally preferred versions of WP:BLP articles, mainly related to Donald Trump, and has gone to very extreme lengths, including deliberately trying to introduce a chilling effect with threats, when challenged on it. And we see here him filibustering a discussion with walls of texts, trying to exhaust any who disagree with him. So, I reiterate, he should not be directly editing pages relating to user space drafts as he is, as we speak, using them for purposes never intended and attempting to alter advice about them to suit his own desired outcome. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 18:08, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

  Well, in case you hadn't noticed, I am not edit warring over this. That's not my style. Here we have an exchange of ideas, so please stick to this exact situation (the two sentences) and don't poison the well by bringing other things into it. I am not doing anything that uniquely benefits just me, but a clarification benefits everyone by preventing future misunderstandings.

Do you really not see the grammatical construction and proper parsing of those two sentences? I'm a native English speaker, so I see it clearly. Any lawyer or English teacher would agree with my parsing. Sometimes some words that exist in isolation in a sentence do so only because they are referring to some unseen outside circumstance that is not immediately mentioned clearly. If our normal practice was to edit other people's userspace essays and drafts without any inhibitions or respect for the author, those words would not be there, but that is NOT our normal practice. Right? Answer that. Describe our normal practice for userspace drafts and personal essays. Who normally edits them?

Only using "implied" wording leads to misunderstandings. I have just made explicit what is only implicit. That does not change the meaning of the policy, but just makes it clearer by clarifying it. There is a contrast in normal practice between the two spaces that should be explicit.

Our normal practice is that an editor is normally the only one who is writing their draft articles and personal essays in their userspace. Prove to me that such is not normal practice if you don't agree.

As I make VERY clear above, that doesn't mean they "own" their content, but it does recognize that there is a difference between "your userpace" and "my userspace", and we should respect that difference. There are circumstances where other editors are allowed to make certain defined types of edits (mentioned above), but they are otherwise not supposed to just march in and start changing things in another editor's userspace drafts and essays. That would be improper. Maybe that's part of why "draft" is never mentioned in OWN.

Personal essays and personal userspace (not draftspace) draft articles are properly attributed to the one author who has that userspace. The status of that content changes radically when they remove it from personal userspace and put it into draftspace, projectspace, or articlespace. The first is very different than the latter three. Then they relinquish all rights to it. Then it can "be edited by anyone". Such was not the case before that happened. You're treating OWN as if it's a 100% zero sum game, and it's not. There are nuances to it. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:22, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Neither "Userspace drafts can not be edited by anyone" nor "Userspace drafts can only be edited by the editor in whose userspace they are located" are implied by the Before: version; neither are they implied by any policy. "Normal practice" is not congruent to "only permitted practice". Userspace may be different to draftspace, proyectspace or main space, but it is not different in the manner or to the extent stated in the After: version. This is not a clarification, but a change in meaning. Rotary Engine ^talk 21:04, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

@Rotary Engine: you have said that before, but I have not said what you say there. Don't put words in my mouth, especially when that is not what I believe. Those are absolutes, and I allow for many exceptions. I am talking about usual practice, which has exceptions, as I describe above. There is no absolute "not", "only", or "never". Those are your words, so start over in your evaluation of what you think I believe.

Let's try another angle here. Let's hear what you think is normal practice, and I've been here since 2003. I'm no newbie. I know how things work here. (We already know that, according to the quote below, a draft article in the "draft namespace" can "be edited by anyone" and even "later moved to the main encyclopedia" by anyone.) But we are talking about userspace, not draftspace. Who normally edits personal userspace drafts and essays?

"Articles in the Wikipedia:Draft namespace can be edited and moved into the main encyclopedia by anyone. So you can create the draft in your personal userspace, move to the draft namespace to be edited by anyone, and later moved to the main encyclopedia."

That explanation is placed in the section about "userspace drafts" as an instruction for how to get your draft published. It tells you that you can move it to draftspace and later to the encyclopedia. (Experienced editors are allowed to move it directly to the encyclopedia.) It also says what can happen on the way, and it wouldn't say it can "be edited by anyone" if that had already been happening in your personal userspace, unless with your permission. It means that as soon as the draft leaves your userspace and enters draftspace, it can "be edited by anyone".

Now who usually creates/edits personal essays and drafts in personal userspace? (Hint, the answer is in the beginning of the second sentence.) -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:28, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

The After: version of the text, with extraneities elided for clarity, is: Unlike userspace drafts, draft articles ... can be edited ... by anyone. If Draft: space articles, which can be edited by anyone, are unlike User: space drafts in that regard, this text implies that Userspace drafts can not be edited by anyone.

That is a plain English reading of that text; not words that I am putting in anyone's mouth.

There are a range of circumstances under which User: space drafts can, should and must be edited by anyone. That they are usually not does not imply they cannot be. Rotary Engine ^talk 02:25, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I'll bite, even though I don't believe the "not" is an absolute (as you and I both believe, there are circumstances when others can edit that space), but yes, that is the meaning of the second sentence, not just my addition at the beginning, so my clarification does not change the meaning.

You write:

The After: version of the text, with extraneities elided for clarity, is: Unlike userspace drafts, draft articles ... can be edited ... by anyone. If Draft: space articles, which can be edited by anyone, are unlike User: space drafts in that regard, this text implies that Userspace drafts can not be edited by anyone.

My "extraneity" ("Unlike userspace drafts...") is based on "be edited by anyone" from the second sentence, which refers only to "the draft namespace". I then made that explicit at the beginning of the first sentence with "Unlike userspace drafts..." It all hangs together. I haven't added anything that changes normal practice, just made explicit what's in the second paragraph.

To make it really clear, one could just say it even more clearly (than my edit did) in these two sentences:

1. Article drafts and essays in userspace should not normally be edited or moved to draft-, project-, or articlespace by other editors, but there are special circumstances where it is allowed.
2. Article drafts and essays in draft-, project-, or articlespace can be edited and moved by anyone, unlike the limitations for those in userspace.

That is much clearer than the current wording, and has no impact on the meaning and application of OWN. It does not change normal practice or any policy. Those are the differences between drafts and essays in userspace and draftspace that are relevant to mention in this discussion.

OWN still never mentions drafts.

Since you didn't answer my question above ("Who usually creates/edits personal essays and drafts in personal userspace?"), I will. The answer (bolded) is in the beginning of the second sentence: "So you can create the draft in your personal userspace, move it..." You can, not someone else. Others should respect "the draft in your personal userspace". We both recognize this is not 100% ownership, so OWN is unaffected by this clarification. There are situations where others may make certain edits, but normally we show courtesy and discretion and leave other's work alone most of the time. There has to be a very good reason for us to edit another editor's work. Do you not agree this is the normal practice? That's what I have observed in all my years here.

I totally agree with your last two sentences. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 03:19, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Adding that an explanation of how to get a draft from User: space to Mainspace does not need to describe who can or cannot edit User: space. The Before: version has advantages of brevity, succinctness and silence. Rotary Engine ^talk 02:35, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Here are the two versions for examination. The parallism makes it easier to understand, and there are no implications. Everything is explicit and easy to understand.

Before:

Articles in the Wikipedia:Draft namespace can be edited and moved into the main encyclopedia by anyone.

So you can create the draft in your personal userspace, move to the draft namespace to be edited by anyone, and later moved to the main encyclopedia.

After:

Article drafts and essays in userspace should not normally be edited or moved to draft-, project-, or articlespace by other editors, but there are special circumstances where it is allowed.

Article drafts and essays in draft-, project-, or articlespace can be edited and moved by anyone, unlike the limitations for those in userspace.

This has no effect on OWN and does not change any policies or normal practice. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 05:21, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Grammar improvements and missing words

My original edits included some edits that really are "only grammar improvements" and adding of missing words. It really reads better with my changes. Unfortunately, they also got deleted. Can't we restore them? Here are those changes:

Before:

• In an RfC regarding the applicability of Wikipedia:Notability to drafts within the userspace and draftspace, it was determined that community consensus amounted to "notability guidelines do not apply to userspace and draftspace drafts."
• Articles in the Wikipedia:Draft namespace can be edited and moved into the main encyclopedia by anyone. So you can create the draft in your personal userspace, move to the draft namespace to be edited by anyone, and later moved to the main encyclopedia.

After:

• In an RfC regarding the applicability of Wikipedia:Notability to drafts within the userspace and draftspace, community consensus determined that "notability guidelines do not apply to userspace and draftspace drafts."
• Draft articles in the Wikipedia:Draft namespace can be edited and moved into the main encyclopedia by anyone. So you can create the draft in your personal userspace, move it to the draft namespace to be edited by anyone, and later move it to the main encyclopedia.

Doesn't that last version read better? Please allow it to be restored. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:06, 15 October 2024 (UTC)