Category talk:Ukrainian murder victims

This category was nominated for renaming on 24 October 2021. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

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Death

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Crime and Criminal Biography

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Ukraine

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Is this category needed?

I don't see why we need this category. In history there were millions of murdered Ukrainians. Hundreds, if not thousands of them are notable enough for a Wikipedia. What is the purpose to dump them all in the cat by the fact that they were all murdered. Correct me if I am wrong, but the very purpose of the categories is for people who might be interested in a general topic to find the articles they might want to read. I can see someone interested in Ukrainian literature going to the Category:Ukrainian writers to see what articles are there to read, edit or missing (to write), someone interested in Ukrainian politics would for the same reason go to Category:Ukrainian politicians, someone interested in Ukrainian fine art would go to Category:Ukrainian artists and so on. Why would anyone go to category:Ukrainian murder victims? Same applies to Category:Russian murder victims. What do other think? --Irpen 20:05, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is a category Category:Murder victims by nationality. Among them many nationalities. If you manage to convince all of them to remove their subcategories - then we can remove Ukrainian as well.--Bryndza 20:51, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Look, if others do stupid stuff we don't have to repeat after them. Do you have any good reasons to articulate on why we need this cat? I explained why we don't and I am open to other ideas. I am more conserned about the topics I care for. If others do something, I can't get involved into everything. Now, the question remains, why do we need the cat? And a subquestion, who will define which of the killings are murders. I guess, executions are often not murders. Who will designate? Proper terms is important: not every killing is right to call "murder", not every mass murder is right to call "massacre" and/or "Genocide". This is the terminology that is very prone to POV disagreement. But that's secondary. What is the use of the cat is more importan. Anyone? --Irpen 21:02, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

However, this generally accepted in Wikipedia. Practically all murder victims added in determined to categories. See Igor Talkov, John Lennon, Anne Frank, Tupac Shakur, Aleksandr Pushkin -- Yakudza 22:46, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Still, the question is what's the use of it. Please reread what I said above? Also, within your short list we already have a problem. Was Pushkin murdered? I would say that duel is not a murder. Others think differently. Also, Pushkin is in cat:Murdered writers, not "Murdered Russians". Murdered writers is rather limited cat which makes it interesting unlike murdered Russians. And, finally, Gongadze was surely murdered and cat:"murdered journalists", like murdered writers, makes sense because it may be useful for research of someinfo. In search of what info would anyone ever click on the cat "Murdered Ukrainians"? What is the chanse to get this category anywhere close to be complrehensive? IMO, this is just clutter. --Irpen 23:48, 30 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The way I use this category - I open it every morning, click on every name in it and read carefully who killed those Ukrainians. And I see that they were killed by Russian, Jews, Poles. I hate all these murderers more and more. Plus this adds to my already encyclopedic knowledge on crimes committed by Russia. Of course, other users may find other ways to use the information - for example to count how many nasty Ukrainian nationalists were killed and estimate how many more are left. But do not bother Irpen - you "can't get involved into everything", so please relax and go and exercise in your eloquence somewhere else.--Bryndza 03:19, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bryndza, there is no need to get condenscending. I did not offend neither you (at least this wasn't my intention) nor the memory of those people.

Now, to the issue: I checked the articles. First, it contained cossacks killed in combat as well as a journalist killed in Iraq. The latter is very tragic but it was not a murder, which is according to a dictionary "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought". To be killed in a war is not the same as being murdered.

This gets us to the Cossack leaders executed by Poland and Ukrainian people executed by the Soviets. While a lawful execution is certainly not a murder, the execution by the criminal state (like all people killed in the Great Purge or in Babi Yar), may concievably qualify to be called murder. But there is a better cat for one group already: Category:Victims of Soviet repressions. Why not use it? Or create a subcat:Ukrainian victims of Soviet repression if we find it necessary. The latter idea has its pros and cons, but at least it makes more sense than putting those killed in Stalin purges and those killed by Polish kings in the same cat. For the latter, we can create a "subcat:Executed Ukrainian Cossack leaders".

Further, Bandera and Petlura were murdered, no doubt. Chornovil was probably murdered too although it is not 100% established while I hope it will with the consequences for those reponsible. We can create a subcat:Murdered Ukrainian politicians. Again, this is meaningful at least. Similarly, "category:Ukrainian victims of Nazism" makes sense as well and this, together with using the "victims of Soviet repressions" would also alleviate the legalistic debate whether it is correct to call an execution by a criminal state a murder.

Just think about it, OK? Good classification helps a lot to better cover Ukrainian topics. Categories like "murdered Ukrainians", "living Ukrainians", or "Ukrainian martyrs" doesn't improve the clasification but only create the clutter and confusion. --Irpen 04:01, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No doubts that those people also belong to subcategories you just named, but I think they also definitely belong to Category:Murder victims by nationality. One can dispute if it is necessary or not. I think it is. And it seems like editors from all nations listed in it also think so. This is just another level of categorization. There are categories that sort by occupation, this one sorts by nationality. If one would like to see all Ukrainians killed independent of their occupation - he will check this one. I find it quite logical. Actualy - many people think so if you see how many nations it contains.

Now about definition of murder. Really, I would not include here Tymish Khmel'nyts'kyy, and anybody else who died in a battle. Execution of captured person (rebels too), killings of polititians, journalist, etc. - they are.--Bryndza 04:34, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]