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August 14

Where was Rochambeau paroled?

Donatien-Marie-Joseph de Vimeur, vicomte de Rochambeau was a prisoner on parole in England after the Surrender of Cap Français. Where was he paroled? I ask as it forms part of the frame for Q's short story "The Monkey-Flower". Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 00:22, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I found one source (Frenchempire.net) that says he was held in Norman Cross Prison. Blueboar (talk) 01:22, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I found this and this which say he was paroled to Moretonhampstead. DuncanHill (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What does it mean to be "childlike" in a religious context?

Here are a couple of examples of what I'm talking about:

In Matthew 18:3 and Luke 18:17, Jesus says "Unless you become as little children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven." and "Whoever doesn't receive the kingdom of heaven as a little child shall not enter." respectively.
To quote a Wikipedia article, "Kali likes devotees who have childlike qualities in them."

One take I could run with is that being "as a little child" means being humble and approaching a holy figure with what some would call a beginner's mind. (i.e. with curiosity and open-mindedness, and without arrogance or prejudice) After all, in Matthew 18:4, Jesus continues; "Therefore, whoever humbles themselves as this little child, the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." On the other hand, the Kali article also says "To be a child of Kāli, Rāmprasād asserts, is to be denied of earthly delights and pleasures. Kāli is said to refrain from giving that which is expected. To the devotee, it is perhaps her very refusal to do so that enables her devotees to reflect on dimensions of themselves and of reality that go beyond the material world."

The part about denying oneself earthly delights reminds me of the following Gospel passages:

"If you come up to me, you should deny yourself, take your cross and follow after me. Whoever finds their own life shall lose it, whoever loses their own life for my sake shall find it. For what should one give in exchange for their life? For what would one profit if they gain the world, but forfeit their life? What should one give in exchange for their life?" — Mark 8:34-36, Matthew 16:24-26, Luke 9:23-25
"Whoever doesn't take their cross and follow after me is unworthy of me." — Matthew 10:38, Luke 14:27
"Whoever doesn't renounce everything they have can't be my disciple." — Luke 14:33
"Whoever loves their life shall lose it. Whoever hates their life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal." — John 12:25

Asides from Christianity and Hinduism, are there any other religions or belief systems where divine figures are said to favor believers who are childlike? – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 20:10, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Realistically, the language of Christianity is frequently and actively debated. It is based on multiple translations of ancient texts, often done with political goals. We are now largely stuck with pseudo-Shakespearean language, such as "Unless you become as little children". Nobody talks like that outside religion, so nobody can say precisely what it means. Some pastors and ministers will claim to know. It's up to you who you choose to believe. HiLo48 (talk) 01:58, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It sounds like an encouragement to be mindless. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:52, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Most little children know their own minds a lot better than most adults know theirs, in my experience. My favourite example is a toddler trying to stand up and walk. After the first 50 unsuccessful attempts, do they go "Looks like it's never gonna happen, so I may as well just give up"? Hardly. That's adult thinking, not child thinking. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:20, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You ask two questions with different answers ("what does it mean" and "which religions say this"), and while I can't easily answer the second, I can provide resources for the first. Go to Matthew 18 or Luke 18 from the "Christian Classics Ethereal Library", which hosts a great number of resources, including several commentary series. In the page's upper right, just below the gear icon, is a dropdown (every time I load the site, the label is different) offering several options, including "Commentaries". Click this, and you'll be prompted to pick several Protestant commentaries that have sought to explain Christ's meaning in this passage. Meanwhile, there are plenty of recent translations with recent English, e.g. the HCSB says "unless you are converted and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven". Nyttend (talk) 07:35, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Speculation: It seems to me that referring to children in this context implies that children "believe" in absolute and ideal properties:

Omnipotence, omniscience, perfection, truth, justice, protection, ...

Adults do not assume that a random human - a spouse, a neighbour, a political candidate - possesses any of these characteristics. An adult person probably must retreat to some infantile idealism to perceive a God in all this mess. A tall order and, on occasion, I envy those who can. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 16:25, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I feel that the word you are all looking for is 'innocence', and all that entails. MinorProphet (talk) 13:17, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

August 19

Jean Bottéro on Ebla

Where did Bottéro write on the Eblaite Ya? "Religion in Ancient Mesopotamia" and "Ancestor of the West" gave no immediate ctrl-f results. Temerarius (talk) 02:35, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ebla–biblical controversy suggests you might be able to find something in Mesopotamia: Writing, Reasoning, and the Gods (1995). GalacticShoe (talk) 04:41, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

August 21

Appealing jury verdict before sentencing not allowed?

[1] Trump was convicted in NY a month or two ago, with sentencing scheduled for September 18. He is trying to get sentencing delayed til after the Nov. election, saying he plans to appeal as soon as sentencing is handed down.

Question: does something stop him from appealing before there is a sentence? Appeals are about arguing that the trial court made mistakes amirite? And those would have been made during the trial itself, regardless of the sentence. Trump still has a request pending to have the trial court throw out the charges on immunity grounds, but if that happens, he could drop his appeal.

IANAL, not seeking advice, Trump can hire his own lawyers bla bla bla. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:C030 (talk) 22:27, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The particulars could depend on the laws of New York state. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:01, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In general, a final judgment is required before a party can bring an appeal. There are exceptions, under which a party can bring an interlocutory appeal. But those are limited exceptions for certain kinds of appeals. To appeal a case as a whole, Trump needs a final judgment, and for a criminal case finding guilt, a sentence is required for finality. John M Baker (talk) 23:25, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

August 22

1967, Can this criminal incidence corroborated?

Question is:How far incidences of 1967 can be corroborated through news in then news media or RS books specially about any alleged misbehavior against women?

Naxalbari uprising: 1967 an ultra left (communist) violent farmer/ tribal agitation was going on in West Bengal state, India.

1969 April 6, A scheduled musical night in Kolkata (Draft) (earlier spelling Calcutta) went haywire with ensued violence that allegedly included en masse misbehavior against women. The violence and the controversy was further politicized.

An investigative journalist's report that I got translated from a Wikipedian about 1969 April 6, incidence goes as below.

.. According to weekly Manus माणस dated 17th May; a session of robbing, firing, rapes, murders etc completed with the farmer riots in 1967. The offenders were arrested. Fortunate for them, Jyoti Basu became Deputy Chief Minister and Home Minister in 1969 and released all these men. These men were the organizers of the 6th April event.^[1] ..

The investigative journalist probably is speaking of the 1967 Naxalbari uprising. In cases of crime corroborating investigative report remains difficult and 1967 - 1969 is too old story. But still How far incidences of 1967 can be corroborated through news in then news media or RS books specially about any alleged misbehavior against women? Bookku (talk) 13:25, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can think of no other way of doing so other than to research deeply all the available records from the era dealing the subject and see what emerges. A considerable task, perhaps suited to someone who intends to write a book on the topic.

Given the nature of the events, it is likely that much was not published in newspapers (which have no brief to be comprehensive and which don't like to say what people don't want to read), or stated publicly by officials (who may have similar self-interested scruples), so official reports, perhaps not published at the time, may have more. In the UK and other countries there is the Thirty year rule, which annually causes the release of previously sequestered documents that journalists and others can study. Is there a similar procedure in India? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.209.45 (talk) 16:08, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your inputs. As you say the topic would necessitates some deep dive.

As such I suppose Naxalbari uprising (violent communism) is reasonably reported and academically studied topic.

For example " 'The Goondas' Towards the reconstruction of Calcutta Underworld" by Das Suranjan, Ray Jayanta K. (Department of History University of Calcutta) 1996, explains linkages and distinguishing factors between common criminality and political violence. Das and Ray seem to have taken note of crime of some criminals mentioned by above said investigative journalist, same time conspicuously silent about 1969 criminal incidence.

Another problem for that era is most sources though of Indian origin are in Western and US libraries and not available on Wikipedia library or google books. Deep dive seem to need some support from who have physical access to those libraries too. Bookku (talk) 05:08, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Bookku. I'm not sure exactly what is your question. What would be the linkage between Naxalbari uprising and the April 6 event? Surely none, and what is stated from Manoos would have been a fringe view at the time. --Soman (talk) 12:04, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since the Manoos's investigative journalist seems to have traveled all the way from Maharashtra to Kolkata specially to investigate specific April 6 incidence.

I did not write off totally since was not sure that the journalist specially traveling long distance in 1969 would have done false reporting for the sake of it. We do not know if his sources so I thought better to get confirm.

On side note one of the later, the same year, a column of The frontier complains selective reporting of media about Rabindra Sarobar stadium incidence but does not report on similar incidence Rabindra Rangshala Delhi same or previous year. When I searched for Rabindra Rangshala Delhi haven't got much news sources, but curiously a 2019 fiction novel mentioning some incidence to have happened at Rabindra Rangshala Delhi in those times. (Of course there is no question of giving credence to any descriptions in any novel)

Cross checking and confirming things for encyclopedia is challenging. I find this noticeboard is very helpful though. Bookku (talk) 12:18, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Majgoankar, Shrikant, ed. (17 May 1969). "शापित द्रौपदी" (PDF) (in Marathi). No. 51 (51 ed.). Rajhans Prakashan Maharashtra India. p. 14. Retrieved 23 December 2021.

August 25

Are these the same people?

Is Azadeh (Shahnameh) the same person as Āzādvar-e Changi?

The former I'm not familiar with, but the latter is usually mentioned as the handful of known Sassanian musicians: Āzādvar-e Changi, Bamshad, Nagisa (Nakisa), Ramtin, Sarkash (also Sargis or Sarkas) and Barbad. I know Āzādvar-e Changi's name is given as simply Azad sometimes, but I'm not exactly sure who they are. It would not be too suprising if they were the same, since Nagisa and Barbad, for instance, are only really known from colorful depictions in later literature—more focused on the story than their musical importance/history, which seems to be the case for Azadeh (Shahnameh). Aza24 (talk) 00:54, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to Azadeh (Shahnameh), she was associated in story with Bahram-e Gur aka Bahram V (who lived 400–438), while according to Nagisa (harpist), Āzādvar-e Changi aka Āzād seved in the court of Khosrow II (ca. 570–628), so assuming these facts are accurate the two cannot have been the same person as they lived nearly 200 years apart.

However, since Shahnameh was written around 1000, about 400–600 years after the two allegedly lived (if they really existed at all), and is openly based partly on myths and legends, its reliability as to dates and identities is presumably questionable.

I am reminded of the popular legend of the Trojan war refugee Aeneas and his famous love affair with the Carthaginian Queen Dido, which ignores the fact that plausible dates for the two place their lives around 400 years apart. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.209.45 (talk) 06:05, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

August 26

Kish 1924

I'm having trouble finding "Kish, 1924, 799 Obv. 1 16." The reference found in S Langdon's Babylonian Menologies, page 111. I tried "Report on the excavation of the "A" Cemetary at Kish, Mesopotamia" by Ernest Mackay 1925-1931, where the page numbers don't go that high. Temerarius (talk) 16:45, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If I follow you, you're thinking that that's a page reference, but it's actually a reference to an archaeological find from Kish excavated (or perhaps catalogued) in 1924. In this paper by S. Langdon, we read on page 70 that "Kish 1924-799 (excavated by the writer) is the upper right corner of Tablet XV of HURRA = hubullu", whatever that means. "Obv.", the same paper makes clear, stands for "Obverse". There's a diagram of that tablet on page 71. --Antiquary (talk) 20:34, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Great! Thanks. The detail I was seeking was on page 74. I wish archive.org wouldn't restrict download of these old papers that are in the public domain now. https://archive.org/download/fieldmuseumoxfor28fiel/fieldmuseumoxfor28fiel.pdf Here's another by Langdon on Kish with some interesting finds. The early pictographic script has comic book-like panel divisions, like the undeciphered "bonus" Deir Alla inscriptions. There's an ancient solid copper frog, which I don't think I've ever seen before. And by ovens, they've got cup holders like Macalister's Gezer's High place. Different from cup and ring marks.

Temerarius (talk) 01:39, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

dig: Amenmope's tomb

Who dug up the place where Amenemope (pharaoh)'s masks were found? Is the publication available online? Temerarius (talk) 20:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From the Section Burial in the article you link, "His undisturbed tomb was rediscovered by French Egyptologists Pierre Montet and Georges Goyon in April 1940, just a month before the Nazi invasion of France. Montet had to stop his excavation until the end of World War II, then resumed it in 1946 and later published his findings in 1958. . . . On the mummy were found two gilt funerary masks, two pectorals, necklaces, bracelets, rings and a cloisonné collar. Four of these items bore the name of Psusennes I.[18][19] The funerary masks depict the king as young, although Goyon stated that at the moment of discovery the masks had an expression of suffering and pleading, later softened after restoration.[18] The mummy and funerary goods are now in Cairo Museum."

The Article's References cross reference to its Bibliography, which details various volumes, including Goyon's 1987 La Découverte des trésors de Tanis. Perséa. ISBN 2-906427-01-2, though not Montet's 1958 publications. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.209.45 (talk) 00:16, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That "softened after restoration" comment is quite suspect, don't you agree? Did Goyon (or Montet) ever fall under rumors of fakery?

Temerarius (talk) 02:18, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

August 27

What the Maid Saw and The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock

Years ago I read about the English translation of Yasutaka Tsutsui's novel What the Maid Saw. The translation was notorious because at one point, there is a quotation from T. S. Eliot's poem "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock", but the translator seemingly did not recognize the quotation and instead translated Tsutsui's Japanese translation back into English. Eliot's original text read as follows:

I grow old ... I grow old...

I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?

I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.

I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.

I do not think that they will sing to me.

But the English translation of the novel rendered the text as:

The years are taking their toll.

It’s time to roll up the cuffs of my pants—

Time to part my hair from the back—

Time to eat peaches.

I put on my white flannel pants and walked on the beach.

I heard mermaids singing to each other—

Mermaids who would never sing out to me.

However, I seem to recall reading later that this (i.e. the English translator not recognizing the poem and translating it on his own) was an urban legend. And, indeed, I can hardly find any references to this online. One of the few I can find (https://aclanthology.org/1997.mtsummit-workshop.6.pdf) cites it to "a 'clipping' (undated) from the New Yorker", that is, one of the "snippets containing amusing errors, unintended meanings or badly mixed metaphors ... used as filler items, accompanied by a witty retort", which doesn't seem to be a particularly reliable source.

So my question is: Did the English translation of What the Maid Saw actually include the mistranslated quote from "Prufrock", and if so, was there any explanation other than the translator not recognizing the poem? -- Metropolitan90 (talk) 07:32, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Urban legend, I think. According to the New Yorker clipping quoted in the Helmreich article you link to, the translator, Adam Kabat, renders Tsutsui's Japanese as "Katsumi had come across the image of the peach in a poem by an American poet. The years are taking their toll [etc.]". But in this 2011 reprint of the original 1990 Kabat translation we have something very different:

Katsumi had come across the image of the peach in a bit of verse by an American poet.

The poem also used images of mermaids, the beach and a necktie, but it was the symbolic line about eating peaches that had left the most vivid impression on Katsumi...

There is no quotation from the poem there. I wondered whether the 2011 reprint might have corrected this passage from the 1990 original, but only a 1990 copyright date is given for it, so seemingly not.

Incidentally, we discussed double translations here 13 years ago. --Antiquary (talk) 09:12, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The 1990 edition is available on Archive.org. It does have the "The years are taking their toll..." version on page 82. See here (registration required). DuncanHill (talk) 10:19, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I rather suspect the hand of Valerie Eliot in the removal. DuncanHill (talk) 10:22, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Whiter than white cocaine" (or similar) British soldiers song of WW1

In Graves book "Goodbye to all that" he mentions a song that soldiers sang, I translate it back to English, it's "Whiter than white cocaine", "Brighter than white cocaine" or something similar.

Song lyrics/info will; be appreciated. 2A0D:6FC0:8EF:6000:983C:9409:335E:6247 (talk) 17:55, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably "Oh wash me in the water that you washed the Colonel's daughter, and I shall be whiter than the whitewash on the wall" Sung in "Oh! What a Lovely War" here. DuncanHill (talk) 19:49, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Graves remembered the words slightly differently: "Whiter than the milky cokernuts" etc. Lyrics here. --Antiquary (talk) 19:58, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A contemporary (1917) record of the lyrics and music is here, p. 91. --Antiquary (talk) 20:08, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And a few more historical details in Max Arthur's When This Bloody War Is Over, here, p. 69. --Antiquary (talk) 20:37, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is based on the hymn "Blessed be the fountain of blood" which has the refrain "Whiter than the snow / Whiter than the snow / Wash me in the blood of the Lamb / And I shall be whiter than snow". DuncanHill (talk) 19:53, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A YouTube clip of the original hymn is here. Alansplodge (talk) 14:38, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Robert Graves says, in his native English, "to the tune of the Salvation Army tune of 'Whiter than the snow'" (I believe this is a variation of Blessed be the Fountain) and gives the key line as "whiter than the milky cokernuts". See page 92 of the Penguin edition at Archive.org (registration required). DuncanHill (talk) 20:01, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am curious to know, 2A0D, which language you've found Graves's book translated into. The translator seems to have misunderstood "cokernuts" rather badly. --Antiquary (talk) 20:50, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hebrew 🤣2A0D:6FC0:8EF:6000:983C:9409:335E:6247 (talk) 21:36, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Coco/coca confusion? DuncanHill (talk) 20:54, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is a quite bad translation accidant. 2A0D:6FC0:8EF:6000:983C:9409:335E:6247 (talk) 21:51, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Admittedly, "cokernuts" is a non-standard phonetic representation of the way Graves's men pronounced the word "coconuts", so the translator couldn't have got much help from any dictionary. And few translators get paid enough to be able to spend much time solving such problems. --Antiquary (talk) 23:02, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that ordinary WW1 trench soldiers without a medical background would have been familiar with cocaine in a white powder form anyway. Burroughs, Wellcome & Co. did manufacture and market (legal) "Forced March" tablets to soldiers, which apparently contained significant cocaine. A song which actually does mention cocaine is I Get a Kick Out of You (original lyrics)... AnonMoos (talk) 21:42, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Prince Radziwill, a Polish officer with the Heavy Brigade

According to our article The Charge of the Light Brigade (1968 film), Laurence Harvey "was given the role of Prince Radziwill, a Polish officer with the Heavy Brigade, but his part was edited out of the completed film". Now, Princes Radziwill were ten-a-penny at the time, but was there actually one in the Heavy Brigade at the time of the Crimean War? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 21:34, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Prince Radziwill is mentioned here as serving with the Russians: "There is no doubt that Cardigan overran the Russian battery as he was recognized there by Prince Radziwill whom he had know before the war." There is also an unreliable forum post which claims that Radziwill ordered that Cardigan be taken alive. Clarityfiend (talk) 12:06, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In our article, James Brudenell, 7th Earl of Cardigan#Crimean War, he is identified as Leon Hieronim Radziwiłł (Polish article), with several references. The Polish article says that he was in a Russian Guard Hussar regiment, maybe His Majesty's Hussar Life Guards Regiment, so not even in the Russian Heavy Brigade (hussars are light cavalry). Alansplodge (talk) 14:29, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More details at Talk:James Brudenell, 7th Earl of Cardigan#Prince Radziwill. According to that, he was the major-general commanding the Russian Uhlan division (also light cavalry). Alansplodge (talk) 14:57, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

August 28

[1] Majgoankar, Shrikant, ed. (17 May 1969). "शापित द्रौपदी" (PDF) (in Marathi). No. 51 (51 ed.). Rajhans Prakashan Maharashtra India. p. 14. Retrieved 23 December 2021.

[1]