Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions

The following are a list of arguments that can commonly be seen in deletion debates for templates, images, categories, stub types, redirects and especially articles which should generally be avoided, or at least, supplemented with some more arguments. The reason they should be avoided is because they are not based upon the issues listed at Wikipedia:Deletion policy, but are rather arguments based from side issues that are not relevant to the issue of whether or not a page on Wikipedia should be deleted. When taking part in deletion discussions, then, it is best to base arguments on the policies of neutral point of view, no original research, verifiability, biographies of living people and what Wikipedia is not, or on Wikipedia guidelines.

As this essay tries to stimulate people to use sound arguments in deletion discussions, it is important to realize that countering the keep or delete arguments of other people by simply referring them to this essay is not encouraged (see also the section Just a policy or guideline below). Furthermore, remember that a reason which arguably could be classified as an "argument to avoid", can still have some valid points in it. For example, if a person argues for why an article is WP:INTERESTING, and the arguments for "interesting" are also reasonable arguments for "encyclopedic", it is wrong to summarily dismiss that argument just because WP:INTERESTING is a section in this essay.

See also: Wikipedia:Don't overuse shortcuts to policy and guidelines to win your argument

Arguments without arguments

Just a vote

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Example:

• Keep VoteyMcVoter 01:01, 1 January 2001 (UTC)

This is not an argument for deletion at all, it's a vote. As Wikipedia:Articles for deletion states, "The debate is not a vote; please make recommendations on the course of action to be taken, sustained by arguments" and the same applies to all deletion debates. Any statement that just consists of "Keep" or "Delete" with a signature can easily be dismissed by the admin making the final decision (although in practice it rarely is), and changing "Keep" to "Strong keep" will not make it any more relevant. Try to present persuasive reasons in line with policy or consensus as to why the article/template/category/whatever should be kept/deleted, and try to make sure it is an argument based on the right reasons.

Per nominator

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Example:

• Delete per nom. Trustfull 04:04, 4 April 2004 (UTC)
  

It is important to keep in mind that every listing of an article for deletion is not a vote, but rather a discussion. That means that if several people already have showed support for the nominator, adding nothing but a statement in support of the nominator may not contribute significantly to the conclusion made by the closing administrator. That said, nominations vary considerably. In instances where the nomination includes a well-formulated argument, is extensive in its reasoning and clearly addresses the major issues, expressing simple support per nom may be sufficient. Where a nomination has been effectively addressed by counter-arguments in the discussion, however, it may be useful to explain how you justify your support in your own words and, where possible, marshaling your own evidence. Also, this response should not be used to hide a WP:IDONTLIKEIT position--stating your true position in your own words will assure others that you are not engaging in this deceptive practice.

Pointing at policy

Just a policy or guideline

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Example:

• Keep Meets WP:NOR –Policylover 01:01, 1 January 2001 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:N, WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:RS, etc. –Pilingiton 01:01, 1 January 2001 (UTC)

While this gives editors a clue as to what your reason is, it does not explain any specifics. This does not actually tell us whether the policy is being violated or not. This can be avoided by quoting the specific parts of policy that an article needs to meet, and why you think it succeeds/fails to meet them. Also, keep in mind that articles can often be improved, and may not need to be deleted at all, if the specific problems can be identified and corrected.

As an analogy, imagine that your own username got blocked, with the reason being a vague wave at policy, "Violates WP:USERNAME", giving no indication of which specific rule it broke. You might have no idea of what to change, of how to make it acceptable. You would want more detail than that. Likewise, please give others your detailed reasons for supporting or objecting to their work, so others need not try to read your mind.

Note that it is harder to explain why an article does not meet a policy or guideline, as that would be similar to proving a negative. Still, rather than merely writing "Does not meet Wikipedia:Verifiability", consider writing a more detailed summary, e.g. "Does not meet Wikipedia:Verifiability - no sources cited or could be found with a Google search on: 'search term'" or "Does not meet Wikipedia:Verifiability - only sources cited are blogs and chat forum posts." It is often possible to pinpoint specific violations. For instance, an article that includes a copyright notice goes against WP:COPYRIGHT.

Naturally, citing this essay just by one of its many shortcuts (e.g. WP:ILIKEIT or WP:IDONTLIKEIT), without further explanation, is similarly ill advised, for the reasons explained above.

Just unencyclopedic

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Example:

• Delete as unencyclopedic. –Cyclops 06:26, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

As the page Wikipedia:Wikipedia is an encyclopedia shows, being "unencyclopedic" is an umbrella term covering all possible problems that an article may have that make it a candidate for deletion. In other words, the above recommendation by user Cyclops is so vague, it gives no information on why the article should be deleted. It is better to cite a specific policy that the article fails, or at least make an argument as to why it is unencyclopedic.

As an analogy, this is like claiming that an article is "worth deleting" or "worth keeping". Saying why is much more more helpful.

Just not notable

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

• Examples:
• Delete as non-notable. –NotableGuru 16:25, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
• Keep It is clearly notable. –NNotabilityDiviner 01:21, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Much like just a policy or guideline, simply stating that the subject of an article is not notable does not provide reasoning as to why the subject may not be notable. Therefore, try to explain to other editors why the subject of an article may not be notable. Instead of saying, "Non-notable," consider using "No reliable sources found to establish notability," or "The sources are not independent, and so cannot establish that the subject passes our standards on notability". Providing specific reasons why the subject may not be notable gives other editors an opportunity to supply sources that establish or confirm the subject's notability. Consider also mentioning where or how you searched to try and find evidence to support your position, in case you have been performing a very narrow search without realising.

The mirror of "Just not notable" is the assertion that something is notable, but fails to provide an explanation or source for the claim of notability. Notability requires an explanation so that other editors may be able to verify the claim as well as seek sources. An explanation is also helpful in deciding whether or not the subject of an article meets existing policies and guidelines that may cover the subject.

That's only a guideline or essay

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Examples:

• Keep or Delete WP:EXAMPLE is an essay, not policy. DissentingView 18:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
• Keep or Delete WP:XYZ is only a guideline. GuidelinesNoGood 18:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a system of laws. Deletion processes are discussions, not votes, and we encourage people to put forward their opinions. Sometimes, they will find an existing project page which sums up their reasoning already, and rather than reinventing the wheel they will link to it (with a suitable explanation of why it applies). If someone links to an essay or guideline, they are not suggesting "WP:EXAMPLE says we should do this", but rather "I believe we should do this, WP:EXAMPLE explains the reasons why".

Essays, in general, serve to summarize a position, opinion or argument. Frequently, this is done with reference to policies and guidelines, so to glibly brand them as "only an essay" may be misleading. Some may also consider it insulting, as it essentially suggests that their opinion (as well as those of the people who originally wrote the page) is invalid when it may not be.

Guidelines do indeed have exceptions; however, it is unhelpful to suggest "WP:EXAMPLE is only a guideline, we do not have to follow it". We have policies which tell us what to do, and guidelines to help us with how to do it. Rather than using a page's "guideline" designation as an excuse to make an exception, suggest reasons why an exception should be made.

There are many reasons why some arguments presented at deletion debates are invalid, based around the substance of the argument or the logic employed in reaching it. "The page you linked to is an essay" is not one of them.

Similarly, while precedents as defined at WP:OUTCOMES are not actual policy, by virtue of the fact that a precedent exists you should provide an actual reason why the case at hand should be treated as an exception to it, rather than ignoring or dismissing it solely on the basis that it isn't a binding policy.

Now, it does happen that someone will be a proponent of following some notability guideline without any exception. Guidelines do explicitly say that there will be common sense exceptions to them. In those cases, it is fair to point out that it is not necessary to follow the guidelines 100% of the time if there is a good reason to break them. But you should try to make a reasonable argument for why this particular case is one of those exceptions. Guidelines are usually followed for good reasons, so there should be a good reason for breaking it.

Personal point of view

I like it

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Example:

• Keep The Flailing Hairnets are the best rock band in the world right now. –Superbestfan 02:02, 2 February 2002 (UTC)

There are a lot of variations to this line of argument but they generally amount to the same thing, the person arguing really, really likes the subject of the article (or other page) being nominated for deletion and so does not want to see it deleted. Often the fact that the subject is really great at what they do is offered as a reason for not deleting. The problem with this line of reasoning is that how good, say, a band's music sounds is a very subjective statement; while you may love a band with all of your heart, someone else may hate them with just as much passion. More importantly, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and encyclopedias bring knowledge created by others into one place, they do not create new knowledge (see Wikipedia:No original research). In other words, a band or actor or computer game may well be the greatest example of what they do in the history of everything, but if no other reliable sources have written about them, they cannot be included. Maybe they will be written about in the future, but Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, and articles can only be added when the subjects have been written about elsewhere. If your favourite band/game/sports team/webcomic/whatever really is that great it should happen sooner or later, though, so just be patient.

I don't like it

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Examples:

• Delete as cruft. –Cruftbane 03:03, 3 March 2003 (UTC)
• Delete - we don't need this here. –Judgmental 03:03, 3 March 2003 (UTC)
• Delete - I don't like it. IDontLikeIt 03:03, 3 March 2003 (UTC)
• Delete - It's annoying. IAmAnnoyed 03:03, 3 March 2003 (UTC)

Wikipedia editors are a pretty diverse bunch and as such pretty much everything is hated by some editor somewhere. Hating a music style is no reason to argue that an article on a band who play that style of music (providing they meet the relevant verifiability and source criteria) should be deleted, as music tastes are incredibly subjective and one person's dirge is another person's symphony. The same applies to any issue of personal preference; some editors hate trivia, but what constitutes trivia is a subjective opinion and as things stand there is no concrete policy setting down what is and is not trivial, nor is there a policy stating that trivia should be deleted. Other editors hate fair use images and text, but again, unless a policy is adopted that prohibits fair use material on Wikipedia, the fact that an image is fair use, or an article contains a lot of fair use media, is not grounds for deletion provided fair use criteria are met.

Arguments that the nature of the subject is unencyclopedic (for example individual songs or episodes of a TV show) should also be avoided in the absence of clear policies or guidelines against articles on such subjects.

Perhaps the most common example of this kind of argument is the oft-used argument that articles/categories/whatever should be deleted as cruft. While the "cruft" label is often used for any or all things of perceived minor interest, it is worth considering carefully whether or not so-called "cruft" has potential. Some may see it as an embarrassment if someone's garage band later enjoy international success, though we cannot yet know this, hence such an article would have little potential.

Please note that while declaring something to be "cruft" in itself is not a rational argument for deletion, actual cruft — vast amounts of specific information on topics of little notability — is not acceptable for Wikipedia. "Cruft" is often used as a shorthand term for failure to meet the above criteria, and should not be treated as a bad faith dismissal of the information. Nevertheless, editors who declare something to be "cruft" should take care to explain in their rationale for deletion why it is cruft.

I don't care about it

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Example:

• Delete Who cares about this stuff anyway? –Indifferent 17:28, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Not everyone is going to care about every topic. We can take that as given. But our own apathy about a subject does not prevent others from caring about it, enough to want to read about it, even enough to want to write about it – nor should our apathy be a reason to delete it. If we really do not care about a topic, the courteous thing to do is to step out of the way and let others enjoy it if they will. If we really do not care about it, why argue about it? If we are so apathetic, why are we taking the time and effort even to say so? This is never a valid argument for deletion as Wikipedia, being an encyclopedia, is not concerned directly with how many people care about a topic so much as instead how notable it is, or how much it has been the subject of people giving the topic coverage.

It's interesting

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Example:

• Keep Interesting. –Fascinated 05:05, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
• Delete Not interesting. –Notinterested 05:05, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

I can insert two pennies horizontally into my nostrils. That's a fairly interesting fact, but does it belong on Wikipedia? Besides, just because we find something interesting does not mean anyone else will. Likewise, readers are not interested in every article on Wikipedia, so just because you are not interested by a topic, that does not mean everyone else is similarly uninterested.

It's useful

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Example:

• Keep Useful. –Usefulisgood 05:05, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
• Delete Useless. –Uselessisbad 05:05, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, so many useful things that do not belong in an encyclopedia are excluded; yet everything in it should be useful in some context. But just saying something is useful or useless without providing context is not helpful or persuasive in the discussion. Remember, you need to tell us why the article is useful or useless, and whether it meets Wikipedia's policies.

A list of all the phone numbers in New York would be useful, but is not included because Wikipedia is not a directory (we have Yellowikis for that). A page simply defining the word useful would be useful, but is not included because Wikipedia is not a dictionary (we have Wiktionary for that). A guide to the best restaurants in Paris would be useful but is not included because Wikipedia is not a travel guide (there is a Wikitravel for that). Usefulness is a subjective judgment and should be avoided in deletion debates unless it supports a cogent argument.

There are some times when "usefulness" can be the basis of a valid argument for inclusion. An encyclopedia should, by definition, be informative and useful to its readers. Try to exercise common sense, and consider how a non-trivial number of people will consider the information "useful". Information found in tables in particular is focused on usefulness to the reader. An argument based on usefulness can be valid if put in context. For example, "This list brings together related topics in X and is useful for navigating that subject."

There are some pages within Wikipedia which are supposed to be useful navigation tools and nothing more, disambiguation pages, categories, and redirects for instance, so usefulness is the basis of their inclusion.

If the information is "useful", you may also consider posting it on an alternative wiki.

It doesn't do any harm

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Example:

• Keep Why delete this, it is not harming anyone. –Hippocrates 05:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Why keep this, it doesn't do any good here –AntiHippocrates 05:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Just because having an article does not directly hurt anyone does not mean it should be kept. For example, if there has not been any verifiable information published in reliable sources about the subject then there is no way to check whether the information in the article is true, and it may damage the reputation of the subject and the project. Even if it is true, without the ability to check it, false information could very well start to seep in.

As for articles about subjects that do not hold to our basic tenets (verifiability, notability, and using reliable sources), keeping them actually can do more harm than one realizes - it sets a precedent that dictates that literally anything can go here. (See below for that.)

The "it does not do any harm" claim, and its rebuttal, is at the center of the philosophical editing debate of inclusionism versus deletionism. For more information and arguments, see the Meta articles Inclusionism and Deletionism.

But the purpose of an encyclopedia is to provide information: the potential readership or subjective usefulness of each item does not have to be justified if the material is notable.

It's funny

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Example:

• Keep This article is hilarious. –ComedyExpert 12:34, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
  

Wikipedia is not a repository of humor; try Uncyclopedia if you are interested in a wiki of original humor. Articles cannot be kept for their humor value alone, nor can they be kept because they are on a topic an editor finds humorous. Furthermore, the intensely subjective value of humor means that it can never be used as an indicator of worth in an encyclopedia where the merits of an article are determined by objective criteria (what is funny to one person may be dull and uninteresting to another; and perhaps downright offensive to a third.) This does not mean articles on humor-related topics have no place on Wikipedia: The Office (US TV series), Red vs. Blue, and even unintentionally funny articles such as Exploding whale all have a place on Wikipedia. Articles should be kept or rejected because of ideas such as notability, verifiability, and lack of original research - not because they meet an editor's subjective view of humor. There are more appropriate places, even on Wikipedia, than in the article space.

It looks good

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Example

• Keep Article is well laid out with good graphics Styleoversubstance

While it is certainly a good thing for Wikipedia articles to be aesthetically pleasing or well laid out from a graphic design perspective, the mere appearance of an article is not a factor in whether the subject of the article is justifiably suitable for an article on Wikipedia.

Notability fallacies

This number is big or not big enough

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Examples:

• Keep An Internet forum with 3,000 members / a magazine with 37,000 subscribers / a micronation with a population of 9,400 is notable. –Countvonnotable 04:56, 7 August 2006
• Delete An Internet forum with 3,000 members / a magazine with 37,000 subscribers / a micronation with a population of 9,400 is not notable. –Notbigenough 04:56, 7 August 2006
• Keep This persons video has over 1 million views and over 1,000 comments which is notable. –Lotsofviews 04:56, 7 August 2006

A commonly seen argument at AfD is "Subject has X number of Y, that's notable/non-notable". Notability isn't determined by something's quantity of members, but rather by the quality of the subject's verifiable, reliable sources.

This does not apply to the position taken in WP:NUMBER that articles on actual numbers over a certain size need to establish several reasons why that particular number is notable, which is a well-defined threshold.

Google test

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Examples:

• Keep It has 345,400 Google hits, so it is clearly of interest. –GoogleBoy 04:04, 4 April 2004 (UTC)
  
• Delete Only 10 Google hits, non-notable. –GoogleGirl 04:04, 4 April 2004 (UTC)

Although using a search engine like Google can be useful in determining how common or well-known a particular topic is, a large number of hits on a search engine is no guarantee that the subject is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia. Similarly, a lack of search engine hits may only indicate that the topic is highly specialized or not generally sourceable via the internet. One would not expect to find thousands of hits on an ancient Estonian god. The search-engine test may, however, be useful as a negative test of popular culture topics which one would expect to see sourced via the Internet. A search on an alleged "Internet meme" that returns only one or two distinct sources is a reasonable indication that the topic is not as notable as has been claimed.

Overall, the quality of the search engine results matters more than the raw number. A more detailed description of the problems that can be encountered using a search engine to determine suitability can be found here: Wikipedia:Search engine test.

Fame in x

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Examples:

• Delete Well I've never heard of it so it must be a hoax. –Iknownothing 00:07, 1 April 2004 (UTC)
  
• Delete People in my city have not heard of her, so she cannot be notable. -Provincial 15:55, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Who outside of (name locality) has ever even heard of this person/place/thing? –Notknownhere 14:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
• Keep John is the tallest person in my home town so should have an article about him. –Smalltownboy 05:05, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
  
• Keep I know it well. It's on my way to school. Myneighborhood 14:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Lots of things are well known to a select group of people. My Aunt Mildred might be the greatest crocheter in her local village crochet group, that makes her famous in the crocheting community in that village but it does not mean she is notable enough for a Wikipedia article. As is mentioned in one of the official Wikipedia policies, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, meaning that some things are not suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia. Everything in Wikipedia needs to be verifiable information published in reliable sources before an article can even be considered for inclusion, otherwise it would end up being original research. Most likely, no reliable source has ever published on the crocheting skills of Aunt Mildred. Wikipedia is a general interest encyclopedia and so there needs to be some evidence that a subject has attracted attention beyond a small community; if the only sources that have written about a subject are those within a small community that's good evidence that the subject is not important enough to warrant inclusion in a general encyclopedia.

Conversely, some subjects' notability may be limited to a particular country, region, or culture. However, arguments that state that because a subject is unknown or not well known among English readers it should not have an article encourage a systemic bias on Wikipedia. To avoid this systemic bias, Wikipedia should include all notable topics, even if the subject is not notable within the English speaking population or within more populous or Internet-connected nations. Likewise, arguments that state that because a subject is lesser known or even completely unknown outside a given locality does not mean the subject is not notable.

This argument is not sufficient on its own to be persuasive in deletion discussions.

Crystal ball

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Examples:

• Keep This is going to be really important very soon. Youwillsee 18:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
• Delete This is just a flash in the pan, and nobody will remember it in a week/month/year. Shortattentionspan 18:49, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, and editors should avoid using one when commenting in a deletion discussion. It is difficult to determine precisely what people believe in the present, even more difficult to predict how perceptions will change in the future, and completely unnecessary to even try. Notability is based on objective evidence of whether sufficient reliable sources have taken notice already, not on subjective judgments of whether people should take notice in the future. Focusing on the objective evidence helps the deletion discussion reach a logical conclusion; injecting your personal predictions does not.

Notability is inherited

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Example:

• Keep All examples of X are inherently notable. – Classifier 01:15, 03 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete All examples of Y are useless cruft. – Class Warfare 11:22, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep It is a radio program on a notable radio station therefore the program is automatically notable. Wheredoesitend 15:46, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete UNESCO can not be notable because it's the UN which is notable, and notability is not inherited. Justthetop 06:19, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Notability of one or more members of some group or class of subjects may or may not apply to other possible members of that group. Discuss based upon the individual subject, not the subject's overarching classification or type. If a subject under discussion is independently notable, provide the evidence to show that.

In addition, notability of a parent entity or topic (of a parent-child "tree") does not always imply the notability of the subordinate entities. That is not to say that this is always the case (two of the notabilty guidelines, for books and music, do allow for inherited notability in exceptional circumstances), or that the subordinate topic cannot be mentioned in the encyclopedia whatsoever. Often, sub-articles are created for formatting and display purposes. However, this does not imply an "inherited notability" per se, but is often accepted in the context of ease of formatting and navigation, such as with books and albums.

Similarly, parent notability should be established independently; notability is not inherited "up", from notable subordinate to parent, either: not every manufacturer of a notable product is itself notable; not every organization to which a notable person belongs (or which a notable person leads) is itself notable.

See also Wikipedia:Summary Style and Wikipedia:Article series.

Individual merit

What about article x?

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Examples:

• Keep There's an article on x, and that's just as famous as this. –KingOtherstuff 04:04, 4 April 2004 (UTC)
  
• Delete We do not have an article on y, so we should not have an article on this. –QueenOtherstuff 04:04, 4 April 2004 (UTC)

The nature of Wikipedia means that you cannot make a convincing argument based solely on what other articles do or do not exist; because there is nothing stopping anyone from creating any article. (This may be an argument that this article is not bad enough to be speedily deleted; but that does not mean it should be kept.) While these comparisons are not a conclusive test, they may form part of a cogent argument; an entire comment should not be dismissed because it includes a comparative statement like this.

Plenty of articles exist that probably should not. Equally, because articles must wait for someone who is interested in the subject to notice they are missing before they are created, a lot of articles do not exist that probably should. So just pointing out that an article on a similar subject exists does not prove that the article in question should also exist; it is quite possible that the other article should also be deleted but nobody has noticed it and put it forward for AfD yet. Sometimes arguments are made that other articles have been put forward for AfD and survived/deleted (the most famous example being the Pokémon test); these may be effective arguments, but even here caution should be used.

Deletion debates can sometimes be faulty, and even if the debate was correct it can be hard to draw comparisons: would the fact that there is an article on every Grey's Anatomy character mean there necessarily should be an article on every character on The Office? Comparisons can be highly subjective, and so it is better to look at the debates in question and see what policies were cited and make an argument based on how they apply to the current debate than just say "x was kept so this should be too". However, a small number of debates do receive wide participation and result in a decision that is effectively final, until new evidence comes along. If you reference such a past debate, and it is clearly a very similar case to the current debate, this can be a strong argument that should not be discounted because of a misconception that this section is blanket ban on ever referencing other articles or deletion debates.

The generic form of this argument, that "loads of other crap articles exist" is also common. However, Wikipedia recognizes that it suffers from systemic bias (see WP:BIAS). Sometimes the nomination of one of a series of articles that have relatively equal merit would further the bias (e.g., deletion of Fooian this but not XYZian this if XYZian represents the majoritarian culture at Wikipedia) - note that this argument differs from Fooian this vs. Fooian that or Fooian this vs. XYZian that.

See also Wikipedia:Other Stuff Exists, Wikipedia:Inclusion is not an indicator of notability, Wikipedia:Pokémon test, and User:Master Thief Garrett/Don't add sewage to the already polluted pond.

All or nothing

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Examples:

• Keep If you delete this you will have to delete everything in Category:Wikipedia articles. –AllOrNothing 12:04, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
  
• Delete We've deleted other articles in Category:Wikipedia articles, so this needs to go too. NothingOrAll 03:12, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

The status of articles on other similar topics has no bearing on a particular article. The process may have been applied inappropriately, people may not have seen the other articles yet, or consensus may have changed. As well, articles that share a superficial commonality do not necessarily all meet the requirements necessary to write a well-referenced, neutral encyclopedia article. While some avant-garde performance artists, or college professors, or elementary schools, or blogs (for example) are mentioned in enough independent, extensive references to write an article, others are not. The existence of attributable, reliable information from which a neutral, well-referenced article can be written is an important criterion in deletion discussions, not its presence in a Wikipedia category or similarity to other articles.

Meta-reasoning

Wikipedia should be about everything

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Examples:

• Keep I thought Wikipedia's purpose was to provide information on everything. AllInclusive 12:04, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
  
• Keep You are trying to remove true information! AllTruthful 15:45, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
  
• Keep This thing exists, so it should be included. AllExisting 01:14, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and as such, it should convey information on all branches of knowledge. However, "all branches of knowledge" is not "everything". Wikipedia is specifically not an indiscriminate collection of information, which means there are standards for what constitutes information that should be in Wikipedia. This is to prevent Wikipedia from becoming unmaintainable. Imagine how large an encyclopedia on everything would be: everything would include every particle in the universe, every idea that has existed or will exist, every person who ever lived, every organization that has existed or exists, every copy of an object that has existed or exists, every website that has existed or exists, etc. It is impossible to document everything, and that's why Wikipedia has established notability guidelines on what should be kept. Even though that guideline is broader than a paper encyclopedia's guidelines, it is also not "everything". So think carefully and exercise judgement when determining what should be included in an encyclopedia. Remember, the threshold is verifiability, not truth.

Don't lose the information

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Example:

• Keep because we would lose the information otherwise. –Essential Essential 13:19, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
• Delete because the information is available elsewhere. –Redundant Redundant 13:19, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

This argument is more common on WP:TFD and WP:CFD, although it sometimes comes up in discussions about lists as well. Sometimes, an issue is redundantly covered by both a list template and a category, or both a list article and a series box, or other permutations. Sometimes, a deletion debate is used to suggest that a template be converted to a category, or a category to a list. All of these have their advantages and disadvantages; generally, it makes little sense to simultaneously have a list and a category and a series box on the same issue. But sometimes it may, and there is no rule against it.

In all these cases, removing information is not an issue; if the conversion is done properly, not a thing is lost. Objecting to removal of information is rather moot and pointless when such a removal is not being proposed in the first place.

Note that this argument does hold some weight in discussions of outright article deletion, as all contribution information is lost, invalidating the GFDL license for the article. However, even in these cases, it is usually possible for the information to be restored if the article passes a deletion review.

People put a lot of work into it

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Example:

• Keep Lots of people have worked on this. – TheyWorked 16:15, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

It is unfortunate that editors put effort into writing or maintaining articles that do not meet Wikipedia policy or guidelines. Many editors have seen articles that they invested time and energy into get deleted, and there is no doubt that this can be discouraging. However, the fact of the effort put into an article does not excuse the article from the requirement of policy and guidelines. In some cases content can be merged to other relevant articles or contributed to other wikis. But on the other hand, an article that has not yet received much work may be on a notable subject, and the work can be done. Deletion is not a substitute for improvement. Also note that deleted work can be restored to your personal page on request to an administrator.

Nobody's working on it

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Example:

• Delete Article has been here for 2 years and is still a stub! –TheyDidntWork 03:29, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes an article is nominated for deletion that is not being worked on very much, or has not been edited by a person for a long time, and thus might not be in very good shape. This does not necessarily mean that the topic is unsuitable for Wikipedia, it may be that the topic is obscure or difficult to write about. An article should be assessed based on whether it has potential for expansion, not how frequently it has been edited to date, though such assessment should be realistic.

A common axiom is that "AFD is not cleanup". Articles should not be deleted as punishment because no one has felt like cleaning them up yet, as Wikipedia has no deadline. If there's anything useful towards a good article, the article should be improved, not deleted. Consider checking to see if there is a relevant Wikiproject you can contact to organise some help for the article.

Surmountable problem

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Examples:

• Delete The article is rubbish. –Rubbish McTrashtalker 13:13, 08 June 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Article is messy and poorly laid out. LostWillToFix
• Delete It's not referenced properly –Lazy1 01:01, 1 January 2001 (UTC)
• Keep We'll find some sources later –NotRightNow 01:01, 1 January 2001 (UTC)
• Keep The article is blatant spam, but we could write a NPOV article here; –WeCouldHaveNPOV 01:01, 1 January 2001 (UTC)

This kind of comment is based on the basis of the quality of the current article which may be poorly written, lack sufficient sources, or not be a comprehensive overview of the subject. However, even a poor article can be of benefit, and not so bad that Wikipedia is better off without it. That an article is poorly formatted, contains bad grammar, is lacking in certain areas, and so on are relatively minor problems and such articles can be of benefit even in the current state. Try to consider the article's potential for improvement. In the Wiki model, an article that is poor now can be improved and rewritten to fix its current flaws. In other words, the remedy for a messy article is cleanup under the Manual of Style, not deletion.

With that said, if an article is so bad that it is harmful in its current state, then deleting now, and possibly recreating it later, remains an option. If the subject is notable, but the current article is so blatantly biased that it's an embarrasment, or a blatant hoax where all the statements are wrong, then Wikipedia may indeed be better off without the article. Things which cause concerns over core policies like verifiability need to be addressed, and simply saying that major concerns of that nature could be solved eventually, is not going to solve the problem. Problems with unsourced negative statements in biographies of living people and issues like copyright infringement need to be resolved as quickly as possible.

In the case of poor but salvageable articles, the most valuable thing you can do is often to fix it up yourself. Saving a bad article listed on AFD by improving it can make you a minor hero in the eyes of many. Consider it.

The question on whether a poor but improvable article ought to be deleted is a major point of contention, and has given rise to the wiki-philosophies immediatism and eventualism.

Better here than there

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Example:

• Keep If this article is not kept then people will just keep putting it back into another article. –BHTT 06:25, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete There is a better place to put it. –NotHere 12:21, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

This argument is often made regarding articles comprised solely of mentions of otherwise notable subjects in non-notable circumstances, for example a character on one television show mentioning the name of a film or a fictional character or a real person. Thus, an article named something like X in popular culture might be forked off from the trivia or "...in popular culture" section of the article for "X" because of the large size of the "X" article or the large number of the mentions. While removing trivia or reducing the amount of it in the main article is laudable, trivial information is no less trivial for being in its own article—unless that article meets Wikipedia policies and guidelines.

Repeated nominations

Please read also the introduction of this essay on making solid arguments in deletion discussions if you came via a direct link to this subsection.

Examples:

• Keep Did not we argue all this yesterday? –DejaVu 04:04, 4 April 2004 (UTC)
• Speedy Keep Article survived previous AFD and should not have to be subjected to this rubbish again. –Yawner 12:35, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
• Delete I do not care that it survived three AFDs in the past week, I'm going to nominate it every day until it is deleted. –Trytryagain 16:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

If an article has been repeatedly nominated for deletion, sometimes users will recommend "Keep" (or even "speedy keep"), arguing that because article failed to gain a consensus for deletion before, there is no reason to renominate it. This argument is a good argument in some circumstances but a bad argument in others. An article that was kept in a past deletion discussion may still be deleted if deletion is supported by strong reasons that were not adequately addressed in the previous deletion discussion; after all, consensus can change.

If an article is frivolously nominated (or renominated) for deletion, then editors are justified in opposing the renomination. Frivolous renominations may constitute disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate a point, especially when there was a consensus to keep it in the past, or when only a short time has elapsed since the last nomination.

If an article was kept because it is potentially encyclopedic and can be improved or expanded, one should allow time for editors to improve it. Therefore, it is appropriate for editors to oppose a re-nomination that does not give enough time to improve the article.

Other arguments to avoid

The following links are to articles which describe various relevance fallacies, which should also be avoided in discussions.

See also

• User:Hiding/What notability is not
• User:Hiding/Points to note regarding deletion debates