This is an archive of past discussions with User:GloryRoad66. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
For your recent work on the Wrecking Crew article and, of course, the on-going project on the garage rock page, which is the best music genre-related page on Wikipedia! TheGracefulSlick (talk) 19:20, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
Wow! Thank you. This is extra-special, in that it is coming from a great editor such as you. By the way, I'm enjoying reading the article you expanded about the Monks--just as I have enjoyed all of the other pieces you've done so much to improve such as L.A. Woman, the Music Machine, Country Joe, and so many others. The Monks' article is very informative--from reading it I'm learning a lot about the Monks' history as Americans living in Germany during the Cold War. Garagepunk66 (talk) 01:21, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
P.S. Added thanks for the format changes to the sources at the Monks article. It is much more organized, I need to remember to list book references that way from now on.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 02:47, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
it's this other life stuff, but I have never been involved in a GA article nomination, but am honored and grateful that you are including me. I know nothing about the process, but if there is anything I can do please let me know. Are folks going to say, "Well you need to do this or that to get a GA" and if so, where is that happening? You might have left me a link, I have not yet caught up with the day. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 16:48, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
Well, I want to let everyone know about your contributions. You did a great job with the list--I don't have as much experience with lists, but from what I do know, they can often be tricky. A different set of sources goes into each entry. I can imagine for the chart positions, alone, it must have taken some time. You've taught me a trick or two about how to properly set them up. Garagepunk66 (talk) 00:11, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article The Wrecking Crew (music) you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Binksternet -- Binksternet (talk) 14:40, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
Thank you
very much for your kind and generous words, wrapped around a Barn Star. There are moments (opinion) in every wikipedian's life when she or he feels all alone and when that happens to me, someone like you (hmmm could be a song here) comes along and reminds me that what really makes wikipedia great is that I am never alone here. Cheers, Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 20:54, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
That has happened to me too, and I'm thankful for the support and encouragement that you've given me. It makes a big difference. Garagepunk66 (talk) 23:31, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
Hi, Ghmyrtle. I just noticed you left this message, so I'm sorry if I've been a bit late to respond--the last few days have been pretty hectic. I haven't yet had a chance to hear Mother Tucker's Yellow Duck, but I'd wager that I'm going to like them a lot. I'll definitely make it a point to check them out. I could look and see if I could find any additional sources. If sources can be mustered up, I'd be exited about the possibility you may be planning to write an article on them. Garagepunk66 (talk) 01:32, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
P.S.: Recently, I noticed Dr. Blofeld mentioned something about some editors doing a joint GA Nomination (concerning another project). I did not realize that was possible, but I'd be curious to know how it could be done. I was thinking that, perhaps, you, I and Carptrash could do a joint GA nomination for the Wrecking Crew article. I know that you have been involved in it over the years, and he has done a lot there too. After I finish getting a couple of extra things in the Legacy section, I think that the article will be ready. How about it? Garagepunk66 (talk) 01:58, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
I suppose we could include them, since they come from the early formative (pre-Spactor) period. But, I'd go along with whatever you decide. Either way is fine with me. Garagepunk66 (talk) 03:05, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
We have the same, more or less, problem with Ritchie Valens' La Bamba, 3 WC members. But I am inclined to say "no" for both of these. But it does seem (at least to me) that the WC designation is problematic because all these guys, and gals, were session players on their own and I doubt that a clear cut demarkation can ever be made for all the songs we can come up with. Carptrash (talk) 04:51, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
The NPP backlog now stands at 13,158 total unreviewed pages.
Just to recap:
13 July 2016: 7,000
1 August 2016: 9,000
7 August 2016: 10,472
16 August 2016: 11,500
28 August 2016: 13,158
You naturally don't have to feel obliged, but if there's anything you can do it would be most appreciated. I've spent 40 hours on it this week but it's only a drop in the ocean.--Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:47, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
is more or less the answers to your questions. That is me on drums with Los Pathetics, who were once centered in Dixon, New Mexico, and frequently played at the adobe Blue Heron Brewery where that picture was taken. I started playing with my brothers pretty much in 1966, maybe even 1965, and still play with Hannes (50 years later) in Me & My Brother, a not notable duo in and around Phoenix. However my beginnings in music were not in the United States, they were in Sri Lanka, then Ceylon and the Philippines so I was not aware of any of the bands you mention. Sorry. Carptrash (talk) 19:13, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
Me & My Brother - garage band
Well I've got something special to say to you Carptrash: though you did not grow up in New Mexico or in the US, without realizing it, you were part of the worldwide garage rock and beat boom that took place in the mid-60s. Nobody realized it at the time--everyone just went out and started bands by the thousands--in what was by far the largest rock boom in history. I'd like to research on the 60s bands from places such as Sri Lanka and the Philippines. I'd imagine that the Beatles were a big inspiration for kids in the Philippines to go out and start bands, even though they got in a "crosshairs" with the Marcos's that almost cost them their lives. There was a huge garage scene in India--there is a great book written about it called India Psychedelic. I want to eventually add coverage of bands from Cambodia, Viet Nam, the Philippines, etc. into the Garage rock article (but Rome wasn't built in a day), and I'd have to find necessary sources, which right now are hard to come by. Perhaps you know of some of those bands. Most people don't realize how big this whole beat/garage thing was--it was huge and you were a part of it--it touched so many people's lives. The Garage rock article tells what is essentially your story. I'd be curious to know the name of you and your brother's band. Do you have any recordings (if not officially released records, then tapes, acetates, etc.). Recordings by garage bands are highly-valued and you could contact someone at a label to have the recordings released. Without realizing it, the 60s garage bands set the template for much of the sound of later punk rock groups of the 70s. In fact it was the 60s garage bands who were the first to be called "punk" rock by certain famous critics looking back retrospectively in the early 1970s. Imagine a form of punk rock that had no four-letter words or expletives and was made by generally decent and idealistic 60s people. That is the true beginning of punk and it is one of rock's greatest untold stories. Garagepunk66 (talk) 00:11, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
This is getting slightly out of what I like to discuss here, how about you email me at eeklon at yahoo dot com and we continue the discussion? Carptrash (talk) 01:23, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
Just a heads up, I am a few edits away from completing my expansion of the Monks article. If you want to review it for GA, I will offer it to you first. It is a sizable article, considering they only performed for four years, but I think you will enjoy it. I also understand if you have other things you want to attend to, and can call on Binksternet if that is the case.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 02:02, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
I'd be happy to do it. My time window is just now opening up. I had gotten tied up with some work-related stuff for a couple of weeks, but that is now lightening up a bit, so I will have a chance to review the article, and it should be able to proceed pretty quickly--the next couple of weeks won't be too busy.Garagepunk66 (talk) 04:03, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
Great to hear. In return, if you need any ideas for some new articles just give me the word. I have three on hand that you would probably enjoy.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 05:37, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
Well there is the band Felt, an Alabama psychedelic rock band that released a self-titled album in 1970. Then there are the Rumbles, a Nebraska garage group best known for the song "Jezebel". Finally, there is a Canadian garage band called the Stitch of Tyme, which was on the same label as the Ugly Ducklings and the Quiet Jungle.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 06:05, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
I'd be happy to do articles on them. I'm glad we're doing some stuff about Canadian bands. I want to expand the Canadian section of the G.R.--there were so many bands there, but sadly, Canada's garage scene has not received the amount of ink it deserves. I'm going to put a mention of the Quiet Jungle in the G.R. real soon, and then I could add the Stitch of Tyme after finish that article. I now have a little more time to get back to more writing, which'll be kind of nice. Garagepunk66 (talk) 06:22, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
I thought you would like them, I purposefully choose bands that came from different backgrounds and regions. Felt recorded a great album (I have it on CD, original copies go well over $200) but it was perhaps too late to release a psychedelic album in 1971. When you look them up, I found the most sources by typing "Felt Alabama band 1971". There are plenty of sources but they sometimes get mixed with other groups.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 22:39, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
If I can't get my hands on a cheap re-issue of the album on CD, I could look and see if it is on YouTube. I could try to hunt down some sources. If you find any good sources you could let me know. I'd make sure to wait until we have good sources before starting on the article. Garagepunk66 (talk) 22:53, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
Well there are these: [1][2][3][4][5]. I wish the CD had something but it does not offer any liner notes, just personnel. By the way, about Canadian bands, I never bothered until recently to investigate them because I thought the Ugly Ducklings were as good as they got. I was dead wrong though, and interestingly enough I found they had a booming French-Canadian scene. One band that I am going to write about, Les Sinners, made an excellent cover of "Penny Lane".TheGracefulSlick (talk) 01:12, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
Just a heads-up, I am making an alamanac page soon and if it is okay with you, I want to copy some of your page because I like how it is organized.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 02:56, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Thank you, I will get to it by the end of the week. By the way, is there anything you need me to do with the Monks article? We haven't had a real conversation about the review yet so I am not sure if you have any concerns.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 21:06, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
I'm gong to comb through the article, and if I see any issues that need to be discussed I'll let you know. But, one thought is that the article could perhaps tough on the implicitly nihilist tendencies of their music. Here is a piece in Time Out that mentions it [6], and here is another piece that discusses the "deconstructionist" (i.e. nihilistic) characteristics of their music [7]--it mentions their influence on 70s new wave bands such as Devo, etc. (the name "Devo" was a play on "de-evolution"]]. the liner notes to some of their albums my discuss it. That is just a thought--there may not be much said about it to elaborate much--and, of course, anything written about it may just be all commentary and speculation. Garagepunk66 (talk) 02:51, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
Thank you for another fair and direct review. If anyone asks, I will recommend you as a GA reviewer. You definitely have improved your way of going about the whole process since the Electric Prunes review. Hopefully someone will spot the article and nominate it for a DYK so everyone else can be monks too!TheGracefulSlick (talk) 02:46, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
Hey I appreciate the recognition, your message was both poetic and humorous at the same time. If you see it missing from the talk page, it is because I moved it to my Barnstar page, so do not think I am not thankful for the message. Remember, you're a monk, I am a monk, we're all monks!!TheGracefulSlick (talk) 03:17, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
And, yes, I see you're becoming a "hardcore" monk these days. This seems to be the new "religious" conversion. I'd be interested to see how that development came to be. You've skipped from '67 to '81 and traded your tie-dye for spikes. Should I re-nickname you "GS81" or would that be premature? Garagepunk66 (talk) 04:19, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
Well I would say that is a little premature. I still have a good mix of other projects from other decades: The West Coast Pop Art Experimental Band (1960s), the Du-Droppers (1950s), and the Shellar Family (1920s). I just started editing punk band articles because, while there is an abundance of them, they are not always well-written. Besides, the more I read about the D. C. punk scene, the more interested I become. The rage and frustration those groups put into a one-minute song is astounding! After a year and a half here, I feel it is good to mix it up to keep the motivation high.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 05:09, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
I loved some of the 70s punk, particularly the Clash (I still love the Clash) , when I was in high school in the 80s. I was never a big fan of 80s hardcore, though, which was going on while I was in H.S. But, I had friends who were, and roundabout '83, we'd sometimes go to shows at Tupelo's, a club in New Orleans that hosted hardcore acts. But, about hardcore, I have to admit that I had a lot of fun slam-dancing while the lead singer would be staring down at us screaming psychotically, while the band thrashed about at 180 miles per hour. I just couldn't usually listen to a lot of the stuff on record--some of it was OK, but in measured doses. But, I did see the Bad Brains at Tupelo's. Check this out. Though they were a hardcore band, that night they did all reggae--this was before post-hardcore era! Boy, did that make the "pinheads" in the crowd throw a hissy. So, they finally did one hardcore thrash song that lasted for like 20 seconds--everyone "moshed" it out on the floor. After that they were like "OK, see, we did some hardcore for you, now are you satisfied?" ...and went back to reggae. A few years later, in the late 80s (post-hardcore era), I saw H.R. (their later offshoot band), and they played a gig at a college where the crowd was all Dead-heads in tye-die shirts. Since H.R. were Rastas, everyone assumed that they were gong to play reggae--well, think again... They did nothing else that nigh but loud, violent, dissonant hardcore/thrash/metal, and got the crowd really heartbroken--girls were actually crying. Everyone was saying "Oh, please play some reggae...Oh, please..." So finally about three quarters through the set they did one reggae song, then said "OK, we now did some reggae for you, are you satisfied? ...and went back to playing hardcore/thrash/metal. Garagepunk66 (talk) 18:22, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
New Orleans was/is a really happening place. I have to admit, I've been to Anchorage to Miami to Seattle and to Las Vegas among other places, but New Orleans by far was my favorite city. It has a rich and exotic history, great street musicians and atmosphere, and traditions that are unlike any other American city. Hardcore is hit and miss for me too because there is a fine line between good music and loud noise when it comes to that genre. My favorite hardcore band has to be Social Distortion, you would love their cover of "Ring of Fire". By the way, random historical event, have you heard of the Halifax Explosion? I just came across it in a book about famous maritime disasters, and when the Mont Blanc exploded in the bay, it was the largest non-nuclear man-made explosion in the world. I think the Minor Scale explosion (a military-controlled exercise) is the only other detonation to surpass it since it occured 100 years ago. I have no idea why I brought that up, but it is really interesting.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 23:52, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
I've heard the word "Halifax Explosion" tossed around, but I don't know anything about the actual event. I'm guessing it was really bad. I'd like to write and article about the 1973 Howard Johnson's sniper incident in New Orleans. Some snipers from an ultra-radical group took over the downtown Howard Johnson's hotel. It was an "early 70s style" terrorist incident--sadly things have gotten a lot worse since 2001. I was in first or second grade around that time. I remember when the teacher turned on the TV and we watched the news story in class. It was a big event. As for Social Distortion--I saw them in '89 when they opened for Bob Dylan at his UNO concert. They did the first set. Then Steve Earle came on, and then finally Dylan. Every one was "on" that night. It was a great night. But, Dylan was especially incandescent and transcendent. I am lucky to have seen him on a night when he was in peak form. That night was so magical--I will never forget it. There is no doubt that it somehow, at least indirectly, led me to my whole present interest in mid-60s garage--the sound that he and his band got that night with their vintage Fender guitars and blackface amps, left a permanent impression in my mind. I have a bootleg cassette of the performance too. The music sounds every bit as magical on tape. Garagepunk66 (talk) 00:26, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
I wonder if you could make a stand-alone article on the shooting. There already is a Mark Essex article, but he is only notable because of the shooting, so, in most cases, the shooter is mentioned in an article about the tragic event (unless you're incredibly "famous", if you want to use that word, like Oswalt or Booth). Maybe you could create the page and propose Essex is merged into it. But I agree things have gotten a lot worse since 2001 -- you cannot go a week it seems without a shooting or suicide bombing. Sadly, I think my generation is becoming numb to such violence. I also saw Social Distortion, but in 2011, and they still sound as if they are at their peak. A little sidenote, did you hear the Shadows of Knight held a reunion concert? My friend Eric Olsen of the Next Five recorded it for me so I should be able to judge for myself what he says was a legendary return of the band.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 01:02, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
I'd definitely like to write an article about the Howard Johnson's event itself. I'm exited about the Shadows of Knight's reunion. Are they with their original members? I know that, a while back, Jim Sohns had a band playing as the Shadows of Knight, but not with any of the original members. But, I hope that this time he can get some of the original cast of characters in on the act. Garagepunk66 (talk) 01:10, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
It was the original "Gloria" line-up so I'm told, even my favorite Jerry McGeorge of H.P. Lovecraft fame. The coolest part was singer Jim Sohns wore his super man shirt from the album cover.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 04:20, 26 August 2016 (UTC)
I can't wait to check 'em out. I bet they'll be as great as ever. I've always loved Sohns' "sandpaper-voiced" singing. I heard that once Sohns "clocked" Sid Vicious and knocked him out. I've always regarded Sid Vicious as an over-rated "no talent" poster boy for all the various heroin-infected needle-armed low-lifes everywhere who stole and ruined the image of TRUE PUNK--robbing its legacy from its authentic (and forgotten) everyday neighbor-next-door 60s pioneers. Not that I advocate violence, but Sohns gave him what he deserved. Garagepunk66 (talk) 00:30, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
By the way, my grandpa read your article on the Kings Ransom and really enjoyed it. He recalled a competition they had with various groups to see which band would record an album first. Ironically, neither of them did so, but the goal still (jokingly) continues! My grandfather also wants to try to contact his former bandmates and Kings Ransom members to reminisce, so I thank you for motivating him to try something new. He has been down lately because he can no longer play the guitar, but finding some old friends should lift his spirits.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 18:54, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
Well, this I want to say to your grandfather: "Thank you. Thank you so much for all of the wonderful music. You were part of something special that will be remembered forever. I want you to know that you are acknowledged, remembered, and appreciated. Thank you so much for bringing so much joy into the world with music." Garagepunk66 (talk) 20:44, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
P.S.: I think that your grandfather may have been the unregistered editor who did a correction in the article--for the venue called the Mod Mill (rather than the Mod Hill, which I had accidently wrongly typed). The name of that club was a good pun, because back in those days, I'm guessing they really had steel mills. Sadly a lot of what is left now is probably rust, but I hope that new industries can come in. It is sad how so many industries have left this country. In New Orleans we used to have some really big shipyards, but now it's all gone overseas. Garagepunk66 (talk) 02:25, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
I am not sure if he did, I can ask. After Vietnam and Cambodia, I know he worked at Bethlehem Steel as a side note to the steel mills. It is a shell of its former self, just a rusted ol factory rotting away next to a casino. It is kinda sad when you think about it. Another side note, I have sent out several e-mails to start to track down some musicians who do not have marked grave locations. You see, I was inspired after reading a book about a man who searched for the grave of Blind Willie Johnson, a famous blues musician. Even a legendary performer like him had no marker to say "hey, here I am, a king of blues" or "hey, this is actually my final resting place", not the other place people have said for years. I want to search for Bob Markley (his grave is photographed but not given a location!), Robert Petway, and Blind Connie Williams, so I may pay my respects to these men. Petway deserves at least a little plaque but first I need to find out where he could be buried. Some people say Chicago, others Mississippi, but records are few and far in-between on anyone from the rural South.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 03:56, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
Sadly during the time of segregation, black people had to deal with this problem a lot, particularly those of the poorest means, or often in the case bluesmen, itinerant. So many of the best-known blues musicians who went North to places like Chicago were from the Mississippi delta. Chicago blues was really just delta blues amplified. As for Markley, from what you have told me, he sounds like a real "mystery man". Garagepunk66 (talk) 04:09, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
My search for Blind Connie Williams has been the most fruitful thus far. A blues historian named Bob Eagle gave me Williams' exact former address in Philadelphia and the possibility his name was really Cornelius Williams. Knowing he most likely died in Philly really concentrates my search. Unfortunately, no one has gotten back to me yet on Markley, but maybe they just have not checked their e-mails yet.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 15:47, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
Well, being not that far form Philly, yourself, it certainly must heighten the sense of drama. Did he end up in Upper Darby? Garagepunk66 (talk) 02:43, 31 August 2016 (UTC)
He lived on Lombard Street, a predominantly black neighborhood. If I follow the theory he was Cornelius Williams, then he died on March 5, 1980, but I will need to investigate to confirm anything and maybe find a former spouse or, more realistically, children. Big news with Markley though, after e-mailing a man named Bruno Doors, I received John Ware and Michael Lloyd's e-mail. Ware has not responded but Lloyd did and we had a fantastic conversation over the phone. I did not learn much more about Markley buf he reinterated the story that Markley died in a hospital in Detroit, apparently in a vegetated state. He is very kind man; I was surprised he gave me the time to talk with him.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 15:57, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
I find it especially sad how black blues musicians are seemingly erased from the history books, not just as musiciand, but as human beings as well. When I read Blind Willie Johnson's biography the author described the issue of black cemeteries in ruin with unmarked graves and mis-marked headstones. It is shameful. I believe Connie is in a similar situation wherever he now rests. If I locate him, I want to donate a proper headstone so he is remembered in a respectable way.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 03:58, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
That would be a wonderful thing to do, and I hope that you can find his grave. I'm sure you'd like to include a bouquet of flowers there as well as part of the memorial. Garagepunk66 (talk) 04:07, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
I'll do the best I can, it is the least he deserves after being neglected for decades. Getting back to garage music, check this out [9]! It is a cover of "Project Blue" by the Endd. I always found it strange how some songs got discovered by other groups at the time. It is not as good as the original, but it still has some value, curiosity-wise.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 06:34, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
They do a good version--in their own unique way. It is interesting the way bands would cover material by other obscure groups. Right now I'm having a little fun over at the BFTG Vol. 9 and 10 article. I was in rush when I did it the first time, so now I went back to "complete" the satire. I toned down the satire in BFTG Vol. 7 (heresy--now Tim Warren's zombies are coming after poor GP66). Incidentally, a tenant who lives in the front apartment of the complex where I live, once played in a band with "Mop Top Mike" (Mike Markesich) in the 80s. Today, he told me that they had signed with Crypt Records and even started to record an album produced by Tim Warren--but that Warren's mother died and he moved to Germany, so that the whole project kind of fell through. Garagepunk66 (talk) 06:45, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
Speaking of covers, here is another obscure cover of a WCPAEB song: [10], the third I've seen! I actually really enjoy the BFTG articles, I go back to them sometimes for the humor. I also have been going back to older articles because I have to admit I was a "choppy" writer a year ago, meaning my sentences had a lack of flow. You could probably tell if you compare my recent expansion of Blind Connie Williams. Another thing, I do not think I have ever asked you this, but do you play an instrument?TheGracefulSlick (talk) 01:44, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
I notice in your sandbox #1 you making some nice additions to the WCPAEB article. I enjoyed the version you showed me on YouTube. As for instruments, yes indeed, I play guitar and drums. I'd like to write more about equipment, particularly the vintage-style guitars, amps, drums, keyboards, etc. I've done a few edits on those topics, but I need to do more. Garagepunk66 (talk) 01:10, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
I really wish I learned to play a conventional instrument, especially the drums. I play sitar, a Deering Eagle II five-string banjo, and the harmonica. I thought I could make the transition between sitar to the guitar, but it never happened. Recently, I have been trying to convert this cool (kinda novelty) tune "Advertising Girl" into a sitar song. Not many bands want a sitarist, but it is very stress-relieving.
The sitar and five string banjo have different (open-note) string scales from a guitar which makes it hard to navigate from them to a guitar (they also have different string scales than each other). I believe that the kind of 4-string banjo used in traditional jazz has the same string scale as a the top or bottom four strings on a guitar, and of course a bass (whether double bass or electric bass guitar) has the same scale as scale the top four strings on a guitar--just a couple of octaves lower. You can go right from guitar to bass, but it has a different "feel". Then of course drums are totally different. I'm not technically trained--I don't sight read, I just picked them up and played, but someone showed me some chords to help me get started when I was in middle school. At that time I had a cheap acoustic. Garagepunk66 (talk) 02:14, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
Maybe I can teach myself to understand the different scale, but for now I am happy and content with being the Indian version of Grandpa Jones. By the way, and I know I am showing you a lot of music lately, but check out this song by forgotten blues musician Billiken Johnson called "Frisco Blues". You will notice something very peculiar about him within the first minute of the song.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 04:38, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
I dig the way he imitates the sound of a freight train (and a clarinet) with his voice. Would you like me to wrote an article on him (providing sources permit)? Or, if you would like to write it--either way just let me know. Garagepunk66 (talk) 01:35, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
You can try to write an article about him, but unfortunately Johnson is one of many blues musicians who we know little to nothing about. I think he is very deserving, especially since I have not heard anything like him, but, as I said, there probably is not enough to have a significant page. Sorry I have not been active the last few days; I just have been struggling outside the Wiki world and needed a break.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 17:14, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
I hope that everything is going OK. I know that sometimes it is good to take "breather" now and then. I've been really busy myself at work, so I haven't had much Wiki-time either. But, I'll try to see what I can find on Billiken Johnson (I hope there are some good sources--needless to say, you've made me a fan--I also want to explore Connie Williams' recordings). By the way, I guess you'll agree that this thread is getting pretty long, so I'll put it in the archive and start up a new one. Garagepunk66 (talk) 01:28, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
Hello, I'm just sending this to let you know I still exist! I am sorry I have not been a very good friend as of late; I am just having a difficult time as I mentioned a week or so ago. I absolutely still am interested in writing articles and editing, but recent off-wiki events have sapped a lot of my motivation to do much of anything. I am, however, determined to return to some continuous level of activity shortly and will try to keep in touch like before. Best of luck to you!TheGracefulSlick (talk) 00:10, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
No need to feel bad--you're always a friend and you have worked so hard to earn this well-deserved rest. I just hope that everything will be OK--that is the most important thing right now. The main thing is your happiness and peace of mind. It is just so good to hear from you. I just want you to be OK. Wikipedia is not the most important thing in the world. Sometimes we all need a Wiki-break--I had to take a long break after my father died a few years ago and I have to admit that I'm going though a little bit of "Wiki writer's block"--things have been really busy at work the last few weeks, and like you, I'm feeling a bit of "battle fatigue", which I guess is natural--we've both worked so hard non-stop over the last year or so--it is just natural to want to take a break. Sometimes it's a good thing to focus on family and friends and other activities. I just hope that everything will turn out for the best. I know that it will--you're a survivor, so I know that you will be fine in time. Best wishes! Garagepunk66 (talk) 01:12, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
It mostly is real-world problems. I am not sure if I told you this because it is personal, but I have dealt with depression for a few years now. Writing actually helps me a lot, but the last couple weeks just have sapped all my motivation. I still want to create many more articles, expand The WCPAEB article, and keep working; yet, just getting the energy to do so is such a challenge. I will not trouble you with my personal problems though, so I will try to get back to you soon with more brighter news.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 01:25, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
Depression is a normal thing, and a lot of people experience it, particularly at certain times--I know that I have. It may seem unbelievable right now, but better times will come, and the difficulties of present will pass. Things will get better. Garagepunk66 (talk) 02:18, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
You should gird your loins and gear up for the long haul here. I believe that I have seen this editor elsewhere and .... well as in dealing with most things in life, pick your fights carefully. I thought that you gave a very good rebuttal so let's see what that does. If you get no reply wait a bit and then remove the tags. If you do get an answer . . . ..... well let's see what it is and go from there. I have bookmarked the article but will be on the road for the next week. Also, most of my edits are done from my library, which is short on Punk stuff except for my daughter's PhD dissertation from Purdue on gender & punk rock which won't help here. Carptrash (talk) 06:35, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
I took care of the IP who was attacking us (thanks to our admins) so we will not be bothered by him for at least three weeks. I finally get to write articles again, and, interestingly enough, I am writing about a women's basketball player named Molly Bolin. I never realized how difficult it was for women to be taken serious in a professional sports setting, and her story has helped opened my eyes to that. I am a little behind on the projects I wanted to get to, but I am glad I had an extended amount of time to learn about her.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 02:29, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
It's good to have you back. I'm glad that IP creep has been blocked. I've gotten a little behind, too. The last few weeks have been really busy at work, but things should lighten up a bit soon. I'll have to read the article about Molly Bolin. I love the movie Love and Basketball, which features the story of a female African American basketball player. While there has been progress in recent years, there is still much gender inequality in sports. Tennis (since the 1960s) is the one sport where the women have achieved equal spotlight as men. In some ways women's tennis is even more popular. I'd have to credit Billie Jean King for paving the way. We always need heroes who can knock down barriers and guide the way. Garagepunk66 (talk) 02:45, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
P.S.: How about Trump's antics lately? He has really hit an all time low as far as candidates go. It's such an embarrassment every time he opens his mouth. I missed the debate tonight. Every time I see his picture on TV, it makes me want to throw a brick into the TV set. Though I've been critical of Hillary--she has her share of problems--I think I'm going to vote for her. There is really other choice now. I don't like the whole email thing, but I'm developing a begrudging respect for her--she is carrying herself well. I had considered Gary Jonson, but was unimpressed--it turned me off when he said that the solution for global warming is to build spaceships to Mars. He can't even mention a foreign leader's name (at least Trump can mention his buddy Putin). Garagepunk66 (talk) 03:18, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
Me too, if this IP has an issue, he could have been a man about it instead of trying to say we are sockpuppets or whatever the story is now. We have similar interests, but that's it. If that's sockpuppetry then no one would be editing Wikipedia. As for Trump, I actually respected his honesty and the idea to shake up Washington but he is terribly incompetent. He has the knowledge to jumpstart the economy; however, he does not have a plan for our foreign policy other than "bombing ISIS to hell". I hate Hillary -- I wanted Bernie to win the Democratic ticket -- because she only tells the truth when there is uncontested evidence, and even then she hardly takes any responsibility. Unfortunately, I have no other choice but to vote for her. Sad times in our country when we are forced to take the lesser of two evils.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 16:57, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
PS - I should point out that while I respect Trump's honesty, I absolutely disagree with what he has to say (if that makes sense). I also wanted to tell you I asked Bishonen to up the level of your talk page protection so only verified users can edit it. It should prevent IPs from posting stupid messages like the one removed earlier.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 22:46, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
Unfortunately, I was not actually able to make the request without your permission. My apologies, but Bishonen did mention a way to request it yourself. There was a link in the thread on her talk page. The sooner it is completed, the sooner CrazyAces can go back to talking to himself and leaving us alone.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 01:15, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
I'm going to move the thread that the unsigned editor (sockpuppet of Crazy Aces) put on the bottom of the page. His nonsense unwarranted. We need not even respond. Garagepunk66 (talk) 01:50, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
Good move, it was my bad to try to reason with him logically. Did you hear the Shadows of Knights' reunion toiring is expanding outside Chicago? If anyone is willing to promote them, they are eager to play. Even Louisiana can see the SOK for the first time since 1968. I might try and catch them again if they come to Pennsylvania or New Jersey.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 02:04, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
I'll have to check them out when they come to Louisiana. It would be a great show, now that they have their original members. Here are some other reunited bands playing. Check out the Sites 'n Sounds back in action. They did that great song, "The Night is So Dark" way back when. But, here they are today doing terrific version of "Please Please Me".[11] It is interesting the way they tailor the song to their unique style. It really works well. I love the Farfisa organ and the vintage set of drums (notice the way the drummer tunes and mikes his old Slingerlands, using vinage coated heads, etc. just like it would have been done in the 60s to get that vintage drum sound). And, they haven't lost one ounce of energy. It is amazing that they are now pushing 70 but still have so much energy and zest in their music. Check out the Brymers. [12] I hope that a lot of boomers retiring will go back and do stuff like this. The world needs it! Garagepunk66 (talk) 02:39, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
Sorry about the pointless reverting war we had to pull on your talk page. I wish Bishonen could have just protected your page when I asked because I knew CrazyAces is just here to waste everyone's time, but I guess she was correct in saying it was not my place to ask. I have always been skeptical of 60s garage band reunions, but the examples you showed me make me believe some groups never age. It is not that I doubt their abilities as musicians, it is just difficult for people pushing 70 years of age to recapture the intensity of their former, younger self. I never heard Sites n Sounds until now, but I agree with you that they have not lost one ounce of energy since their first go-around.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 16:38, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, I've seen some bands get back that have lost their spark. Luckily the Sites seem to be going strong. I have a feeling that the Swamp Rats are still really good, based on what you've told me. Garagepunk66 (talk) 00:40, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
My pleasure, it is the least I could do because, if I have not said this before, you should know I feel responsible for how badly the situation has deteriorated with CA. It all started with this Afd, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Roseberry, as a new editor at the time I wanted to try to cast a vote on a discussion for the first time, and, by completely circumstance, it was a CA article (unfortunate, in hindsight). He did not take kindly to the fact I voted delete (even though I said how it could be kept) nor that I agreed with Niteshift36 about how strange several IPs were voting keep. CA lashed out by nominating my articles for deletion, as you remember, which he had no knowledge about, and escalated the situation when he failed or I tried to make peace. I guess I always felt sorry for him, having so much rage and anger, that I wanted to help him. I have always considered it my biggest blunder on here and I apologize that it has spread to you.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 06:59, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
You need not feel bad. CA is responsible for his own deplorable actions--he has done these deeds under his own volition. I'm just glad that you were there to help me out, because I've been really busy with my job and have not been able to tend to Wiki matters as much as I'd like to be able to. Luckily, things are about lighten up for a couple of weeks. But, thank you for helping me. It made a big difference. Garagepunk66 (talk) 00:22, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Things have been quietly recently so I think everything can go back to normal. By the way, I found this group called Danny's Reasons and I absolutely love their version of "Under My Thumb". I think their song "Triangles" is more well-known but check out this cover anyways, you will not be disappointed. Thankfully, enough sources are around for an article on this great band.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 01:44, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
I love jammin' to the song "Triangles" on my Best of Pebbles CD. It's the ultimate song to crank while crusin' around in a '66 GTO. I dream that I had a car like that... But, I can jam to it my Toyota anytime and never cease to love playin' it--it's always fun. As for "Under My Thumb", I hadn't heard their version, but it is an inteseting take, almost island-like. Garagepunk66 (talk) 02:54, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
P.S.: I read the Danny's Reasons article and enjoyed it a lot. I was surprised to learn that Bob Dylan's brother (David Zimmerman) managed them. Great trivia. Which is a perfect example of the old adage "What a small world it is". It has been a great adventure learning about the journeys of all these bands we've been doing articles on. I've learned some great stories (and trivia) along the way, and I know you have too. I'm thinking of that immortal Grateful Dead line: "What a long, strange trip its been..." Which brings me to the question: What are some of the most memorable stories and trivia that you've learned form writing about these bands? Garagepunk66 (talk) 01:13, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
Excellent question. I would have to say the most interesting trivia I learned is from the story of the West Coast Pop Art Experimental Band. I find it amazing how many bands and artists were connected to the band in some way. Jimmy Greenspoon of Three Dog Night, for instance, toured with the band and played in Michael Lloyd's first group the New Dimensions. Ron Morgan, also of Three Dog Night (briefly) and the "New Improved" Electric Prunes (also brief...thankfully), played on almost all their albums. Hal Blaine of the Wrecking Crew was on all the Reprise albums. Even Kim Fowley was involved; it was Fowley who helped form the group at Bob Markley's mansion where the Yardbirds and Alice Cooper were playing. You could credit Lloyd alone with several bands including October Country, the Smoke, the Fire Escape, and St. John Green (he even worked with Steven Speilberg!). I truly have not encountered another group where so many side-stories can be thoroughly detailed.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 04:03, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
They have more connections and side stories than Liz Taylor had husbands! I don't know if I've written about any individual band with that much trivia, but I found out that Charles Larkey of the Myddle Class joined the Fugs and later married Carol King after her divorce from Goffin. The Stillroven had an interesting "what a long strange trip its been..." story, where they literally "roved" all around the USA. They started out in Minneapolis-St. Paul, but later re-located to Arizona. The did some tracks at Norman Petty's studio in Clovis, New Mexico (where Buddy Holly had recorded) but then re-located again to Denver. They met a "jet setter" named Bonnie Diamond in Devever, who tried to hook them up in New York. They went to visit her in Washington, DC for awhile. They were offered a residence in Greenwich Village, but turned it down, but they did an audition with producer Phil Ramone in NY. After everything fell through, they went back to Minnie-Paul broke. Then, the Montells had that whole scandal involving Morton Downey. So, in writing about all of these bands, we can truly say "what a long strange trip its been..." Garagepunk66 (talk) 16:32, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
Really nice interview! I know that you had said you were working on an interview. Were you able to do the interview in person or via email? Garagepunk66 (talk) 18:12, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
I got to use Skype to directly see Olson over the computer, but most of that part of the discussion was mostly banter. We actually became good friends, similar to the way I have with Randy Bowles of the Velvet Illusions. Olson was very proud of his recording of Springdale 73 as you could maybe tell. I tried to cover as much as I could, but if you have any feedback I would appreciate it. I am currently interviewing Andrew McClennan of the Heard so any suggestions can only help me improve.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 03:37, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
Anyone can post songs there. You always seem to have songs posted on your user page (it has become a personal trademark), so you'd definitely enjoy putting something there. I'm more reluctant to post favorite songs for some reason. But, I went ahead and had a little fun--I just threw some songs on there. I can't say what my 20 favorite songs are. My faves depend on the mood I'm in in, so it changes from day to day. As for the interview, I'll read it over carefully and see if there are any things to improve, but based on what I've seen it looks fine. I know that the key to a good interview is to establish a good conversational flow and find a way to get the interviewee to let out their story. On one hand, and reviewer intshould be well-prepared, but on the other hand, also allow freedom to improvise, when the right cue arrives and roll with it (if it leads to the right place). In some interviews, you're looking mainly for basic facts, in others you're looking for more free association. If I was interviewing Bob Dylan, I'd want to get him to pontificate about the meaning of life, facts be damned (everyone already knows the facts of his career, so it's the "vibe" I'd go after in that situation). It just depends. For an unkown musician, one can gain facts, but also get some emotional testimonies. There's no law that says a person has to print every word that was spoken--one can leave certain things on the cutting room floor if need be. But, that interview looks fine. My friend from the Gaunga Dyns has been beggin' me to do an interview. I mean, we chat all of the time, but that's the same thing as actually doing an interview. He says that Fenderstrock got a few things wrong at NOLA.com, so he wants to have an interview to set the record straight about a few details. I'd like to do more stuff like that, but I had gotten really busy with at work, so I haven't gotten 'round to it--and I've kinda neglected Wiki too. But, I was able to get a couple of days off, so I did some neglected errands, killed that stack of papers on my desk, and did a few more Wiki-edits. It dawned on me that I've been wanting to create a new theme on my user page. I had to move the pictures around and change the sizes until everything fit on the page. I was reluctant to change the old theme--it was a gas and I still love it, but I've just felt for a long time that I'd like to put in something along the lines of what I have now. It'll give me some inspiration to push the much-needed refresher button. Garagepunk66 (talk) 13:27, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
I wrote in my list, but, like you, they are not neccassarily my top favorite songs. I purposefully choose one song per artist so I could represent my tastes more clearly. Personally, I prefer album lists, but this one made me think long and hard about which songs fit me best. You may want to put your list in alphabetical order; it puts you closer to the top so that is not a bad thing. By the way, if your friend wants an interview I would be happy to do so, especially for a member of the Gaunga Dyns. I have been thinking about changing my userpage a little too, but I am not sure how at the moment. The Grace picture obviously needs to stay because she is my 60s role model. Maybe one of Janis, I am always happy to see her.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 00:40, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
I ask that you let me be the person to deal with Gaunga Dyns. But, please don't take badly to that--there are many other people you can interview. It would probably be easiest focus on Pennsylvania, particularly Allentown, where your grandfather played--he probably could introduce you to some people. As for user pages, if you decide to make changes to yours, I'd be interested to see what you come up with. But, don't feel that you need to re-invent the wheel, because you've got a really good thing going there already. But, maybe you could add Janis (and obviously keep Grace). I notice that you've changed it a couple of times--I remember you used to have some different things, but you've stayed true to your approach--you have your own style with the page, which is a good thing. As for mine, I hope that you like the changes I made there. The underlying content is still exactly the same--I just changed the photos and "theme", that's all. If it doesn't look right, please let me know and I'll try to improve it. I hope that I'm striking the right note with it for what I need at the present time. But, it is kind of heartbreaking for me to leave my old page--I loved the car theme. But, I think people were not seeing the breadth of what I am about. Not you, of course, but most other people. They only saw the novelty of it and thought it was nothing more than cute. They could not see that I was trying to capture a magical moment--the last moment of our nations' innocence. Theoretically, I was always intending to relate that with the more serious images you see now. Garagepunk66 (talk) 02:12, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
It is no trouble; if you need an outlet for the interview Chris Bishop will be happy to upload it. After the Heard interview, I am going to try to talk with a member from the Human Expression. I messaged the website a few minutes ago in hopes they might reply. I may update my psychedelic albums list soon and have a small paragraph about why I am so passionate about the 1960s. Personally, I prefer your new theme for its artistic merits and the mixed emotions I get with each photo. On one hand I am excited by the great leaders like MLK Jr. and Robert Kennedy and the counterculture, but I also see the turbulence of the decade with the images of Vietnam, the JFK assassination, and the protests.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 03:58, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for your understanding about the Guanga Dyns. I'm glad you like the new format. Yes, I was trying to juxtapose different emotions. The picture of the mid-century steeple (from Marin County Civic Center, designed by Frank Lloyd Wright) captures the feeling optimism and innocence: on one hand hand modern, yet still out of an old frontier America (you see that in all of the architecture form the 50s and 60s--modern, yet that sweet old America). I parallel that with the space rocket which represents a similar optimism: technology, but still in a time before people became cynical. Both are spired upwards (like steeples--not church steeples, but monuments of public purpose and endeavor) symbolic of faith in progress exemplified by the Kennedy era. And of course there are JFK, RFK, and MLK. All I need is one assassination to indicate what happened to all three. I was worried that, with picture of the soldiers in Vietnam, people would falsely think that, with that their guns pointing left, it would appear that they are (symbolically) firing at Kennedy, which was not the intention. I wanted to show how the whole thing with guns and violence affected us all--that whether it be Viet Nam, violence in the streets, assassinations, or whatever, it's all connected, so I placed it there, but if it appears to send the wrong message, let me know. There are the MP guns in the protest picture, too. And, of course Woodstock--that last burst of idealism. I wanted to put in some other pictures, but I couldn't get them to fit into the layout properly, so I ended up with less than I had intended. But, I guess the ones here will do for now. Garagepunk66 (talk) 04:36, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
Mine are not so much my favorite songs as what I have just been listening to. I look forward to seeing what you post there. Carptrash (talk) 22:29, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Back from the Grave, Volumes 1 and 2 (CD) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. --StarcheerspeaksnewslostwarsTalk to me21:21, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
When you think a new category needs to be created, please make sure the category doesn't already exist with a different name (see WP:CAT). I've redirected several categories you recently created, because they were duplicates of existing categories:
Also, please note that to add an article to a category, you do not edit the category, but the article. Thanks, —swpbT18:46, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
Thanks, swpb. When I initially typed in the categories, all I got were red-links, so I created categories for the red links. I did not know that there were pre-existing categories. Garagepunk66 (talk) 19:37, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
Garage rock
I apologize for our recent disagreements in regard to the BFTG Afds and GR page. I want to get back to the way things were. While I still believe in my stances on those pages, I want you to know all of it was for the best interest of the subjects. At this point, however, I am slowly changing my view on a split, pending how effective the trimming and revising is. The article has it's issues, that you cannot deny, but not all of them can be fixed with a split. If everything goes well, which I have no reason to believe it will not, I will be in total support of retaining the article without branch pages. Please do not be upset with me though if consensus eventually sways toward Ilovetopaint's proposal.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 01:34, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for your consideration. I don't have a crystal ball, so I cannot predict the outcome or how I will feel about it come the time. I would hope that the outcome will be good. I am happy to see that we are all evolving. I will try to do everything I can to reduce the unnecessary weight in the article to avoid radical truncations. I am trying to do more reductions, but it is going to take awhile. I have a lot of business outside of Wikipedia to tend to right now, so this is not coming at an ideal time. But, I am evolving along with everyone. Garagepunk66 (talk) 02:57, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
Just a recommendation, I would stop messaging Fylbecatlous for a little. I do not think she really appreciates them, even if you had good-intentions. Nothing against you, but repetively messaging someone, especially when the content is a little odd, can get annoying. Listen or don't, I don't care I just thought I would give you a heads-up about it.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 00:22, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
I'll take that advice. When others disagree, I will always try to come up with workable and sensible compromises for the greater good. I try to deal with people in good faith and offer positive solutions. If I sometimes I strike a hard bargain, that is not because I am inflexible, but that I want to see a constructive outcome for the projects that have been my handiwork and passion. I'm not infallible, but I know a thing or two about the areas I contribute in. It should be perfectly understandable that I would want to protect the projects that I have worked on an see that they not get mishandled or destroyed. You would feel the same regarding your projects and would expect me as your friend to help you protect your work (and you have asked me to do so in the past), which I always have done. In the BFTG delete discussion, people are not taking into account the aspect of transfer of information--I am simply trying to demonstrate way for the possibility of a constructive merger. In the GR article, I am having to deal with an ill-conceived split proposal that could gravely harm the article. Regarding the editor you mentioned, I just feel that I never got a chance to properly be introduced and am trying to make peace. I admit that I made a mistake to put that joke in there--it was not badly intended--people need to realize that this whole thing has been really scary for me. The whole current split debate would have been better avoided in the first place--we could have corrected the problems and reduced the size during a normal FAC process, without dangling the prospect of a radical split hanging over the proceeding. The editor you made reference to should not see me as operating out of ownership, but out of dedication--my contributions to the GR have been a labor of unending sacrifice and love. I did not ask for this whole ordeal, but I'm trying to find a positive solution. I want that editor to know that I mean no harm. But, I'll step back from such overtures, as you said I should. Garagepunk66 (talk) 05:37, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
As I said, it is nothing against you, some editors just have a low tolerance for tension. I will always have your back in unfair situations, but these last two incidents are more about how you handle the situation. The GR discussion did not need to be as stressful as it turned out to be; everyone there has been willing to compromise. I must say though, I am not fond of Ilovetopaint's latest comments and if I were you I would draw a line there. Reductions are needed, but removing sections is overkill, especially if no sub-articles are created to compensate for it. And just saying, editors have said a FAC process would not be a good place to fix those kind of problems so, in a way, there were at least some positives from all this.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 06:42, 17 November 2016 (UTC)
I hope that there can be positives that come out of the present deliberations, but it has been indeed stressful. There is a bad proposal hanging over our heads, and things could go awry if better judgment doesn't prevail. The present size issues could have been corrected in the early stages of FAC--I'd have been a busy-bee to go about correcting them from the get-go (I was even planning to do a pre-FAC trimming this Thanksgiving and Christmas--I was just as critical of the excessive size). The situation you are referring to regarding Ilovetopaint is an example of what I had been worried about. Now you see why I have been worried. ILP has a reputation of doing good work in his main projects, but is excessively brusque regarding other people's work. I respect his best work, but he makes unwarranted insertions into quality articles with tag-bombs, unnecessary "WP: Synth", "source doesn't say this" (when it does), and "original research" tags, and causes unnecessary headaches for dedicated and knowledgeable editors who toil in vineyards that are not his specialty areas. His methods can often can be disruptive and even downright detrimental to the quality of the articles. And, while he sometimes has valid points, he can often miss the mark by a country mile. It would be a mistake for people to put too much credence in his every whim. I'm not the radical in this situation. I'm just doing what I see as my job to protect the article (that would be expected of anyone who has spent so much time on the project). Every sensible editor should see the dangers of a radical split or excessive diminution. But, that is not to say that ILP doesn't have some valid points. And, in regard to his legitimate concerns (and everyone else's), I have been trimming sections diligently. I will try to pare each section down its irreducible element, but hopefully avoid the catastrophe of going beyond that. I think that with exception the little quip the other day (which I admitted was a mistake and apologized for it--I tried to offer a peace gesture to no avail), I have worked hard to engage in a constructive dialogue with the other editors, even ILP. I have worked hard to bring my share of compromise in every removed byte you see on the edit history. What else can I do? Stand idly by and let a near-FA article go to pieces or get diminished? That is not our job as editors. We all have a responsibility to make sure articles are handled in a responsible way. Every one of us. Garagepunk66 (talk) 13:47, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
Unnecessary? But you are trimming a great chunk of the article based partly on synth and original research issues. Like I have said many times, no one is trying to do anything detrimental to the article nor anything radical. You simply are too personally invested in the project and do not enjoy your work being criticized. And I know you are going to say something along the line "Don't I have a right though?" or "You would act the same way", but you have said some disrespectful things about Ilovetopaint. He actually had a lot of courage to spotlight the problems with the article, something I could not even feel comfortable to do, and put it through an actual vetting process that GA review completely missed or ignored. Nonetheless, I am keeping an eye on the GR page and I can assure you I will not agree with any actual radical changes that are not needed, but that situation has not come to light yet.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 01:09, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
Wait a minute. I have been trimming the article, because that is what everyone agreed needs to be done. You are out of line to say I am doing original research. I have always based my edits on external sources, and you should know that. The trimming is due to excessive detail, not original research. You never once told me that you had these kinds of problems with the article, if fact you gave me a barstar extolling it as "the best music genre article at Wikipeida". You did not have to word it that way if that was not how you felt. I even asked you to point out things that needed to be corrected, and you never told me a thing. Now you are now questioning my objectivity and good judgment. I haven't disrespected ILP, I'm just critiquing certain things he does--the same things other editors have gone on record saying, but I also pointed out his posivies. But, no he has not been particularly respectful in the way he has conducted his proceedings, with all of the unnecessary tag bombs, frivolous accusation of "original research", and extreme proposals (I'm sorry, the proposal to break it up into three parts or cut California by 80% is silly). I think that I have been quite respectful, albeit critical. And, the GA review was done by one of the most thorough and respected reviewers. Most of my trimings are happening in the regions section which were put in after the review. So, I am just making necessary corrections and am operating in good faith. I don't mind constructive criticisms, but radical 3-way split and reduce key sections by 80% proposals are not where the locus of the conversation should be. I am trying to address everyone's concern that the article needs to be trimmed in size. Though I am not in favor of the split proposal (and have some of the best reviewing editors to back me up), I am more than willing to do my part to remove excessive heft from article. Garagepunk66 (talk) 01:56, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
Have you seen this yet Talk:Garage rock/to do? It notes the article is marked by synth and unencyclopedic language, among other things. You could research the guidelines because even I, who hardly considers WP guidelines unless it improves the article (in this case it is critical), agrees with the findings. You cannot keep using the Barnstar thing as something to hold over my head. All Ilovetopaint has asked for his proper formatting and research because he knows more than just about anyone how to write a sound music genre article. Unfortunately, GA review did not seem too concerned about every aspect in this situation, but it can be amended by the steps you are taking.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 02:00, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
By the way, what is going on at the garage punk talk page? It is really confusing. In my interpretation, garage punk describes 1960s acts (before the term protopunk came along) and 1980s revival groups. Do you agree? I feel like that is not very controversial but there is a discussion about it still.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 02:07, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
The Garage punk page discussion pre-dates the present split debate at the GR (so you have to understand that there were issues with ILP that preceded the GR discussion). The discussion there is complex, so you'll need to look there for specifics. I agree 100% with you that the term "garage punk" is often used to refer to 60s groups (and I often use the term myself), but there is a distinction to be made between how it is used by 60s garage fans as an alternate term for 60s garage rock and how the term applies to the later (modern) subgenre that emerged in the 1980s that is an updated version of garage (no doubt influenced by the 60s--and no doubt operating in continuum from the 60s). But, it is that post-80s subgenre that the article has traditionally been used to designate. Keep in mind that Wikipedia is not a dictionary, so if the article's main purpose is to show how garage punk started in the 60s, then we don't need a another article--the GR would alone suffice--the GR article makes clear right form the beginning that term "garage punk" as an alternate expression used by garage rock fans for 60s GR, and it explains it in detail in the later sections. Then there is the issue ILP brought up of the possibility "garage punk" as designating a separate subgenre within 60s garage (separate from the rest of 60s garage). But, that has not been established in the sources--when "garage punk" is used to refer to 60s bands, it is done more broadly to refer to the whole genre--the only person who could ever be considered a possible dissenter on that is Tim Warren of BFTG (debatable)--but, Vol. 7&8 of his Last of the Garage Punk Unknowns focuses on folkier-sounding 60s garage bands, so I don't think that he would officially go on record saying that there is separate subgenre within 60s garage called "garage punk"--some of his perceived infections in that direction (on the BFTG series) are primarily marketing to make 60s garage look more palatable to post-70s punk fans. So, for the general broad-use of "garage punk" by 60s garage rock fans, I do not necessarily disagree in theory with ILP, but rather in application. However, I think that his current editing of the article takes it too far away from how it had defined the genre over the years, and that is not respectful to knowledgeable editors, such as Sabrebd (now semi-retired) who did so much for the article. I am only saying that we have to be careful before we take an article out of the context it has operated in for its whole existence--most of the sources there treat it mainly in terms of bands post-80s. I made changes a while back that were an evolution towards what ILP has now, but when I made them, I still tried to operate within the framework of what had been there--I just evolved it towards a more 60s-oriented perspective. When I made those changes, I was not willing to is quite as far as he, that's all. I think that I struck the correct balance. Whereas now the genre has been fundamentally re-defined in a way that may go too far--the Garage punk article exists primarily to address the more modern subgenre, whereas the GR article exists to address garage rock in its broadest meaning (both 60s and beyond). I'm not going by personal opinions here--I'm actually going against my own predictions and stepping outside of my shoes to advocate that we keep the article operating within the framework that has for years. I'm actually a lot more humble than you think--I try to operate as best as possible within the framework of what other editors before me have established, unless I find something specific that is mistaken or inaccurate. And, I don't go around unilaterally tag-bombing and trying to lecture knowledgeable editors of other articles how they are using "original research" and engaging in "WP:Synth" and attempting to propose radical recontextualization/reorganization schemes on what those editors have been so kind and generous with their time to build. If I propose changes I will do so with the utmost kindness and mention helpful specifics (in fairness to ILP, he has offered some specifics--I actually respect him--I just with he had more respect for me and others). I am an evolutionist, not a revolutionist. Everybody thinks I'm this radical and arrogant person. I can strike a hard bargain sometimes, true (there's nothing wrong with taking a stand for what you believe is right), but believe it or not, I try to approach topics with a sense of judiciousness and humility. I try to be a decent person and friendly editor. When I disagree, sometimes I'll even use humor to lighten things up as a way of saying "I love everyone, we just have a little disagreement here".
As for the Can-do list for the GR, I hadn't seen it, but I'm glad you showed it to me. ILP put it there. I'll try to do my best to allay those concerns, provided that they are reasonable. I could try to re-do some of the language that he feels is unencyclpedic (he never told before me what statements he thought needed to be changed--this is the first time I've seen specifics). The reason the GA the reviewer may have seen necessity of changing the language may not have been oversight, but that he saw nothing wrong with the language (these things are close-calls and open to interpretation--I was trying to be faithful to the sources). But, I could change some wording. Let me get the trimming done first--that is really what we should be concerned with at this juncture, then we can work on the language (changing language is just a part of the review process--it might be best to wait until FAC to change the language, when we have all the top reviewers on board, then we can make sure that we replace the language with the best possible expressions). There is nothing in the to-do list that mentions a split but rather "nuts and bolts" things. My only objection to what is on the list is the insinuation that much of the text is WP:Synth, there are no specifics to back that up--most experienced reviewers would agree that the article is source-based and accurate. But otherwise, whenever ILP and others make specific nuts and bolts suggestions, I'll be glad to listen and make any needed corrections. The to-do list is a good way to make necessary corrections without having to resort to a major split or diminution. So, it is a constructive step. Garagepunk66 (talk) 02:30, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
That is how I always seen it. There are obvious punk-esque bands from the 60s like the Music Machine, the Chocolate Watchband, and the Monks and then the 1980s revival. I used to run into a little trouble with that when I was writing the Music Machine GA because I wrote "garage punk" in the genre section, not "proto-punk". It is a little irritating because they are essentially the same thing except we cannot credit 60s bands in such a way. Sure, there are differences between a 60s "punk" band and an 80s one, but I still think they are coming from the same place. For example, I have been listening to a garage punk band called the Reatards, and they make even the most primitive 60s garage band sound like professionals. There actually was a whole movement to purposefully make music sound lo-fi in the late-1980s and 90s. I may comment on the discussion if Ilovetopaint replies to your comment because I think it is important the 60s component remains in the article.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 03:02, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
The 60s component will remain in the article--we all want that--there is no disagreement in that regard. And, I agree that they are coming from the same place--ditto. The problem is that the GP article has traditionally been there to focus on the particular post-1980 bands' subgenre of garage rock, that got tagged "garage punk"in the 80s. As for protopunk: while proto-punk is largely synonymous with 60s garage (i.e. with "60's punk". 60s "garage punk"), it is does not have the exact same definition, though there is a huge overlapping boundary--imagine it like a Venn Diagram where 90% of the circles overlap. But, proto-punk has a slightly different definition:
"Proto-punk" is a post-1976 term that retroactively (in hindsight) refers to any form of rock music made before the 1970s punk movement (pre-1975) that either anticipated the sound stylistically and/or directly influenced 70s punk (which naturally includes so much of 60s garage). But, it also includes music outside of the garage sphere, such as British glam, German Krautrock, etc. The term "proto-punk" is certainly often used to describe 60s garage and many of the Detroit bands 1969-1974, who were definitely garage-based--the Detroit rock scene grew right out of 60s garage and many of its adherents had been in 60s garage bands (i.e. MC5, Iggy Pop, etc.)
However, the term "garage punk" (like "60s punk") when used by 60s garage rock fans, is not generally used to designate a "punk-eque" thread in 60s garage the way proto-punk does, but rather the larger whole of 60s garage (perhaps with the more raucous examples epitomizing what is a larger whole). When 60s garage fans are using the term "punk" or "garage punk" they are using a pre-1975 term (championed in the early 1970s by famous rock writers such as Lester Bangs and Greg Shaw). Since the tern "garage punk" (unlike protopunk) pre-dates 70s punk, it does not depend on post-70s punk definitions of what the music is supposed to sound like in order to justify its application (Shaw, always to the end championed the diversity of 60s garage punk--he felt that later punk narrowed the scope of punk stylistically--read his essay in the Nuggets box set, and he laments that he and other writers shifted to using the term "proto punk" in the later 1970s rather than "punk"--he feels that "punk" should have continued to be used refer to 60s groups in their more stylistically diverse form than what 70s punk became). However, although the term "garage punk" is used and has always been used by fans of 60s garage rock (me included), the term "garage punk" came back into vogue in the 1980s as a tag for bands such as the Mummies, and later the Hives and their subgenre which combined garage with later punk influences. The Reatards fall into this category. It is these modern bands' subgenre of garage rock that has been the context of the Garage punk article for many years. If we treat the topic the way ILP has just done, then there would be no point in having this article--the Garage rock article would alone suffice, because, in the beginning there, it establishes that "garage punk" is an alternate term for 60s garage rock. And, it treats the later post-1980 garage punk subgenre (in the Revivals section ) in continuum.
Before I started editing at the GP, it described Garage punk almost completely in modern terms as a "fusion" between garage rock and punk. I knew that the article had to say more about the 60s, so I put that in, along with the etymology, etc. I felt that the article also needed an explanation that the term "garage punk" was a) originally used to describe 60s garage and b) is still used by fans of 60s garage to describe 60s garage (exactly along the lines of what you are saying), so I put that in in the second sentence of the heading. I evolved the article in the direction ILP is championing, but I left the modern reference in the first sentence (no longer so much as a "fusion" but modern bands grounded in 60s garage) and kept the article in its post-1980 orientation. I kept the modern statement in the first sentence, because I was careful not to take the article out of its established prior context--most of the sources address modern bands influenced by the 60s, but updated (i.e. MTV article). Hann's article treats it in a continuum 60s to present (mostly 60s). I happen to agree with Hann, by the way, personally, but I realize that I am not big enough to overturn the other sources that view it more in modern terms or try to overturn the article's traditional focus. All I wanted to do was get the 60s story in there, but let the rest be. But, we have to be careful not to go too far. If you look at ILP's new wording in the body section, it is problematic. Check this statement out for a new lease on confusion:
Hann locates the "golden years" of the genre to 1965–67. While originating from punk and garage rock, it sometimes incorporates elements of 1960s soul, beat music, surf music, power pop, hardcore punk and psychedelia.
Readers are going to scratch their heads and think: "Wait a minute..., a garage punk genre that had a golden age in 1965-1967, but that emerged out of garage rock and punk rock (i.e 70s punk)? What?" It isn't going to make sense. I know what it is supposed to mean, but most people won't. It's disconcerting. Garagepunk66 (talk) 04:53, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
In June 2016, you had already been warned that Scaruffi's website could not be used as a source in any capacity 1. This is 2nd and last warning. If you use that source again, an administrator will be contacted. Woovee (talk) 22:54, 24 November 2016 (UTC)
Woovee, I simply forgot about that site. I deal with thousands of sources in the many articles I work on--it is unrealistic to expect me to remember, though I'll try my best. At the time I made that edit, I was just trying to get more sources for the Soul Music article as a way of helping out, which I thought would be a good deed. I didn't realize that I was stepping onto a land mine. I'm sorry. However, I don't think an editor operating in good faith should face punitive measures, say when accidently using a bad source. The solution to when an editor accidently puts in a bad source, is to simply remove the citation (and, of course, kindly mention it to the editor). But, a well-intentioned editor should not have to face reprisals for making an innocent mistake. Administrative action should not be an issue for something that is not disruptive or badly-intended. I just to do my job as an editor and offer my time generously to help out here. We all make mistakes. Garagepunk66 (talk) 00:41, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
@Woovee:And that administrator would probably tell you to lighten up a bit. Furthermore, Wikipedia doesn't do "second and last warning" for simple mistakes like these. WP:AGF. Thanks, Yintan05:43, 25 November 2016 (UTC)(Sorry for butting in on your Talk, Garagepunk66, but I felt a strong need to do so.)
Do you know how the notification system works? yes you do.
The next time you entertain yourself to discuss me at least spell my name right and do me the courtesy of a WP:MENTION, because it is one of the common courtesy triggers. (you may do it like this...) [[User:Fylbecatulous]]. You talk about me, you let me know. I would prefer if you just get back to editing and leave all the soapy crying alone. Your continually reverting these archived discussions and REDACTING them to suit your latest whim is annoying enough, but please stop talking about me in new ways. I am no longer on the Garage rock pages. Leave me off yours. Thanks in advance. You do not want to meet me back on the articles in need of trimming and splitting with me in a culling frame of mind. Because, I do have experience. All the best and happier editing for you and me. Fylbecatuloustalk18:51, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
Fylbecatulous, I appreciate you contacting me here, because this hopefully can be constructive opportunity to create a positive dialogue. I was engaged in a personal conversation with another editor at this page, and I erased the conversation out of respect to his and my privacy (but I do realize that there is no perfect privacy at Wikipedia). I was not aware of rule that an editor ping another before mentioning, but I am glad you told me. I will do that from now on. I actually considered pinging you in those conversations, but I didn't think that you would have wanted me to solicit your participation--I had tried to contact you on your talk page and got the feeling that it would not be welcome. But, let me say this: I'm sorry for mentioning you. I am also sorry for anything I said in the GR thread that may have angered you. I'll be the first to admit that I shouldn't have made the little "quip" there--I now regret it--I shouldn't have done it. I wish I could go back and undo that mistake. Please forgive me. I also want to tell you how much I appreciated your locating the archive. When you came into the conversation at the Garage rock article, I had never met you before--and I would not have wished a bad thing for you in a thousand lifetimes, not then or now. At first I couldn't understand why you felt I presumed ownership, but I can now see that a previous comment I made may have made it appear that way--I cannot pretend that I haven't been highly invested in the article. Id say, that, for the most part, it has been a joy to work on it--if that wasn't the case then I wouldn't have gotten involved. But, it has turned out to be more time-consuming and fraught with twists and turns than I anticipated. And, I can't deny that when one has put that much time into a project, they're going to get worried if they see something come along that seems contrary to the good of the article. In the debate there, I felt that the initial proposal was just too extreme--and that got me on the edge. And, there were prior issues going on in other articles and places that preceded the Garage rock discussion, so that may have colored my perceptions. But, I now realize that I may have contributed to the tension, which was not a good thing, so I apologize. I want to assure you that I do not have any intentions of ownership. I just want to see the best for the article. I heard everyone loud and clear that the article needs to be trimmed in size and that it needs a lot less citations, so I've gotten to work on that (I promise that your scroll key will turn out alright). I am currently having conversations with several editors seeking advise. As for you, I am sorry that we did not get off on the right footing. So, I'd like to take this opportunity to mend fences and get on a better track. Garagepunk66 (talk) 02:30, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
herding cats...
Did you read WP:REDACT? Now that I have responded to your essay, it is uncourteous for you to revise your text unless you use the open methods listed. I assume in good faith this was another of the practises of courtesy you are unaware of. Thank you for pinging me. Here, have a cat herd. ツ Our fences can be mended but we will be like the proverbial herd of cats teaming up to keep it in good repair. All this talk? What ever happened to just editing articles and leaving edit summaries? I practically have conversations in mine...I really see nothing else to say. You are still stuck on ownership and the brexit quip. I loved the brexit one actually and could turn it to humour with Chief Mouser. I understand having pride in articles. I bet you do not know I have a life on Simple English Wikipedia and have explained some very complex articles and ideas in a simple way. I have even put some finishing touches on your article Garage rock. But as I have said on my talk page there, I do not mind when any of my edits are changed, overturned or critisised. So I am happy we have had this chat. Peace. Fylbecatuloustalk15:45, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
We now have 808 New Page Reviewers! Most of you requested the user right to be able to do something about the huge backlog. Now it's time for action. Mid July to 01 Oct 2016
If each reviewer does only 10 reviews a day over five days, the backlog will be down to zero and the daily input can then be processed by each reviewer doing only 2 or 3 reviews a day - that's about 5 minutes work!
Let's get that over and done with in time to relax for the holidays.
Second set of eyes
Not only are New Page Reviewers the guardians of quality of new articles, they are also in a position to ensure that pages are being correctly tagged for deletion and maintenance and that new authors are not being bitten. This is an important feature of your work. Read about it at the new Monitoring the system section in the tutorial.
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Hello, you added Stud to Devatop Centre for Africa Development. Please can you make the necessary correction, and remove the Stub
Wikinaija (talk) 18:23, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
The Kitchen Cinq
An IP added some unsourced info to the page recently. It looks like it is correct, but I did not check. I thought you would like to know because at the moment it is unsourced and you have a (good) habit of making sure every fact is backed up. If you are busy, I can probably find a reference for it if it is notable enough for the article.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 18:37, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
I've been busy. I did a locate on the IP and it comes from the Netherlands. When I get some time--we can both check everything. There is a possibility that someone connected with Hans Kestaloo may have done the edits (I hope), but I have no way of knowing. Garagepunk66 (talk) 20:30, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Binksternet -- Binksternet (talk) 14:40, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
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; see Talk:The Wrecking Crew (music) for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can nominate it to appear in Did you know. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Binksternet -- Binksternet (talk) 15:41, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
