User talk:Albertatiran/sandbox

GA Review

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Reviewer: Cplakidas (talk · contribs) 16:03, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Will gladly take this on, but it will be likely a few days before I can devote enough time. Constantine ✍ 16:03, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

It is reasonably well written.
a. (prose, spelling, and grammar):

b. (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a. (reference section):

b. (citations to reliable sources):

c. (OR):

d. (copyvio and plagiarism):
It is broad in its coverage.
a. (major aspects):

b. (focused):
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a. (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales):

b. (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall:
Pass/fail:

(Criteria marked are unassessed)

To save time, I will be doing some minor copyedits straight away. Feel free to challenge them if they appear unreasonable.

Lede and infobox

There is a recently adopted guideline, MOS:CALLIGRAPHY, concerning calligraphic representations of names; the consensus is that unless these are images with some inherent notability (e.g. the panels in the Hagia Sophia), they should be removed.

We have now removed the infobox image.

tenth of the Twelve Imams add 'of Twelver Shia Islam' here or something like 'succeeding his father, Muhammad al-Jawad (d. 835), as leader of the Imamite Shia.'

This was changed to tenth Imam in Twelver Shia

kept aloof from politics in Medina not clear if it is meant that he kept aloof from politics in Medina, or he kept aloof from politics (by staying) in Medina. And please link political quietism in Islam here.

This was changed to As with most of his predecessors, he kept aloof from politics until he was summoned from his hometown of Medina around 848 CE to the capital Samarra... This was initially linked to political quietism in Islam but I removed the link because of a comment I received from Ghazaalch to the effect that there is evidence the Shia Imams didn't revolt because they didn't have enough support. That is, they were forced to withdraw from politics rather than the article's description of the religiously-motivated withdrawal from political affairs or skepticism that mere mortals can establish a true Islamic government. Here is also a similar statement from our article on Ja'far al-Sadiq, the sixth Shia Imam. In contrast, similar to his father and his grandfather, al-Sadiq adopted a quiescent attitude and kept aloof from politics. He viewed the imamate and caliphate as separate institutions until such time that God would make the Imam victorious. The emphasis is mine.

I think once the distinction between CE and AH dates is made clear, it is not necessary to repeat CE constantly, especially since it is assumed that in an English-language encyclopedia, any date without a marker will be a CE date, as e.g. the regnal dates or death dates (conversely, all Hijri dates should be marked as such).

Done! This comment was also applied to Muhammad al-Jawad.

towards Shia hmmm, perhaps 'towards the Shia'? It might also be worth (but completely optional) distinguishing throughout the article between 'the Shia' as a movement and 'Shiites' (rather than 'Shias') as adherents of the Shia

To show his (documented) hostility towards the adherents (rather than the religion itself), this was changed to known for his hostility towards Shias. As for 'Shiite', Google Dictionary defines 'Shia' as both a noun (to describe an adherent) and an adjective. I highly prefer 'Shia' over 'Shiite' for obvious reasons and the former is becoming increasingly more common on Wikipedia. With that in mind, I found no instances in the article where the distinction between 'Shia' (as the religion) and 'Shias' (its adherents) is unclear.

religious affairs of Imamite Shias suggestion to remove 'Imamite' here, if you haven't used it before, as it is a new and unknown term for the average reader. Simply 'religious affairs of the Shia community' or 'of his followers'.

Done! This was changed to religious affairs of the Shia community.

though an exception is al-Shaykh al-Mufid (d. 1022) 'with the notable exception of al-Shaykh al-Mufid (d. 1022)'?

Done!

The majority of his followers the last person mentioned is al-Shaykh al-Mufid, so 'The majority of al-Hadi's followers...' or something similar

After reshuffling the content in the lede (as suggested in the next comment), this change is now unnecessary.

link Sunni, clarify that Samarra is in modern Iraq for context. I would also move the part about his tomb to the end of the lede.

Done! This was moved to the end and changed to the al-Askari shrine in Samarra, located in modern-day Iraq, houses...

Titles

according to the Islamicist Shona F. Wardrop, who adds that is unnecessary; this is not an opinion, and the fact is referenced.

Done! This sentence was changed to He was also known as al-Mutawakkil (Arabic: المتوكل على الله, lit. 'he who relies on God'), but this title was perhaps rarely used to avoid confusion with the Abbasid caliph al-Mutawakkil.

Is there a special significance to the name Abu'l-Hasan apart from being his kunya? Then this should be explained

Probably no, to the best of my knowledge.

These two are cited in Shia sources as Abu al-Hasan, the first, and Abu al-Hasan, the second, respectively this can be omitted entirely IMO, or shortened to '...who are also known by the name Abu al-Hasan'. The numbering is pretty clear from the sequence.

This sentence was removed per your comment.

Birth

sometime after 215 AH suggest using CE dates here

Done! 215 AH overlaps with 830 and 831, so this was changed to sometime after 830...

to perform Hajj 'to perform the Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca' or similar

We followed your suggestion here.

Ithbat is an early collective biography of the Shia Imams, but its attribution to al-Mas'udi is not certain Would recommend merging this into the previous sentence: 'As for his birthplace, the Ithbat al-wassiya, a collective biography of the Shia imams attributed to the historian al-Mas'udi (d. 956), differs from the prevalent view...' or similar

To address your comment, we merged the sentence in question with its previous sentences as follows. As for his birthplace, the Shia-leaning historian al-Mas'udi (d. 956) differs from the prevalent view. Ithbat al-wassiya, a collective biography of the Shia Imams attributed to him, reports that...

Reign of al-Mu'tasim

is father al-Jawad and his wife which wife?

Following your comment, this was changed to ...his father al-Jawad and his wife Umm al-Fadl traveled to...

latter source better spell out that it is the Dala'il al-im'ama

Done!

guardianship of caretakers I assume appointed by al-Mu'tasim? If so, then clarify.

The guardians were appointed apparently by one Umar ibn al-Faraj al-Rukhaji, an Abbasid official. To clarify, we changed the sentence as follows. After the death of his father, the young Ali was likely kept by the Abbasids under the guardianship of caretakers hostile to the Shia cause.

of the Imams decapitalize throughout, unless you refer to the Twelve Imams as a group, or to 'the Imam' as an alternative to 'al-Hadi'

Your proposal is correct and we agree with you. In this case, Muhammad ibn Faraj, a trusted associate of the Imams,... specifically refers to the Shia Imams contemporary to Muhammad. We have changed this to Muhammad ibn Faraj, a trusted associate of the previous Shia Imams,... Elsewhere in the article, there are currently no instances where 'Imam' does not refer to one of the Twelve Imams.

which is a seventeenth collection 'which is' is redundant

We followed your suggestion. This part now reads Bihar, a seventeenth-century collection of Shia hadiths...

hostility to Shia per above, either 'to the Shia' or 'to Shias/Shiites', depending on what is meant

In view of our response above, this was changed to hostility to Shias.

Reign of al-Wathiq

ascension 'accession'?

We followed your suggestion here (but probably 'ascension' is also ok).

... and Alids received stipends, according to the early historian Abu al-Faraj al-Isfahani (d. 967).[29] Alids are the descendants of Ali ibn Abi Talib (d. 661)... To avoid the repetition, perhaps '...and, according to the early historian Abu al-Faraj al-Isfahani (d. 967), stipends were given to the Alids,[29] the descendants of Ali ibn Abi Talib (d. 661)...'? Also, add here that Ali was the first Shia imam.

Following your comment, this was changed to The Shia community was relatively free in this period, and the early historian Abu al-Faraj al-Isfahani (d. 967) reports that stipends were given to the Alids, that is, the descendants of Ali ibn Abi Talib (d. 661), the first Shia Imam.

Was Ibrahim ibn Mahziyar al-Ahwazi a Shia partisan? In what capacity did he visit al-Hadi?

Good point. This was changed to An account by Ibrahim ibn Mahziyar al-Ahwazi describes a visit to Ali al-Hadi in 228 AH (842-3) to deliver some goods, accompanied by his brother Ali. The two brothers were trusted associates of al-Jawad.

The understanding of Wardrop is awkward; e.g. 'According to the Islamicist Shona F. Wardrop, this may be an indication of the young Ali beginning to renew links with the loyal followers of his father, al-Jawad'

We followed your suggestion here.

ascension of Ja'far al-Mutawakkil (r. 847–861) again, 'accession', and clarigy Mutawakkil's relationship to Wathiq

To address your comment, this part was rewritten as follows. An account in Ithbat from this period might show the political awareness of the young Ali, even though it has been given a miraculous aspect in some other sources. This account is dated 232 AH (846-7) and narrated by a servant in the court of al-Wathiq, named Khayran al-Khadim, whom Ali al-Hadi inquires about the caliph's health. Khayran tells him that al-Wathiq is dying, adding that the general view is that he would be succeeded by his son. Ali, however, correctly predicts the accession of the caliph's brother Ja'far al-Mutawakkil (r. 847–861).

First sections, will do the rest tomorrow. Constantine ✍ 20:34, 3 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reign of al-Mutawakkil

I suggest breaking up the large paragraphs into smaller ones. Walls of text do not encourage readers.

Agreed. This was done throughout the article wherever a paragraph could be broken without breaking its flow.

anyone who defamed the companions or the wives of the prophet. for the average reader, the relevance of this to al-Hadi won't be apparent.

Good point. This was changed as follows and we also added a citation for the new claim at the end. The caliph is said to have imposed the penalty of death by flagellation on anyone who defamed the companions or the wives of the prophet, some of whom are viewed negatively in Shia.

Several localities are mentioned here which will be unknown to most readers. May I suggest including a map like File:Iraq Ninth Century.png here?

This is a good idea. This map and a more detailed map of the area near Samarra were added to the article.

I guess that the Abna mentioned here is most likely not a locality, but the abna al-dawla?

Nice. It makes sense :) The sentence was changed as follows. The caliph also created a new army, known as Shakiriyya, which recruited from anti-Alid areas, such as Syria, al-Jazira (Upper Mesopotamia), al-Jabal, Hejaz, and from the Abna, a pro-Abbasid ethnic group.

Does al-Jarjara'i have a full name?

I'm sure he does :) but the source doesn't bother with it. He is probably Ahmad ibn al-Khasib al-Jarjara'i, which has been added to the article.

Can Abd Allah ibn Muhammad be identified? If he is notable (likely, as governor) he should at least be WP:REDLINKed

His full name is apparently Abd Allah ibn Muhammad ibn Dawud Hashemi, according to Madelung. A (red) link was added for this full name.

official in charge of both prayer and war I am pretty certain that this is simply a poetic description of the governor's office. An amir was primarily a military commander, and leading the community to prayer was his most important public/ritual function.

You're very likely correct. However, the source (Wardrop) doesn't describe him as the governor, but rather as the guy in charge of prayer and war. As an alternative solution, I removed the sentence altogether. This part now reads as follows. It was during the caliphate of al-Mutawakkil that the governor of Medina, Abd Allah ibn Muhammad, wrote to the caliph and warned him about the subversive activities of al-Hadi, claiming that he had concealed arms and books for his followers. Alternatively, the Ithbat attributes the affair to Burahya al-Abbasi, the leader of prayers in Medina, who may have advised the caliph to remove al-Hadi from the city because he was allegedly agitating against the caliph.

not far from Baghdad is rather inaccurate: Samarra was 130km north of the old capital, after all...

To address your comment, this was revised after consulting the source. Now it reads as follows. ...but requested that he with his family relocate to the new Abbasid capital of Samarra, a garrison town where the Turkish guards were stationed, north of Baghdad.

and Kitab al-Kafi. The latter source is a comprehensive collection again, better continue the sentence, '...and Kitab al-Kafi, a comprehensive collection...'

Done! This now reads as follows. ...and is recorded in Kitab al-Irshad and Kitab al-Kafi, a comprehensive collection of Shia hadiths by the prominent Twelver scholar Muhammad ibn Ya'qub al-Kulayni (d. 941).

he was received warmly by the governor since this was Ishaq ibn Ibrahim al-Mus'abi, who is mentioned further down (as "al-Tahiri"), please introduce him here.

Good point. Now this sentence reads as follows. When al-Hadi approached Baghdad, people gathered to see him and he was received warmly by the governor, Ishaq ibn Ibrahim al-Tahiri, who rode out of the city to welcome him.

Shari' (lit. 'street') Abi Ahmad is the full Arabic name important?

No! To address your comment, this was changed as follows. More specifically, his residence was in the center of the city on Abi Ahmad street.

Muslim scholar occurs twice, and doesn't tell us much. Are these people historians or theologians? If the latter, pro-Sunni or pro-Shia partisans?

Following your suggestion, these instances were replaced by 'Muslim academic'. I think it is to be contrasted with 'Western Islamicist'.

Reigns of al-Muntasir (r. 861–862), al-Musta'in (r. 862–866), and al-Mu'tazz (r. 866–869)

the section title is unwieldy, recommend something shorter, perhaps 'Later yeas (861–868)'?

We followed your advice.

Muhammad ibn Hajar was killed missing context here. Who was this and what is the relationship to al-Hadi? It is mentioned after, but it makes for puzzlement until one gets there. Generally there is a tendency to contextualize things after they are mentioned. You should avoid this.

To address your comment, the sentence was rewritten as follows. Also in Egypt, a follower of al-Hadi by the name of Muhammad ibn Hajar was killed and the estate of another follower, Saif ibn al-Layth, was confiscated by the ruler, according to al-Kulayni.

Death

ascribed to al-Rida it would be helpful to remind the reader that al-Rida was al-Hadi's father

We added the following similar statement: A similar tradition is ascribed to al-Rida, the eighth of the Twelve Imams,...

paid allegiance should probably be linked to Bay'ah

Done!

named al-Muwaffaq (d. 891) he is famous enough that 'named' can be omitted; as a rule of thumb, if somebody is not just an hapax legomenon, let alone if there is an article about them, then 'named' is redundant.

To address this comment, the sentence was rewritten as follows. The funeral prayer is said to have been led by al-Muwaffaq (d. 891), a brother of the caliph.

Introduce Naser al-Din Shah Qajar as ruler of Persia and a Twelver

Done! This sentence now reads, More recently, the complex was rebuilt in 1868-9 at the request of Naser al-Din Shah Qajar (r. 1848–1896), ruler of Persia and a Twelver, and the golden dome was added in 1905.

his son, Hasan al-Askari last person mentioned was Naser al-Din Shah Qajar

{blue|To fix this issue, this sentence was rewritten as follows.}} In addition to al-Hadi, the shrine also houses the tombs of his son, Hasan al-Askari...

the shrine was bombed in February 2006 by whom?

Apparently no one claimed responsibility for the attack but the Iraqi officials blamed al-Qaeda. This part now reads as follows. As an important destination for Shia pilgrimage, the shrine was bombed in February 2006 and badly damaged. Another attack on 13 June 2007 destroyed the two minarets of the shrine. Iraqi authorities hold the Sunni extremist group al-Qaeda responsible for both attacks.

Personal traits

Introduce Dwight M. Donaldson

Done! This now reads, The historian Dwight M. Donaldson...

Hmmm, I would recommend a slight rewrite in this section to emphasize that all these stories are told by later, and mostly partisan, sources about him. We don't actually know his personal traits, only what his followers wanted us to know (or invented wholesale).

I have done my best to clarify this. The paragraph repeatedly (excessively, really) uses phrases like 'Shia sources' or 'Twelver sources' and emphasizes repeatedly that what's given is the image of al-Hadi as portrayed in Shia sources. Following your comment, I checked the sources and made some changes to the paragraph. It is also important to note that persecution and oppression by the Sunni majority is the ever-present theme in Shia history.

Will do the remainder tomorrow. Constantine ✍ 20:12, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Imamate

precedent of al-Jawad, however explain what precedent this is

This refers to the imamate of al-Jawad as a minor, which is hopefully clear from the previous sentence: As with his father, Ali al-Hadi was still a minor when he succeeded to the imamate at the age of about seven. Thanks to the precedent of al-Jawad, however, the imamate of Ali was widely accepted without much demur,...

Muslim jurist per above, this is not sufficient introduction (e.g. Iranian jurist or Iranian expert on Islamic law)

Done! From his Wikipedia article, he is now introduced as, For the Muslim jurist and academic Hoessin Modarresi, the account of his succession suggests that the seniority of Ali over his brother was not sufficient and the Shia community had to be convinced that Ali was directly appointed by his father.

A few of the known agents of al-Hadi are listed below. what is the criterion for inclusion?

These were introduced by our sources and so they are 'noteworthy' in that sense. Wardrop also has an index of key figures at the end of her thesis that lists some (all?) of these agents. If the list is too long, then we can remove some of them...

Link Occultation, gold dinars

Done!

is the eschatological Mahdi who is now concealed from the public 'now' may be ambiguous; perhaps 'has been concealed from the public since 874 and is expected to return as the eschatological Mahdi' or similar?

We used your suggestion with a slightly different wording: ...both about occultation, which is the Twelver belief that al-Askari has a son Muhammad, who has been concealed from the public since 874 and would return as the eschatological Mahdi at the end of time.

Miracles

Most of these miracles are mentioned earlier, under the biographical section (e.g. the foretelling of Mutawakkil's death or the soldiers not killing him). Since I think we can agree that these are stories reported after the fact to highlight his divine inspiration, I strongly recommend removing them from the prior section; a short note to the effect that many miracles are attributed to him during e.g. during his confinement in Samarra is enough.

Listed below are the miraculous accounts in the bio.

Among others, multiple accounts in Ithbat and Dala'il al-im'ama show Ali supernaturally alert the very moment his father died.
Also dated 861, the biographical al-Khara'ij by the Twelver scholar Qutb al-Din al-Rawandi (d. 1178) similarly reports a house arrest of al-Hadi under Sa'id al-Hajib, who was allegedly ordered to kill the Imam. This time a visitor finds al-Hadi seated next to an open grave in his house but is reassured by him that he would not be harmed because al-Mutawakkil would die shortly.
Bihar reports that al-Mutawakkil temporarily forbade his staff from serving al-Hadi, advised by a relative nicknamed Harisa, who warned the caliph that this was boosting the political image of al-Hadi among people. The report has a miraculous ending with the caliph abandoning his policy after an unexpected breeze blew the curtains open for al-Hadi instead of the guards.

The only overlap between the bio and 'Miracles' seems to be #2 above in the bio, a summary of which appears in 'Miracles' (Ali al-Hadi is also credited in Twelver sources with predicting the death of al-Mutawakkil, who had either imprisoned or humiliated al-Hadi.) But I also have to disagree with the proposal that the miraculous reports are fabricated. True, some of them are exaggerated. Still, they can't be ignored. From our article: Wardrop stresses that, while many of these reports might be exaggerated, they are likely based on truth and unwise to ignore [in the bio]. Her view (very roughly) is that it was probably difficult for Shias to see their imam defenseless against the tyrant of his time and so some historical accounts were probably embellished with miraculous details to show that the tyrant gets his fair share already in this world. That is to say that the few miraculous accounts in the bio are not totally out of place. On a more personal note, I don't find many of these attributed miracles difficult to believe, like occasionally predicting the future, speaking multiple languages, or showing a certain vision to others. Similar deeds are commonly attributed to Muslim saints.

who is commonly known by the title al-Askari (lit. 'military') on account of his almost life-long detention under close surveillance in the garrison town of Samarra,[4][148] after moving there with his father as a child.[148] has already been repeated in the beginning, and is not that relevant here. What is noteworthy is that

This was probably left unfinished :)

might have compelled Hasan is the conjecture here that this might be the reason why Hasan wrote these letters, or that he may have written letters to that effect?

It's the latter. To address your comment, this part is now rewritten as follows. Still, some considered al-Hadi to be the last Imam, and Hasan is said to have written to Imamite figures across the Abbasid empire to dispel their doubts about his imamate.

Succession

Have made some copyedits to tighten prose, feel free to revert/discuss

Thanks. That's always welcome.

are these the same as the Muhammadites? Even if not, should this not be mentioned along with them, rather than here? The whole episode of Fari's challenge to al-Hadi is also something that might be mentioned as an episode of its own earlier in the article.

About those certain subgroups of the Ja'farites, it seems that they were not part of the Muhammadite movement. They apparently believed that Muhammad was the true successor of al-Hadi during his lifetime and that the former (rather than the latter) appointed Ja'far as his successor before he died (during the lifetime of al-Hadi). This makes very little sense and it looks like they had other motives (financial, political, etc.) for rejecting Hasan al-Askari. This part of the text is now rewritten as follows:

At the same time, some followers of Faris ibn Hatim claimed that the successor of al-Hadi was his son Muhammad, who appointed his brother as the next Imam before his death during the lifetime of al-Hadi. They accordingly accepted the imamate of Ja'far instead of al-Askari. This was apparently an act of defiance to al-Askari, who had sided with his father al-Hadi when he excommunicated his erstwhile agent Faris for embezzling religious dues and openly inciting against him.

To address your comment about moving up the material about Faris, I've added a new bullet to the list of his agents:

Faris ibn Hatim ibn Mahawayh al-Qazvini was initially a representative of al-Hadi and his intermediary with the Imamites living in the Jibal (lit. 'mountains'), the region encompassing the central and western parts of modern-day Iran. Faris was involved in a dispute with Ali ibn Ja'far around 248 AH (862) and was consequently banned by al-Hadi from receiving alms on his behalf. He continued to do so, however, without forwarding them to al-Hadi, who excommunicated Faris in 250 AH (864) for embezzling religious dues. Later when Faris continued to openly incite against al-Hadi, the latter called for his death, and he was indeed assassinated during the imamate of Hasan al-Askari.

Works

Khums (Islamic alms, lit. 'one-fifth') has already been glossed

Done! We removed the description of Khums there.

sultan I assume that here it is meant in the original sense as 'government', rather than the royal title? Then I would translate it as such.

The source is silent but it's probably meant as 'Muslim ruler' here. In the revision, 'sultan' was replaced with 'ruler'.

Sources

All are high quality RS, and a consistent and clear citation format is used
Haven't yet had time to do a copyvio spotcheck, will do at the earliest opportunity.

Sounds good. Thanks!

Other remarks

As pointed out above, try to split up the large blocks of text into paragraphs. The article is already very dense with information.

We have made some effort in the revision to address your concern.

Optional: keep the AH dates only for the birth, death, and succession dates. Elsewhere use CE.

We followed your suggestion except for the inaccurate dates like this one: One of the many such accounts about al-Hadi is narrated by Ibrahim ibn Mahziyar, who describes a meeting with a young al-Hadi in 228 AH (842-3)...

Optional: consider if you can include the lone footnote into the main text

I managed to successfully remove the footnote by adding just one word to the main text.

@Albertatiran and Ghazaalch: A very comprehensive article, very well referenced and well written. I worry a bit about overloading the proverbial 'average reader' with information, but I cannot fault your effort here, the transformation of this article is spectacular. Constantine ✍ 21:22, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Cplakidas, many thanks for your time and the feedback. We'll work to address them. Albertatiran (talk) 07:43, 7 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Cplakidas! Thanks again for the excellent feedback. Our point-by-point response (in blue and turquoise) is added above. In nearly all cases, we followed your suggestions as it's clear that they improve the article. A couple of general notes:

In some places you added the article 'the' to book titles, e.g., the Ithbat. This made sense and I initially followed the practice elsewhere in the article but then realized that it might be problematic (?), see here.
The article refers to two persons named Ishaq ibn Ibrahim. One is the governor of Baghdad and the other is the governor of an area in central or western Iran. It's not clear from the corresponding sources if these two are the same person. I thought I'd bring this to your attention just in case you have heard this name before. Albertatiran (talk) 12:32, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]