Talk:Veganism

"particularly in diet"

I know this has been discussed a hundred times but... this isn't a dictionary, this is an encyclopedia. It's ok for a dictionary to reflect how people misuse words, but an encyclopedia should reflect what the word actually means. As I dig deeper all I can see is that The Vegan Society never defined veganism as a diet. They always defined it as a philosophy. Countryboy603 (talk) 17:03, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

It wasn't originally defined as a philosophy, vegan back then just meant "non-dairy vegetarian". Watson's first definition of veganism in 1945 was very simple, "the practice of living on fruits, nuts, vegetables, grains, and other wholesome non-animal products". Veganism as a philosophy was first defined by Leslie Cross in 1951. It's both a diet and a philosophy. Over time it was turned into a philosophy. Most vegans today consider it a philosophy. Nothing wrong with that they can call it what they want, but we can't deny diet has been an important factor. Psychologist Guy (talk) 19:18, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

You are correct, wikipedia is misrepresenting veganism, by suggesting that it is mainly dietary. The usage of "particularly in diet" is completely incorrect.

The correct definition is: "Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals" ~ The Vegan Society

The wikipedia definition has been incorrect for many years, and they do not appear to allow the page to be corrected. This would have been pointed out to wikipedia many times. After many years of donations, they will not be receiving any more of my money. Begenuine8 (talk) 02:04, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Your definition of veganism is incorrect, and misleading, it has been this way for years, and there is no doubt this has been pointed out to you many times, yet it remains incorrect. Why is this? Veganism is not a diet.

The term veganism was coined by The Vegan Society, their definition is not up for dispute

"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals." Begenuine8 (talk) 02:08, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

The Vegan Society definition of veganism changed many times in the past. Their original definition of veganism in 1945 was "the practice of living on fruits, nuts, vegetables, grains, and other wholesome non-animal products" [1]. The claims about veganism being a philosophy came years later.

The line on the article "Veganism is the practice of abstaining from the use of animal products—particularly in diet—and an associated philosophy that rejects the commodity status of animals", is accurate per the sourcing. Psychologist Guy (talk) 11:48, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok, here is my suggestion for a lead sentence that reflects this without downplaying the other aspects of the lifestyle: "Veganism is the practice of abstaining from the use of animal products and the consumption of animal source foods — and an associated philosophy that rejects the commodity status of animals." If a reliable source is needed, I would suggest this one: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC11016330/

What do you think? --Countryboy603 (talk) 22:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Cureus has a poor academic reception and has been accused of predatory publishing. I doubt many would agree the source qualifies as a good WP:RS. Psychologist Guy (talk) 22:30, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok, here's another source: https://www.academia.edu/3641785/Resisting_the_Globalization_of_Speciesism_Vegan_Abolitionism_as_a_Site_of_Consumer_Based_Social_Change

Is this a reliable source?

Countryboy603 (talk) 18:47, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Looks good to me.IWannaBeSedated24 (talk) 03:02, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

FYI the modern vegan society definition is already cited on the article in the "definition" section [2] Psychologist Guy (talk) 12:01, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

FYI the contemporary definition of veganism, which has not changed in many years, is the definition that this article should commence with. Anything else is a deliberate misrepresentation of the truth. Veganism is not a diet, vegetarianism is, they are two completely different things. Begenuine8 (talk) 12:07, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Your profile on wikipedia clearly states your bias, as a vegetarian you should remove yourself from any, and all interactions with vegan pages. Wikipedia should be treating them as completely different subjects, since they are.

Your claim of "objectivity" is a mockery to the premise of Wikipedia. Your sole interest is to pretend that vegetarianism is ethical, deliberately contriving similarities with veganism, and grouping the two together at every opportunity. It is a wonder you do not boast about blocking the correction of this page on your profile, there is still some room for more boasting... Begenuine8 (talk) 12:15, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Your account is likely to be blocked if you continue with that because you are far too aggressive and are making personal attacks. It's not worth responding to your false allegations and misinformation. I founded WP:VV. We already have a definition section of veganism on the article and a lead that is well sourced. WP:CON if you want your suggestions to be added to the article, but doubtful because we have already had this discussion many times before. Check the archives. Psychologist Guy (talk) 12:50, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Begenuine8 has been indef blocked for making personal attacks. If any other users want to continue this discussion make sure to suggest good WP:RS. As noted already in the "Definition" section of the article, we do cite the Vegan Society's modern definition of veganism. Psychologist Guy (talk) 15:46, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

lack of criticism page

If Veganism is to be seen as a philosophy then they’re must be a page dedicated to criticism. This isn’t due to the philosophy being “wrong” however the page currently presents this particular idea as being unfalsifiable thus unable to be disputed. 2601:201:8E00:8740:180:C03A:A7B3:F4C9 (talk) 12:44, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

"Must be" only if there are sufficient reliable sources on the matter. Provide them. YBSOne (talk) 12:53, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Personal health benefits

I don't think it's accurate to say someone may practice veganism for personal health benefits. If this person doesn't have any other reason for eating vegan, what's stopping them from buying shampoo that contains animal ingredients or buying leather? Someone may adopt a diet that's coincidentally vegan for personal health benefits, but that's not the same thing as practicing veganism. 2001:5B0:4DD3:6908:E017:F7D7:D232:3C6F (talk) 03:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Please read the FAQ at the top of this page EvergreenFir (talk) 06:19, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 January 2025

CHANGE

"Early vegetarians included Indian philosophers such as Parshavnatha, Mahavira, Acharya Kundakunda, Umaswati, Samantabhadra, and Valluvar; the Indian emperors Chandragupta Maurya and Ashoka."

...

"Greek philosophers such as Empedocles, Theophrastus, Plutarch, Plotinus, and Porphyry; and the Roman poet Ovid and the playwright Seneca the Younger.[<dummy_src>][<dummy_src>]

TO

"Early vegetarians included Indian philosophers such as Parshavnatha, Mahavira, Acharya Kundakunda, Umaswati, Samantabhadra, and Valluvar; the Indian emperors Chandragupta Maurya and Ashoka."

...

"Greek philosophers such as Empedocles, Theophrastus, Plutarch, Plotinus, and Porphyry, along with the Roman poet Ovid and the playwright Seneca the Younger, are often cited as vegetarians or proponents of vegetarianism."

 Done I moved the reference to its correct spot and tidied up the grammar a bit. Thanks for your help. DrOrinScrivello (talk) 23:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

References

Historical Background Reverted Edit

@Foristslow, why did you revert my edit [3]? As written, that section is incoherent and contradicts the cited source [4]. My edit fixes those problems. If you have an issue with something specific, is there a more targeted change you could make? Carleas (talk) 11:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Hello, apologies for not leaving a reason my editor was playing up. There was no real improvement.If you wish to make a edit in the future please get consensus on the talk page as this page is semi protected.Thanks keep up the good work. Foristslow (talk) 11:51, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Can you say more? The current version of the page does not reflect the sources cited in support; my edit does. The current version of the page is also incoherent in places ("the language's polymorphic nature denotes a path or journey that differs only by subjective consciousness"). Fixing those are "real improvement".

Consensus isn't required before making an edit (see WP:BOLD). In any case, please address the substance of my edit. Carleas (talk) Carleas (talk) 13:51, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Hello, thankyou for your reply, the page is a semi protected page the section that you have edited has had several editor contributions. It is important to express the nature of the Chinese language to the English reader for context. The practice of abstinence from consumption of animal products and the relationship with particularly pureland Buddhism as it is the largest form of Buddhism practiced in east Asia. As I have said before your edit has not added value as it is not about the etymology of the character but about Veganism. Foristslow (talk) 02:01, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree that "In the Chinese language, veganism and vegetarianism share the same initial interpretation and character, as the language's polymorphic nature denotes a path or journey that differs only by subjective consciousness" is confusing. I don't understand what is being conveyed in that sentence. I asked other people to read it and they didn't understand it either. Is 'https://www.chinavegans.org/news/how-do-you-say-vegan-in-chinese' the source for this? If so, I agree that the sentence doesn't reflect the information in the source.

I think that Carleas's edit was more reflective of the information in the cited article than the sentence in question. I think it would be an improvement to either use their edit or to clarify and clearly cite the information in the sentence. Qutecumber (talk) 02:24, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Thankyou for your reply, agreement on the sentence with path and journey. Removed it, the rest is fine as it is. Thanks Foristslow (talk) 05:22, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The rest is not fine as is, because it contradicts the cited sources. From chinavegans.org[5]:

The most commonly-used word for "vegetarian" or "vegan" in China, which you will see on restaurant signs, menus, food products, and the names of vegan organizations, is 素 (sù) or 素食 (sù shí)

This contradicts the first sentence in that paragraph:

The term "Pure Vegan" or "Pure Buddhist" (Chinese: 纯净素; pinyin: chúnjìngsù) refers to the practice of non-consumption of meat in China.

That source gives a different definition for 纯净素:

纯净素 (chún jìng sù, "pure [Buddhist] vegetarian/vegan"). Focused on cultivating mindfulness as well as abstaining from killing or harming sentient beings, the Buddhist vegan diet is more restrictive than a secular vegan diet. It excludes not only all animal products, but also the "five pungent vegetables" (garlic, onions, shallots, leeks, and chives). This is because these strong-smelling plants are believed to stimulate desire and aggression. (Fun fact: A large proportion of China's vegan population is Buddhist, so the Chinese vegan and plant-based market tends to favor products and restaurants that are free from garlic and onions).

So that term does not refer to "the practice of non-consumption of meat", it refers to a specific religious diet with additional restrictions beyond meat. The article gives multiple other terms that specifically refer to the practice of non-consumption of meat, which I substituted in my edit.

The next sentence says that the "term...predates the Western Zhou Dynasty", but that isn't correct. From the source:

The character 素 was first seen in bronze inscriptions of the Western Zhou Dynasty (1027-771 BCE), but it probably dates back to even earlier.

The difference between "term" and "character" is significant, because the character's meaning has evolved significantly since then, and "term" refers to a word together with its meaning (also note that the source only says the character "probably" predates the Western Zhou Dynasty).

The sources also never reference "Pure Land Buddhism" as far as I can tell, but refer to Buddhism more generally. There is no justification in the source to refer to a specific sub-sect (c.f. Buddhist vegetarianism, which is also not specific to Pure Land Buddhism).

The text as written is not supported by the sources cited, it contradicts the sources cited. It is not "fine as it is". Carleas (talk) 15:11, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Two definitions of veganism

In the following passage, I can't identify the two definitions of veganism (it appears as just one definition). Maybe this could be clarified?

---

Since 1988, The Vegan Society gives two definitions of veganism:

Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.

— The Vegan Society, Definition of veganism, https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism

The first definition by The Vegan Society is accepted among ethical and environmental vegans and the second definition by The Vegan Society is accepted among dietary vegans. Qutecumber (talk) 16:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Two definitions:

1. Way of living which seeks to exclude exploitation of and cruelty to animals for any purpose;
2. Diet which does without all products derived of or from animals.

Does that help, Qutecumber? They are close, i agree, but i think it's fairly clear that there are two definitions which cover two areas or views of life ~ a philosophy of life and a dietary practice ~ Lindsay^Hello 17:47, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Origin/History Section Needs Work

I've added a cleanup tag to the Origin section, which contains a lot of loosely connected information that often doesn't directly to veganism, doesn't distinguish veganism's origin from the origin vegetarianism, or explain how early veganism and early vegetarianism are related. The section should be shorter, leaving longer discussion in History of Vegetarianism, and keeping content specific to the history of veganism on this page. This has been suggested before [6], not sure what came of that discussion.

Tagging users who have contributed to the section and to History of Vegetarianism: @Unionjackrabbit @EiersalatmitGurken @Daniel of Lebanon @Foristslow @OatPowered @DrOrinScrivello @Veg Historian @Blausonorisch Carleas (talk) 19:29, 29 January 2025 (UTC)